Looking for a Warshaper guide

[Noxangelo]

As the title says.

I'm looking for a Warshaper guide but can't seem to find any, do you guys know of any or is the awful wording of the Morphic weapons ability so bad as to make it a fools errand.

[Gruftzwerg]

I don't know any good guides. But this thread about natural weapons (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?286497-101-Natural-Weapons)is the best info to get for the morphic weapon ability. The array of options is really OP (e.g. Umbral Bolt (Black Bolt) Umbral Blot (Blackball): Disintegrating Touch).

Morphic Weapons - RAW:

1. You may change you morphic weapon as you wish. Which contrary means you can't stack natural weapons with sole Morphic Weapons (but you do get the regular amount of claws/tentacles/...).

2. Anything in the "Attack:" line of a monster stack block is defined as either manufactured weapon or natural weapon. It's easy to differentiate if something is either one. Thus anything that ain't a manufactured weapon in that line has to be a natural weapon (and thus legal for Morphic Weapons).

________

Extra Info (if you didn't know it already):

- Combined with a Changeling, you can have your warshaper abilities up all day and don't need to waste "limited use"-abilities to activate em.

- If you get the monk's unarmed strike ability (e.g. monk or swordsage or a prc that gives it explicitly -- Monk's Belt/Tattoo doesn't work here), you can grow "Unarmed Strike(s)". The monk's ability lets it count as natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects (and the ability is an effect). I've used this combo in my Orochimaru build to let him grow his own body out of his snake forms.

_____________

If you have any further questions, I'll try to help.

edit: forgot to include the link..^^

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I don't know any good guides. But this thread about natural weapons (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?286497-101-Natural-Weapons)is the best info to get for the morphic weapon ability. The array of options is really OP (e.g. Umbral Bolt (Black Bolt): Disintegrating Touch).I think you mean umbral blot (blackball), yeah?

[Gruftzwerg]

I think you mean umbral blot (blackball), yeah?

yeah my bad. ^^
Umbral Blot (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/umbralBlot.htm)

[Noxangelo]

Wow, that morphic weapons really is a mess.

so many possible interpretations, could i really use it to make any and all of the weapons on that list? cause thats a long list.

[Gruftzwerg]

Wow, that morphic weapons really is a mess.

so many possible interpretations, could i really use it to make any and all of the weapons on that list? cause thats a long list.

By RAW: Yes, since the ability requires no familiarity, nor has any kind of HD cap. Even unique natural weapons can be replicated. You even copy any kind of special effects (EX, SU...) that is bound to the natural attack (e.g Poison, or how Hydra heads work).

But if I would DM, I would restrict it to at least forms that you are familiar with. Maybe even limit the gains (EX, SU) according to the formchanging abiltiy used. It all depends on the optimization lvl of the other players. You should definitively consult the DM (or maybe even your players if you are the DM) before going all out here. But if your group consists of highly (!) optimized full casters, go for it without thinking twice..^^

[Rebel7284]

Wow, that morphic weapons really is a mess.

so many possible interpretations, could i really use it to make any and all of the weapons on that list? cause thats a long list.

I think that's part of the reason there isn't more written about Warshaper since its signature ability is such a mess and might work completely different from table to table. Of course, it's also in that weird space where entering as a spellcaster, it's often not worth losing the casting progression even with the more broken interpretation since the natural attacks might break encounters, but greater planar binding/etc might break campaigns.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

The Shifter Handbook (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?225294-3-5-The-Shifter-Handbook-(WIP)) has a subsection dedicated to Warshaper, with notes on how good the abilities are for Druids and Changelings in addition to Shifters.

[Wildstag]

I've done a lot with Warshapers in the last few years, but the most I can contribute is that depending on your intended build, different races can help out significantly. Ultimately, any way that gets you the (Shapechanger) subtype by BAB 4 (level 5 entry at the earliest) will help significantly if you want to get the most out of Warshaper at the levels it is most useful. The way I see it, it kinda falls off around the late levels (13-20) unless it's supporting another pillar of the build.

Changelings, Hengeyokai, Shifter, and Tibbits are the options without level adjustment.

In my opinion, the most viable is the Changeling, on account of their permanent transformations, which means you can walk around with Morphic Weapons permanently, albeit with a monstrous appearance.

Hengeyokai are the next most viable in that they have permanent transformations but a limited number of uses per day. The Raccoon Dog is the only subrace with the strength bonus to take full advantage of the warshaper's strengths.

The third and fourth most useful depend on taste, but I'd place Tibbits above Shifters. Admittedly, the cat form isn't particularly strong. On the other hand, you have unlimited uses per day and the transformation is permanent. Because the cat form only subtracts 8 strength (in addition to the -2 strength penalty of the base form), you could end up with a house-cat with a strength bonus. The thought of a swole cat terrorizing low-level wizards just makes me chuckle. A full-bab Tibbit can enter by level 5, and if you start with a high enough strength, you only have a -1 damage penalty. Those wizards won't live long. By level 6, they're dead before they know what hit them. You have a 45% chance of a coup-de-grace just succeeding to kill a sleeping wizard, assuming they have a +2 Con mod.

Shifters are just bad for it though. They have no time to take advantage of Morphic Weapons and they get minimal usage out of the fast healing.

Those are the four core races I know of that can take advantage of the PrC by level 5. There might be one or two others I forgot though.

[Telonius]

One extremely important thing to remember for Warshaper: there's a very important caveat from the book that is usually not copied over in online sources.


Class Features
All of the following are class features of the warshaper prestige class. The features function only when the warshaper is in a form other than her own (which for doppelganger and phasm warshapers is most of the time).

(Added the underlining). So all of the goodies only turn on when you've changed to something other than your base form. That's why the Changeling option is so powerful. You can just change your hair color, or move a freckle, and and you're good to go.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Also to note that the ability mentions the table at page 296 of the Monster Manual, which lists a few natural weapons ("allowing a natural attack that deals the appropriate amount of damage according to the size of the new form (see Table 5–1 on page 296 of the Monster Manual)"). This very strongly implies that not only you should not be able to create an Umbral Blot natural attack, and even if you could, it would deal no damage.

[Gruftzwerg]

Also to note that the ability mentions the table at page 296 of the Monster Manual, which lists a few natural weapons ("allowing a natural attack that deals the appropriate amount of damage according to the size of the new form (see Table 5–1 on page 296 of the Monster Manual)"). This very strongly implies that not only you should not be able to create an Umbral Blot natural attack, and even if you could, it would deal no damage.

RAW:
Note that the ability doesn't limit you to the natural weapons available on that list. It just refers to that list for size changes to damage. And as always in 3.5, changes to a stat can only apply if they are valid. So if an Umbral Blot has no size changes in his natural attack damage rolls, than that's it. Abilities/Effects can still work partially. E.g. a Stone of Good Luck (+1 luck bonus to all ability checks, all skill checks and save rolls) doesn't stop to work on undead characters just because they don't have a valid CON score. They still benefit from everything else. Same with the Morphic Weapons that are not listed on the size table. They still work without the size modification.

RAI: sure, the table could be seen as indicator for the limitation that the designers intended. Sadly they couldn't formulate that intention into real rule text (raw)..^^

[Noxangelo]

Was looking at the natural attack list and was wondering how you would work out the damage for the non-standard attacks, scale the damage from the monster to your size?

also would a beblith's web count as a natural attack, as it is Ex and on its attack list?

[Gruftzwerg]

Was looking at the natural attack list and was wondering how you would work out the damage for the non-standard attacks, scale the damage from the monster to your size?
You could use the Larger and Smaller Weapon Damage table (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm)as guideline.






also would a beblith's web count as a natural attack, as it is Ex and on its attack list?

By RAW definition yes. As said, the "Attack:"-line is defined as either manufactured or natural weapon. Since we can safely exclude web attacks from being manufactured weapons, they have to be natural weapons. The fact that it maybe EX,SLA,SU is not relevant for Morphic Weapons. The ability doesn't have any restrictions of that kind. It gives you the target natural weapon and anything directly associated with that (Ex, SU, SLA.. whatsoever).

This gets really silly with things like a Hydra's Head attacks, which can be slain separately. And if that is not odd enough, how about a beholder's Eye Rays? All 10 of em count as a single Morphic Weapon, like claws come always in pairs and you can have multiple Hyra Heads.

As said, Morphic Weapons is a really broken ability due to poor editing/design. So keep that in mind before causing an imbalance at your table.

[Noxangelo]

The fact that it maybe EX,SLA,SU is not relevant for Morphic Weapons.

Fair enough, it does not make that distinction in the ability description, which open a whole new level of interesting. If the DM does put that caveat on, the lantern archons light rays are Ex . . . because reasons


It gives you the target natural weapon and anything directly associated with that

Where do you get that from?


This gets really silly with things like a Hydra's Head attacks, which can be slain separately. And if that is not odd enough, how about a beholder's Eye Rays? All 10 of em count as a single Morphic Weapon, like claws come always in pairs and you can have multiple Hyra Heads.

As said, Morphic Weapons is a really broken ability due to poor editing/design. So keep that in mind before causing an imbalance at your table.

How do you justify that level of specific detail? I can understand the various specific types of attack like foreclaws or stamp but to say that your tentacles get an aboleths slime too seems a stretch even for the poor wording.

On a wacky note, if you take the beholders eye rays, does that count for beholder mage?

[Gruftzwerg]

Where do you get that from?

How do you justify that level of specific detail? I can understand the various specific types of attack like foreclaws or stamp but to say that your tentacles get an aboleths slime too seems a stretch even for the poor wording.

On a wacky note, if you take the beholders eye rays, does that count for beholder mage?


1. From the absence of any restrictions in the ability. Compare it with Alter Shape, Poly, Wild Shape who all have some kind of limitations explicitly mentioned. Morphic Weapon lacks any kind of limitation in that regards.

2. Anything listed in the "Attack:"-line is part of the Natural Weapon per definition of that line.

3. Morphic Weapons never limits you to general Natural Weapons of a type. By RAW this is a free pass to get specific Natural Weapon legally with the ability.
"..natural weapons such as claws or fangs.." only gives 2 examples with no limitation/restrictions mentioned.

As such, you could specifically get the tentacles of an aboleth and you would indeed get the slime since it is part of the "Attack:"-line .

As I said, the ability is broken and should be used with care.

edit: Beholder Mage doesn't work here. BM requires a Central Eye to be put out. Warshaper can't grow a central eye, since it is not part of the "Attack:"-line.
edit2: if you are looking for BM entry, a single Polymorh any Object lets you enter the BM. You don't loose anything after the spell ends and don't even need it to progress the prc further. If the DM insists on the Antimagic Cone ability, you can take Assume Supernatural Ability and still pass. Again.. I don't advice to play at such an optimization lvl, if your table ain't familiar and can't handle this lvl of optimization ;)

(I almost never do play such high OP games btw.)

[Noxangelo]

1. From the absence of any restrictions in the ability. Compare it with Alter Shape, Poly, Wild Shape who all have some kind of limitations explicitly mentioned. Morphic Weapon lacks any kind of limitation in that regards.

2. Anything listed in the "Attack:"-line is part of the Natural Weapon per definition of that line.

3. Morphic Weapons never limits you to general Natural Weapons of a type. By RAW this is a free pass to get specific Natural Weapon legally with the ability.
"..natural weapons such as claws or fangs.." only gives 2 examples with no limitation/restrictions mentioned.

As such, you could specifically get the tentacles of an aboleth and you would indeed get the slime since it is part of the "Attack:"-line .

The ability does not say you pick a natural attack from a monster, just to grow natural weapons. So grow tentacles, sure, grow slime . . . maybe if they had a slime launching attack.




edit: Beholder Mage doesn't work here. BM requires a Central Eye to be put out. Warshaper can't grow a central eye, since it is not part of the "Attack:"-line.
edit2: if you are looking for BM entry, a single Polymorh any Object lets you enter the BM. You don't loose anything after the spell ends and don't even need it to progress the prc further. If the DM insists on the Antimagic Cone ability, you can take Assume Supernatural Ability and still pass. Again.. I don't advice to play at such an optimization lvl, if your table ain't familiar and can't handle this lvl of optimization ;)

(I almost never do play such high OP games btw.)

i was just asking if it would count for for the class out of curiosity, not to use it as an entry.

[Gruftzwerg]

i was just asking if it would count for for the class out of curiosity, not to use it as an entry.

I have to ask: Are you talking about a real beholder with BM/warshaper levels?
If that is the chase, you would only get bigger Eye Rays/Stalks. Morphic Weapon says that if you already have that weapon type, they just grow to the next size step. Sadly the Eye Rays/Stalks don't scale with size.


The ability does not say you pick a natural attack from a monster, just to grow natural weapons. So grow tentacles, sure, grow slime . . . maybe if they had a slime launching attack.

a specific natural weapon of a specific creature is still a natural weapon (the sole restriction here). We are running circles here ;)

[Noxangelo]

I have to ask: Are you talking about a real beholder with BM/warshaper levels?
If that is the chase, you would only get bigger Eye Rays/Stalks. Morphic Weapon says that if you already have that weapon type, they just grow to the next size step. Sadly the Eye Rays/Stalks don't scale with size.

Lol, no, just a random warshaper, I was just curious if morphed eyes counted for the class. I'm not actually trying use it in a BM build.


a specific natural weapon of a specific creature is still a natural weapon (the sole restriction here). We are running circles here ;)

but the ability doesn't say anything about specific natural weapons of a specific creature, just to grow natural weapons. so, grow tentacles (or tentacle), sure, grow an aboleth tentacle, seems beyond the scope of the ability.

[Gruftzwerg]

but the ability doesn't say anything about specific natural weapons of a specific creature, just to grow natural weapons. so, grow tentacles (or tentacle), sure, grow an aboleth tentacle, seems beyond the scope of the ability.

..and the ability neither says anything about only generic natural weapon as valid option.

Let me try to explain it with a small theoretical example.

Lets assume I have won the lottery and I wanna gift my best friend a "car" which he may choose.

He has 2 legal options:
a) pick a generic car brand and model and tell me to buy one (e.g. a Porsche 911, any Porsche 911 will do the job here)
b) pick a specific car, that he chooses, and tell me to buy that specific car. (Only this one Porsche 911 will do it, he doesn't care for other Porsche 911)
The restriction was to choose a car. Therefore both options are legal.

Back to 3.5 :

"You may grow natural weapons" doesn't care if you pick a generic one or a specific one. It may not have been the designers intention, but calling out a few generic examples doesn't exclude specific one. That not how 3.5 works. The rules as far as I know em spell it out when "specific" things are handled otherwise. Unless you can provide rules that specific natural weapons are not allowed, they are legal.

It's "Specific Trumps General" and not "Specific ignores General":
While specific natural weapons are "specific", unless you can provide rules for "specific natural weapons" they have no weight to change the "general" rule. Which in our chase is: "you may grow natural weapons".
A specific natural weapon is still a natural weapon.

As said, imho it's bad editing. It allows for cheese RAW exploits. But if you ask for the designers intentions (RAI), dunno.
Compare it to a full caster (which is normally the base for entering Warshaper and not the cheesy Changeling); It's not that strong compared to 9th lvl spells which you would be sacrificing. But if you go all out it's definitively one of the most broken abilities. They have failed to put any kind of restriction for your choice. No HD limit; specific natural weapons not excluded; and EX,SLA,SU ability attacks delivered by natural weapons are not excluded. Nothing. And it not the first/sole form altering ability in the game you know..^^ a straight fail imho

[Wildstag]

Compare it to a full caster (which is normally the base for entering Warshaper and not the cheesy Changeling); It's not that strong compared to 9th lvl spells which you would be sacrificing.

I don't mind the rest of your argument but this sentence I'll call out. The PrC specifically calls out the Change Shape ability or the Shapechanger subtype. That indicates there wasn't a full-caster intended entry, especially since it doesn't advance any abilities or spell-casting that the full-caster would use to enter the PrC. There's no advancing spell-casting, there's no advancing wild shape, just strengthening of those options.

The Changeling fulfils two of the five conditions, and the other races each fulfill at least one (Tibbit brushes up against another since its Feline Transformation mentions "this effect is similar to the spell polymorph but with a number of key changes"). A lycanthrope with sufficiently low LA (such that they can be played as a PC) would just as easily enter the PrC.

[Gruftzwerg]

I don't mind the rest of your argument but this sentence I'll call out. The PrC specifically calls out the Change Shape ability or the Shapechanger subtype. That indicates there wasn't a full-caster intended entry, especially since it doesn't advance any abilities or spell-casting that the full-caster would use to enter the PrC. There's no advancing spell-casting, there's no advancing wild shape, just strengthening of those options.

The Changeling fulfils two of the five conditions, and the other races each fulfill at least one (Tibbit brushes up against another since its Feline Transformation mentions "this effect is similar to the spell polymorph but with a number of key changes"). A lycanthrope with sufficiently low LA (such that they can be played as a PC) would just as easily enter the PrC.

I think you misunderstood my intention here.

When I was talking about the "normal" base to enter the PRC, I meant that most tables play on a pretty low optimization lvl. Imho most tables play "normal" races (no LA), don't abuse early access Shenanigans and use "normal" (mostly phb) classes to enter PRCs. Take me as example. I like Theoretical Optimization in d&d (and in other games too), but I barely play at that level due to the lack of enough players (and DM) that can keep up with that lvl of optimization (and I wouldn't like to only play so strong characters games neither. Variation is the best formula for me here). And therefore I would call out any early/easy access build as not "normal" in my perception. That's why I said that "normally" a PC would give up his casting ability progression for it (because imho it's the most generic way to enter the PRC as a PC). And as we all know, spellcasting overshadows anything else in 3.5 regarding power scaling. So it beats all the stuff that Warshaper can offer. Even if you go full out on the warshaper, it's nothing compared to an optimized full caster build.

[Darg]

he array of options is really OP (e.g. Umbral Bolt (Black Bolt) Umbral Blot (Blackball): Disintegrating Touch).

Disintegrating touch is an ability, not a natural weapon. Just like how a shadow's (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadow.htm) strength damage (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#abilityDamage) is not a natural weapon even though it's on the "attack" line of the stat block.


- If you get the monk's unarmed strike ability (e.g. monk or swordsage or a prc that gives it explicitly -- Monk's Belt/Tattoo doesn't work here), you can grow "Unarmed Strike(s)". The monk's ability lets it count as natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects (and the ability is an effect). I've used this combo in my Orochimaru build to let him grow his own body out of his snake forms.

This interaction doesn't work. A monk's unarmed strike doesn't give the freedom to apply it externally:


A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

Forming natural weapons doesn't fall under "enhancing or improving."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~


Wow, that morphic weapons really is a mess.

so many possible interpretations, could i really use it to make any and all of the weapons on that list? cause thats a long list.

Take that list with a mountain sized container of salt. Most of those abilities are not weapons, but abilities that "arm" unarmed attacks or touch attacks. Take a shadow's incorporeal touch for example. It makes a touch attack armed with the strength damage ability it activates as a free action with properties of being incorporeal.


"Armed" Unarmed Attacks

Sometimes a character’s or creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed.

Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity)

Being armed means you are wielding a weapon. If the unarmed attack counts as an armed attack, that means it counts as an attack made with a weapon. Being counted as a weapon also allows you to threaten your reach. Beyond that, it makes sense that monster stat blocks would have these attack arming abilities in the stat block as they are armed with these abilities instead of conventional weapons/natural weapons.

[icefractal]

The array of options is really OP (e.g. Umbral Bolt (Black Bolt) Umbral Blot (Blackball): Disintegrating Touch).
Black Bolt has some pretty strong natural attacks too. :smallwink:
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/a/ae/FF_Vol_1_6_Textless.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/180?cb=20111130071710

Even without any natural weapon cheese (as in, growing natural weapons, but only "normal" ones in normal quantiites) the class is still pretty good for a non-primary-caster, IMO. Makes a nice follow-up to MoMF.

[Gruftzwerg]

Disintegrating touch is an ability, not a natural weapon. Just like how a shadow's (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadow.htm) strength damage (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#abilityDamage) is not a natural weapon even though it's on the "attack" line of the stat block.
Just because the attack is an ability doesn't automatically disqualify it from being a possible Natural Weapon. Read the definition of the "Attack:"-line in the MM. It's defined as either manufactured weapon or natural weapon. Unless you wanna argue that Disintegrating Touch is a manufactured weapon, it has to be a Natural Weapon (and thus a legal target for Morphic Weapons).
What you wanna imply here is sole true for "Special Attacks". Those are "special" abilities that don't need to be Natural Weapons (which they aren't by default IIRC).




This interaction doesn't work. A monk's unarmed strike doesn't give the freedom to apply it externally:


Forming natural weapons doesn't fall under "enhancing or improving."
Morphic Weapons qualifies for that:
Morphic Weapons can not just sole grow but also enhance natural weapons (that you might have). Due to this, the interaction is legal. You aren't forced to use the "enhance" mechanism of the effect for this interaction. The fact that it is also an enhancing ability (for natural weapons) is enough for the monk's unarmed strike to qualify as legal target.


edit: needed to correct a sentence. sry, just woke up and I'm not fully awake here..

[Darg]

Just because the attack is an ability doesn't automatically disqualify it from being a possible Natural Weapon. Read the definition of the "Attack:"-line in the MM. It's defined as either manufactured weapon or natural weapon. Unless you wanna argue that Disintegrating Touch is a manufactured weapon, it has to be a Natural Weapon (and thus a legal target for Morphic Weapons).
What you wanna imply here is sole true for "Special Attacks". Those are "special" abilities that don't need to be Natural Weapons (which they aren't by default IIRC).

This is why the "parenthetical is inclusive" thinking is dumb. Go down to the full attack entry where it says "Strength (for melee attacks)" and then read the very next sentence which contradicts that rule pattern by mentioning weapon finesse. Just because the parenthetical for weapons used only mentions manufactured and natural weapons doesn't mean the entry can't be altered by specific exceptions like feats and abilities.


Morphic Weapons qualifies for that:
Morphic Weapons can not just sole grow but also enhance natural weapons (that you might have). Due to this, the interaction is legal. You aren't forced to use the "enhance" mechanism of the effect for this interaction. The fact that it is also an enhancing ability (for natural weapons) is enough for the monk's unarmed strike to qualify as legal target.


edit: needed to correct a sentence. sry, just woke up and I'm not fully awake here..

Except you still can't grow an unarmed strike: "If the warshaper's form already has a natural weapon of that type, the weapon deals damage as if it were one category larger." Unless you have no body, it's impossible for you to not have an unarmed strike.

[Gruftzwerg]

This is why the "parenthetical is inclusive" thinking is dumb. Go down to the full attack entry where it says "Strength (for melee attacks)" and then read the very next sentence which contradicts that rule pattern by mentioning weapon finesse. Just because the parenthetical for weapons used only mentions manufactured and natural weapons doesn't mean the entry can't be altered by specific exceptions like feats and abilities.
I don't get what your problem is here. You have to differentiate here between actual rule text of the rule itself and friendly reminders of other rules:
It starts with explaining what Full Attack is and which one of them is a primary weapon (in the chase of multiple natural attacks).

Then it reminds you of Str & Dex mod for melee and ranged attacks. This is not part of the Full Attack rule itself. Thanks to the Primary Source Rule it is not the territory of Full Attack. As such easily recognizable as friendly reminder.

Next, we have some real rule text (for Full Attack) which explains what the secondary weapon is and how it works.

Again a friendly reminder is inserted to mention how the Multiattack feat interacts here.
...
__

I don't see how this example reflects our situation with Morphic Weapons. It's not that parentheses are used only in special chases for the "Attack:"-line. It's used on a consistent base to show what the attack does (damage / special abilities ...). I don't see any reasons to assume that the damage/effect of an attack is not part of the natural weapon it is delivered with. Especially with this writing format we have.




Except you still can't grow an unarmed strike: "If the warshaper's form already has a natural weapon of that type, the weapon deals damage as if it were one category larger." Unless you have no body, it's impossible for you to not have an unarmed strike.
Sorry, but that's not fully correct: (I know the next part is really tricky but it's RAW imho.)

Every creature has Unarmed Strikes, yes that's right.
But Unarmed Strikes are not Natural Weapons by default! Only with the combination of a monk's unarmed strike and Morphic Weapons you can grow em as Natural Weapons.

As said, really tricky but still RAW.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Unarmed strikes are weird, because the rules for them are scattered between the section on monks, the section on weapons, and various other random related or unrelated topics, none of which are complete. So while by strictest RAW, you could say that Monks' and only Monks' unarmed strikes count as natural weapons, I think it's typically ruled that all unarmed strikes count as both manufactured and natural. See also the way that all Totemist soulmelds include unarmed strikes as well as natural weapons; that interaction is spelled out, so it's still not RAW that US=natural weapon, but I think it clarifies the RAI.

[Darg]

Magic fang gives one natural weapon of the subject a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. The spell can affect a slam attack, fist, bite, or other natural weapon. (The spell does not change an unarmed strike’s damage from nonlethal damage to lethal damage.)

Yeah, Unarmed Strike is already considered a natural weapon; unless you use gauntlets.

As that is so, RAW wouldn't allow a warshaper to grow new unarmed strikes.

The benefit to a Monk's Unarmed Strikes is that they can be considered manufactured.

~~~~~~~~~

A little off topic, but there is actually nothing that says US actually benefits from extra attacks from BAB without flurry of blows.

[Gruftzwerg]

Yeah, Unarmed Strike is already considered a natural weapon; unless you use gauntlets.

As that is so, RAW wouldn't allow a warshaper to grow new unarmed strikes.

The benefit to a Monk's Unarmed Strikes is that they can be considered manufactured.

~~~~~~~~~

A little off topic, but there is actually nothing that says US actually benefits from extra attacks from BAB without flurry of blows.

Magic Fang has no right to provide global rules for unarmed strikes. It can only make specific exceptions for itself. But it doesn't do that sadly. The language used shows a reference and making wrong references has no right to change the rules found in the primary source of that topic. As a spell, magic fang can only make specific exceptions (specific trumps general) and may not change rules on a global lvl (it's not specific becomes general). Thus, it has made zero changes to the general rules presented due to bad/wrong wording/editing (by RAW).

And if you would look at the definition of Natural Weapons: they have everything Unarmed Strike doesn't have.
- being considered armed
- threatening squares to get AoO
- doesn't cause an AoO when attacking
- lethal damage without penalty to attack

Nowhere does Unarmed Strike qualify as Natural Weapon, nowhere is any statement in that regards made (in the Primary Source for that topic). Unless you can provide such a statement, Unarmed Strikes are not Natural Weapons by default.

@US - BAB - iterative attacks
Unarmed Strike doesn't need to tell you what you already know about the general rules for BAB and iterative attacks. It just follows the general rules. You don't call that out, that you follow rules as normal.
Instead, you do the opposite. You call out exceptions to the norm (specific trumps general). Like in the chase of Natural Weapons. These call out a specific exception how Natural Weapons and BAB interact.
Unarmed Strikes doesn't do that (calling out an exception to the norm for BAB). Like any other weapon doesn't do that (or does the definition of a Longsword tell you how it behaves with a high BAB?). No it just follows the general rules.

[bekeleven]

This isn't exactly what OP is asking but, on the topic of morphic weapons:

The most balanced ruling I can give for morphic weapons is that any use of it overrides previous uses, so it can give you 1 weapon at a time. That doesn't in and of itself prevent you from using nonsense stuff linked upthread but it significantly cuts down on turning yourself into the nasty gentleman. Further balance can be handled with other rulings.

The class is still pretty good without morphic weapon abuse. Lots of immunities. I pencil it in after MoMF finishes a fair amount of the time.

[Darg]

Magic Fang has no right to provide global rules for unarmed strikes. It can only make specific exceptions for itself. But it doesn't do that sadly. The language used shows a reference and making wrong references has no right to change the rules found in the primary source of that topic. As a spell, magic fang can only make specific exceptions (specific trumps general) and may not change rules on a global lvl (it's not specific becomes general). Thus, it has made zero changes to the general rules presented due to bad/wrong wording/editing (by RAW).

And if you would look at the definition of Natural Weapons: they have everything Unarmed Strike doesn't have.
- being considered armed
- threatening squares to get AoO
- doesn't cause an AoO when attacking
- lethal damage without penalty to attack

Nowhere does Unarmed Strike qualify as Natural Weapon, nowhere is any statement in that regards made (in the Primary Source for that topic). Unless you can provide such a statement, Unarmed Strikes are not Natural Weapons by default.

@US - BAB - iterative attacks
Unarmed Strike doesn't need to tell you what you already know about the general rules for BAB and iterative attacks. It just follows the general rules. You don't call that out, that you follow rules as normal.
Instead, you do the opposite. You call out exceptions to the norm (specific trumps general). Like in the chase of Natural Weapons. These call out a specific exception how Natural Weapons and BAB interact.
Unarmed Strikes doesn't do that (calling out an exception to the norm for BAB). Like any other weapon doesn't do that (or does the definition of a Longsword tell you how it behaves with a high BAB?). No it just follows the general rules.

If magic fang has no bearing on whether something is a natural weapon, then the "reading the entries" reference has no authority to define a natural weapon either.

Let me ask you this then. In what order would you prioritize the description of natural weapons, instructions for reading a stat block entry, and the rules for an '"armed" unarmed attack'? The reason I say this is that only "physical" natural weapons can be considered "armed." The thread you linked to had many non-physical so called natural weapons. Beholder eyes rays wouldn't be physical (not "armed") as they are magical in origin and do in fact provoke AoOs (ranged attack). Nor would they threaten an area as they would be ranged weapons. According to your list, the only one it satisfies is the dealing lethal damage without an attack penalty, but that one isn't a specified trait of natural weapons anyways.

Let's take this a little further: Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. An Umbral blot's disintegrating touch is it's entire body, not part of it. An unarmed strike is made with parts of a body such as your head, fist, leg, knee, etc (if you grew an unarmed strike it would only be part of a body, not the whole thing).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


The most balanced ruling I can give for morphic weapons is that any use of it overrides previous uses, so it can give you 1 weapon at a time.

Considering other similar abilities like mind blade and fire lash, I would say the intent is quite clear that multiple uses doesn't let you benefit from more than 1 use at a time.

I mean, it has an infinite duration and can't be dismissed. So it would be pretty sad if the design of the class is to turn into an NPC horror beast at level 1.

[Gruftzwerg]

If magic fang has no bearing on whether something is a natural weapon, then the "reading the entries" reference has no authority to define a natural weapon either.

Let me ask you this then. In what order would you prioritize the description of natural weapons, instructions for reading a stat block entry, and the rules for an '"armed" unarmed attack'? The reason I say this is that only "physical" natural weapons can be considered "armed." The thread you linked to had many non-physical so called natural weapons. Beholder eyes rays wouldn't be physical (not "armed") as they are magical in origin and do in fact provoke AoOs (ranged attack). Nor would they threaten an area as they would be ranged weapons. According to your list, the only one it satisfies is the dealing lethal damage without an attack penalty, but that one isn't a specified trait of natural weapons anyways.

Let's take this a little further: Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. An Umbral blot's disintegrating touch is it's entire body, not part of it. An unarmed strike is made with parts of a body such as your head, fist, leg, knee, etc (if you grew an unarmed strike it would only be part of a body, not the whole thing).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Considering other similar abilities like mind blade and fire lash, I would say the intent is quite clear that multiple uses doesn't let you benefit from more than 1 use at a time.

I mean, it has an infinite duration and can't be dismissed. So it would be pretty sad if the design of the class is to turn into an NPC horror beast at level 1.

"Reading the Entries" is the section that claims supremacy over the "entries". I'm not aware of any conflicts regarding any more global definition of natural weapons (and IIRC there is nothing more global then that).

There is no need to prioritize the description of Natural Weapons. It's all equal. Imho you are having a hard time here to recognize specific natural weapons that may have specific exceptions to the norm (e.g. be ranged and cause AoO, have special SU, SLA, EX rider effect and whatnot).

What we have is the definition of the "Attack:"line. Anything there has either to be a manufactured weapon or a natural weapon. Except if there is a statement that creates a specific exception. Since none of the assumed natural weapons in that line make such specific exception call outs, they have to be Natural Weapons.

The Umbral Blot creates specific exceptions to some of the general natural weapon rules. The natural weapon covers the entire body and has a special damage value with a special rider effect associated with it.
A monk's Unarmed Strike has the special effect that he may attack with any body-part interchangeably. To maintain this quality, Morphic Weapon needs to grow the entire thing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

@bekeleven
As I have pointed out earlier, you can only have one set of Morphic Weapons at a time. The ability mentions that you may "change" your Morphic Weapon by reusing the ability. Thus any reuse of the ability while a previous instance is active results in a changed Morphic Weapon and doesn't grow additional ones.

@Darg
The duration of Morphic Weapons is tied to your form changing ability/ies. Since those either wear off or can be easily dismissed, your concerns here are obsolete. :smallwink:

[Seward]

Wow, that morphic weapons really is a mess.

so many possible interpretations, could i really use it to make any and all of the weapons on that list? cause thats a long list.

My experience at the table is that most GM's will allow the following.

1. Increase all nat weapons you have to one size category larger (given 1 round/weapon to set it up...better for wildshape than polymorph given their durations)
2. Add one additional weapon (eg, add a stinger to your tail). Some will tie the # of weapons to how many limbs you have that don't have a weapon already (a doppleganger morphed into a human might be allowed to generate a claw/claw/bite attack similar to a lizardman while retaining human form otherwise). Any such weapons will be normal for your size.

It is poorly written so you are at mercy of GM for interpretation. If you don't go crazy with it, vastly exceeding what polymorph forms they already allow, they're more likely to go along with it.

When I added Warshaper to my build I was far more interested in the no-stun, no-crit etc perk than the morphic weapons. But I didn't have any trouble getting permission to grow cat claws/teeth a bit bigger and add one more weapon to make the tail dangerous. Once or twice I got the "1 wpn only" ruling and just made the tail into a 6th attack. It didn't affect play much because 6 attacks at normal size was still 6 attacks (when charging. if not, limited to claw-claw-bite-tail or grapple-bite+2 rake)

[Segev]

The interpretation of the RAW for Morphic Weapons that I, personally, settle on is that, for every natural weapon you already have, you can upsize it, and for every natural weapon you do not already have, you can gain exactly one and then upsize it. This is still ridiculous in the number of natural weapons it gives you, but means you're not getting multiple hydra-heads: you have a bite already. I had, at one point, a list of all the natural attacks I thought qualified, but that list would certainly be open to debate. I forget at this point what I based the precise limits on, as well as what was on it, but I think it was claw, bite, hoof, slam, tail, sting, gore.

I did not include poison attacks, nor any special magical attacks, because those things seem like they're not really "weapons" so much as "special abilities," but again, that's open to debate.

If you're doing 3.PF, I now wonder how well Warshaper pairs with Metamorph (the DSP psionic PrC).

[Zarvistic]

It's supernatural, so wouldn't it just fall under "same effect with different results" and not stack? Meaning only 1 use, overriden by future use.

[Segev]

It's supernatural, so wouldn't it just fall under "same effect with different results" and not stack? Meaning only 1 use, overriden by future use.

There's debate over whether this is about compatible vs. incompatible results, but if your DM rules that way, it certainly limits it.