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Nonah_Me
2007-11-18, 01:06 AM
Question: A beguiler with still spell (bonus) and silent spell (nother bonus) casts a Silent, Stilled Detect Thoughts in the presence of another. How does this look? Does the caster simply look distracted for six seconds? If the target makes his saving throw (say against a charm spell) does that target know you were the caster?

Also, would such a target be denied dex, thereby allowing cloaked casting?

Toliudar
2007-11-18, 02:08 AM
I've always played that when you make a saving throw, you have SOME sense of what's happened to trigger the save. In this case, I might say "You hear a voice whispering alluringly at the back of your mind, but you manage to block out the words." Not necessarily knowing the source.

Icewalker
2007-11-18, 02:12 AM
Yeah, as I've played it, you know when something has forced you to make some saves. Not necessarily all saves though.

I'd say they would just appear to be standing there doing nothing. There would be no way to determine that they are the source of the spell.

Borogove
2007-11-18, 04:16 AM
If I'm not mistaken, by the rules you know when you have to make a saving throw, but not necessarily why. In terms of what casting a stilled, silent, material component-less spell looks like - I assume the caster just looks like they're thinking about something for a couple of seconds. Like they were thinking over a sentence in their head (which is essentially what they are doing).

Jack Zander
2007-11-18, 04:21 AM
I would secretly make a spellcraft check for any characters with the skill. Success means they know the person is casting something, but they don't know what unless they beat the DC by 5 for stilled or silent, or by 10 for both.

This is all house rulings however.

Lemur
2007-11-18, 05:00 AM
In combat, it will be obvious that he's not trying to defend himself (unless casting defensively). Outside of combat, nothing would seem amiss unless someone was actively looking out for hidden spellcasting. Without any verbal or somatic components, spells being cast can't be identified via spellcraft by RAW.

The question about his dex bonus depends on whether he has it already or not, to my understanding. If he's in combat, then the target has dex to AC already, barring special circumstances. It doesn't actually matter that he can't tell if someone is casting a spell on him. If he's outside of combat, he should be flat footed, and won't be alerted of someone casting a spell, at least not until he starts to feel its effects.

Also to clarify: a target is aware that he had to make a saving throw if the save succeeds, but not if the saving throw fails. Even if it succeeds, that alone still doesn't make him aware of the source, or what the intended effect was.

Rad
2007-11-18, 05:14 AM
From the table on the uses of Spellcraft:
15 + spell level Identify a spell being cast. (You must see or hear the spellís verbal or somatic components.) No action required. No retry.
20 + spell level Identify a spell thatís already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. No action required. No retry.
25 + spell level After rolling a saving throw against a spell targeted on you, determine what that spell was. No action required. No retry.

So to understand what you have been subject to requires ranks in Spellcraft. IIRC making a save lets you know that you had to make a save in the first place so you would realize it.
As for noticing that he is casting... the caster needs to go "blank" for a few seconds and that can be noticed but it is not different from he being distracted by something over your shoulder.

[house rule] I would allow a Sense Motive check (can be used untrained) to relize that the "zoning out" was odd and not related to mundane things in the ambient, but would not tell "spell" under any condition; just let the player figure it out[/house rule]

Curmudgeon
2007-11-18, 05:36 AM
Question: A beguiler with still spell (bonus) and silent spell (nother bonus) casts a Silent, Stilled Detect Thoughts in the presence of another. How does this look? It doesn't. There are no visual manifestations in the Detect Thoughts description, so there's no "look" at all.
Does the caster simply look distracted for six seconds? You mean three seconds, because 1 standard action is half of a six second round. But the Beguiler would only possibly look distracted if they didn't make a DC 17 Concentration check to cast defensively. If they made the check, they wouldn't be distracted at all.
If the target makes his saving throw (say against a charm spell) does that target know you were the caster? No.
Succeeding on a Saving Throw

A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack.

Also, would such a target be denied dex, thereby allowing cloaked casting? What? This makes no sense at all. You're only denied your DEX bonus to AC if some part of the rules specifically says so. The Charm Person spell description and the rules for making saving throws have no such statements.

Quietus
2007-11-18, 05:47 AM
If you're outside of combat and you do this then yes, they'd be denied dex to AC. In the middle of combat, not unless you've set up circumstances to put them in that state.