Greywander
2021-11-01, 12:44 AM
Well, sort of but not really. Perhaps this is a natural evolution of 4e's "everyone is actually a caster but we're going to pretend they're not". (Disclaimer: I've never played 4e and am not familiar with its rules.) More correctly, what if you had a more generic set of resources that could fuel both spellcasting and other class features?
This might take a bit of 'splainin' (apologies in advance for the wall of text). I don't know that this could be applied (easily) to vanilla, but it's probably relevant to more than one homebrew.
I've been putting some more thought into a major overhaul that I've posted about before; specifically, stacking classes (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?632498-Stacking-class-mod-for-5e-(brainstorming)) (2 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624980-Let-s-make-some-stacking-classes)) (3 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624437-Difficulty-making-customizable-spellcasting-with-stacking-classes)) (4 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?612077-5-5e-idea-for-stacking-caster-classes-but-how-to-handle-different-types-of-casting)) (geez, I've really made four threads on this?). Don't worry, I'll summarize the relevant bits here:
Basically, each class is cut down to just four levels, and each time you finish one class you'll start a new one. By 20th level, you would have completed five classes (hence the "stacking"). My plan at the moment is to convert existing base classes into two classes, and existing subclasses into full classes. This gives you a lot more freedom to mix'n'match in order to build your own character.
Now, immediately, this presented an issue for spellcasters specifically, although you might already be able to see how this could apply more generally as well. Most casters in 5e only have minor differences in their spellcasting, but the warlock stands out as running on a truly different system. And besides, I would want to add my own alternative spellcasting methods, such as an entire wild magic system I wrote up that doesn't use spell slots at all.
The problem is that your progression isn't really fixed, and classes need to be able to be combined in any fashion. In vanilla, a necromancer is specifically a type of wizard, but here a necromancer could start off as a cleric, or bard, or warlock, or even a fighter or barbarian. What kind of spellcasting does the necromancer use if you didn't start off with a caster class? What if you go fighter -> necromancer -> warlock? I think I've come up with a workable solution to this specific issue, and I think this solution might also be able to be more generalized, with some tweaking.
The solution I'm considering for the caster-specific problem is that each caster class contributes to your caster level, and some casters unlock access to specialized types of casting. Whenever you gain a level, you can reallocate your accrued caster levels between different casting methods you've unlocked. So in the case of fighter -> necromancer -> warlock, you wouldn't even get casting until you started into necromancer, where you would probably just use the generic, default method. Once you take your first warlock level, though, you would immediately be able to reallocate all your caster levels to pact magic. Or you could do a split between the two, but that might not be advisable. Likewise, if you unlocked access to, say, wild magic, or blood magic, or whatever, you'd be able to reallocate caster levels to those specific spellcasting methods, or you could ignore them if you're just picking up those classes for their spell lists and other features.
Now here's where things get interesting. "Multiclassing" doesn't really make sense in this system, since you're already taking multiple classes. No, once you start a class, you are required to finish it before you can start a new class. But, we can come up with a comparable alternative. Another aspect of this overhaul are some big changes to the tier system. The relevant parts are that each tier is exactly four levels, and thus each class exactly fills one tier, and also that the XP required to level up a class depends on which tier you are in. So, my idea for a multiclassing alternative is to give you the option to "repeat a tier". Basically, you get to start a new class, but don't advance in tier. The XP cost to level up the new class stays what it was instead of increasing, but you have to delay some significant upgrades. Imagine delaying Extra Attack and not getting any more HP/hit dice and not increasing your proficiency bonus, for four more levels, albeit at a cheaper XP rate.
Anyway, the point of this is that you might find yourself in a situation where you have full caster progression and a few martial classes. So this might mean you have a full complement of spells slots and ki and superiority dice and... you get the idea. (We can cap our caster level according to which tier we're in, so already there's no double-dipping for caster levels.) Now, we could just ban this alternative multiclassing, so you can't build up two or more independent resource pools. But... what if we just generalized our solution to the caster-specific problem to apply here as well? For example, taking monk would give you a "caster level" and give you access to ki as a spellcasting method. So... you could actually use ki to cast spells, or use spell slots to power your ki features. You can't double dip, since you have to allocate caster levels to get ki, but you could use either ki or spell slots for both spells and ki features.
Where that finally brings us is each character has a default progression according to which tier they're in (rather than how many classes they have). This default progression gives them a pool of resources that are expended to use certain class features, including casting spells. Certain classes unlock access to alternative progression systems, e.g. spell slots, spell points, pact magic, blood magic, wild magic, ki, etc., and each time you gain a level you can reallocate your progression levels to any of the progression systems you've unlocked, but your total progression level is determined by your current tier. The resources granted by each progression system can still be used to power the features of any class, the progression system just influences the nature of those resources, how many of them you have, and how you replenish them. (For example, wild magic doesn't have any resources, instead you have to make a roll to beat a DC dependent on what spell you're casting, and the roll can also trigger a wild magic surge in a variety of severities ranging from "temporary inconvenience" to "roll a new character". Many of the lesser surge effects disappear after resting, making them equivalent to regaining a resource.)
The natural conclusion of this is that every such class feature needs to be configured as if it were a spell. You can still have class features that aren't fueled by such resources, so it's not strictly required. But if so, that means that you need a way of figuring out which level of spell slot (or equivalent) needs to be expended to use a particular feature, as well as what the effect might be if you expend a higher level slot. Which... at some point, doesn't this just mean that every class is now a caster? But you can fluff them as being a non-caster, and even use one of the martial progressions instead. Weirdly, this also applies to caster classes. You could play a monk/wizard who uses full monk progression and uses ki to cast their wizard spells.
Even without the multiclassing alternative, there's still a bit of weirdness. I've decided that in such a system, a class would either be a caster or not; no half casters (remember, each class is only four levels). So, for example, paladin: caster or not? If not a caster, how do you fuel your smites? What about iconic paladin-specific spells? This system also seems to address that as well: it doesn't matter if paladins are "casters" or not, they still get progression, even if it's the default progression, and thus can still have access to paladin spells and smites.
I'm not sure what to make of this, or if it's a good idea to pursue for the overhaul I've been considering. Would it make sense for, say, a fighter to learn certain specialized martial techniques that are treated the same as spells, and can be refluffed to such? This then leads back to an idea from the original thread on stacking classes, where spellcasting was just a more specific type of "supernatural ability", which could also include thing like superpowers or psionics or other non-magical forms of supernatural abilities, except now it's being generalized to include non-supernaturals as well. Part of me worries this will make martials feel too similar to casters, but another part of me thinks, "Yeah, this could work."
This might take a bit of 'splainin' (apologies in advance for the wall of text). I don't know that this could be applied (easily) to vanilla, but it's probably relevant to more than one homebrew.
I've been putting some more thought into a major overhaul that I've posted about before; specifically, stacking classes (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?632498-Stacking-class-mod-for-5e-(brainstorming)) (2 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624980-Let-s-make-some-stacking-classes)) (3 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624437-Difficulty-making-customizable-spellcasting-with-stacking-classes)) (4 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?612077-5-5e-idea-for-stacking-caster-classes-but-how-to-handle-different-types-of-casting)) (geez, I've really made four threads on this?). Don't worry, I'll summarize the relevant bits here:
Basically, each class is cut down to just four levels, and each time you finish one class you'll start a new one. By 20th level, you would have completed five classes (hence the "stacking"). My plan at the moment is to convert existing base classes into two classes, and existing subclasses into full classes. This gives you a lot more freedom to mix'n'match in order to build your own character.
Now, immediately, this presented an issue for spellcasters specifically, although you might already be able to see how this could apply more generally as well. Most casters in 5e only have minor differences in their spellcasting, but the warlock stands out as running on a truly different system. And besides, I would want to add my own alternative spellcasting methods, such as an entire wild magic system I wrote up that doesn't use spell slots at all.
The problem is that your progression isn't really fixed, and classes need to be able to be combined in any fashion. In vanilla, a necromancer is specifically a type of wizard, but here a necromancer could start off as a cleric, or bard, or warlock, or even a fighter or barbarian. What kind of spellcasting does the necromancer use if you didn't start off with a caster class? What if you go fighter -> necromancer -> warlock? I think I've come up with a workable solution to this specific issue, and I think this solution might also be able to be more generalized, with some tweaking.
The solution I'm considering for the caster-specific problem is that each caster class contributes to your caster level, and some casters unlock access to specialized types of casting. Whenever you gain a level, you can reallocate your accrued caster levels between different casting methods you've unlocked. So in the case of fighter -> necromancer -> warlock, you wouldn't even get casting until you started into necromancer, where you would probably just use the generic, default method. Once you take your first warlock level, though, you would immediately be able to reallocate all your caster levels to pact magic. Or you could do a split between the two, but that might not be advisable. Likewise, if you unlocked access to, say, wild magic, or blood magic, or whatever, you'd be able to reallocate caster levels to those specific spellcasting methods, or you could ignore them if you're just picking up those classes for their spell lists and other features.
Now here's where things get interesting. "Multiclassing" doesn't really make sense in this system, since you're already taking multiple classes. No, once you start a class, you are required to finish it before you can start a new class. But, we can come up with a comparable alternative. Another aspect of this overhaul are some big changes to the tier system. The relevant parts are that each tier is exactly four levels, and thus each class exactly fills one tier, and also that the XP required to level up a class depends on which tier you are in. So, my idea for a multiclassing alternative is to give you the option to "repeat a tier". Basically, you get to start a new class, but don't advance in tier. The XP cost to level up the new class stays what it was instead of increasing, but you have to delay some significant upgrades. Imagine delaying Extra Attack and not getting any more HP/hit dice and not increasing your proficiency bonus, for four more levels, albeit at a cheaper XP rate.
Anyway, the point of this is that you might find yourself in a situation where you have full caster progression and a few martial classes. So this might mean you have a full complement of spells slots and ki and superiority dice and... you get the idea. (We can cap our caster level according to which tier we're in, so already there's no double-dipping for caster levels.) Now, we could just ban this alternative multiclassing, so you can't build up two or more independent resource pools. But... what if we just generalized our solution to the caster-specific problem to apply here as well? For example, taking monk would give you a "caster level" and give you access to ki as a spellcasting method. So... you could actually use ki to cast spells, or use spell slots to power your ki features. You can't double dip, since you have to allocate caster levels to get ki, but you could use either ki or spell slots for both spells and ki features.
Where that finally brings us is each character has a default progression according to which tier they're in (rather than how many classes they have). This default progression gives them a pool of resources that are expended to use certain class features, including casting spells. Certain classes unlock access to alternative progression systems, e.g. spell slots, spell points, pact magic, blood magic, wild magic, ki, etc., and each time you gain a level you can reallocate your progression levels to any of the progression systems you've unlocked, but your total progression level is determined by your current tier. The resources granted by each progression system can still be used to power the features of any class, the progression system just influences the nature of those resources, how many of them you have, and how you replenish them. (For example, wild magic doesn't have any resources, instead you have to make a roll to beat a DC dependent on what spell you're casting, and the roll can also trigger a wild magic surge in a variety of severities ranging from "temporary inconvenience" to "roll a new character". Many of the lesser surge effects disappear after resting, making them equivalent to regaining a resource.)
The natural conclusion of this is that every such class feature needs to be configured as if it were a spell. You can still have class features that aren't fueled by such resources, so it's not strictly required. But if so, that means that you need a way of figuring out which level of spell slot (or equivalent) needs to be expended to use a particular feature, as well as what the effect might be if you expend a higher level slot. Which... at some point, doesn't this just mean that every class is now a caster? But you can fluff them as being a non-caster, and even use one of the martial progressions instead. Weirdly, this also applies to caster classes. You could play a monk/wizard who uses full monk progression and uses ki to cast their wizard spells.
Even without the multiclassing alternative, there's still a bit of weirdness. I've decided that in such a system, a class would either be a caster or not; no half casters (remember, each class is only four levels). So, for example, paladin: caster or not? If not a caster, how do you fuel your smites? What about iconic paladin-specific spells? This system also seems to address that as well: it doesn't matter if paladins are "casters" or not, they still get progression, even if it's the default progression, and thus can still have access to paladin spells and smites.
I'm not sure what to make of this, or if it's a good idea to pursue for the overhaul I've been considering. Would it make sense for, say, a fighter to learn certain specialized martial techniques that are treated the same as spells, and can be refluffed to such? This then leads back to an idea from the original thread on stacking classes, where spellcasting was just a more specific type of "supernatural ability", which could also include thing like superpowers or psionics or other non-magical forms of supernatural abilities, except now it's being generalized to include non-supernaturals as well. Part of me worries this will make martials feel too similar to casters, but another part of me thinks, "Yeah, this could work."