OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[hamishspence]

Good snark from Belkar there.

[Gabiti]

Indeed, gotta love his quips

[Ivrytwr]

Love Belkar's just-shut-up advice.
Thanks Giant!

[Fyraltari]

What is this new thing, a carpet of doom?

[Locnil]

I keep forgetting that V's character development didn't include learning to be concise.

[Crusher]

Hah! Belkar always gets the best punchlines.

[Onyavar]

So Serini is friends with lots of monsters, I get it. But doesn't it seem most of them are pretty old D&D canon?

(Wait, did I just randomly check on the GiantITP within five minutes of a comic update? Wow.)

[Skull the Troll]

So Serini is friends with lots of monsters, I get it. But doesn't it seem most of them are pretty old D&D canon?

(Wait, did I just randomly check on the GiantITP within five minutes of a comic update? Wow.)

Well, she set this place up like 50 years ago. Monster Manual was pretty different then. :) WAs that a shot from the giant to the forums there at the top? Love it!

[Fyraltari]

Well, she set this place up like 50 years ago. Monster Manual was pretty different then. :) WAs that a shot from the giant to the forums there at the top? Love it!

The Giant knows his readers.

[danielxcutter]

While I presume Rich plans for this to flow naturally once it’s all done, I’m getting a little tired of “Serini counters everything the Order does”. Hopefully this chase ends before next Halloween.

That being said I chuckled at V’s line in the last panel.

[M.A.D]

Belkar's the one to suggest NOT to kill. Yep. Nothing wrong there.

[MoonCat]

Hands-on-hips V is absolutely the cutest pedant.

Since the toothy ceiling rug came from above, can someone explain the comic title to me?

[Psyren]

V is gonna get another Soul Splice just to wipe out Serini if this keeps up :smalltongue: (Where's Blackwing?)


What is this new thing, a carpet of doom?


Hands-on-hips V is absolutely the cutest pedant.

Since the toothy ceiling rug came from above, can someone explain the comic title to me?

The creature that fell on V is likely a Lurker Above, one of several Gygaxian creations that depended on adventurers rushing ahead without checking the ceiling (like V did.)

[Duncun]

Since the toothy ceiling rug came from above, can someone explain the comic title to me?

The creature is called a Lurker. The title is a play on the phrase "look out below".

[danielxcutter]

V is gonna get another Soul Splice just to wipe out Serini if this keeps up :smalltongue: (Where's Blackwing?)

Jokes aside, Blackwing’s still outside the dungeon with no way to get inside. So yeah.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Hands-on-hips V is absolutely the cutest pedant.

Since the toothy ceiling rug came from above, can someone explain the comic title to me?

Well, that creature is called a lurker, and its way of attacking is pretty well represented here. There is a variation of this creature called the lurker below that lives underwater instead, but that doesn't make much sense. The only other mention of it I found was a Kraken from World of Warcraft.

[hroþila]

While I presume Rich plans for this to flow naturally once it’s all done, I’m getting a little tired of “Serini counters everything the Order does”. Hopefully this chase ends before next Halloween.
To be fair you were already tired of that approximately minus eleventy minutes after it started.

Serini needs to be competent.

[In4Dimensions]

Does the fact that V was targeted with a mind-effecting beam mean that Serini's knowledge of the Order does not extend to the day-to-day level, or did V just get lucky?

[danielxcutter]

To be fair you were already tired of that approximately minus eleventy minutes after it started.

Serini needs to be competent.

I’d be glad to see that if she wasn’t making the protagonists look entirely incompetent in comparison. About the only thing the Order’s legitimately achieved through skill here is getting Sunny to blink and Haley kicking Serini down to the floor. And she got out of all of that as well.

[Breccia]

Actually, if you read the RAW and...wait, you can have a wand of dimdoor? Sweet! I want one!

[Gwynfrid]

Does the fact that V was targeted with a mind-effecting beam mean that Serini's knowledge of the Order does not extend to the day-to-day level, or did V just get lucky?

It means two things
- Serini's knowledge is pretty good, but not 100%, and anyway, Sunny decided which ray to use without her guidance.
- The Giant wanted to poke at the over-analyzing ways of this forum, just a little bit :smalltongue:

For my part, I just love this comic, in particular V's and Belkar's hilarious lines, and the super-cute little lurker!

[danielxcutter]

Actually, if you read the RAW and...wait, you can have a wand of dimdoor? Sweet! I want one!

…Uh, yeah? 4th or lower is fair game.

[TRH]

I keep forgetting that V's character development didn't include learning to be concise.

V has, if anything, gotten less concise than they were in the early days.

[Hurkyl]

I'm pleased. So far, this is going about as well for the Order as I thought it would. :smallbiggrin:

[Cicciograna]

I am really annoyed by V's behavior at this juncture. Just running/flying ahead like that, without even checking their surroundings. Whatever happened to basic adventurer paranoia, though? It's like these people have never had a ceiling come to life and try to smother them before! (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0960.html)

:smallwink:

[zinycor]

While I presume Rich plans for this to flow naturally once it’s all done, I’m getting a little tired of “Serini counters everything the Order does”. Hopefully this chase ends before next Halloween.

That being said I chuckled at V’s line in the last panel.

I mean rogues, specially very high level ones, are like that. And you are forgetting that now she is on the run because how Hailey countered her plan.

[Hurkyl]

Well, she set this place up like 50 years ago. Monster Manual was pretty different then. :) WAs that a shot from the giant to the forums there at the top? Love it!
Huh. Come to think about it, this seems like a good old-fashioned "the dungeon is out to kill you" adventure. Almost refreshing, really.

[Ornithologist]

Two things.

1. I like the detail of seeing the Lurker on hte roof in theearly panel.

2. Is it just me, or do most major character halfings just seem to try to aggrivate V?

[b_jonas]

The creature that fell on V is likely a Lurker Above, Not only that. It's a baby lurker above that hasn't yet grown to the size of a full 6 foot dungeon square.

[internisus]

Does the fact that V was targeted with a mind-effecting beam mean that Serini's knowledge of the Order does not extend to the day-to-day level, or did V just get lucky?

I have my doubts that V's assessment is accurate. I think that the beam had some effect that wasn't immediately apparent.

[zinycor]

I’d be glad to see that if she wasn’t making the protagonists look entirely incompetent in comparison. About the only thing the Order’s legitimately achieved through skill here is getting Sunny to blink and Haley kicking Serini down to the floor. And she got out of all of that as well.

This is a comical strip. Having the protagonists looking entirely incompetent is totally normal and in-character for them.

[smuchmuch]

So, at this rate, next we should get a darkmantle, a gelatinous cube in a square hole, two dozens variety of mimics and some umber hulks int he walls ? :p

Seriously tho, while i don't mind that Serini, the epic level rogue, easily evade the order in the dungeon she herself filled with traps and monsters, that make sense to me, this particular page felt a little like filler-y to me. Am i the only one ?
(Yeah V being pendat is cute and the joke at overanlalysis was funny but still not enough to make the page for me). I just kinda hope the rest of the chasse, if it keeps going on, is handled with either a montage page or mostly offscreen with occasional close in while we get to see something else.

[KorvinStarmast]

I keep forgetting that V's character development didn't include learning to be concise. V is for Verbose

So Serini is friends with lots of monsters, I get it. But doesn't it seem most of them are pretty old D&D canon? Ain't it great? :smallbiggrin:

Belkar's the one to suggest NOT to kill. Yep. Nothing wrong there. Is this along the lines of "Belkar's acting like a Ranger, we're doomed!" :smallconfused:

The creature that fell on V is likely a Lurker Above, one of several Gygaxian creations that depended on adventurers rushing ahead without checking the ceiling (like V did.) Ain't it great? :smallbiggrin:

Does the fact that V was targeted with a mind-effecting beam mean that Serini's knowledge of the Order does not extend to the day-to-day level, or did V just get lucky? V was prepared for a different threat (Xykon) - this threat is a lesser included case. Sometimes, "luck" means that preparation meets situation.

wait, you can have a wand of dimdoor? Sweet! I want one! My bard does also (5e). She's been swallowed by a purple worm, and a kraken. (Yes, she had to burn a spell slot to DD out of each one of those).

Belkar: back to being comic relief. Good!

Thank you Giant!

[danielxcutter]

This is a comical strip. Having the protagonists looking entirely incompetent is totally normal and in-character for them.

Yes, but up until the last book they actually were fairly competent. This one rolled them right back to Blood Runs In the Family, if not earlier.

[Ionathus]

This one's fantastic. Love both Belkar's quips and V's indignant pedantry. "You circumvented my bubble!" is so delightful.


I’d be glad to see that if she wasn’t making the protagonists look entirely incompetent in comparison. About the only thing the Order’s legitimately achieved through skill here is getting Sunny to blink and Haley kicking Serini down to the floor. And she got out of all of that as well.

Really, you think this fight has made the Order look incompetent? They had the deck stacked against them in a nasty ambush with cheesed tactics, and they turned it completely around and even sent the ambusher herself into full retreat. That feels pretty darn competent to me.


I am really annoyed by V's behavior at this juncture. Just running/flying ahead like that, without even checking their surroundings. Whatever happened to basic adventurer paranoia, though? It's like these people have never had a ceiling come to life and try to smother them before! (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0960.html)

:smallwink:

If that's an intentional callback, it's a great one :smallbiggrin:

All jokes aside, I'm loving this group dynamic. We've already seen Haley & V and also Haley & Belkar, but all three of them together (plus some character growth) makes for a fun skillset and decision-making mentality.

[zinycor]

So, at this rate, next we should get a darkmantle, a gelatinous cube in square hole, two dozens variety of mimics and some umber hulks int he walls ? :p
Seriously tho, while i dodn't mind that Serini, the epic level rogue, easily evade the order in the dungeon she herself filled with trps and monsters, that make sense, this particular page felt a little filler. Kinda hope the rest of the chasse, if it keeps going on, is handled with either a montage page or mostly offscreen with occasional close in while we get to see something else.

I believe this is a case of one getting spoiled from reading one page at a time over the course of weeks. Once we are reading it on the bulk, as part of a story it will flow more naturally.

[Rogan]

Does the fact that V was targeted with a mind-effecting beam mean that Serini's knowledge of the Order does not extend to the day-to-day level, or did V just get lucky?

V wasn't targeted with a mind effecting beam. Haley moved her out of the way of one beam, but this made another beam hit V instead.

I also want to say, I agree with everybody who liked Vs pedantic response to the burst the bubble pun and Belkars last comment.

[zinycor]

Yes, but up until the last book they actually were fairly competent. This one rolled them right back to Blood Runs In the Family, if not earlier.

Blood in the family had Elan and Durkon failing to recognize that Elan's father and Mallack were evil , Roy and Belkar getting defeated and then taken prisoner.

The previous arc had the whole party (Minus Belkar) actively helping vampire Durkon.

[danielxcutter]

Blood in the family had Elan and Durkon failing to recognize that Elan's father and Mallack were evil , Roy and Belkar getting defeated and then taken prisoner.

The previous arc had the whole party (Minus Belkar) actively helping vampire Durkon.

Yes, but the Dining Room fight actually feels legit; sure they blew their saves but it feels like they lost that one fair and square.

This fight feels like those preschool fights where the other guy makes up new rules on the spot.

[hroþila]

The Order just repelled an ambush by an Epic rogue and a beholder in their home turf, I honestly don't see how this qualifies as incompetence.

[zinycor]

Yes, but the Dining Room fight actually feels legit; sure they blew their saves but it feels like they lost that one fair and square.

This fight feels like those preschool fights where the other guy makes up new rules on the spot.

Since we are arguing feeling I'll just say it doesn't feel that way to me

[danielxcutter]

I don’t really see how the Order is going to accomplish anything with three separate epic factions on their ass, which is why I’m eager to see this threat at least overcome sooner rather than later.

[zinycor]

I don’t really see how the Order is going to accomplish anything with three separate epic factions on their ass, which is why I’m eager to see this threat at least overcome sooner rather than later.

It's the beginning of the arc, that feeling is purposefully there

[elecampane]

WAs that a shot from the giant to the forums there at the top? Love it!
I, for one, very much appreciate the lampshading that how dispel rules were a little bent (still shouldn't have dispelled multiple spells from a single person for an area dispell, though :p ). It makes easier for me to not get hung up on the inconsistency and move on.


(Where's Blackwing?)
Still outside on his perch (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1223.html) among the snow, he never joined them in the cave. If at least one character maintained the telepathic bond after the dispel, they can still communicate with him.


I have my doubts that V's assessment is accurate. I think that the beam had some effect that wasn't immediately apparent.
I mean, we pretty much know what are the effects of each and every one of Sunny's eyes (the effects are similar to the standard beholder, but they lack the finger of death and the inflict wounds eyes). None of the rays have delayed effects; 4 out of 8 rays are indeed mind-affecting (charm monster/person, sleep, fear), other 4 we would notice immediately (disintegrate, flesh to stone, slow, telekinesis)

[Joe the Rat]

ROM NOM NOM

I need to remember that next time I get to drop something on the players.

[Cygnia]

Somebody specc'ed into Beast Heart Adept, I see...:smallamused:

[Ionathus]

Yes, but the Dining Room fight actually feels legit; sure they blew their saves but it feels like they lost that one fair and square.

This fight feels like those preschool fights where the other guy makes up new rules on the spot.

Your mileage may vary. I, for one, feel like they're showing more competence here than in the second half of the Dining Room fight. They had a strong start with the chaos giraffes, but as soon as the vampires used Dispel Magic (a pretty predictable tactic) they were dead in the water. I don't necessarily feel they were incompetent in that fight, but I don't think they displayed any worse decision-making here. And in fact, I feel they've gotten demonstratably better at thinking on their feet and improvising.

[Windscion]

I keep forgetting that V's character development didn't include learning to be concise.

V's character development doesn't seem to have included "listen to Haley." Which is odd, because Haley is V's closest confidante. I guess on matters of tactics V only listens to "Roy Big Hero Guy."

[danielxcutter]

Your mileage may vary. I, for one, feel like they're showing more competence here than in the second half of the Dining Room fight. They had a strong start with the chaos giraffes, but as soon as the vampires used Dispel Magic (a pretty predictable tactic) they were dead in the water. I don't necessarily feel they were incompetent in that fight, but I don't think they displayed any worse decision-making here. And in fact, I feel they've gotten demonstratably better at thinking on their feet and improvising.

By competent I mean “able to do crap”. They… haven’t actually done much because Serini keeps pulling out contingencies out her ass. Ten quatloos says that another of her monsters is trying to eat the rest of the Order right now.

[Ionathus]

A Serini who's constantly pulling contingencies out of her ass is a Serini who isn't neutralizing/knocking out members of the Order. She's retreating - she's on the back foot.

Repelling an ambush does count as "doing crap," even if it's not a flashy, conclusive victory.

[InvisibleBison]

By competent I mean “able to do crap”. They… haven’t actually done much because Serini keeps pulling out contingencies out her ass. Ten quatloos says that another of her monsters is trying to eat the rest of the Order right now.

It seems to me that the Order is doing quite a bit - they've overcome everything that Serini has thrown at them and forced her to flee.

[SlashDash]

To me this seems like this whole things is about to be over any second now.
It's probably not a coincidence that Roy, Durkon and Minrah - aka the three lawful characters were left behind alongside Elan the childish member of the party who is least likely considering that sometimes things need to be done the hard way.

Haley, Belkar and V are far closer to Serini's mentality that they might actually start having a dialogue soon.



Seriously tho, while i don't mind that Serini, the epic level rogue, easily evade the order in the dungeon she herself filled with traps and monsters, that make sense to me, this particular page felt a little like filler-y to me. Am i the only one ?
It's not a filler, it's a setup.
Last we saw them, the party split up and we saw what happened back with Sunny, now we are shifting to the other half of the party, so you need an establishing strip at the very least.

[TuringTest]

Yes, but the Dining Room fight actually feels legit; sure they blew their saves but it feels like they lost that one fair and square.

This fight feels like those preschool fights where the other guy makes up new rules on the spot.

They were fighting newly-born vampires then. Even if one of them was his goddess' High Priest, it was matched in power level.

Here they're fighting an epic rogue several levels above theirs, in her own dungeon, after giving her more than enough warning to prepare an ambush. That they managed to overcome the ambush at all is alreasy a success in itself.

[Robots]

Update. Aw yeah.

V getting trapped in the jaws of that Monster I Cannot Identify Because I Don't Play A Lot Of DnD reminds me of like, when people get rolled up into carpets.

Does that make sense? I doubt it.

[Psyren]

To be fair you were already tired of that approximately minus eleventy minutes after it started.

Serini needs to be competent.

She's indeed great at stalling without accomplishing anything of substance.

I do find it interesting that she only popped 10-20ft. away from the bubble instead of taking the opportunity to blink 400ft. away. Does she not know her own dungeon that well, or is she luring them to something specific?


Does the fact that V was targeted with a mind-effecting beam mean that Serini's knowledge of the Order does not extend to the day-to-day level, or did V just get lucky?


It means two things
- Serini's knowledge is pretty good, but not 100%, and anyway, Sunny decided which ray to use without her guidance.
- The Giant wanted to poke at the over-analyzing ways of this forum, just a little bit :smalltongue:

For my part, I just love this comic, in particular V's and Belkar's hilarious lines, and the super-cute little lurker!

Alternatively, and hear me out on this one, Sunny is not Serini.


I have my doubts that V's assessment is accurate. I think that the beam had some effect that wasn't immediately apparent.

We know what all 8 of them do, so no.

[Hurkyl]

Is Belkar the most experienced dungeon crawler of the group?

Anyways, I think the past couple of strip is setting us up for a rogue on rogue game of cat and mouse. Haley seems to have the best grasp by far about what they may be dealing with, and circumstances seem to be setting her up to take the lead in organizing the chase party to go after their foe.

[Peelee]

I’d be glad to see that if she wasn’t making the protagonists look entirely incompetent in comparison.

Shes not. She's an epic level rogue with a home field advantage, fighting against people who were wholly unprepared for such a fight (in no small part due to her never answering their calls, and thus not confirming whether she was even alive, much less actively disinterested in their help).

Thst doesn't make them look incompetent. That's completely understandable, based on the setup. If someone sucker pinches you, that doesnt mean you're a bad fighter. That means you were caught unprepared.

[danielxcutter]

She's indeed great at stalling without accomplishing anything of substance.

She’s also doing an excellent job at ensuring that the Order won’t be able to stop Xykon.

[Psyren]

Is Belkar the most experienced dungeon crawler of the group?

I'd honestly put Haley above him but he's up there.


She’s also doing an excellent job at ensuring that the Order won’t be able to stop Xykon.

I'll be fair here, that "ambush Xykon at the portal trap by ourselves with no help from the architect of the dungeon" plan had a pretty high chance of ending with Order Pizza. Getting a surprise round was better than a straight-up fight, but not by much.

[r2d2go]

Given that Serini is getting away, I cannot WAIT for the actually chatty halves of each party to become friends and resolve this. That would avoid the terribly unsatisfying "Xykon wins because miscommunication" problem AND give Elan and Sunny some fun character development. Competent diplomat go!

Edit: To be clear, I expect the well memorized and twisty tunnels to give Serini an escape at this point. She's rounded the corner and with every 20-60 ft or so she gains another wand cast and another 50-50 at which tunnel is right. On the other hand, Elan has healing, Song of Freedom, and Neutralize Poison. He can get the entire other half of the Order up... if he can convince Sunny to let him. Given her helpful disposition and Elan's genuine innocence and goodness, I think it's likely.

They really don't have a good reason to not be friends, other than "Mom told me so". But Mom at best called them misguided and incompetent, which is terribly unthreatening, and who is moreso than Elan (in apperance if not in function)? Surely he's fine to befriend...

I have high hopes.

[Fyraltari]

I’d be glad to see that if she wasn’t making the protagonists look entirely incompetent in comparison. About the only thing the Order’s legitimately achieved through skill here is getting Sunny to blink and Haley kicking Serini down to the floor. And she got out of all of that as well.
What have they done that looks incompetent? Being incompetent and losing is not the same, and they're not even losing: she's running away from them!

sucker pinches

Some kind of throttle, I would imagine.

[Gwynfrid]

So, at this rate, next we should get a darkmantle, a gelatinous cube in a square hole, two dozens variety of mimics and some umber hulks int he walls ?

I sure hope so! In fact, I hope for a whole gallery of monsters in the next dozen pages. I strongly suspect that the whole reason for Serini having decided to build a tomb for Kraagor and fill it with monsters (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html) is so that Rich can have a ton of fun drawing monsters galore...

[danielxcutter]

I'd honestly put Haley above him but he's up there.

Rangers actually do have a lot of the dungeon-relevant skills I think, so that makes sense.


Given that Serini is getting away, I cannot WAIT for the actually chatty halves of each party to become friends and resolve this. That would avoid the terribly unsatisfying "Xykon wins because miscommunication" problem AND give Elan and Sunny some fun character development. Competent diplomat go!

Yeah, I’d rather see that for a bit rather than the next 50 strips being Serini going “nuh uh, you didn’t get me”.

[Psyren]

As an example - Haley figured out what Elan was doing immediately (to get her access to her bag of holding) while Belkar was slower on the uptake. That's the kind of dungeon savvy you can't teach :smallamused:

I also disagree wholeheartedly with Belkar's assessment, I love the rules stuff still making its way into the strip :smallbiggrin:

[danielxcutter]

Considering Belkar’s dumped almost all his mental stats, I’d be surprised if he did.

[Hurkyl]

Yeah, I’d rather see that for a bit rather than the next 50 strips being Serini going “nuh uh, you didn’t get me”.
It will probably just show the highlights on panel, interspersed with catching up with the other half of the party, Team Evil, or any of the other players that are going to be relevant this chapter. (if the story goes the extended chase route, anyways)

[zinycor]

Yeah, I’d rather see that for a bit rather than the next 50 strips being Serini going “nuh uh, you didn’t get me”.

Next strip, the world is saved, no explanation! Now that's where saving time leads xD

[Psyren]

Considering Belkar’s dumped almost all his mental stats, I’d be surprised if he did.

There are some aspects of adventuring savvy that aren't represented by mental stats necessarily, and Belkar has those in spades. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1182.html)

[luagha]

>I do find it interesting that she only popped 10-20ft. away from the bubble instead of taking the opportunity to blink 400ft. away. Does she not know her own dungeon that well, or is she luring them to something specific?


The dungeons likely have some kind of teleport protection in the walls, I think that was mentioned. You can do a line of sight teleport a little ways in a corridor, but you can't teleport/dimension door through any of the walls. Which means no dimension door for Serini to just get 400 feet away into an entirely different section of the complex.

[Psyren]

The dungeons likely have some kind of teleport protection in the walls, I think that was mentioned. You can do a line of sight teleport a little ways in a corridor, but you can't teleport/dimension door through any of the walls. Which means no dimension door for Serini to just get 400 feet away into an entirely different section of the complex.

1) That didn't stop her earlier. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1229.html)

2) Even if you're right and only straight line porting is possible - she could have gotten much further away in a straight line than she did.

[danielxcutter]

1) That didn't stop her earlier. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1229.html)

2) Even if you're right and only straight line porting is possible - she could have gotten much further away in a straight line than she did.

Yeah, she’s totally leading them into another killbox.

[Hurkyl]

1) That didn't stop her earlier. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1229.html)
I've been presuming all along that was a separate building. The possibility that could have been inside Kraagor's Tomb actually never even crossed my mind.

[Psyren]

I've been presuming all along that was a separate building. The possibility that could have been inside Kraagor's Tomb actually never even crossed my mind.

As Haley mentioned, (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1198.html) it's unlikely she has a wholly separate complex when TE would have combed the area for one. Plus wand limits mean her only method of teleportation is likely to be Dimension Door, so she can't be too far away. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0812.html) Those two facts point to the most likely location for her base to be inside the dungeon complex proper.


Yeah, she’s totally leading them into another killbox.

I'm curious about the splash weapon she threw too, as that would hint at her intentions. It didn't appear to be acid, was it forget-juice? slow-down goo? More sleep poison, but contact instead of injury?

[Doug Lampert]

I'm curious about the splash weapon she threw too, as that would hint at her intentions. It didn't appear to be acid, was it forget-juice? slow-down goo? More sleep poison, but contact instead of injury?

Eh? It's green fluid in a D&D comic that comes in a vial and reacts with a stone floor (so not poison). It's acid. How does it not look like acid?

[wilphe]

I sure hope so! In fact, I hope for a whole gallery of monsters in the next dozen pages. I strongly suspect that the whole reason for Serini having decided to build a tomb for Kraagor and fill it with monsters (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html) is so that Rich can have a ton of fun drawing monsters galore...

Hmm:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0055.html

Monsters never officially updated to 3E.

Piercers and Lurkers were not updated to 3E right?

Which suggests some sort of connection/callback is going to happen

[Psyren]

Eh? It's green fluid in a D&D comic that comes in a vial and reacts with a stone floor (so not poison). It's acid. How does it not look like acid?

It didn't look like it interacted with the floor to me. Fumes came from it, but in panel 9 it looks like it's just settled on the floor behind V instead of having eaten through it.

Also, she wasn't trying to do lethal damage to them previously, just knock them out.


Hmm:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0055.html

Monsters never officially updated to 3E.

Piercers and Lurkers were not updated to 3E right?

Which suggests some sort of connection/callback is going to happen

I imagine it's like Dorukan's tomb where they filled their dungeons (or at least, part of their dungeons) with the monsters that were around at the time.

I expect if we got a Scribble prequel, it would include some AD&D or 3.0 callback jokes.

[Metastachydium]

Considering Belkar’s dumped almost all his mental stats, I’d be surprised if he did.

I never saw any concrete evidence that he's low INT, though. Sure, V thinks so, but V thinks everyone else is some degree of dumb.

[danielxcutter]

I did say almost.

[Erai]

That last comment of Belkar made me snort soda through my nose and over my keyboard. I hope he is happy now (Darn it... he probably would be :smallbiggrin: )

[Metastachydium]

I did say almost.

He's also a decent liar and succesful with women. His CHA can't be as low as Durkon's or V's either. (Although yeah, I doubt he invested a lot into it.)

[Peelee]

Regardless of anything, it is at least refreshing to have someone flippantly speculate killing their opponent that they don't really want to kill without them being called out as callous or evil by people. Progress.

She's indeed great at stalling without accomplishing anything of substance.
True of anyone whose plans are being foiled, I suppose. Xykon and Redcloak stalled without accomplishing anything of substance when fighting the Order in Dorukan's Dungeon, if you look at it that way.

She’s also doing an excellent job at ensuring that the Order won’t be able to stop Xykon.
Oh cool, nice to know the Order won't stop Xykon after all.

Unless, of course, you're completely wrong.

[bunsen_h]

I am really annoyed by V's behavior at this juncture. Just running/flying ahead like that, without even checking their surroundings. Whatever happened to basic adventurer paranoia, though? It's like these people have never had a ceiling come to life and try to smother them before! (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0960.html)

:smallwink:

Serini is successfully taunting V to be careless, and there may be an element of arrogance as well on V's part: of course I can take on this little old halfling!


I do find it interesting that she only popped 10-20ft. away from the bubble instead of taking the opportunity to blink 400ft. away. Does she not know her own dungeon that well, or is she luring them to something specific?

Luring would be my guess.


Eh? It's green fluid in a D&D comic that comes in a vial and reacts with a stone floor (so not poison). It's acid. How does it not look like acid?

Monster-in-a-bottle. Upon its release, it reforms into a baby Horta. Having some Hortas (Hortae?) as associates would help with the tunnel-building.

[Metastachydium]

Regardless of anything, it is at least refreshing to have someone flippantly speculate killing their opponent that they don't really want to kill without them being called out as callous or evil by people. Progress.

Protagonist get some leeway, I suppose. (Also, it's funny how the only one who did not express a wish to just puncture Serini's vital organs is the token Evil teammate.)


Oh cool, nice to know the Order won't stop Xykon after all.

Unless, of course, you're completely wrong.

Of course she won't prevent that, but she's trying, Ringo!

[Elkad]

Update. Aw yeah.

V getting trapped in the jaws of that Monster I Cannot Identify Because I Don't Play A Lot Of DnD reminds me of like, when people get rolled up into carpets.

Does that make sense? I doubt it.

Yes.
A "Trapper" is a carpet that rolls you up and squeezes you when you step on it. Then it eats you.
A "Lurker" hangs on the ceiling and does the same thing when you walk (or fly) under it.

[danielxcutter]

He's also a decent liar and succesful with women. His CHA can't be as low as Durkon's or V's either. (Although yeah, I doubt he invested a lot into it.)

Hmm, where was that post about the flayer seeing the Order as food? I don't think it actually mentioned Belkar's mental scores, though.


Oh cool, nice to know the Order won't stop Xykon after all.

Unless, of course, you're completely wrong.

And now I'm positive you're trying to make me feel bad, but what I meant that they have basically negative two thousand percent of a chance if she doesn't stop trying to sabotage them. Do you really expect the Order to be able to defeat all three of those factions at once?

[Peelee]

Of course she won't prevent that, but she's trying, Ringo!

She doesn't think they can to start with, so if anything, she thinks she's saving their lives.

And now I'm positive you're trying to make me feel bad, but what I meant that they have basically negative two thousand percent of a chance if she doesn't stop trying to sabotage them. Do you really expect the Order to be able to defeat all three of those factions at once?

I wasn't aware that they absolutely had to fight all three factions at once. I must have missed the strip where that was mandated.

In fact, they seem to be only fighting one currently. How shocking.

Also, I'm not trying to make you feel bad. I'm highlighting what I believe to be flaws in your argument.

[danielxcutter]

She doesn't think they can to start with, so if anything, she thinks she's saving their lives.

Serini thinking that she's right doesn't change the fact that if she succeeds it really will likely result in the end of this world at minimum.

[Metastachydium]

Hmm, where was that post about the flayer seeing the Order as food? I don't think it actually mentioned Belkar's mental scores, though.

Right here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html), and yes, it doesn't.


She doesn't think they can to start with, so if anything, she thinks she's saving their lives.

With no. 8 and glue!

[Windscion]

No, it means Serini will drug them and talk to them and learn stuff they have been trying to tell her.

[danielxcutter]

Oh come on, that's not what I meant at all and I'm pretty sure most of you know that. If she actually does what she plans to do now, that removes the Order from the equation and results in at minimum the gods unmaking the world, that was my point; whether she changes plans after learning the potential results is a different matter entirely.

Besides, I really don't think she's going to listen to the Order unless it's crammed down her throat, possibly with a feeding tube. The only reason she talked with the paladins is because they woke up and because she had fun rubbing her smug superiority in their faces, not to listen to them. Lien literally said they can't destroy this Gate and she didn't even listen.

[Seward]

What is this new thing, a carpet of doom?

Lurker.

AD&D had ceilings that drop on you (lurker), stalactites that drop on you (piercer) floors that rise up around you and grapple you (trapper), treasure chests or other objects you stick to and try to eat you (mimic), and stalagmites that spawned sticky arms that dragged you into their mouth (roper).

Most got ported in one fashion or another to 3.5. 3.5 added animated objects. Being grappled by a large persian rug was no joke, they often had constrict. I once had a whole barn attack me....it could get a little crazy. But animated objects aren't sentient, don't eat you or have eyes. This scribbler rogue likes to work with creatures that just PRETEND to be objects.

[danielxcutter]

I think you've been ninja'd like at least three times, sadly.

[Metastachydium]

I once had a whole barn attack me....

Was it white?

[MoonCat]

The creature that fell on V is likely a Lurker Above, one of several Gygaxian creations that depended on adventurers rushing ahead without checking the ceiling (like V did.)

Yeah, so why does the title say below? It's neither a reference to the actual creature name, nor the situation in-comic.


The creature is called a Lurker. The title is a play on the phrase "look out below".

Why would the phrase 'look out below' be relevant to this comic?


Well, that creature is called a lurker, and its way of attacking is pretty well represented here. There is a variation of this creature called the lurker below that lives underwater instead, but that doesn't make much sense. The only other mention of it I found was a Kraken from World of Warcraft.

Sure, it's lurker. It's clearly represented as attacking from above. Hence my confusion as to the title of the strip.

[elros]

I'm impressed that V was able to hit Serini with a spell that is negated by a reflex save (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resilientSphere.htm). She should have least a +12 bonus (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm), right?

I am also completely onboard with a montage of the Serini chase. It would give Elan a chance to complain that he missed it!

[Seward]

I'm impressed that V was able to hit Serini with a spell that is negated by a reflex save (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resilientSphere.htm). She should have least a +12 bonus (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm), right?

I am also completely onboard with a montage of the Serini chase. It would give Elan a chance to complain that he missed it!

Saving throws in this strip pretty much work by rule of drama. They in no way come even close to realistic outcomes rolling similar numbers of dice, not really ever.

Although I wouldn't put it past Serini to deliberately fail just to show off her dim-door wand as a way to taunt V. After all...the outcome was V wrapped up when rashly pursuing her as a result of being taunted....


Was it white?

No. But it was also a lot bigger than a Gazebo. Also a stone barn, which added a bit to the diffculty.

Being trampled by a barn while the picket fence tries to grapple you is just part of the joys of mid-level 3.5 adventuring. It got us while we were trying to determine if the iron statue in the square was going to attack or was just a decoy.....

[Kantaki]

Lurker.

AD&D had ceilings that drop on you (lurker), stalactites that drop on you (piercer) floors that rise up around you and grapple you (trapper), treasure chests or other objects you stick to and try to eat you (mimic), and stalagmites that spawned sticky arms that dragged you into their mouth (roper).

Most got ported in one fashion or another to 3.5. 3.5 added animated objects. Being grappled by a large persian rug was no joke, they often had constrict. I once had a whole barn attack me....it could get a little crazy. But animated objects aren't sentient, don't eat you or have eyes. This scribbler rogue likes to work with creatures that just PRETEND to be objects.

How did it go?
Your party comes to a house.
The inhabitants are monsters that will eat you.
The floor is a monster that will eat you.
The ceiling is a monster that will eat you.
The walls are monsters that will eat you.
The furniture is monsters that will eat you.
The treasure is monsters that will eat you.
The clothes on the floor are a monster that will eat you.
Survived everything? Well done.
The house is a monster that will eat you.

[danielxcutter]

...Does Animate Objects even work on a barn? Isn't it too big?

[Metastachydium]

No. But it was also a lot bigger than a Gazebo. Also a stone barn, which added a bit to the diffculty.

Being trampled by a barn while the picket fence tries to grapple you is just part of the joys of mid-level 3.5 adventuring. It got us while we were trying to determine if the iron statue in the square was going to attack or was just a decoy.....

Well, you're lucky it wasn't an iron barn a stone decoy statue! Hardness is a pain.


...Does Animate Objects even work on a barn? Isn't it too big?

Colossal animated objects are a thing, you know.

[danielxcutter]

Well, you're lucky it wasn't an iron barn a stone decoy statue! Hardness is a pain.

I've heard that animated adamantine objects are grossly under-CRed.


Colossal animated objects are a thing, you know.

Yeah, but with the spell I think you need an insanely high CL.

[Kantaki]

...Does Animate Objects even work on a barn? Isn't it too big?

I think there was a mimic variant that looked like buildings.
At least I remember something like that from a article on silly D&D monsters.

[Metastachydium]

I've heard that animated adamantine objects are grossly under-CRed.

Ouch.


Yeah, but with the spell I think you need an insanely high CL.

32, if I'm not mistaken. (Maybe a (bunch of red) wizard(s) did it?)

[bunsen_h]

How did it go?
Your party comes to a house.
The inhabitants are monsters that will eat you.
The floor is a monster that will eat you.
The ceiling is a monster that will eat you.
The walls are monsters that will eat you.
The furniture is monsters that will eat you.
The treasure is monsters that will eat you.
The clothes on the floor are a monster that will eat you.
Survived everything? Well done.
The house is a monster that will eat you.

Ah, Castle Heterodyne (https://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20070725). "Avoid any floorstone marked in white. It is a trap that will kill you. Do not stand under any part of the ceiling marked in white. It is a trap that will kill you..."

[Peelee]

Serini thinking that she's right doesn't change the fact that if she succeeds it really will likely result in the end of this world at minimum.

Funny, you could have made that exact same argument about the Order destroying Girard's Gate. And yet.

Either intentions matter, and you should cut her a break, or intentions don't matter and you should be much harsher on the Order for directly blowing up two Gates. Instead, you are saying the protagonists should get every benefit of every doubt and it sucks for anyone else. This may be surprising, but I have an issue with that massive double standard.

[137beth]

I expect Elan will now be able to talk down Sunny. How the rest of the order deals with Serini is probably going to surprise me.

[Metastachydium]

Funny, you could have made that exact same argument about the Order destroying Girard's Gate. And yet.

To be fair, the Order kind of knew from Girard's device that Kraagor's Gate is still standing and knew for sure that Xykon will arrive to Girard's first.


Either intentions matter, and you should cut her a break, or intentions don't matter and you should be much harsher on the Order for directly blowing up two Gates.

(To be fair (again), in the strictest sense, Dorukan's wasn't destroyed by the Order, but rather by Elan and the rest of the Order was pissed (for various reasons, admittedly).)


Instead, you are saying the protagonists should get every benefit of every doubt and it sucks for anyone else. This may be surprising, but I have an issue with that massive double standard.

That's a good point, of course. That said, it would be easier to sympathize with Serini if she wasn't an incredibly smug jerk.

[Peelee]

To be fair, the Order kind of knew from Girard's device that Kraagor's Gate is still standing and knew for sure that Xykon will arrive to Girard's first.

But they didn't know it would trigger a Godsmoot to vote on whether to destroy the world, and further didn't know they were transporting an agent to hijack said moot to ensure the vote went to destruction. Their intent on both was good, but had "this will probably make the world blow up" consequences. And since I don't mind giving them the benefit of the doubt for their intentions, I can hardly deny that same courtesy to Serini.

[Rogan]

But they didn't know it would trigger a Godsmoot to vote on whether to destroy the world, and further didn't know they were transporting an agent to hijack said moot to ensure the vote went to destruction. Their intent on both was good, but had "this will probably make the world blow up" consequences. And since I don't mind giving them the benefit of the doubt for their intentions, I can hardly deny that same courtesy to Serini.

On the other hand, the negative consequences of the orders actions were nearly impossible to learn beforehand.
Serini only needs to talk to the order to get new Intel. If she can / should trust the info she would learn this way is another question.

[Metastachydium]

But they didn't know it would trigger a Godsmoot to vote on whether to destroy the world, and further didn't know they were transporting an agent to hijack said moot to ensure the vote went to destruction. Their intent on both was good, but had "this will probably make the world blow up" consequences. And since I don't mind giving them the benefit of the doubt for their intentions, I can hardly deny that same courtesy to Serini.

Again, fair, but like I said, the problem with Serini isn't the sum of her intentions. It's her attitude.
The Order tries to do its best and often fails; Serini does what she think is the best and is wrong in a number of ways. That's not an issue. But the Order's shortcomings don't stem from them thinking they are always the smartest fellows in the room.

[Raven777]

While I presume Rich plans for this to flow naturally once it’s all done, I’m getting a little tired of “Serini counters everything the Order does”. Hopefully this chase ends before next Halloween.

That being said I chuckled at V’s line in the last panel.

Serini is putting forth an excellent demonstration for the old balance argument that anything a sufficiently prepared Wizard can do, a sufficiently prepared Skillmonkey can replicate or counter with WBL and UMD. In short: she's playing an effective Rogue.

[zinycor]

Oh come on, that's not what I meant at all and I'm pretty sure most of you know that. If she actually does what she plans to do now, that removes the Order from the equation and results in at minimum the gods unmaking the world, that was my point; whether she changes plans after learning the potential results is a different matter entirely.

Besides, I really don't think she's going to listen to the Order unless it's crammed down her throat, possibly with a feeding tube. The only reason she talked with the paladins is because they woke up and because she had fun rubbing her smug superiority in their faces, not to listen to them. Lien literally said they can't destroy this Gate and she didn't even listen.

Yeah... so? it's the beggining of the arc, there needs to be some drama from somewhere...

[Larsaan]

Given that Serini's whole shtick is "monsters are people too", am I the only one who's put off by how willing she is to use them as meat shields and fodder? Sure, Sunny should be able to take care of herself, but the Order could very easily kill Franklin and this lurker (and don't have much incentive not to).

[Peelee]

On the other hand, the negative consequences of the orders actions were nearly impossible to learn beforehand.
Serini only needs to talk to the order to get new Intel. If she can / should trust the info she would learn this way is another question.
Yes, but talking to them weakens her position. If she talked to them, then she would have rebuffed them and they would be more likely to be prepared to fight her. As is, they were wholly unprepared to fight her and she had a significantly more advantageous position. She was doing the best to defend her Gate from all threats, such as from the people who blew up two Gates. Again, hard to fault her for that intent.

Again, fair, but like I said, the problem with Serini isn't the sum of her intentions. It's her attitude.
The Order tries to do its best and often fails; Serini does what she think is the best and is wrong in a number of ways. That's not an issue. But the Order's shortcomings don't stem from them thinking they are always the smartest fellows in the room.
V certainly thought that when they cast Familicide, which completely decimated Girard's Gate's defenses. And then they figured they knew best when they destroyed Girard's Gate, despite that this directly triggered a vote on whether to pre-emptively destroy the world. Roy certainly figured he knew best when they toted a vampire around the world, delivering him just in time to sabotage said vote.

Again, hard to blame Serini when I don't blame the Order.

Given that Serini's whole shtick is "monsters are people too", am I the only one who's put off by how willing she is to use them as meat shields and fodder? Sure, Sunny should be able to take care of herself, but the Order could very easily kill Franklin and this lurker (and don't have much incentive not to).

Being people means they can make choices for themselves. They're willing to help Serini. She's not a slavemaster. She's their ally, and they may be willing to die for the cause. That's their choice.

[Vikenlugaid]

Your mileage may vary. I, for one, feel like they're showing more competence here than in the second half of the Dining Room fight. They had a strong start with the chaos giraffes, but as soon as the vampires used Dispel Magic (a pretty predictable tactic) they were dead in the water. I don't necessarily feel they were incompetent in that fight, but I don't think they displayed any worse decision-making here. And in fact, I feel they've gotten demonstratably better at thinking on their feet and improvising.

And all of this having the tactical leader KO im the first round.

[Psyren]

Yeah, so why does the title say below? It's neither a reference to the actual creature name, nor the situation in-comic.

They're underground, so the Lurker Above is technically Below. Don't overthink it :smallsmile:


Given that Serini's whole shtick is "monsters are people too", am I the only one who's put off by how willing she is to use them as meat shields and fodder? Sure, Sunny should be able to take care of herself, but the Order could very easily kill Franklin and this lurker (and don't have much incentive not to).

You are not, no.

[Peelee]

Your mileage may vary. I, for one, feel like they're showing more competence here than in the second half of the Dining Room fight. They had a strong start with the chaos giraffes, but as soon as the vampires used Dispel Magic (a pretty predictable tactic) they were dead in the water. I don't necessarily feel they were incompetent in that fight, but I don't think they displayed any worse decision-making here. And in fact, I feel they've gotten demonstratably better at thinking on their feet and improvising.


And all of this having the tactical leader KO im the first round.

Aye. They're doing dang well for such a difficult fight, and continuously doing better. They have Serini going purely on the defensive, she's on the run.

[Vikenlugaid]

By competent I mean “able to do crap”. They… haven’t actually done much because Serini keeps pulling out contingencies out her ass. Ten quatloos says that another of her monsters is trying to eat the rest of the Order right now.

They acomplished don't being captured by an epic ambusher, I don't think that is "a crap".

[Rogan]

Yes, but talking to them weakens her position. If she talked to them, then she would have rebuffed them and they would be more likely to be prepared to fight her. As is, they were wholly unprepared to fight her and she had a significantly more advantageous position. She was doing the best to defend her Gate from all threats, such as from the people who blew up two Gates. Again, hard to fault her for that intent.


It would probably be even more easier for Serini to capture the order by faking cooperation first. Agree to talk to them, hear them out and use an ambush / drugs in their drinks / some other trap when they trust her.

The way she executed her trap, the order knew they were running into an ambush when they entered the cave. They failed to detect the kind of trap Serini had prepared and what kind of resources she could use.
But Serini herself was not that essential to the ambush. Any other ranged attacker could have taken her place.
So knowing Sereni is alive and involved would not have helped the order that much. And Serini could have outed herself to the order, without telling them about her sunny son.

[Peelee]

It would probably be even more easier for Serini to capture the order by faking cooperation first.

Which is probably what she thought they were doing. Either way is a risk, so she opted for "not give them any information" rather than "give them. Information they might use to try to ambush me".

[Rogan]

Which is probably what she thought they were doing. Either way is a risk, so she opted for "not give them any information" rather than "give them. Information they might use to try to ambush me".

That's... actually a fair point, I guess.
On the other hand, I definitely didn't get the impression that Serini thought the order was looking forward to destroy the gates, only that they were willing to do so to stop X. So if the order was not out to destroy the gate right away and they are willing to work with the paladins (guardians of the gate of Soon), why would Serini assume the order would want to attack her?

[Seward]

Yeah, but with the spell I think you need an insanely high CL.

Well thankfully we didn't have to fight whomever animated the barn (and the fence).

The CR for a really big animated object is still middling. If you're at all savvy there are a lot of ways to fight them. They're most dangerous when high hardness at low CR, especially after some FAQ rulings that made them really hard to hurt with energy. They have some oddball weaknesses (really low will save but mindless. If you can find a spell that isn't mind affecting but is vs will, like Sanctuary, they are surprisingly helpless. Blinding them with glitterdust or fog or smoke helps, as does any reflex save type battlefield control spell if you've got any that are big enough (tanglefoot bags work well on smaller ones). They're also literally mindless so easily decoyed by things just able to outrun them, or who have really high AC or are somehow immune to their damage or are summoned expendibles etc.

You do, in the end, though, benefit greatly from just having a fighter who hits hard to actually kill the damn things. They soak a lot of damage, but are easy to hit.

In our case we were an 8thish level party vs a pure melee threat (if one that had some area capability). We took some hits, the spellcasters supported the melees, especially those with adamantine weapons and/or power attack, the archer used up the adamantine arrows he'd been hoarding etc. A lot of cure light wound wands were drained afterwards.

Honestly we were just thankful that it was NOT an Iron Golem encounter. I know it is weird to be relieved to have a barn attack you...

[Metastachydium]

V certainly thought that when they cast Familicide, which completely decimated Girard's Gate's defenses.

And who, exactly, ever defended V's decision to do so? Yes, they are to blame. As would be Serini if her plans here succeeded.


And then they figured they knew best when they destroyed Girard's Gate, despite that this directly triggered a vote on whether to pre-emptively destroy the world.

And they were right. Team Evil capturing a perfectly defenseless Gate would have triggered the same vote.


Roy certainly figured he knew best when they toted a vampire around the world, delivering him just in time to sabotage said vote.

That's simply neither fair, nor true. Roy had his doubts all the way long. It was not an "I can't be wrong because I'm smart and fantastic, you moronic children" kind of thing.

[luagha]

Eh? It's green fluid in a D&D comic that comes in a vial and reacts with a stone floor (so not poison). It's acid. How does it not look like acid?

I was thinking Green Slime in a vial, which is incredibly incredibly dangerous.

[Fyraltari]

And all of this having the tactical leader KO im the first round.
:belkar: Turns out Roy was holding us back all along!
:roy: And, not only am I going to dance on your grave, but I am going to organize a huge for every paladin and law enforcement officer I can find.

[Seward]

I was thinking Green Slime in a vial, which is incredibly incredibly dangerous.

That was my thought too. Especially if it was 1st edition green slime.

[KorvinStarmast]

This may be surprising, but I have an issue with that massive double standard. And thus with most novels, TV shows, and movies. :smallcool:

They have Serini going purely on the defensive, she's on the run. Dare we predict that she's thinking "I've got them right where I want them!" at this point? :smallconfused:

I was thinking Green Slime in a vial, which is incredibly incredibly dangerous. Won't bet against.

[Peelee]

And who, exactly, ever defended V's decision to do so?
I'm not defending Serini. I think she's wrong. I just think she deserves the same understanding and forgiveness we extend to the Order. She certainly hasnt been as detrimental to the safety of the planet as they have, yet she is getting all of the hate for being detrimental to the safety of the planet. Which I think is more than a bit hypocritical.


That's simply neither fair, nor true. Roy had his doubts all the way long. It was not an "I can't be wrong because I'm smart and fantastic, you moronic children" kind of thing.

Belkar, an expert on Evil people, was screaming from the mountaintop that the vampire was bad news. It fell on deaf ears. Not to mention Roy actively hiding the vampirism from the clerics he met in Tinkertown. Because they would have thought the evil creature that shouldn't have been trusted was an evil creature that shouldn't be trusted, the foolish clerics. Good thing Roy knew better.

And, again, I see where Roy was coming from and understand. Just like I do the same for Serini, instead of thinking she is Evil and just a terrible person for daring to oppose the people who blow up Gates because it seems like a good idea at the time.

[Shining Wrath]

Trapper next, I guess. All the things falling from the sky, time for a lethal rug.

I'm going with "this dungeon is full of minions" and it's probably for the best to not chase her.

[Blatt]

The Lurker is going NOM NOM NOM

V must be tasty!!

[Metastachydium]

I'm not defending Serini. I think she's wrong. I just think she deserves the same understanding and forgiveness we extend to the Order. She certainly hasnt been as detrimental to the safety of the planet as they have, yet she is getting all of the hate for being detrimental to the safety of the planet. Which I think is more than a bit hypocritical.

As far as I'm concerned, V gets forgiveness and understanding because the experience and the knowledge of what they did humbled them and they are actively seeking to make amends. I'll most likely warm up to Serini as well once she's off the high horse.


Belkar, an expert on Evil people, was screaming from the mountaintop that the vampire was bad news. It fell on deaf ears. Not to mention Roy actively hiding the vampirism from the clerics he met in Tinkertown. Because they would have thought the evil creature that shouldn't have been trusted was an evil creature that shouldn't be trusted, the foolish clerics. Good thing Roy knew better.

No. Roy didn't think he knew better. He remained conflicted regarding the issue right until it got resolved.
(https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0990.html)


And, again, I see where Roy was coming from and understand. Just like I do the same for Serini, instead of thinking she is Evil and just a terrible person for daring to

I don't think she's Evil. Never did. I do think she's a terrible person, but that's mainly because she's a smug jerks. I don't like smug jerks, do you now?


oppose the people who blow up Gates because it seems like a good idea at the time.

For the umpteenth time, the Order didn't think blowing up Dorukan's was a good idea. Neither did Elan. He's just dumb as a box of mouldy carrots.
Further, like I said, blowing up Girard's Gate was a good idea or, at any rate, it didn't change much.

[Peelee]

No. Roy didn't think he knew better. He remained conflicted regarding the issue right until it got resolved. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0990.html)
You realize you just linked a comic where Roy says "My gut is smarter than his gut", right?

I don't think she's Evil.

Never said you did. I'm not arguing against you. I'm arguing against the general idea out forth by several people which purported multiple claims. Not every person needs to have agreed to each and every claim, I'm just saying "claims like this were level at Serini and not the protagonists and I think that is unfair."

Sure, Serini is smug. I'd also like to see her get k ocked off her high horse. I certainly think she will be. I just don't think it will be only her that needs to see the need to compromise, and that the Order will also have to acknowledge that she has some pretty damn good points that they need to address in order to work together.


For the umpteenth time, the Order didn't think blowing up Dorukan's was a good idea.
I'm glad that we know, without any doubt whatsoever, that Serini has perfect knowledge of everything that happened as we do. Because that means we can blame her instead of realizing that she likely just knows that this group destroyed two Gates and is probably dangerous to her Gate.

[Psyren]

I'm glad that we know, without any doubt whatsoever, that Serini has perfect knowledge of everything that happened as we do. Because that means we can blame her instead of realizing that she likely just knows that this group destroyed two Gates and is probably dangerous to her Gate.

She's sure acting like she has perfect knowledge...



I'm going with "this dungeon is full of minions" and it's probably for the best to not chase her.

The alternative is letting her get away to regroup, and then having her pop out out of a corner again with more infinite-DC sleep darts. It sucks, but "chase the rogue" is probably the better option.

[Metastachydium]

You realize you just linked a comic where Roy says "My gut is smarter than his gut", right?

He's talking about Belkar "Idumpedmywisdomscore" Bitterleaf there. And I'm absolutely certain you didn't miss that the strip's about how "[h]is intuition and intellect are in agreement, yet [he] still remains conflicted."


Never said you did. I'm not arguing against you. I'm arguing against the general idea out forth by several people which purported multiple claims. Not every person needs to have agreed to each and every claim, I'm just saying "claims like this were level at Serini and not the protagonists and I think that is unfair."

Sure, Serini is smug. I'd also like to see her get k ocked off her high horse. I certainly think she will be. I just don't think it will be only her that needs to see the need to compromise, and that the Order will also have to acknowledge that she has some pretty damn good points that they need to address in order to work together.

I'm not sure there's an actual disagreement between you and me, then.


I'm glad that we know, without any doubt whatsoever, that Serini has perfect knowledge of everything that happened as we do. Because that means we can blame her instead of realizing that she likely just knows that this group destroyed two Gates and is probably dangerous to her Gate.

[Shrugs.] I mean, she knew more about how Soon's Gate was destroyed than she had any right to. Plus what Psyren said.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[pendell]

There used to be a Batman TV show starring Adam West. There were always two episodes in every arc. In the first episode, Batman and Robin would be clobbered by the villains of the week and dumped in some unescapable death track. Cue credits.

About 5 minutes into the second episode, they'd be on their feet and capturing the villains because Batman just happened to have the right tool on his utility belt to solve the problem. Dumped in water? Good thing he had a bat-snorkel mask. Throw in sharks? Ah, but he had bat-shark repellent, also on his belt. Throw in laser beams on top of the shark's head? He's got the bat-reflecting surface.

Man always had a plan.

And, in this story, Serini is Batman.

She kinda has to be. She's a rogue. Rogues don't survive solo encounters with high-level adventuring parties unless they're crazy prepared for just about every contingency. Haley's no different. She carries a golf bag's worth of wands and potions for those times she's not backed up by a party wizard or cleric.

So I'm willing to accept everything Serini has done so far as believable. She's got magic items out the wazoo. She has allies in the dungeon she built. Now that she's retreating, she's doing so along what is certainly a planned escape route with obstacles and traps to slow down her pursuers. "Epic-level" isn't just a stat block, after all. It's decades of adventuring experience which have kept her alive this long.

So I don't think any of this is unfair, and it wouldn't surprise me if Serini got away.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Peelee]

She's sure acting like she has perfect knowledge...
Yes, I already agreed that she is being quite smug. :smalltongue:

That aside, saying that is like saying the Order acted like they had perfect knowledge when they blew up Girard's Gate. Which, again, puts both sides on pretty equal footing (barring the smugness).

He's talking about Belkar "Idumpedmywisdomscore" Bitterleaf there. And I'm absolutely certain you didn't miss that the strip's about how "[h]is intuition and intellect are in agreement, yet [he] still remains conflicted."
And yet he still took the vampire to the Godsmoot. Still had no restrictions on the vampire. Still gave the vampire completely free reign to do whatever he wanted to do.

That conflicted feeling counted for jack all - when a decision had to be made, Roy went with what he thought was right. Exactly as Serini is doing. The only two differences are that she is smug about it, and a shocking amount of the readership has a remarkable amount of animosity for her.

[Metastachydium]

And yet he still took the vampire to the Godsmoot. Still had no restrictions on the vampire. Still gave the vampire completely free reign to do whatever he wanted to do.

That conflicted feeling counted for jack all - when a decision had to be made, Roy went with what he thought was right.

My point is that he had his doubts and accordingly, what motivated him wasn't "look at me, I'm smarter than you all" but simply the hope that his best friend is in there.


The only two differences are that she is smug about it, and a shocking amount of the readership has a remarkable amount of distaste for her.

I think there might be a connection of the causal sort between the two.

[Peelee]

My point is that he had his doubts and accordingly, what motivated him wasn't "look at me, I'm smarter than you all" but simply the hope that his best friend is in there.
Serini clearly has doubts as well (eg, "[existing] was nice while it lasted"). We don't see her whole picture because we've spent much less time with her, and almost all that we have spent has been her making pretty good points about why she has reason to doubt the paladins and the Order would be good allies.

I think there might be a connection of the causal sort between the two.
I envy your optimism.

[Rogan]

And yet he still took the vampire to the Godsmoot. Still had no restrictions on the vampire. Still gave the vampire completely free reign to do whatever he wanted to do.


Roy did check on Durkon* to hear his prayers. Roy didn't let the vampire do whatever he wanted, he was with him most of the time, especially in tinkertown. He was forced to leave Durkon at the Godsmoot, but to the best of his knowledge, the creed would take care of the Vampire to stop him from evil doings.
It didn't work out as planned, but which kind of reasonable precautions would you suggest on top of the things Roy already did?

[Metastachydium]

Serini clearly has doubts as well (eg, "[existing] was nice while it lasted"). We don't see her whole picture because we've spent much less time with her,

Which is why I said earlier that I might very well warm up to her if we get to see her more relatable side a bit more.


and almost all that we have spent has been her making pretty good points about why she has reason to doubt the paladins and the Order would be good allies.

Many of those points were not exactly what I'd describe as good. ("You are dumb children not as smart as Auntie Serini"; "you can't trust paladins with not destroying the world out of sheer pride" etc.).


I envy your optimism.

At any rate, that's why I don't like her, and I'm probably not the only one. Sadly enough, yes, there are other plausible explanations as well.

[Peelee]

Many of those points were not exactly what I'd describe as good. ("You are dumb children not as smart as Auntie Serini"; "you can't trust paladins with not destroying the world out of sheer pride" etc.).
What we saw was more like:
"You destroyed a Gate so I don't trust you to not destroy another."
"That was only because we were losing!"
"That does not fill me with confidence like you seem to think it should."

She has good reason. The Order has good counters. Both things can be true.

[Quizatzhaderac]

SO I've notice the lurker's teeth are positioned optimally to make it look like it has a face, but terrible to actually chew anything it has enveloped.

Which is fine for a parody comic; I only wonder if V will complain, like with the owlbears.

I do find it interesting that she only popped 10-20ft. away from the bubble instead of taking the opportunity to blink 400ft. away. Does she not know her own dungeon that well, or is she luring them to something specific?I think Rich just didn't want all the negative space of jumping to the furthest wall.

Next strip, the world is saved, no explanation! Now that's where saving time leads xDRoy just needs to pants up (https://www.captainsnes.com/2011/07/10/the-grand-finale/) and save the world.

[Peelee]

SO I've notice the lurker's teeth are positioned optimally to make it look like it has a face, but terrible to actually chew anything it has enveloped.

Maybe it doesn't chew, but swallows whole if possible (like a gator) or maybe just gums on its prey and the teeth help prevent escape.

I think Rich just didn't want all the negative space of jumping to the furthest wall.
Aye actual logistics be damned, showing her escape and reappearance in the same panel was great conservation of storytelling.

[Vikenlugaid]

Serini thinking that she's right doesn't change the fact that if she succeeds it really will likely result in the end of this world at minimum.

But she can't know they are the protagonists of this story.
And again, I still think the Order actions will lead to de destruction of this world.

[Vikenlugaid]

Given that Serini's whole shtick is "monsters are people too", am I the only one who's put off by how willing she is to use them as meat shields and fodder? Sure, Sunny should be able to take care of herself, but the Order could very easily kill Franklin and this lurker (and don't have much incentive not to).
Monsters are people, and people can be soldiers too. I am sure Hinjo thinks the paladins are people, and he let them all die at the throne room... And he is undoubtedly Lawful Good.

[Peelee]

So, new question. What was in the vial that Serini threw?

[Vikenlugaid]

That's simply neither fair, nor true. Roy had his doubts all the way long. It was not an "I can't be wrong because I'm smart and fantastic, you moronic children" kind of thing.
Roy with Durkon was exactly the same as Serini here, he could have listened to Belkar but he just didn't trust him, like Serini not listening to the order because she doesn't trust them. Both have reasons not to trust, but were wrong at the end.

[Larsaan]

Being people means they can make choices for themselves. They're willing to help Serini. She's not a slavemaster. She's their ally, and they may be willing to die for the cause. That's their choice.

Well, sure, I'm not saying she's coercing them or anything. I'd just, I dunno, expect a more emotional reaction out of her? From seeing her supposed friends giving up their lives to help her escape, you know?

[Peelee]

Well, sure, I'm not saying she's coercing them or anything. I'd just, I dunno, expect a more emotional reaction out of her? From seeing her supposed friends giving up their lives to help her escape, you know?

I'd be more inclined to agree with you if I saw any of them giving up their lives currently.

[Larsaan]

I'd be more inclined to agree with you if I saw any of them giving up their lives currently.

Give Belkar a moment with those knives. How else do you think he's going to peel that lurker off V?

[Mariele]

I am also completely onboard with a montage of the Serini chase. It would give Elan a chance to complain that he missed it!
*Yakety Sax plays*


Given that Serini's whole shtick is "monsters are people too", am I the only one who's put off by how willing she is to use them as meat shields and fodder? Sure, Sunny should be able to take care of herself, but the Order could very easily kill Franklin and this lurker (and don't have much incentive not to).
I getcha, but personally, I was thinking of this as more *heroic soldier moment where he decides to charge the enemy and save his commander* rather than *evil commander sends his soldiers to die like pawns*. Same outcome, but different perspective and intentions.


Yeah... so? it's the beggining of the arc, there needs to be some drama from somewhere...
Man, don't even bother.

[Peelee]

Give Belkar a moment with those knives. How else do you think he's going to peel that lurker off V?

Again, I'll sympathize with your position once I see it happening.

[Ruck]

As far as I'm concerned, V gets forgiveness and understanding because the experience and the knowledge of what they did humbled them and they are actively seeking to make amends. I'll most likely warm up to Serini as well once she's off the high horse.

That's nice and all, but one of these people concluded from the evidence available that the Order was a threat to her Gate and is trying to neutralize that, and the other committed genocide out of revenge.


And yet he still took the vampire to the Godsmoot. Still had no restrictions on the vampire. Still gave the vampire completely free reign to do whatever he wanted to do.

That conflicted feeling counted for jack all - when a decision had to be made, Roy went with what he thought was right. Exactly as Serini is doing. The only two differences are that she is smug about it, and a shocking amount of the readership has a remarkable amount of animosity for her.

Yeah, I'm not trying to pick on Metastachydium or anybody, I just think these two posts really underline that some significant portion of the opposition to Serini on here, or thinking that what Serini is doing is worse than anything the Order did, is not because of the actual decisions or their consequences, but because she doesn't feel bad about it.

[Peelee]

Yeah, I'm not trying to pick on Metastachydium or anybody, I just think these two posts really underline that some significant portion of the opposition to Serini on here, or thinking that what Serini is doing is worse than anything the Order did, is not because of the actual decisions or their consequences, but because she doesn't feel bad about it.

Agreed. That really gets to me - I said it before a few strips ago, but my understanding is that she's getting a lot of hate because how dare she be uppity.

[Larsaan]

Honestly? Kinda, yeah. I don't dislike Serini for being an antagonist to the Order, certainly I don't think she's a worse person than anyone on Team Evil (except MitD, of course), or the Linear Guild, or the Vector Legion, but I still find those characters more enjoyable to see on page. What aggravates me about her is her consistently low-key rotten attitude.

But no, not because she's uppity, but because she displays a consistent attitude of seeing everyone around her as lesser and dumber than her.

[Ruck]

Honestly? Kinda, yeah. I don't dislike Serini for being an antagonist to the Order, certainly I don't think she's a worse person than anyone on Team Evil (except MitD, of course), or the Linear Guild, or the Vector Legion, but I still find those characters more enjoyable to see on page. What aggravates me about her is her consistently low-key rotten attitude.

But no, not because she's uppity, but because she displays a consistent attitude of seeing everyone around her as lesser and dumber than her.

uppity (adj.) - self-important; arrogant.

So, no, it's not because she's uppity; it's because her attitude is one that could be described as "uppity."

[Larsaan]

Well, if you want to use a strictly dictionary-only definition, sure. But let's not pretend that the word doesn't have a lot of baggage in modern online discourse.

[Ruck]

I am saying that the implications of your criticism aren't fundamentally different from calling her "uppity."

More broadly, I'm not sure what the right word to describe my feelings here is, so I'll say, I find it troubling when people judge others based on attitudes and feelings rather than actions.

[bunsen_h]

Maybe it doesn't chew, but swallows whole if possible (like a gator) or maybe just gums on its prey and the teeth help prevent escape.

Maybe it's like a Venus Fly Trap leaf. It has a few "teeth" around the edge, but those are just to help contain the prey while the trapper works on making a good watertight seal around it. Then it secretes a bath of enzymes to dissolve the nutrients out of the prey, absorbs them, then opens up, letting the indigestible residue drop free.

[Peelee]

Maybe it's like a Venus Fly Trap leaf. It has a few "teeth" around the edge, but those are just to help contain the prey while the trapper works on making a good watertight seal around it. Then it secretes a bath of enzymes to dissolve the nutrients out of the prey, absorbs them, then opens up, letting the indigestible residue drop free.

Which perfectly describes why you might find gold or a magic item after defeating one!

[Potatopeelerkin]

:vaarsuvius: My bubble cannot be burst. It is impervious to physical damage. You circumvented my bubble.

I love V.

Haley has those speedy boots, right? Maybe she could carry Belkar as they run after her (and V flies). That said it might be a bit late to catch her now.

[Edward15]

I mean rogues, specially very high level ones, are like that. And you are forgetting that now she is on the run because how Hailey countered her plan.
Uh, and how do we know that what she's doing isn't another plan? There's a good chance she's leading Hayley, V, and Belkar into a trap.

[Larsaan]

More broadly, I'm not sure what the right word to describe my feelings here is, so I'll say, I find it troubling when people judge others based on attitudes and feelings rather than actions.

There's more than one type of judging. Really, I don't think she's a morally bankrupt person, I think she's an unpleasant person. She's constantly slinging puerile insults, she talks down to everyone around her, she enacts mild physical violence against those she has under her power, and the only person she's shown the slightest bit of dignity towards is Sunny (who she still treats more like a sidekick than anything else).

None of this makes her a villain, of course, although that might be the problem; We expect better of people who are on Team Good. I'm not waiting for Serini to get some sort of "comeuppance", but I do hope her personality flaws are adressed at some point in the comic, in the same way other characters have had their personality flaws adressed in the past.

[Ruck]

There's more than one type of judging. Really, I don't think she's a morally bankrupt person, I think she's an unpleasant person. She's constantly slinging puerile insults, she talks down to everyone around her, she enacts mild physical violence against those she has under her power, and the only person she's shown the slightest bit of dignity towards is Sunny (who she still treats more like a sidekick than anything else).

None of this makes her a villain, of course, although that might be the problem; We expect better of people who are on Team Good. I'm not waiting for Serini to get some sort of "comeuppance", but I do hope her personality flaws are adressed at some point in the comic, in the same way other characters have had their personality flaws adressed in the past.

OK, well, unpleasant personality, I won't really argue with you. Even if I don't find it such, as long as we aren't confusing personality for character, I don't really mind.

For me, though, I don't really think of her personality traits yet as "flaws"; I think of her behavior as the logical extension of what and who she has concluded the Order is/are. Once we see more interaction between them (I am assuming that is inevitable) and she learns the relevant information they have, I would expect her to treat them a little differently. Maybe not less sarcastically, but, you know, perhaps more respectfully.

And as I've said before, I think, I do find it interesting to see a Good person who should be on the side of the Order but has pretty good reasons to oppose them-- hearing her explanation to the paladins was a nice moment of "Oh, yeah, it would look that way from her perspective." I like that in stories, when I'm surprised by a thought process and perspective that's logical but that I hadn't considered before.

[Skull the Troll]

I am saying that the implications of your criticism aren't fundamentally different from calling her "uppity."

More broadly, I'm not sure what the right word to describe my feelings here is, so I'll say, I find it troubling when people judge others based on attitudes and feelings rather than actions.

Uppity can imply a racial connotation that I'm not sure is present in the forums. I think she's a great (temporary?) antagonist but to be a good antagonist you need to be taking the wrong actions for some semblance of the right reasons.

[Ruck]

I am aware of those connotations and while I don't think those specific connotations are what is happening here, I do think the general attitude is still that of "Serini should know her place and it's subservient to the Order," and that's a problem for me. It may not have the racial connotations but it's the same attitude toward her as is expressed in real life by that word.

[Alexandrite]

I feel like the general behavior towards Serini is more "wow, she's annoying". Some might find her attitude funny and not have a problem with it, others might want the Order to knock her out so she'll stop saying things.

I don't think there's such a widespread sentiment of "Serini should know her place and listen to everything the Order says" when it's natural for many readers to empathize more with OotS because they're the ones we've been following this whole time. She's a side character, albeit a very important one, whom we haven't gotten much time to know and is actively unpleasant whenever she's onscreen. It's understandable for people to dislike her without jumping to an extreme such as "most of them think she's being too uppity and should submit to the Order".

People often act and make decisions based on emotion, because they are people. No doubt Serini has better qualities that would make it easier for more people to empathize with her, but so far she hasn't done a whole lot to show them.

[Peelee]

There's more than one type of judging. Really, I don't think she's a morally bankrupt person, I think she's an unpleasant person. She's constantly slinging puerile insults, she talks down to everyone around her, she enacts mild physical violence against those she has under her power, and the only person she's shown the slightest bit of dignity towards is Sunny (who she still treats more like a sidekick than anything else).

You just described several members of the Order of the Stick, interestingly enough. And yet they get passes. Which, I have to note, is exactly the drum that I've been beating.

[danielxcutter]

I dunno if that’s what’s actually happening but it sure feels like you’re conflating the “I don’t like Serini” positions with “I think Serini is baddumbevul and needs to be shown her place and killed” positions.

[Hurkyl]

It's understandable for people to dislike her without jumping to an extreme such as "most of them think she's being too uppity and should submit to the Order".
I don't think he meant that people intentionally and consciously have that attitude, but instead that it's the consequence of a bias: that someone sides against Serini without giving her fair consideration when she conflicts with the Order, because they find her annoying and like the Order.

[Ruck]

I don't think he meant that people intentionally and consciously have that attitude, but instead that it's the consequence of a bias: that someone sides against Serini without giving her fair consideration when she conflicts with the Order, because they find her annoying and like the Order.

That's probably a better way of framing it, yeah. As I believe Peelee has made the point before (and just recently, in fact), the criticisms of Serini could easily be applied to members of the Order, so giving them a pass but not her reeks of bias, conscious or otherwise. And I think part of that bias is that Serini ought to be fundamentally subservient to them-- in the narrative, or in their plans to stop Xykon, or in some other way.

[zinycor]

Am just very surprised at the reception Serini has had... I for one like her, she says what she wants, solves problems by her own hands and is like a mix of Hailey + Belkar.

Very cool in my book.

[BriarHobbit]

I thought that the tiny lurker above was great and enjoyed the comic quite a bit. Serini is still trying to win this fight. She could have teleported out of the Order's sight but instead, she is showing herself. I am not sure why she did not use another Improved Invisibility spell, but I appreciate seeing different strategies in this fight.

[zinycor]

Uh, and how do we know that what she's doing isn't another plan? There's a good chance she's leading Hayley, V, and Belkar into a trap.

I would be absolutely fine with that, in fact it makes sense for that to be the case.

[Hurkyl]

And as I've said before, I think, I do find it interesting to see a Good person who should be on the side of the Order but has pretty good reasons to oppose them-- hearing her explanation to the paladins was a nice moment of "Oh, yeah, it would look that way from her perspective." I like that in stories, when I'm surprised by a thought process and perspective that's logical but that I hadn't considered before.
I found it particularly interesting because I've thought about the "lawful vs chaotic" (well, in a different context, but close enough) conflict to try and work out reasonable reasons to be deeply distrustful of lawful types -- and I mean even when you accept them for who they are rather going Girard's route.

And the strongest among them was that you couldn't trust them not to put some random matter of principle above their own beliefs and interests (or even other principles) in random and bizarre ways, and thus start acting in highly counterproductive ways. And it's very difficult to reason them out of it.

So it was really neat to see Serini applying those very ideas in #1228 when explaining why she can't trust the paladins.

[Carl]

This fight feels like those preschool fights where the other guy makes up new rules on the spot.

They're fighting an epic level rouge, with a pre-prepared set of crazy trick and plans. If it doesn't feel like that Serreni isn't competent.


Lurker.

AD&D had ceilings that drop on you (lurker), stalactites that drop on you (piercer) floors that rise up around you and grapple you (trapper), treasure chests or other objects you stick to and try to eat you (mimic), and stalagmites that spawned sticky arms that dragged you into their mouth (roper).

Most got ported in one fashion or another to 3.5. 3.5 added animated objects. Being grappled by a large persian rug was no joke, they often had constrict. I once had a whole barn attack me....it could get a little crazy. But animated objects aren't sentient, don't eat you or have eyes. This scribbler rogue likes to work with creatures that just PRETEND to be objects.

Could be worse, could have been a gazeebo :p.



As far as Serenni goes. Can she be annoying at times? Sure. She's almost a grmupy granny classic honestly. But she's also one of the members of a group that spent years fixing this problem the first time and who lost one of their own doing so. On top of that it's clear she's got some emotional baggage over the aftermath of Xykon's attack on her. To one degree or another, (despite an interlude where she was wondering around on her own), the gates have been a major part of her existence since before any member of the current order was even born. She's lost friends and seen almost everything they ever worked for obliterated over that long time period. If as a result she's seriously cranky i'll give her some slack.

[Psyren]

I think Rich just didn't want all the negative space of jumping to the furthest wall.

Eh, a split panel would have covered that just fine while allowing her to put a bunch more distance between her and her pursuers.
Unless of course, as suspected, she's staying close-ish to her pursuers because she has more obstacles to lure them into.


And yet they get passes.

I wouldn't call anything the Order went through, individually or collectively, "getting passes."


There's more than one type of judging. Really, I don't think she's a morally bankrupt person, I think she's an unpleasant person. She's constantly slinging puerile insults, she talks down to everyone around her, she enacts mild physical violence against those she has under her power, and the only person she's shown the slightest bit of dignity towards is Sunny (who she still treats more like a sidekick than anything else).

None of this makes her a villain, of course, although that might be the problem; We expect better of people who are on Team Good. I'm not waiting for Serini to get some sort of "comeuppance", but I do hope her personality flaws are adressed at some point in the comic, in the same way other characters have had their personality flaws adressed in the past.

Yeah, that.

[Peelee]

I wouldn't call anything the Order went through, individually or collectively, "getting passes."

Nor would I. I'm talking about people's reactions on the forums. Roy hurls puerile insults all day long, to the point that even the deva who is letting him into Celestia tells him to knock it off. No problem. Serini does it? How dare she. V talks down to people. Well that's just V being V, and Serini is not V, so what's her excuse? Belkar enacts gross physical violence against those he has under his power. What a lovable scamp! Serini does mild? That bitch!

I would absolutely call that "getting passes".

Basically, this:
I don't think he meant that people intentionally and consciously have that attitude, but instead that it's the consequence of a bias: that someone sides against Serini without giving her fair consideration when she conflicts with the Order, because they find her annoying and like the Order.

[Romgor]

Seriously tho, [...] this particular page felt a little like filler-y to me. Am i the only one ?

No, it felt very filler-y. So did that one in the previous book where blackwing pulls out his sunglasses.

On the other hand, some comics like Schlock Mercenary and The Adventures of Dr. McNinja have suddenly wrapped up very quickly when it came to their last chapter or so. It almost felt like the authors were trying to leave the room so to speak after releasing years of lovingly crafted hilarious content for free. So if Rich goes the other direction, I won't mind, I will read anything he wants to write about these characters.

[danielxcutter]

As long as the next few comics aren't also Serini going "nuh uh you didn't tag me" it'll probably be fine.

[Breccia]

Given that Serini's whole shtick is "monsters are people too", am I the only one who's put off by how willing she is to use them as meat shields and fodder?

If you're referring to the Lurker Above, I was under the impression they were nonsentient. If so, I would imagine "monsters are people too" does not apply to something of horse-level intelligence.


I was thinking Green Slime in a vial, which is incredibly incredibly dangerous.

It fizzled when it was exposed to air and stone. Honestly, that should narrow it down. Most acids shouldn't affect most stones, and I'm pretty sure green slime doesn't either. If the fizzling is because it was exposed to air, i.e. a cinematic hissing sound to represent "this stuff is dangerous" then it could also be contact poison -- something Half-Batman would almost certainly know about, have onhand, and throw at what appear to be two targets with crappy Fortitude saving throws. (She was clearly not aiming at Belkar)Dragon Bile is expensive, but what else would you spend the money on when the world's about to end? I think we can safely rule out the standard nearly-no-damage acid, as she's literally be better off throwing vials of ink against their hit points. But considering she likely has her own literal homebrew, it could be super acid.

I mentally ruled out poison gas. The fumes didn't seem thick enough and everyone ran away from the effect. And I handwave the possibility it was a random dud.

It could also be something more exotic I don't know about, of course.

[danielxcutter]

I thought acid does react with rocks.

[Oromin]

I thought acid does react with rocks.

It strongly depends on the particular acid and the particular rock. Ceramic materials, like rocks, are usually pretty resistant, which is why you can usually store acids in a glass bottle. Some rocks are less so. Most notably limestone. Thus I choose to believe this is multidimensional limestone.

[Metastachydium]

What we saw was more like:
"You destroyed a Gate so I don't trust you to not destroy another."
"That was only because we were losing!"
"That does not fill me with confidence like you seem to think it should."

She has good reason. The Order has good counters. Both things can be true.

"You'll destroy the last Gate and erase everyone out of existence just because you're sore losers" is not as good an argument as you present it as. As for the Order, though, I agree. She has no reason to trust them.


Roy with Durkon was exactly the same as Serini here, he could have listened to Belkar but he just didn't trust him, like Serini not listening to the order because she doesn't trust them. Both have reasons not to trust, but were wrong at the end.

I've already addressed this and won't do it again.


That's nice and all, but one of these people concluded from the evidence available that the Order was a threat to her Gate and is trying to neutralize that, and the other committed genocide out of revenge.

Yes, V's the most terrible mass murderer in the history of the Stickverse and Serini isn't as of now. But that's beside the point. Acknowledging that they were wrong, feeling guilt &c. makes V relatable. Once Serini will show a more healthy attitude than "I'm smarter than you and everyone dumb children" she'll be relatable as well, but I have difficulty sympathizing with smug jerks.
To give another example of such a setup: do you find Eugene more relatable than V because (other than the usual adventurer kills) he only ever killed one person and that out of accident.


Yeah, I'm not trying to pick on Metastachydium or anybody, I just think these two posts really underline that some significant portion of the opposition to Serini on here, or thinking that what Serini is doing is worse than anything the Order did, is not because of the actual decisions or their consequences, but because she doesn't feel bad about it.

To be fair, I also think the arguments he peppered the paladins with are mostly bovine excrement.


It strongly depends on the particular acid and the particular rock. Ceramic materials, like rocks, are usually pretty resistant, which is why you can usually store acids in a glass bottle. Some rocks are less so. Most notably limestone. Thus I choose to believe this is multidimensional limestone.

Yay to chemistry!

[Liquor Box]

Funny, you could have made that exact same argument about the Order destroying Girard's Gate. And yet.


and yet...

people (including you) actually did make that argument. Indeed, that is effectively the argument Serini is making to justify her actions.

Why does Serini get a pass? Either intent matters or it doesn't.


Yeah, I'm not trying to pick on Metastachydium or anybody, I just think these two posts really underline that some significant portion of the opposition to Serini on here, or thinking that what Serini is doing is worse than anything the Order did, is not because of the actual decisions or their consequences, but because she doesn't feel bad about it.

Are you able to be more specific here. Who has said that what Serini did was worse than anything the Order has done?

To use the V famliacide example, most people would agree it was an awful thing to do. I think most people would agree that lots of things members of the Order have done are either wrong, or not a good idea (even based on what they knew). It seems to me that the pass is being given by the people who are vehemently denying that Serini is making a mistake (based on what she knows).

Is there an example that you are thinking of?


Hah! Belkar always gets the best punchlines.

Belkar is the funniest character I reckon, and my favourite.

[Linworm]

Nor would I. I'm talking about people's reactions on the forums. Roy hurls puerile insults all day long, to the point that even the deva who is letting him into Celestia tells him to knock it off. No problem. Serini does it? How dare she. V talks down to people. Well that's just V being V, and Serini is not V, so what's her excuse? Belkar enacts gross physical violence against those he has under his power. What a lovable scamp! Serini does mild? That bitch!

I would absolutely call that "getting passes".

Probably because context matters.

Roy doesn't hurl puerile insults like Serini does, what he does is troll, taunt and burn, always with a certain degree of intelligence, which is different from Serini's juvenile "you stinking dummy face!" childish attacks.
V talks down to people but is also open to understanding should the enemy attempt at parley, which Serini has proven incapable of no matter their clear desire to sit down and talk.
Belkar is Belkar. He IS an evil character, a sociopath that doesn't care about the suffering of others. He doesn't get a pass, he's recognized as a bad guy, meaning that Serini doesn't get to escape the same treatment.

And most important of all: the OotS characters have been shown as having good sides that balance or even outweight their cons. They're flawed people who're trying to do better.
Serini so far has been nothing but an unrepentant, undiluted 100% ass, nothing but negative, no surprise her reception isn't exactly being warm.

Maybe in the future she'll come to be a sympathetic and lovable character, but so far the only thing she's earned is the Kubota Treatment.

[Ruck]

Yes, V's the most terrible mass murderer in the history of the Stickverse and Serini isn't as of now. But that's beside the point. Acknowledging that they were wrong, feeling guilt &c. makes V relatable. Once Serini will show a more healthy attitude than "I'm smarter than you and everyone dumb children" she'll be relatable as well, but I have difficulty sympathizing with smug jerks.

I guess my difference is that I don't really need characters to be likeable or relatable if they're compelling. Serini's highly competent and has good reasons for why she's doing what she's doing, and that makes her interesting to me.

But that might be besides the point. The point might be that even "smug jerk," I think, is a matter of perception; as Peelee pointed out, the Order (particularly Roy and Vaarsuvius) can be smug jerks, but readers like them more and spend more time with them, so they're more inclined to give the Order a pass on that behavior. They're certainly less inclined to give someone who's opposing the Order a pass on that behavior. And that double standard-- and your comment about V feeling bad about Familicide-- just reflects my earlier comment regarding judging people for their actions, instead of how they feel about those actions afterward, or whether we like them enough previously to give them a pass for harmful actions.

Maybe I just don't find Serini to be a smug jerk. Maybe I relate to being frustrated with well-meaning incompetence. I'm not really sure. Given her goals here, I would honestly find it odd if she was nice and polite.


Are you able to be more specific here. Who has said that what Serini did was worse than anything the Order has done?

To use the V famliacide example, most people would agree it was an awful thing to do. I think most people would agree that lots of things members of the Order have done are either wrong, or not a good idea (even based on what they knew). It seems to me that the pass is being given by the people who are vehemently denying that Serini is making a mistake (based on what she knows).

Is there an example that you are thinking of?

No, I don't have an example of anyone explicitly saying that what Serini is doing is worse than Famlicide. But I do think the attitudes towards her from her critics are reflective of her being judged more harshly than the Order has been or would be judged for similar actions.

[Liquor Box]

No, I don't have an example of anyone explicitly saying that what Serini is doing is worse than Famlicide. But I do think the attitudes towards her from her critics are reflective of her being judged more harshly than the Order has been or would be judged for similar actions.

I wasn't asking for an example of that in particular. Just any example of the "similar actions" where Serini is being judges more harshly than the Order.

[Metastachydium]

I guess my difference is that I don't really need characters to be likeable or relatable if they're compelling. Serini's highly competent and has good reasons for why she's doing what she's doing, and that makes her interesting to me.

Maybe I have difficulty finding a character whose smugness annoys me not only unrelatable but also less than compelling? And it's not just about Serini. See my comment on Eugene.


But that might be besides the point. The point might be that even "smug jerk," I think, is a matter of perception; as Peelee pointed out, the Order (particularly Roy and Vaarsuvius) can be smug jerks,

That's not what readers like them for, I'd assume.


but readers like them more and spend more time with them

That's of particular importance here. We see them being jerks and we see them being not jerks. Like I said a couple of times, I'd probably like Serini a lot more if she wasn't as smug as she is in pretty much all her scenes thus far.


Maybe I just don't find Serini to be a smug jerk.

That's on you.


Maybe I relate to being frustrated with well-meaning incompetence.

How 'bout well-meaning questionable competence (v. Serini)?


I'm not really sure. Given her goals here, I would honestly find it odd if she was nice and polite.

Personally, I tend to find polite antagonists more compelling than smug antagonists, and what I like more about the latter is them getting punched in their smug face.

[zinycor]

I don't understand... Do people only want likeable characters?

[Metastachydium]

I don't understand... Do people only want likeable characters?

That's an interesting concept, in fact, but what I mean is that no one should expect me to like a character whom I don't find likeable.

[Oromin]

It fizzled when it was exposed to air and stone. Honestly, that should narrow it down. Most acids shouldn't affect most stones, and I'm pretty sure green slime doesn't either.

Fizzing on contact with air indicates either dissolved gas (like soda) or a volatile liquid (any number of organics). Fizzing on contact with the stone suggests a reaction producing gas (all sorts of possibilities). If this was real life the biggest hint would be the color. Very very few liquids are green. I'll leave the D&D speculation to the experts cause I don't know that stuff. I'm going to imagine it's Marble's reagent :)

[Metastachydium]

Very very few liquids are green. I'll leave the D&D speculation to the experts cause I don't know that stuff. I'm going to imagine it's Marble's reagent :)

Case closed! All acid (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0182.html) is Marble's reagent!

[Hardcore]

I thought it was just tanglefoot vial

[danielxcutter]

First of all you mean tanglefoot bags. And judging by how different they are from what Miko used… nah.

[Shining Wrath]

She's sure acting like she has perfect knowledge...



The alternative is letting her get away to regroup, and then having her pop out out of a corner again with more infinite-DC sleep darts. It sucks, but "chase the rogue" is probably the better option.

Chasing her results in something bad ... what's that phrase again ... oh, yeah, "Split the Party". Commonly preceded by "Don't" in proverb. She's got a one round of running lead, in a dungeon she knows the layout of and the party doesn't, and which is populated with her allies of unknown lethality. A beholder is not a minor threat to 3 15th-ish level adventurers, and there's no proof she doesn't have another one. Or 5. Frankly, Serini by herself with a couple of meat shields to balance out the action economy might be able to take them.


He's talking about Belkar "Idumpedmywisdomscore" Bitterleaf there. And I'm absolutely certain you didn't miss that the strip's about how "[h]is intuition and intellect are in agreement, yet [he] still remains conflicted."



I'm not sure there's an actual disagreement between you and me, then.



[Shrugs.] I mean, she knew more about how Soon's Gate was destroyed than she had any right to. Plus what Psyren said.

Meta-wise, I think that Serini has to eventually ally with the Party, at least to the extent of letting them move forward with their plan to destroy Xykon. That means some sort of communication between them. Sunny may be the intermediary. Or, being a rogue, she may spy / scry on them, hear them talking when they don't know she's there, and realize that they have some points on their side.


So, new question. What was in the vial that Serini threw?

It appears to me to be ooze-like, not merely acid. I agree with those who suggest a vial of green slime (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/dungeons.htm#slimesMoldsAndFungi). Which would slow the party down without actually killing anyone - it would destroy a dagger or two scraping it off, though.

[Dewin Dwl]

... a sufficiently prepared Skillmonkey can replicate or counter with WBL and UMD. In short: she's playing an effective Rogue.

My brain parses those initials as "work-based learning" and "universal media drive" (á la Playstation Portable). I presume that I'm wrong on both counts...

[danielxcutter]

My brain parses those initials as "work-based learning" and "universal media drive" (á la Playstation Portable). I presume that I'm wrong on both counts...

Wealth By Level(how much gold and resources you’re expected to have at each level) and Use Magic Device(activate magical items like scrolls even though you don’t meet the requirements to do it normally).

[KorvinStarmast]

She carries a golf bag's worth of wands and potions for those times she's not backed up by a party wizard or cleric. As a golfer and a D&D player, and one who has played a goodly number of rogues, I love what you did there. :smallsmile:

"Epic-level" isn't just a stat block, after all. It's decades of adventuring experience which have kept her alive this long. Yep.

Give Belkar a moment with those knives. How else do you think he's going to peel that lurker off V? That's my guess also.


And I think part of that bias is that Serini ought to be fundamentally subservient to them-- in the narrative, or in their plans to stop Xykon, or in some other way. That's a stance I can't get behind. (See the point made yet again, by pendell this time, about an adventuring career ending up as epic.
At some point, Giant needs to have Serini grimace and tell V something like "Don't try to tell Granny Toormuck how to suck eggs!" :smallmad:

I don't understand... Do people only want likeable characters? Tension is a thing in stories. Although, if people only want likeable characters, I guess Miko was the perfect case of hate-her-out-of-hand. On second thought, let's not have a Miko digression. :smallconfused:

[Quizatzhaderac]

I think discussing the question "is Serini a good person?" is a red hearing and distraction if the question is "is she a good character?".

I think the real question is how a flawed person makes a good character, and how that is or isn't happening in this case.


Maybe it doesn't chew, but swallows whole if possible (like a gator) or maybe just gums on its prey and the teeth help prevent escape. The fangs aren't positioned for that either.

As you can see it the last panel the fangs are on the other side of the lurker's body from V. They're also fangs rather than chewing teeth.

Thus I choose to believe this is multidimensional limestone.Well, limestone in at least one dimension.
Very very few liquids are green. Acid is always green to chartreuse in campy fiction (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HollywoodAcid).

My guess is this comes from chlorine gas which is green and scary.

[Carl]

That's an interesting concept, in fact, but what I mean is that no one should expect me to like a character whom I don't find likeable.

And this is the key disconnect here thats going on i think. Some people can like a character for reasons unrelated to how likeable they are as a person. it's one of those common dissconnects that can take some discussion before it becomes obvious that it's the issue in play, and i think thats whats been happening here.

[The MunchKING]

Not only that. It's a baby lurker above that hasn't yet grown to the size of a full 6 foot dungeon square.

So between that and Sunny, I'm wondering if the OotS has managed to wander into the nursery/breeding area for these monsters before they go into the "dungeon" proper.


Also, she wasn't trying to do lethal damage to them previously, just knock them out..

They're high level PCs. Even when cast by a high level wizard, there's like a less than 8% chance anyone would be killed (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0847.html). And all those guys walked off two more acid balls in the next comic too.

[danielxcutter]

Vitriolic Sphere’s damage kinda sucks though.

[Metastachydium]

Vitriolic Sphere’s damage kinda sucks though.

Not necessarily. It's the same deal as Acid Arrow: it deals continuing damage and arguably doesn't allow a Ref for half in the first round.

[danielxcutter]

It was updated in Spell Compendium. The old version was totally busted though.

[Metastachydium]

It was updated in Spell Compendium. The old version was totally busted though.

Die, SpC, die! (I keep forgetting it exists anyway.)

[Psyren]

They're high level PCs. Even when cast by a high level wizard, there's like a less than 8% chance anyone would be killed (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0847.html). And all those guys walked off two more acid balls in the next comic too.

I'm aware of how OotS handles hit points, but my point stands. She was intentionally avoiding lethal damage until now. So my vote is that that vial was either a bottled ooze or some variant of a tanglefoot bag.


Chasing her results in something bad ... what's that phrase again ... oh, yeah, "Split the Party". Commonly preceded by "Don't" in proverb. She's got a one round of running lead, in a dungeon she knows the layout of and the party doesn't, and which is populated with her allies of unknown lethality. A beholder is not a minor threat to 3 15th-ish level adventurers, and there's no proof she doesn't have another one. Or 5. Frankly, Serini by herself with a couple of meat shields to balance out the action economy might be able to take them.

I'm aware of this too, but thanks to Serini's stubbornness, Haley has few good choices here. She knows that "mom" is not going to stop trying to pick them off from the shadows if left alone, and she doesn't have the time it would take to depetrify Durkon. (Elan might have been able to get Roy up however.)

[Oromin]

Acid is always green to chartreuse.

My guess is this comes from chlorine gas which is green and scary.

I always just figured it was because most acids look like water. If it's a bright color then people know it's supposed to be something else. Green being a distinctly unnatural color is probably an upside.

I doubt what the vial actually is has been rigorously defined anyway. It's pretty unlikely it matters. Moreover it could be a wholly fictional substance in which case it does whatever the author wants it to and looks however Rich wants.

Guessing is fun though. I can't guess based on info I don't have, and there isn't really a right answer. So I came up with a plausible answer based on what I know. It's wrong (I'd be surprised if anyone else in this thread knows what Marble's reagent is) but I don't think it's any more wrong than any other guess.

[Seward]

It strongly depends on the particular acid and the particular rock. Ceramic materials, like rocks, are usually pretty resistant, which is why you can usually store acids in a glass bottle. Some rocks are less so. Most notably limestone. Thus I choose to believe this is multidimensional limestone.

Once in a past life I was a materials science grad student studying ceramic-metal interfaces.

Ceramics are highly acid resistant as a rule. Rocks vary greatly (my Geology is based on a single survey course taken as a Freshman undergrad) but generally are more reactive (in nature, ceramics are more like inclusions in rocks, rocks aren't usually ceramics, any more than iron ore is the same thing as a bar of iron).

Furthermore a rock found in a cave won't just be a rock. It'll be a dirty rock. Dirt is mostly composed of organics that will in fact react with most acids. The residue would be minerals mostly, although some of them might also react (metallic stuff espcially).

Now D&D geek back on. Green Slimes will eat dead organic matter too and convert it to slime (think wood, leather). It could sizzle on a rock because it is reacting to the dirt on the rock.

I'm sticking to my Green Slime theory :)

[Psyren]

Nor would I. I'm talking about people's reactions on the forums. Roy hurls puerile insults all day long, to the point that even the deva who is letting him into Celestia tells him to knock it off. No problem. Serini does it? How dare she. V talks down to people. Well that's just V being V, and Serini is not V, so what's her excuse? Belkar enacts gross physical violence against those he has under his power. What a lovable scamp! Serini does mild? That bitch!

I would absolutely call that "getting passes".

Oh, you mean Serini was insulting Eugene Greenhilt and the random-rude-lawyer-wizard (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0677.html) too? I must have missed that strip.

[Vikenlugaid]

As long as the next few comics aren't also Serini going "nuh uh you didn't tag me" it'll probably be fine.

And what's the problem with that? When the order was ambushed and then they went "nuh uh, you didn't tag us" I din't see you complaining. So the order can counter Serini but Serini is not allowed to counter the order...

[Shining Wrath]

A good example of a totally unlikable person who made a likable character: Darth Vader. No one would want Darth as a brother - in - law or a next door neighbor, but I saw trick-or-treaters dressed as him, nearly 40 years after the last movie he appeared in.

Whether or not you would want to have Serini as a neighbor is different than whether or not she serves The Giant's purposes.

[bunsen_h]

It strongly depends on the particular acid and the particular rock. Ceramic materials, like rocks, are usually pretty resistant, which is why you can usually store acids in a glass bottle. Some rocks are less so. Most notably limestone. Thus I choose to believe this is multidimensional limestone.

Hydrofluoric acid will dissolve silicate minerals, but it's a very slow process even when the rock is finely powdered and the reaction is done at boiling-water temperatures. It also dissolves glass, still pretty slowly. It's usually stored in plastic bottles, though HF gas is sometimes stored in cylinders made of alloys chosen to be unreactive with it. Since HF also causes severe chemical burns to flesh, which are painless initially, it has to be handled extremely carefully.

Once, when I was working for a software company, one of the salesthings came to me and demanded that I come up with a chemical that would make rock dissolve away, so a prospective client could use it for mineral exploration. (No explosions! Environmentally friendly! You're a chemist, right?) I had to explain to him that there was no such thing... an uphill slog, especially as he was expecting to get a million-dollar contract for it. To this day, I haven't the faintest idea why he -- doing sales for a software company -- had gotten into that nonsense. When the company folded a year or so later, he was peeved that all of the other salespeople had gotten commissions on their final paycheques, but he hadn't. It was because in his entire time with the company, he hadn't made a single sale. It's my speculation that he'd actually cost the company a few contracts, by showing up at client meetings and saying such blindingly stupid things that he scared the clients away. Saying blindingly stupid things was kind of his thing.


Fizzing on contact with air indicates either dissolved gas (like soda) or a volatile liquid (any number of organics). Fizzing on contact with the stone suggests a reaction producing gas (all sorts of possibilities). If this was real life the biggest hint would be the color. Very very few liquids are green. I'll leave the D&D speculation to the experts cause I don't know that stuff. I'm going to imagine it's Marble's reagent :)

I've a vague recollection of using green chromium oxide (Cr2O3) dissolved in concentrated sulfuric acid for some tough glassware-cleaning jobs.

I'm not convinced that what we're seeing in the strip represents a reaction, rather than the liquid fuming or just being noxious in an aerosol kind of way -- spores, or something like that. It could even be a harmless (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0098.html) attractant (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0192.html) of some kind, intended to get the attention of the next few monster "traps".

[Metastachydium]

I always just figured it was because most acids look like water. If it's a bright color then people know it's supposed to be something else. Green being a distinctly unnatural color is probably an upside.

Hey! Green is as natural a colour as it gets.


(I'd be surprised if anyone else in this thread knows what Marble's reagent is)

Isn't it just watered-up hydrocloric acid with some copper salt tossed in?

[Skull the Troll]

You know, if this is a cave with stalactites and stalagmites, then presumably the stone is all limestone. If not then Serini has a LOT of ropers and piercers. Plus you know... that business with the Roc. We dont need a repeat of that.

[bunsen_h]

I'm aware of this too, but thanks to Serini's stubbornness, Haley has few good choices here. She knows that "mom" is not going to stop trying to pick them off from the shadows if left alone, and she doesn't have the time it would take to depetrify Durkon. (Elan might have been able to get Roy up however.)

I'm guessing that Elan's next move will be to ask Sunny if it's okay if he just stands over with his friends and sings a bit (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1178.html).


(I'd be surprised if anyone else in this thread knows what Marble's reagent is)

I've used a number of kinds of etchant, but I had to look that one up. Even if I'd encountered it before, I'm terrible at associating reactions with names. I did really well in most aspects of organic chem, but that was always my big blocker.

[elecampane]

Yes, I already agreed that she is being quite smug. :smalltongue:

That aside, saying that is like saying the Order acted like they had perfect knowledge when they blew up Girard's Gate. Which, again, puts both sides on pretty equal footing (barring the smugness).

And yet he still took the vampire to the Godsmoot. Still had no restrictions on the vampire. Still gave the vampire completely free reign to do whatever he wanted to do.

That conflicted feeling counted for jack all - when a decision had to be made, Roy went with what he thought was right. Exactly as Serini is doing. The only two differences are that she is smug about it, and a shocking amount of the readership has a remarkable amount of animosity for her.
I don't think you should take smugness out of consideration if said smugness actively hampers one's ability to reason. I mean, the Order specifically didn't act like they knew everything before destroying the Girard gate, they discussed how they don't know enough and don't have time to get more information and voted on how to act. Serini on the other hand had weeks to get info, was offered the info multiple times (latest as recently as several strips ago), but refused all the info and chose to act like she knows the order when she in fact does not.



But she can't know they are the protagonists of this story.
And again, I still think the Order actions will lead to de destruction of this world.
Why can't she? Tarquin knew it right away. Of course, he's much more genre savvy than your average NPC, but we're still canonically in a self-aware parody stick figure comic, she could've figured that out. I'm not holding it against her that she didn't, but she certainly could.


Am just very surprised at the reception Serini has had... I for one like her, she says what she wants, solves problems by her own hands and is like a mix of Hailey + Belkar.

Very cool in my book.
I mean, she specifically doesn't solve problems with her own hands, she solves it with others' hands (and paws and tentacles and pseudopods and eyes).

To that point -- we only saw Serini's competence when she successfully devised and managed the construction of the dungeon around this gate, and when she took out the paladins. She herself had only hit people in the Order four times (2 darts at Roy, 1 bolt at V, a potpourri at Belkar) out of her 15+ attacks, she got her ass handed to her by both Xykon and Haley, she babbled and blew her invisibility, it seems she severely overestimated her power vs the Order's power, she refused the information (about the Godsmoot) that is crucial to her own stated goal of protecting the world, and of course she endangered the whole world by not keeping the super secret info on the gates' location in a safe place or destroying the info altogether, but instead carrying in with her in a diary, which led Xykon to all the gates after Lirian's

Do we even know if she's an epic rogue, or do people just assume she's one because her teammates are epic?
For someone with that amount of sass she certainly doesn't show enough to back it up, I think. If she was as cool as she says she is, she would've captured the Order by now.

And as far as likable/unlikable character discourse goes, Xykon is the most unrepentantly depraved in the comic, but to me still somehow more likeable as a character than Serini.
And maybe that goes to another point I wanted to make. Multiple people earlier said that she doesn't make the Order look incompetent, but for one reason I disagree with it. She indeed doesn't make them look incompetent in a fight, but she makes them look incompetent in their job. The protagonist's job is to move the story forward and to achieve at least some goals. Currently her attempt to stall the Order had taken up four and a half (real-life) months, and still counting. Arguably, nothing of real consequence yet happened besides the Order meeting her and Sunny, and spending some spells. If it were a game, players would be gnashing their teeth by now. As it's a web comic, it just feels very slow

And as for people being surprised at negative reception she gets, I think it's partially because when someone criticizes her, a number of people come to her defense, and the defense is often whataboutism (like "why didn't you criticize Roy or V about the similar issue") or misinterpretation of the criticism (like claims that "people say Serini should submit to the Order"), which then leads to critics re-iterating their arguments and leads to the illusion that there's a mountain of Serini hate, when in reality it's chiefly just a couple of issues many people have with her (mostly, I think, her toxic and undeserved attitude and her refusal to communicate, that is both unreasonable and counterproductive for her own goals)

[Vikenlugaid]

A good example of a totally unlikable person who made a likable character: Darth Vader. No one would want Darth as a brother - in - law or a next door neighbor, but I saw trick-or-treaters dressed as him, nearly 40 years after the last movie he appeared in.

Whether or not you would want to have Serini as a neighbor is different than whether or not she serves The Giant's purposes.

But when several monsters like Serini one should think she is a totally likable person, not just character. One definetly shouldn't judge her by how she is talking to intruders while fighting them.

[Fyraltari]

A good example of a totally unlikable person who made a likable character: Darth Vader. No one would want Darth as a brother - in - law or a next door neighbor, but I saw trick-or-treaters dressed as him, nearly 40 years after the last movie he appeared in.

Rogue One was nearly forty years ago?!

[Shining Wrath]

I have not seen that one, I was going from Return of the Jedi. I think A New Hope, Empire Strikes Back, and RotJ have far more to do with Darth's popularity than Rogue One.

[Larsaan]

And as for people being surprised at negative reception she gets, I think it's partially because when someone criticizes her, a number of people come to her defense, and the defense is often whataboutism (like "why didn't you criticize Roy or V about the similar issue") or misinterpretation of the criticism (like claims that "people say Serini should submit to the Order"), which then leads to critics re-iterating their arguments and leads to the illusion that there's a mountain of Serini hate, when in reality it's chiefly just a couple of issues many people have with her (mostly, I think, her toxic and undeserved attitude and her refusal to communicate, that is both unreasonable and counterproductive for her own goals)

Oh my god, yes, exactly this. That was carthartic to read, thank you.

[Peelee]

Oh, you mean Serini was insulting Eugene Greenhilt and the random-rude-lawyer-wizard (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0677.html) too? I must have missed that strip.

I have no idea what the point that you're making is supposed to be here.

[Fyraltari]

I have not seen that one, I was going from Return of the Jedi.
Revenge of the Sith was nearly forty years ago?!

I think A New Hope, Empire Strikes Back, and RotJ have far more to do with Darth's popularity than Rogue One.

Heh, fair.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Oh, you mean Serini was insulting Eugene Greenhilt and the random-rude-lawyer-wizard (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0677.html) too? I must have missed that strip.I must assume his job title is "summoner".

[Shining Wrath]

Revenge of the Sith was nearly forty years ago?!


Heh, fair.

Anakin Skywalker is not Darth Vader, and a 30 second appearance at the end of RotS to scream "NOOOOOOOOOOOO" is also not the reason people show up on my porch dressed as Darth carrying a red light saber.

[Ionathus]

For someone with that amount of sass she certainly doesn't show enough to back it up, I think. If she was as cool as she says she is, she would've captured the Order by now.

Point of order: Serini's self-assessment, as far as I can tell from in-comic dialogue, is "an old lady with a blowgun (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1228.html)"


The protagonist's job is to move the story forward and to achieve at least some goals. Currently her attempt to stall the Order had taken up four and a half (real-life) months, and still counting. Arguably, nothing of real consequence yet happened besides the Order meeting her and Sunny, and spending some spells. If it were a game, players would be gnashing their teeth by now. As it's a web comic, it just feels very slow

I mean, sure, if all you care about is plot development. I've been enjoying the jokes, the character details, the staging, and the tactics of these past months.

People complained when Durkon & Roy talked about goblins for two pages recently. But that will be an absolute blip on the radar in the context of a full book. Same thing here. Those are the terms you accept when you read an active webcomic.


I think A New Hope, Empire Strikes Back, and RotJ have far more to do with Darth's popularity than Rogue One.

Sure, but have you seen the Rogue One scene? It can't be hurting his popularity either :smallcool:

[Psyren]

I have no idea what the point that you're making is supposed to be here.

That the Order "got a pass" because they're insulting people who unequivocally deserve it. Serini is not, she's just being ornery.

[Peelee]

That the Order "got a pass" because they're insulting people who unequivocally deserve it. Serini is not, she's just being ornery.

The Order blew up two Gates and then spammed messages to the last Gate saying "HEY. HEY. HEY. HEY. PICK UP. HEY."

Insults are hardly grievous wounds. I'd say they deserve it. Just as Serini deserves what the Order is dishing out.

[Liquor Box]

The Order blew up two Gates and then spammed messages to the last Gate saying "HEY. HEY. HEY. HEY. PICK UP. HEY."

Insults are hardly grievous wounds. I'd say they deserve it. Just as Serini deserves what the Order is dishing out.

I for one don't think that Serini has been unduly insulting to the Order.

She was however needlessly insulting to the paladins, who I don't think had done anything to deserve it. I don't think it would stand out that so much if it were in combat, where insulting banter is expected. But it happened after they were her helpless prisoners. Taunting prisoners isn't really a big deal, but it just seems needlessly antagonistic, like taunting an animal.

[Fyraltari]

That the Order "got a pass" because they're insulting people who unequivocally deserve it. Serini is not, she's just being ornery.
The Order is composed of 33.33% mass-murderers, they deserve some of it. :smalltongue:

[Mariele]

Boy howdy, I think you guys are really blowing this whole "negative reader opinion of Serini" out of proportion here. People think different things about characters. Opinions are inherently subjective. We have an entire range of absolute hatred to absolute love we can feel for a fictional character and that's, of course, going to be related to how we feel about other aspects of the story. Maybe we've gotten attached to the regular crew of characters and have learned to laugh at or overlook their faults, but are less forgiving of those same faults in new characters. That's fine. Totally normal. It took a really long time before I could even slightly enjoy Belkar's screen time, and that's partly because I've gotten used to him and he's grown on me -- if a new, Belkar-like character popped up, I'd find them incredibly unfunny and annoying. It sounds like some of you are trying to turn "I don't particular enjoy it when this character has screen time" to "complex societal issues are driving my intense hatred for this character and everything they stand for" or even "disliking this character is irrational and that must be fixed".


Actually, anyone remember watching Recess as a kid? Remember the episode where the main character (TJ?) hears that the new kid doesn't like him, so he spends the entire episode trying to charm him and win him over? He does all sorts of cool stuff to try to impress him, only for the new kid to basically go "sorry dude, I just don't mesh with you, no hard feelings"? I feel like this "negative reader opinion of Serini" is at about that level. It just ain't that deep, man.


I like Serini. I think she's adding a lot of excitement to the plot and I just think she's fun. I didn't really like that elf chick with the tiger (can't remember her name). I just didn't really mesh with her. And this is all just from a character perspective, as in, who I find enjoyable to read about. If I had to go into who I would actually enjoy the company of in RL, I think we might be limited to Durkon, his mom, and Celia!


Hearing people take personal opinions about a character's likability so seriously is so darn hilarious to me right now, though. I've been rereading some manga I loved as a kid and looking at old message boards about it, and my favorite character (from any of the author's works!) is hands-down the most universally despised character in the entire series. Like, it's not even a competition. They just outright wrote him out of the anime. I guess I just mesh with him and other people don't. Some people think Friends is funny. Some people like the taste of bacon. I can't say I understand those people, but hey, tastes aren't rational, so I'm content to just shrug and laugh when people have different preferences.

[Ruck]

That's on you.

I mean... yeah? Just like it's on you for wanting Serini to get punched in the face for having a reasonable point of view that opposes the Order? I don't have any problems with my own position.


And this is the key disconnect here thats going on i think. Some people can like a character for reasons unrelated to how likeable they are as a person. it's one of those common dissconnects that can take some discussion before it becomes obvious that it's the issue in play, and i think thats whats been happening here.

I do not get the "likeability" thing at all. What does that mean? Nice? Some of the worst things I've seen happen to stories (don't get me started on the later seasons of Parks and Recreation) were when they started buying into their characters being nice (even when they weren't) and thus deserved whatever they wanted, that they were more Special than everyone else in the story's universe.

In drama, different people have different moralities, and that leads them to different decisions, and those moralities and decisions conflict and escalate until they reach a conclusion. Right now, the Order's moral priority is "stop Xykon and enlist Redcloak to seal the Gates"; Serini's is "protect this Gate at all costs." They are coming into conflict. That's good drama to me.


But when several monsters like Serini one should think she is a totally likable person, not just character. One definetly shouldn't judge her by how she is talking to intruders while fighting them.

Ah, but those intruders are the Special People of the story, and therefore deserving of what they want.


Oh, you mean Serini was insulting Eugene Greenhilt and the random-rude-lawyer-wizard (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0677.html) too? I must have missed that strip.

Are you trying to pretend Roy and V don't regularly insult their own teammates? Or that Roy isn't so arrogant he thinks he knows what's going on better than an actual Deva (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html)?


And as for people being surprised at negative reception she gets, I think it's partially because when someone criticizes her, a number of people come to her defense, and the defense is often whataboutism (like "why didn't you criticize Roy or V about the similar issue") or misinterpretation of the criticism (like claims that "people say Serini should submit to the Order"), which then leads to critics re-iterating their arguments and leads to the illusion that there's a mountain of Serini hate, when in reality it's chiefly just a couple of issues many people have with her (mostly, I think, her toxic and undeserved attitude and her refusal to communicate, that is both unreasonable and counterproductive for her own goals)


Oh my god, yes, exactly this. That was carthartic to read, thank you.

I find Serini's approach reasonable (the refusal to communicate with the Order has been covered to death already), and the "undeserved" attitude-- an Epic Rogue who built and has been for decades guarding what is now the last Gate upholding reality thinks she knows best how to maintain it is "undeserved"?-- really just seems like another way to say "uppity" to me.

[Empiar93]

Rogue One was nearly forty years ago?!

I will make a controversial statement: that Vader appearance is Vader as a spectacle, not Vader as a character. Does he even have any lines? He’a there for the “Oh ****” factor.

Darth Vader the tempter, the father, the fallen, is nowhere in sight. So I’d say the point still counts. And yeah kids *might* have dressed up as Vader as a result of that scene but it’s much more likely to be the consequence of nostalgic parents and cultural inertia.

[Fyraltari]

I will make a controversial statement: that Vader appearance is Vader as a spectacle, not Vader as a character. Does he even have any lines? He’a there for the “Oh ****” factor.
That's not really controversial, is it? We all know what fanservice is.

[Carl]

I don't think you should take smugness out of consideration if said smugness actively hampers one's ability to reason. I mean, the Order specifically didn't act like they knew everything before destroying the Girard gate, they discussed how they don't know enough and don't have time to get more information and voted on how to act. Serini on the other hand had weeks to get info, was offered the info multiple times (latest as recently as several strips ago), but refused all the info and chose to act like she knows the order when she in fact does not.



Why can't she? Tarquin knew it right away. Of course, he's much more genre savvy than your average NPC, but we're still canonically in a self-aware parody stick figure comic, she could've figured that out. I'm not holding it against her that she didn't, but she certainly could.


I mean, she specifically doesn't solve problems with her own hands, she solves it with others' hands (and paws and tentacles and pseudopods and eyes).

To that point -- we only saw Serini's competence when she successfully devised and managed the construction of the dungeon around this gate, and when she took out the paladins. She herself had only hit people in the Order four times (2 darts at Roy, 1 bolt at V, a potpourri at Belkar) out of her 15+ attacks, she got her ass handed to her by both Xykon and Haley, she babbled and blew her invisibility, it seems she severely overestimated her power vs the Order's power, she refused the information (about the Godsmoot) that is crucial to her own stated goal of protecting the world, and of course she endangered the whole world by not keeping the super secret info on the gates' location in a safe place or destroying the info altogether, but instead carrying in with her in a diary, which led Xykon to all the gates after Lirian's

Do we even know if she's an epic rogue, or do people just assume she's one because her teammates are epic?
For someone with that amount of sass she certainly doesn't show enough to back it up, I think. If she was as cool as she says she is, she would've captured the Order by now.

And as far as likable/unlikable character discourse goes, Xykon is the most unrepentantly depraved in the comic, but to me still somehow more likeable as a character than Serini.
And maybe that goes to another point I wanted to make. Multiple people earlier said that she doesn't make the Order look incompetent, but for one reason I disagree with it. She indeed doesn't make them look incompetent in a fight, but she makes them look incompetent in their job. The protagonist's job is to move the story forward and to achieve at least some goals. Currently her attempt to stall the Order had taken up four and a half (real-life) months, and still counting. Arguably, nothing of real consequence yet happened besides the Order meeting her and Sunny, and spending some spells. If it were a game, players would be gnashing their teeth by now. As it's a web comic, it just feels very slow

And as for people being surprised at negative reception she gets, I think it's partially because when someone criticizes her, a number of people come to her defense, and the defense is often whataboutism (like "why didn't you criticize Roy or V about the similar issue") or misinterpretation of the criticism (like claims that "people say Serini should submit to the Order"), which then leads to critics re-iterating their arguments and leads to the illusion that there's a mountain of Serini hate, when in reality it's chiefly just a couple of issues many people have with her (mostly, I think, her toxic and undeserved attitude and her refusal to communicate, that is both unreasonable and counterproductive for her own goals)

Let me reiterate somthing, despite a gap in the middle she's been involved in the gate situation since before basically anyone else in the comic was even born, (Jullio and Tarquin's team being possibble exceptions), and certainly longer than any other specific individual has been involved in the gates situation. If she thinks she knows more than everyone about the gates situation, i would in the absence of evidence to the contrary be willing to believe her.

We know there's info she doesn't know, (Godsmoot situation), and there's somthing else she may not know, (Planet in the rifts situation, though i'm not going to write that off as a certainty). But she has no way of knowing this, and for better or worse she's in the position of being the last gates semi-official defender. For better or worse that puts her in the position of having to make a decision, and one piece of wisdom I've allways heard and found sound is: "You can only evaluate your decision on the basis of what you knew at the time". Serreni is at the point where she has to decide on a course of action and based on what she knows and her priorities, (keep the world from being destroyed), it's not a bad decision at all. It's not a good one either, but she's out of good choices at this point.

Now yes there's vital information she doesn't know, but she also doesn't know she doesn't know, and she's a high level rouge, she's used to assuming that someone may be trying to manipulate her, and at this point no one has actually indicated to ehr they might have any information she doesn't already have. The Paladins and the Order both wanting to talk it out is expected. She's never claimed they don't honestly want stop what they see as a potentiol threat to the gates. Trying to talk it out and recruit her is expected behaviour for them.

There's also the question of what she knows. There's clearly gaps in her knowledge, for all we know she's assessing the orders chances on the assumption that the MitD will help Xykon, depending on how powerful he really is it's quite probable that her assesment is acurratte. We know he probably won't fight the order. But she doesn't necessarily know that, even his extra X's painted on doors could be just him being a ditz from her PoV.


As far as her competency. She's a rouge. Even Epic level rouges don't excel at any one single thing. They're strength is their sheer adaptability, and a lot of that applies outside of direct "punch the enemy in the face" situations. So far she's shown that in spades. Hell we don't even know that her current idea isn't just a plan C rather than an outright retreat. In which case the orders really in trouble TBH. If it wasn't for the fact that i'm not convinced Sunny will actual disable Elan and Minnrah on his own imitative i'd say she's doing pretty well with 4/7th's of the order disabled and one more temporarily out of it. So far only Elan and Haley have done anything meaningful vs her and her plans. Thats not bad when the party includes 2 high level primary spell-casters and a pair of high level strong martial types.

Heck, Belkar is going to be completely out of it whilst he free's V. Depending on how long that takes Serreni could easily tap herself with another wand of invisibility and then proceed to dart Haley and Belkar before V gets free. At that point she's pretty much won unless Elan's managed to get the rest of the order back on their feet in that time.

[Peelee]

That's not really controversial, is it? We all know what fanservice is.

Point of order: J. J. Abrams clearly doesn't, yet somehow still tried to make movies based 100% on what he thinks it is.

[Psyren]

The Order is composed of 33.33% mass-murderers, they deserve some of it. :smalltongue:

My point was that if Serini were hurling insults at Eugene I doubt there would be any objections here. (I certainly wouldn't.)



Insults are hardly grievous wounds.

I didn't say they were, but you were asking why some people might not find her crotchety attitude endearing.

[Sutremaine]

I think Serini's actions so far have been reasonable. Sure, she's been a bit of a jerk, but we've yet to see her in a situation where she's having a normal conversation.

[Liquor Box]

Let me reiterate somthing, despite a gap in the middle she's been involved in the gate situation since before basically anyone else in the comic was even born, (Jullio and Tarquin's team being possibble exceptions), and certainly longer than any other specific individual has been involved in the gates situation. If she thinks she knows more than everyone about the gates situation, i would in the absence of evidence to the contrary be willing to believe her.

We know there's info she doesn't know, (Godsmoot situation), and there's somthing else she may not know, (Planet in the rifts situation, though i'm not going to write that off as a certainty). But she has no way of knowing this, and for better or worse she's in the position of being the last gates semi-official defender. For better or worse that puts her in the position of having to make a decision, and one piece of wisdom I've allways heard and found sound is: "You can only evaluate your decision on the basis of what you knew at the time". Serreni is at the point where she has to decide on a course of action and based on what she knows and her priorities, (keep the world from being destroyed), it's not a bad decision at all. It's not a good one either, but she's out of good choices at this point.

Now yes there's vital information she doesn't know, but she also doesn't know she doesn't know, and she's a high level rouge, she's used to assuming that someone may be trying to manipulate her, and at this point no one has actually indicated to ehr they might have any information she doesn't already have. The Paladins and the Order both wanting to talk it out is expected. She's never claimed they don't honestly want stop what they see as a potentiol threat to the gates. Trying to talk it out and recruit her is expected behaviour for them.

There's also the question of what she knows. There's clearly gaps in her knowledge, for all we know she's assessing the orders chances on the assumption that the MitD will help Xykon, depending on how powerful he really is it's quite probable that her assesment is acurratte. We know he probably won't fight the order. But she doesn't necessarily know that, even his extra X's painted on doors could be just him being a ditz from her PoV.


To a large extent I think you are right that we should evaluate her on what she knows. There are a couple of exceptions though. She can be fairly criticised for things she doesn't know but which ought to be obvious to her (for example that Xykon getting the gate is likely to result in its destruction) or things she doesn't know but which she could have found and she should have tried (an obvious example is whether she should have spoken to the Order and found out a whole lot more).

But even on the basis of what she knew (not taking into account what she might have found out if she spoke to the Order), I think there's good reason to believe that her decision making is poor here.

[Kirt]

Yeah, so why does the title say below? It's neither a reference to the actual creature name, nor the situation in-comic.
Sure, it's lurker. It's clearly represented as attacking from above. Hence my confusion as to the title of the strip.

The creature is a lurker above. For the title quip, Rich has inverted expectations by calling it 'lurking below'.
The situation in-comic is that the lurker is hiding on the ceiling of a chamber that is beneath the chamber in which they just fought. Thus it was lurking below where they were before they encountered it.

In #1246, panels 3 and 4, notice that Sunny is shooting the disintegrate beam at an angle to the floor. Thus the passage being created is not a horizontally level tunnel to the chamber alongside this one; rather it is a slide / chute going down and over. In panels 5 and 7-11 you can see the sloping shade lines on the side of the chute to indicate that it is going down, even though we can't see the slope itself from our perspective.

When Haley, V, and Belkar jump into the tunnel, they are not jumping through a level passage, rather they are jumping into a chute and then they fall / slide the rest of the way down it. That is why they have such a hard landing in #1247 (pain faces, impact arrows on Haley's rear, and 'whoooze' sound effect of Belkar sliding).

Since they are now at least one level below where they were at in the previous strip, it is a Lurker below.

[Hurkyl]

My interpretation is that they were lurking below a lurker above. But the interpretation that these monsters were lurking in the lower depths of the dungeon makes sense too.

[elros]

I am trying to decide if the Giant included Belkar and V in this chase because they will have meaningful interaction with Serini, or because their insults supply the jokes for the comic. I have the same question about why Elan and Sunny are together- is it for plot or punchline?
That could also explain why Roy & Durkon, who are two stick-in-the-mud characters, are out of commission. Sometimes humor is more important that drama.

[Carl]

To a large extent I think you are right that we should evaluate her on what she knows. There are a couple of exceptions though. She can be fairly criticised for things she doesn't know but which ought to be obvious to her (for example that Xykon getting the gate is likely to result in its destruction) or things she doesn't know but which she could have found and she should have tried (an obvious example is whether she should have spoken to the Order and found out a whole lot more).

But even on the basis of what she knew (not taking into account what she might have found out if she spoke to the Order), I think there's good reason to believe that her decision making is poor here.


1. How is it obvious Xykon getting the gate will result in it's destruction? Xykon has been very clear he doesn't want the gate destroyed, she knows what happened at Soons gate so she knows he took steps to try to prevent it's destruction.

2. And why should she try talking to the order? She has no reason to do so and no reason to believe they'd tell the truth for that matter. All she knows, (that we've confirmed), is that they trying to stop Xykon to protect the world from him using the gates for whatever nefarious ends he has, (which as noted do not involve blowing them up). There isn't an argument they can make in that regard thats relevant. If she had reason to believe they knew more about the gods plans or the nature of the rifts than she does you'd have a point. Nothing she's said indicates anything of the sort. Quite the opposite. her conversation with Lien and O-Chul is entirely focused on their stopping Xykon using the gates for his own ends.

3. If your going to say her decision making on the basis of what she knows is poor your going to have to justify it please. What decision should she have made and why is that better than the one she did make?


I am trying to decide if the Giant included Belkar and V in this chase because they will have meaningful interaction with Serini, or because their insults supply the jokes for the comic. I have the same question about why Elan and Sunny are together- is it for plot or punchline?
That could also explain why Roy & Durkon, who are two stick-in-the-mud characters, are out of commission. Sometimes humor is more important that drama.

Yes:elan:.

[Liquor Box]

1. How is it obvious Xykon getting the gate will result in it's destruction? Xykon has been very clear he doesn't want the gate destroyed, she knows what happened at Soons gate so she knows he took steps to try to prevent it's destruction.

Well, she thinks (correctly) that he intends to use the gate to rule the world (she says so in strip 1229). Given what she knows about the Snarl it would seem to stand to reason that the only way to use it is either to try and dominate it or to use the threat of it to blackmail, and given that she knows about how powerful it is she should know that either of those things will at the least have a high risk of releasing it on the world. It appears that the Order of the Scribble thought about this - strip 276 says that the Scribble feared what would happen if the gate fell into the wrong hands and strip.

Separately, she knows that Xykon's party destroyed a gate before despite not intending to do so. Serini appears to have decided that the paladins are a risk to the gate because they've been involved in a gates destruction, despite not intending to destroy it Not sure why she'd see the paladins as a risk any not Xykon, when both have destroyed a gate.


2. And why should she try talking to the order? She has no reason to do so and no reason to believe they'd tell the truth for that matter. All she knows, (that we've confirmed), is that they trying to stop Xykon to protect the world from him using the gates for whatever nefarious ends he has, (which as noted do not involve blowing them up). There isn't an argument they can make in that regard thats relevant. If she had reason to believe they knew more about the gods plans or the nature of the rifts than she does you'd have a point. Nothing she's said indicates anything of the sort. Quite the opposite. her conversation with Lien and O-Chul is entirely focused on their stopping Xykon using the gates for his own ends.

This is something that has been extensively discussed by others. Personally I am undecided whether she should have talked to the Order.

There is good reason for her to think the might know relevant information though for lots of reasons. For example, she clearly tailors her tactics to the enemy she is facing, and she appears to know that the Order has faced Xykon before - so they would be likely to have insights into Xykon's tactics/weaknesses she would find useful. I mean just the fact that they have been looking into the gates and have clearly found out some things about them would suggest they have a source she doesn't know about, which might possibly have given them some knowledge she doesn't know. I agree with you that she doesn't know that they do have information, but she should be able deduce that they might. So if she has nothing to lose she may as well talk to them because she might have a lot to gain.

The counterargument is that she might have something to lose. She seems to see herself as somewhat of a secret agent operating from the shadows. She might see it that it endanger her or make her plans harder to achieve if they knew she existed - not sure how strong that argument is because they clearly thought she might exist, hence the sendings. Maybe she though she'd accidently give something away.

The others who were involved may be able to expand on the arguments. Otherwise, take your pick.


3. If your going to say her decision making on the basis of what she knows is poor your going to have to justify it please. What decision should she have made and why is that better than the one she did make?

The starting point is that her goal is to prevent the gate's destruction at all costs. From 1229, her plan seems to be to let Xykon take the gate and rely on future adventurers will come and displace him in the future. She says that she see's the real risk to the gate is conflict and if the paladins (and Order) are taken out of the picture there will be no conflict. That logic ignores the risk Xykon poses to the gate without conflict (see the answer to your first point) and also ignores the fact that any future group who comes to displace Xykon will also lead to conflict putting the gate at risk. As such, her strategy of stopping people from trying to oppose Xykon is flawed.

In terms of what she could do instead, the best option to protect the gate would be to align herself with the other groups trying to stop Xykon, so collectively they have the best chance of stopping him and so she could influence them to oppose him in a way that poses less risk to the gate. But I understand some people object to that strategy because they think she'd need to trust the Order. In that case, simply doing nothing would be a better option than interfering with those who are willing to take a shot.

I note that some others don't agree with me and have disputed a few aspects of the above. If there's any part you disagree with, happy to discuss.

[Oromin]

Once in a past life I was a materials science grad student studying ceramic-metal interfaces.

Ceramics are highly acid resistant as a rule. Rocks vary greatly (my Geology is based on a single survey course taken as a Freshman undergrad) but generally are more reactive (in nature, ceramics are more like inclusions in rocks, rocks aren't usually ceramics, any more than iron ore is the same thing as a bar of iron).

Furthermore a rock found in a cave won't just be a rock. It'll be a dirty rock. Dirt is mostly composed of organics that will in fact react with most acids. The residue would be minerals mostly, although some of them might also react (metallic stuff espcially).

Now D&D geek back on. Green Slimes will eat dead organic matter too and convert it to slime (think wood, leather). It could sizzle on a rock because it is reacting to the dirt on the rock.

I'm sticking to my Green Slime theory :)

I was just a poor materials science undergrad. And my knowledge of rocks comes from a grandfather obsessed with them. Still I'm going to have to dispute some of this?

Rocks are principally composite mixtures of mineral species. And all minerals are ceramic materials by the definition I learned. (Unless you wanted to call native metal a mineral I guess). I feel like calling a ceramic/ceramic composite a ceramic is fair? At least when discussing chemical properties? Certainly I wouldn't just call the bulk of the mass inclusions.

I do agree that reactivity varies significantly by mineral species. But I guess it depends on what we consider resistant? If you use enough acid over a long enough period it almost doesn't matter what one you use. But the reaction we saw was pretty rapid. I don't think you'd get that with most silicate minerals with just any acid. You'd need a specific chemical pairing.

I concede the dirty rock point though. That's a good one and does make me think your theory is plausible.

[Oromin]

Isn't it just watered-up hydrocloric acid with some copper salt tossed in?

Copper sulfate yeah. You win the thread in my book.

[Oromin]

I've used a number of kinds of etchant, but I had to look that one up. Even if I'd encountered it before, I'm terrible at associating reactions with names. I did really well in most aspects of organic chem, but that was always my big blocker.

Well I mostly use it to etch stainless steel. No clue if it has any applications in organic chem. It's just the most aggressive substance I've ever used that's close to the appropriate color.

[danielxcutter]

It kinds feels like so far, her main role is to frustrate the Order and the readers - which is not to say that is all she'll be good for until the end of the comic, I'm saying that's what her narrative purpose seems to be now. Haley asked if someone could shoot her. V just asked if someone could kill her. That doesn't mean that I think she needs to die now or anything, and let's be real people say more extreme things than they actually plan to do when they're fed up like that so that doesn't mean Serini's going to die as soon as she stops running and starts talking, either.

And I think I've mentioned this in like two or ten threads by now, but... why does she have to be completely right in the boundaries of what we can guess she knows - or even beyond that? People aren't perfect, that pattern's shown up like more than a few times with the other Scribblers alone. The party disbanding, Dorukan dying, Lirian dying, Girard's Gate failing, all of that. And considering that she got approximately 25% of her body Blackfired off by Xykon I wouldn't blame her at all for being scared of him, or being pessimistic about the chances of defeating him.

But "Xykon doesn't want to destroy the world, so if I stop you now he'll get booted off in a few years and everything will be fine" is a horrible premise in terms of logic. I mean, she presumably knew that it killed an entire world and butchered a pantheon in less than half an hour. She might have seen the Snarl tear Kraagor apart with her own eyes. I don't see why she assumes that letting anyone even remotely like Xykon get hold of anything remotely like control of anything remotely like the Snarl is acceptable.

I still suspect the IFCC of tampering with her sources of information so she assumes the Order and the paladins are planning to destroy this final Gate. Manipulating people by exploiting their flaws is very much their MO. Serini is a noncaster who's been spending a lot of time with minimal contact with the outside, and they're archfiends with all the power and resources that implies. I can think of a couple of ways they could mess with her information without her noticing. And they don't have to do a lot, much less actively make a deal with her... just enough to tip things in their favor.

I just strongly disagree with the premise that her only shortcoming is not knowing about the Godsmoot, okay?

[Metastachydium]

I mean... yeah? Just like it's on you for wanting Serini to get punched in the face for having a reasonable point of view that opposes the Order? I don't have any problems with my own position.

Don't strawman me, Ruck. It's unbecoming. Serini has every reason not to trust the Order and I said that much quite a number of times. She deserves being punched in the face for being a bloody hypocrite and being smug about that.