Kobold Dragon Rider: Drakewarden or Valor Bard?

[Yakmala]

I've played many different classes over the years but never one that focused on mounted combat. With the Darkewarden now officially published, I wanted to make a Kobold dragon rider, and Drakewarden seemed the natural way to do it at first, but on further investigation, I started to have doubts that it would be the best approach.

With Drakewarden, you are waiting until 15th level to be able to use your drake as a flying mount. And if you want to control it independently, you are using up your bonus action, making Hunter's Mark difficult to apply and move around.

But Fizban's also introduced the Dragonnel, which can be summoned with Find Greater Steed. So it occurred to me a better approach might be going with a Kobold Valor Bard and picking up Find Greater Steed at level 10 with Magical Secrets along with either Swift Quiver or Haste. You get the flavor of riding a dragon, get a flying mount five levels earlier and get the Bard's benefit of being a full rather than a half caster.

On the down side, Find Greater Steed takes a 4th level spell slot while the Drakewarden can re-summon their companion with only a 1st level slot. Also, assuming ranged, you'd need to either pick up a level of fighter or the Fighting Initiate feat if you want the benefit of Archery fighting style.

Which do you think would be the better approach? Or is there an even better 3rd option? What mounted combat build do you enjoy the most or find to be the most effective?

[gloryblaze]

The "obvious" third option between Drakewarden and Bard is Paladin, which gets find greater steed 2 levels earlier than the Drakewarden can fly on their mount but 3 levels after Bard. Upside being it's probably the strongest chassis for a melee fighter, though ranged is probably better anyways to exploit the unique advantages of a flying mount.

I'd probably still go with drakewarden, personally, since many campaigns are wrapping up by the time you hit 10th level. Drakewarden is the only way to guarantee that you'll have a dragon companion for the majority of your character's playtime—and even if you can't fly on it at 7th level, you can at least use it as a land mount (and if you really need to fly, you can have it grapple you and carry you at half speed).

[RogueJK]

A ranged build wouldn't work as well with the Kobold's "always-on Pack Tactics" benefit from a mount, unless you also take the Crossbow Expert feat and always stick next to enemies, which would then negate most of the benefits of being a ranged character. The other option to capitalize on this would be to just remain unmounted in combat, and have your Drake fight in melee while you shoot arrows from afar.

It would also restrict situations in which your Mount could make their BA melee attacks, if you're focusing on making ranged attacks from afar. (Less of an issue if going the Find Greater Steed route, since they can't attack anyway.)

Besides the additional attack, the Drake would also have a significantly higher AC than the Greater Steed dragon, along with its additional Infused Strikes reaction ability.

Melee would be more workable for a Drakewarden. It would also allow you to take the Blind Fighting fighting style, to potentially negate the Kobold's sunlight sensitivity by simply closing your eyes. (If your DM rules that it's based on the bright sunlight affecting your eye sight, and not some magical detriment merely from having sunlight on your skin.)

If you go Bardcher, consider a Fighter 1/Swords Bard X. The Fighter level gets you CON save proficiency for better Concentration, armor and longbow proficiency, and Archery fighting style. Swords' Blade Flourishes (which still work with ranged attacks) are more useful than Valor's Combat Inspiration. However, as with most Bardcher characters, you're likely going to hit a point in your career where you find that casting spells is most often a better use of your Action than making weapon attacks (likely before you even get your flying mount).



So if your priority is to be an archer/spellcaster with an eventual flying mount a few levels sooner starting in Tier 3, go Bard with Find Greater Steed. Just understand that this means not having a companion/mount for the first 10+ levels. Do you really want to wait 10+ levels for your vision of this "dragon rider" character to come online?

Whereas if your priority is more about having a dragon companion (and eventual mount) throughout most of your adventuring career starting at Level 3, and you're okay with waiting until Level 15 for the flying mount part specifically, go Drakewarden. The latter will feel much more like a "dragon-focused" character, with it being an integral part of his character practically from the beginning, whereas the former is just an archer/spellcaster who eventually gets to ride a dragon (unless you're starting the campaign at Bard 10+).




Something like:

Kobold Drakewarden X melee dragon rider
STR 10
DEX 15+2
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 15
CHA 8
+1 DEX/WIS at Ranger 4, then Mounted Combatant at Ranger 8, and +2 DEX at Ranger 12. Use a shield and a rapier (or a scimitar refluffed as a saber, if you want the cavalry vibe). Take the Blind Fighting fighting style (depending on DM ruling as discussed above), otherwise the Dueling or Defense fighting style. You can still have a Longbow for ranged backup; it just won't be your focus.

or

Kobold Fighter 1/Swords Bard X archer with an eventual flying mount
STR 10
DEX 15+2
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 8
CHA 15
+1 DEX/CHA at Bard 4, then Sharpshooter at Bard 8, and Mounted Combatant at Bard 12. Take the Archery fighting style. Use a longbow.

[quindraco]

I've played many different classes over the years but never one that focused on mounted combat. With the Darkewarden now officially published, I wanted to make a Kobold dragon rider, and Drakewarden seemed the natural way to do it at first, but on further investigation, I started to have doubts that it would be the best approach.

With Drakewarden, you are waiting until 15th level to be able to use your drake as a flying mount. And if you want to control it independently, you are using up your bonus action, making Hunter's Mark difficult to apply and move around.

But Fizban's also introduced the Dragonnel, which can be summoned with Find Greater Steed. So it occurred to me a better approach might be going with a Kobold Valor Bard and picking up Find Greater Steed at level 10 with Magical Secrets along with either Swift Quiver or Haste. You get the flavor of riding a dragon, get a flying mount five levels earlier and get the Bard's benefit of being a full rather than a half caster.

On the down side, Find Greater Steed takes a 4th level spell slot while the Drakewarden can re-summon their companion with only a 1st level slot. Also, assuming ranged, you'd need to either pick up a level of fighter or the Fighting Initiate feat if you want the benefit of Archery fighting style.

Which do you think would be the better approach? Or is there an even better 3rd option? What mounted combat build do you enjoy the most or find to be the most effective?

Drakewardens are just about the worst mounted build possible - not only will you be the only Small creature in the world your Drake can't carry while flying from levels 7 to 14, but on top of that, your mount is manually forced by an explicit special rule to go after you do, ruining your day every time you try to get clever with mounted combat. Best avoided. You can solve this problem better other ways because it's so important your mount move during your turn, not after it - e.g. you could be a PHB Ranger Beast Master with a reflavored Pteranodon or Vulture and that would still be better. If you like the idea of being a Bard/Paladin summoning your mount, do it. You'll have more fun.

[strangebloke]

I've played many different classes over the years but never one that focused on mounted combat. With the Darkewarden now officially published, I wanted to make a Kobold dragon rider, and Drakewarden seemed the natural way to do it at first, but on further investigation, I started to have doubts that it would be the best approach.

With Drakewarden, you are waiting until 15th level to be able to use your drake as a flying mount. And if you want to control it independently, you are using up your bonus action, making Hunter's Mark difficult to apply and move around.

But Fizban's also introduced the Dragonnel, which can be summoned with Find Greater Steed. So it occurred to me a better approach might be going with a Kobold Valor Bard and picking up Find Greater Steed at level 10 with Magical Secrets along with either Swift Quiver or Haste. You get the flavor of riding a dragon, get a flying mount five levels earlier and get the Bard's benefit of being a full rather than a half caster.

On the down side, Find Greater Steed takes a 4th level spell slot while the Drakewarden can re-summon their companion with only a 1st level slot. Also, assuming ranged, you'd need to either pick up a level of fighter or the Fighting Initiate feat if you want the benefit of Archery fighting style.

Which do you think would be the better approach? Or is there an even better 3rd option? What mounted combat build do you enjoy the most or find to be the most effective?

The Drake is there to tank and boost your damage not be a taxi for you. It's a kind of ****ty mount. Forget about Hunter's Mark, don't even take it. The Dragon's BA attack is better anyway. It works pretty well with your pack tactics and the reaction boost is nice. Send fluffy in and shoot whoever they're next to.

If your goal is to ride and fly than yeah. No. WOTC is really weird about flying abilities for some unfathomable reason. You can try to negotiate with your DM here since its not remotely overpowered to fly on this thing's back at seventh level.


Drakewardens are just about the worst mounted build possible - not only will you be the only Small creature in the world your Drake can't carry while flying from levels 7 to 14, but on top of that, your mount is manually forced by an explicit special rule to go after you do, ruining your day every time you try to get clever with mounted combat. Best avoided. You can solve this problem better other ways because it's so important your mount move during your turn, not after it - e.g. you could be a PHB Ranger Beast Master with a reflavored Pteranodon or Vulture and that would still be better. If you like the idea of being a Bard/Paladin summoning your mount, do it. You'll have more fun.

Great mount for your allied halfling though! It can carry them while flying.

More seriously I've never met a DM who runs the mounted rules completely by the book, or even cared that much. This nuance you're seizing on here is a really fine one.

[Akal Saris]

I feel like the rules issues with the drakewarden mount (initiative order) are a good thing to check with a DM beforehand. If the DM is a total stickler for the rules-exactly-as-written, then I would build a different mounted character. But most DMs should hopefully let you control its actions simultaneously, in the most intuitive way.

The flying issue is another thing, especially since a kobold beastmaster could be riding a flying bat from level 3 onwards if I recall. But I guess there it depends how desperately you want that flying image. Since the vast majority of my games end before level 15, I would never build around a 15th level ability unless I knew the game was starting at level 14 or so.

[Temperjoke]

One thing to consider is the Cavalier Fighter which has some features towards mounted combat and mounts. And I agree with not going with Drakewarden, the drake is a fighting partner, not a mount, so I think it would only frustrate you in the long run. Somehow getting Find Greater Steed is probably a better route, although the dragonnel is also mentioned to be DM dependent so there's no guarantee that you can use it.

[Joe the Rat]

Beastmaster or Cavalier with DM buy-in is simplest, but least guaranteed to work for "dragon-rider". Beastmaster can be mounted on a Pteranodon at 3, but you need that reskinning or else you're on a dinosaur related creature, not a Dragon. Cavalier is by far the hardest, because that entirely requires DM buy-in to find, tame, and train - or establish a working relationship with, if you find one of Intelligent" variety. But it also brings more Feats to the table - particularly since Mounted Combatant has value for your build.

Those two also have the best foundation for mounted archer. If you intend to melee, Paladin does have its selling points, particularly if you can negotiate a suitably draconic find steed fill-in until you get FGS.

If it's about getting in the air on a dragon as quickly as possible, Lore Bard. Find Greater Steed at 7th (swap one of your Secrets at 7), plus, oh, Dragon's Breath. You will be limited on the combat side though - layering in Rogue to capitalize on hits might be worthwhile.

[RogueJK]

If it's about getting in the air on a dragon as quickly as possible, Lore Bard. Find Greater Steed at 7th (swap one of your Secrets at 7)

Once chosen, Magical Secrets spells can't be swapped out for just any spell. When you choose two Magical Secrets, those two spells become Bard spells known for you. But the section on Bards swapping spells known states: "Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the bard spells you know and replace it with another spell from the bard spell list".

So you can retrain a Magical Secrets spell, but you can't just choose from any spell out there, like you can when first selecting a Magical Secret. It must be swapped for another Bard spell. And until you take it as a Magical Secret, Find Greater Steed is not a Bard spell for you. There's no specific rule allowing an exception for Magical Secrets spells to be swapped for non-Bard spells, so they follow the general Bard spell swapping rules.

Also, you can't preemptively take Find Greater Steed as a Level 6 Magical Secret and just wait until Level 7 to cast it, because Magical Secret spells "must be of a level you can cast" at the time of selection.

Therefore, you'll need to wait until Level 10 when you get additional Magical Secrets spell choices to take Find Greater Steed.

(But since Magical Secrets spells become Bard spells for you, this does mean that you can drop one of your existing Magical Secrets spells when you gain a level by swapping it for something else, and then swap that Magical Secret spell back in to your spells known at a later level. It's all trading Bard spells for Bard spells.)