The Book of Boba Fett - First Trailer

[Palanan]

First trailer just out:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOJ1cw6mohw



Looks very Star Warsy. Should be solid fun if nothing else.

[Fyraltari]

That's not Jabba's throne! That's Bib Fortuna's. Jabba couldn't fit on that. He didn't even have a throne, he had a stone couch, which is a very weird material to make a couch out of, when you think about it.

Plot points hinted at in the trailer:
- Boba fighting for power with Jabba's former lieutenants.
- Boba fighting Tuskens.
- Boba abandonning bounty hunting to become a... respectful crime-lord.

Other likely plot points:
- Boba fighting Hutts who object to a non-Hutt taking over Jabba's operation (how old is Jabba's son again?)
- Boba fighting Cobb Vanth who probably won't stand for another crimelord on Tattooine.
- Boba fighting the New Republic for basically the same reasons.
- I dunno something with the Imperial Remnant/First Order whatever.
- Boba writing a book.
- Han Solo or Lando Calrissian showing up in the last episode thanks to CGI devilry.

[Peelee]

Other likely plot points:
- Boba writing a book.

I need this in my life.

Other than that, "sit on Jabba's throne" is more metaphorical. He reigns as Jabba did, is what they're saying. The specific seat is immaterial, except for imagery.

But dang, am I stoked for this. And a little upset that I went for the Mando costume and not the rebuilt Fett costume. That's gonna be popular next year.

[Fyraltari]

I need this in my life.
What to do when you fall inside the Great Saarlac, by Boba Fett.


Other than that, "sit on Jabba's throne" is more metaphorical. He reigns as Jabba did, is what they're saying. The specific seat is immaterial, except for imagery.
Obviously, but I've got the sneaking suspicion that Bib Fortuna's rule won't be mentionned much, despite it having lasted, I want to say, five years?


But dang, am I stoked for this. And a little upset that I went for the Mando costume and not the rebuilt Fett costume. That's gonna be popular next year.
But for some reason, he didn't fix that dent in the helmet.

[Peelee]

Obviously, but I've got the sneaking suspicion that Bib Fortuna's rule won't be mentionned much, despite it having lasted, I want to say, five years?
Fair. I'll be optimistic and choose to believe that Fortuna didn't rule so much as he cowered in a fortress, given how Fett is trying to consolidate power.

But for some reason, he didn't fix that dent in the helmet.
The cosplayers would revolt. For reals, though, the dedicated Fett site is called "the dented helmet (https://thedentedhelmet.com/)". It's pretty iconic for him. For whatever reason, that dent ain't never getting fixed. That being said, most of the dents didn't get fixed, and there are new ones. New paint job is all he got, looks like.

[Sapphire Guard]

What does Boba want with Jabba's throne?

It looks okay, but I'm cynical after Mando. We'll see.

[Peelee]

What does Boba want with Jabba's throne?

He's becoming lord of a criminal organization instead of just being a cog in the machine? I thought that was pretty obvious from the trailer. That seems to be the entire plot.

[Fyraltari]

He's becoming lord of a criminal organization instead of just being a cog in the machine? I thought that was pretty obvious from the trailer. That seems to be the entire plot.

It's also likely that his extremely close brush with death (falling into the Saarlac) made him think about his life a little. Getting his armour back may also have helped him regain a sense of pride and determination.

[russdm]

I think that it is a pretty cool thing to look forward to.

That said:

I think that the main focus is over the fact that Tatioone was ruled by the hutts and has had mixed results with government. The Republic did nothing and the Empire was apparently fine with hutt rule. I can see Boba trying to establish authority by trying to appeal to others by not using jabba's methods.

I can buy that idea because it really fits the part western and part Asian style star wars drew from. The samurai/ronin stuff. Plus Boba did work for jabba some so he could see what wsd working and what appeared not to.

Then there is the fact that the new republic seems to have abandoned its responsibility to maintain the peace and law, thanks to the nu-canon. So I see this all being because the new republic is pretty incompetent at doing what needs to be done

Maybe this will be another show that will subtly encourage the idea that the Empire was better for the Galaxy than the relatively ineffective new republic

[Fyraltari]

The Republic did nothing and the Empire was apparently fine with hutt rule. I can see Boba trying to establish authority by trying to appeal to others by not using jabba's methods.
Tattoine wasn't in the Old Republic, though. It was part of the Empire, so they probably conquered it (Jabba likely made a deal with the Empire to keep most of his stuff).


Then there is the fact that the new republic seems to have abandoned its responsibility to maintain the peace and law, thanks to the nu-canon. So I see this all being because the new republic is pretty incompetent at doing what needs to be done

Maybe this will be another show that will subtly encourage the idea that the Empire was better for the Galaxy than the relatively ineffective new republic

The Mandalorian was pretty explicit that whatever the New Republic's flaws are, the Empire was way, way, way worse, so I doubt that.

[Peelee]

Maybe this will be another show that will subtly encourage the idea that the Empire was better for the Galaxy than the relatively ineffective new republic

What was the first one?

[Mechalich]

What was the first one?

The implication is that the Mandalorian also made this point, and it's a general issue of the Disney canon overall that the Rebellion won the war but lost the peace, something that's absolutely necessary to make the ST plotline function at all. That's a direct contrast to the Legends plotline which was all about the prolonged struggle to win the peace and required an outside-context-problem in order to restart that cycle of war while the big three were still alive.

Regardless, it's important to differentiate between life in the Core/Colonies and life in the Mid and Outer Rim, which are functionally two different worlds. Life under the Empire may in fact have been better for certain portions of the frontier, based on the idea that any law, no matter how capricious and harsh, is better than no law at all and the Palpatine's massive military build up poured resources into the Outer Rim regions, which benefitted the area economically. However, life in the Core was clearly worse and, critically, most people in the galaxy live in the Core, we just rarely see those people.

Star Wars has a lost of Western structural elements, including that it mostly unfolds in the wild west equivalent of its own universe, even though the overwhelming majority of the people live back east in the big cities and dense farmlands.


Tattoine wasn't in the Old Republic, though. It was part of the Empire, so they probably conquered it (Jabba likely made a deal with the Empire to keep most of his stuff).

Tatooine was part of the Old Republic, initially, post-Ruusan. Rather it was one of the many territories that slipped out of Republic control as the Old Republic slowly collapsed inward and weakened in the prolonged buildup to the Clone Wars. It was by no means unique in this way, the Republic lost a huge amount of territory on the Rim due to neglect/corruption/weakness. The Hutts - the big green blob on this map (https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/8/8c/Clone_wars_factions.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120323132926), where simply the largest beneficiaries. That map also has a lot of Outer Rim space that lacks a color, which wasn't controlled by the Republic either.

[Peelee]

The implication is that the Mandalorian also made this point, and it's a general issue of the Disney canon overall that the Rebellion won the war but lost the peace, something that's absolutely necessary to make the ST plotline function at all.

A.) literally the only person who advocates this is a former imperial who is explicitly a villain.
2.) even then, the ST plotline doesn't function, so I have no issue there.

[DigoDragon]

Maybe this will be another show that will subtly encourage the idea that the Empire was better for the Galaxy than the relatively ineffective new republic

I argue that neither were better; applying a singular governing system to the entire galaxy is just not feasible because of the size and scope involved. ... though looking back at The Mandalorian, I guess bounty hunters would say the Empire is better considering their choice of occupation was supported by the empire. :3

Anyway, the trailer looks pretty good and so I look forward to watching this series. Hutt politics sounds like fun with a blaster.

[Fyraltari]

I argue that neither were better

In my opinion, any system that carries out genocides is automatically disqualified.

[AMX]

- Boba writing a book.


I need this in my life.


What to do when you fall inside the Great Saarlac, by Boba Fett.

TBQH, I've had a rather different idea stuck in my head...
The Book of Boba Fett
Tall Tales for Children and Parents
Compiled and illustrated by Fennec Fett-Shand

(Title image is Boba Fett riding a dinosaur, from the Holiday Special)

[Peelee]

TBQH, I've had a rather different idea stuck in my head...
The Book of Boba Fett
Tall Tales for Children and Parents
Compiled and illustrated by Fennec Fett-Shand

(Title image is Boba Fett riding a dinosaur, from the Holiday Special)

I choose to believe it's a coloring book.

[Fyraltari]

TBQH, I've had a rather different idea stuck in my head...
The Book of Boba Fett
Tall Tales for Children and Parents
Compiled and illustrated by Fennec Fett-Shand

(Title image is Boba Fett riding a dinosaur, from the Holiday Special)

Are Fennec and Boba married in that scenario of yours?

[AMX]

Are Fennec and Boba married in that scenario of yours?

Married with children.

Boba tells the kids grossly exagerrated stories about his adventures as a bounty hunter, Fennec writes them down, adds her own artwork, and compiles them into a book.

...also, the double name means she can sign all her email with "FFS"

[Fyraltari]

Married with children.

Boba tells the kids grossly exagerrated stories about his adventures as a bounty hunter, Fennec writes them down, adds her own artwork, and compiles them into a book.
I'm not seeing it (yet).
But.

...also, the double name means she can sign all her email with "FFS"

This, this is I like.

[Psyren]

I'm kinda sad they don't seem to have much idea of what to do with the Force-users. Don't get me wrong, the bounty hunter/smuggler/mandalorian/etc side of the universe has plenty of stories too, but I want to get back to the magic stuff too.

Hell, at this point I'll settle for a not-really-Force-user like Chirrut.

[Peelee]

I'm kinda sad they don't seem to have much idea of what to do with the Force-users. Don't get me wrong, the bounty hunter/smuggler/mandalorian/etc side of the universe has plenty of stories too, but I want to get back to the magic stuff too.

Hell, at this point I'll settle for a not-really-Force-user like Chirrut.

That's one thing I like about it - Force users are supposed to be uncommon to downright rare, and the SW universe has a whole galaxy to play around with, and in glad they seem to be waking up to that idea

[Fyraltari]

I'm kinda sad they don't seem to have much idea of what to do with the Force-users. Don't get me wrong, the bounty hunter/smuggler/mandalorian/etc side of the universe has plenty of stories too, but I want to get back to the magic stuff too.

Hell, at this point I'll settle for a not-really-Force-user like Chirrut.

Well, the Prequel Era is kind of the most well-trod ground of the (disney) EU right now, anything set in the Sequel Era is goung to be a hard sell for a while, so that leaves us with the Empire Era and the New Republic Era, one of which has very little Jedi left and two Sith we know everything about and the other has no Sith and any introduced Jedi have the issue of very likely dying in the destruction of Luke's school.

Introducing a new Force group as focus characters would raise a lot of questions too and has no guarantee of being welcomed by the fans (I'd bet against, personally) so, yeah, I'm not really sure what they should do.


Maybe the planned new trilogy helmed by Johnson, if it is indeed still happening, could shake that up, I dunno.

[Psyren]

Well, the Prequel Era is kind of the most well-trod ground of the (disney) EU right now, anything set in the Sequel Era is goung to be a hard sell for a while, so that leaves us with the Empire Era and the New Republic Era, one of which has very little Jedi left and two Sith we know everything about and the other has no Sith and any introduced Jedi have the issue of very likely dying in the destruction of Luke's school.

Introducing a new Force group as focus characters would raise a lot of questions too and has no guarantee of being welcomed by the fans (I'd bet against, personally) so, yeah, I'm not really sure what they should do.


That's one thing I like about it - Force users are supposed to be uncommon to downright rare, and the SW universe has a whole galaxy to play around with, and in glad they seem to be waking up to that idea

Yeah I get that but like... the Force is what makes AGFFA interesting as a setting for me. I can get space bounty hunters shooting lasers at each other and running mob empires anywhere. I can only get Jedi here :smallfrown:

And The Mandalorian knew it too. Yeah his badass normal exploits were great to watch, but I don't think the show would have hit nearly as hard as it did without the enigma of the kid psionically saving his behind multiple times, not to mention Ahsoka and Luke(!!!) showing up towards the back half. I'm seeing none of that in this trailer, which just makes me worried that they're tossing it all out for this series. (Incidentally, the reception to those three characters makes me think, no, Force-sensitives showing up wouldn't cause too much of a negative backlash.)


Maybe the planned new trilogy helmed by Johnson, if it is indeed still happening, could shake that up, I dunno.

I think it's going to be at least 2 more years, maybe 3, before we hear a peep about that :smallyuk:

[Peelee]

Yeah I get that but like... the Force is what makes AGFFA interesting as a setting for me. I can get space bounty hunters shooting lasers at each other and running mob empires anywhere. I can only get Jedi here :smallfrown:

If you find them interesting, that's no problem. That's totally understandable. If, without the Jedi, you can't really tell any difference between Star Wars and Star Trek and Firefly and Futurama and.....

Diluting everything about Star Wars (or hell, even just this upcoming series) to "shooting lasers at each other and running mob empires" is a gross oversimplification that nullifies all the world building that virtually every popular scifi universe builds. It's totally fine to say "I like the Force users best". It's massively mischaracterizing to say "everything else I can get anywhere else".

It's Star Wars. There's going to be plenty of content that focus on Force users. I hope you enjoy them. But I want some stuff that explores the larger world. There's a whole galaxy to play around in, and restricting everything to only Force users makes the galaxy seem much smaller, more restrictive, and more boring.

[Psyren]

Oh I can tell the difference, it just isn't all that special to me. Plus not being all that interested in Boba (who I guess is a true Mandalorian now?) Ah well, I'm not here to yuck anyone's yum.



It's Star Wars. There's going to be plenty of content that focus on Force users. I hope you enjoy them. But I want some stuff that explores the larger world. There's a whole galaxy to play around in, and restricting everything to only Force users makes the galaxy seem much smaller, more restrictive, and more boring.

I would posit part of the reason for that boredom, stems from the fact that every major Force User we've gotten in A-Canon has been tied in some way to one specific family/dynasty, and the central events surrounding said family. At the very least, I'm beyond bored of that too.

[Peelee]

Oh I can tell the difference, it just isn't all that special to me. Plus not being all that interested in Boba (who I guess is a true Mandalorian now?) Ah well, I'm not here to yuck anyone's yum.
Totally fair. Sorry, I might have gotten that confmated with people who claim that Force users are the only thing that make Star Wars different from any other series. My bad.

Also, Fett is canonically not Mandalorian.

I would posit part of the reason for that boredom, stems from the fact that every major Force User we've gotten in A-Canon has been tied in some way to one specific family/dynasty, and the central events surrounding said family. At the very least, I'm beyond bored of that too.
The absolute last thing I want is another "different levels of canon" in Star Wars. But yeah, I agree. That being said, I was still really hoping that Visions would have at least one story without going full bore into Jedi and lightsabers. As is, it was a whole series based on a one-trick pony, despite branching out to non-Skywalkers. So it shouldn't be surprising why I liked Mandalorian (which, despite the Child, had significantly less Force usage and had the vast majority of all events influenced by non Force users not using the Force) and am so excited about BoBF. Along with Andor, Rangers of the New Republic, and pretty much everything else they plan to put out soon.

[Psyren]

Totally fair. Sorry, I might have gotten that confmated with people who claim that Force users are the only thing that make Star Wars different from any other series. My bad.

Also, Fett is canonically not Mandalorian.

Aren't the Fetts foundlings, kind of? You might be right, this is far from my strong suit.



The absolute last thing I want is another "different levels of canon" in Star Wars. But yeah, I agree. That being said, I was still really hoping that Visions would have at least one story without going full bore into Jedi and lightsabers. As is, it was a whole series based on a one-trick pony, despite branching out to non-Skywalkers. So it shouldn't be surprising why I liked Mandalorian (which, despite the Child, had significantly less Force usage and had the vast majority of all events influenced by non Force users not using the Force) and am so excited about BoBF. Along with Andor, Rangers of the New Republic, and pretty much everything else they plan to put out soon.

Fair enough, I haven't gotten around to Visions yet so it could be wall to wall lightsabers for all I know. I guess I'm not all that interested in animated star wars either :smalltongue:

[Peelee]

Aren't the Fetts foundlings, kind of? You might be right, this is far from my strong suit.



Fair enough, I haven't gotten around to Visions yet so it could be wall to wall lightsabers for all I know. I guess I'm not all that interested in animated star wars either :smalltongue:

Short version is Jango Fett was, more or less, excommunicated.

You should check out Visions. I think you'd like it a lot - the different studios doing different stories independently makes it hard for at least one to not be good, and most of them are good. My faves are episodes 4 and 8, and hated 3 more than you can possibly imagine. Apparently, if you're into anime and familiar with the studio, it's enjoyable, though. But yeah, I think the series overall will be right up your alley. Especially episode 5. I wasn't a fan but I'm significantly in the minority on that one.

[Mystic Muse]

Totally fair. Sorry, I might have gotten that confmated with people who claim that Force users are the only thing that make Star Wars different from any other series. My bad.



While I will not claim that force users are the only thing that makes Star Wars different from any other series, they're the only thing that I personally am really interested in for anything that isn't a movie or series, and the series has to be done really well for me to be interested in extended scenes of non-force users.

I like the Mandalorian, but I wouldn't want to play in a tabletop RPG based around something like the Mandalorian.

I am at least potentially looking forward to book of Boba Fett, even if I think he should have died in the Sarlacc pit. :smalltongue:

[The Glyphstone]

The Sarlaac as a punishment never made sense to me. Sure, it will take 10,000 years to digest you, but you're going to be dead of dehydration or starvation long before that...

[Mechalich]

While it's true that Star Wars without the Force is a fairly generic space fantasy at its core (deliberately so, given Lucas' Campbellian influences), it still has advantages in terms of extremely deep lore, a massive library of art and production designs among the industries best, and a brand name that draws in money and talent like nobody's business. The Mandalorian has production values and acting capability through the roof compared to the average space show and it seems like the future shows, including Book of Boba Fett, will be the same. This is likely to be the topline 'gangsters in space' show ever made, that seems worth a look even without any real Force presence.

[Fyraltari]

And The Mandalorian knew it too. Yeah his badass normal exploits were great to watch, but I don't think the show would have hit nearly as hard as it did without the enigma of the kid psionically saving his behind multiple times, not to mention Ahsoka and Luke(!!!) showing up towards the back half. I'm seeing none of that in this trailer, which just makes me worried that they're tossing it all out for this series.
There wasn't any of it in the trailers for The Mandalorian either.

(Incidentally, the reception to those three characters makes me think, no, Force-sensitives showing up wouldn't cause too much of a negative backlash.)
I think that was not because they were Forcz users but because they were: the cutest ball of adorableness that ever graced television (you may not disagree) and two fan-favourites, specifically.



I think it's going to be at least 2 more years, maybe 3, before we hear a peep about that :smallyuk:
Apparently, as of 2020, it was still scheduled for christmas-time 2023.

I would posit part of the reason for that boredom, stems from the fact that every major Force User we've gotten in A-Canon has been tied in some way to one specific family/dynasty, and the central events surrounding said family. At the very least, I'm beyond bored of that too.
Rebels's Force-users didn't have much to do with the Skywalkers, at least.

Also, Fett is canonically not Mandalorian.
He showed Din his birth certificate (or whatever that official document was) so it sounds like he is. Or rather, he has the legal footing to be recognized as such but doesn't seem to care, which makes sense si ce he wasn't raised in a Mandalorian community.


That being said, I was still really hoping that Visions would have at least one story without going full bore into Jedi and lightsabers. As is, it was a whole series based on a one-trick pony, despite branching out to non-Skywalkers.
Ir it had been one studio making all the episodes, that could have happened, but if you give a dozen dufferent studios the task to pake one animated short film, it's very likely you'll have a dozen animated short films focused on the most iconic/central element of Star Wars. Also, one episode had its protagonist decides not to be a Jedi, and it's one no-one likes.

and am so excited about BoBF. Along with Andor, Rangers of the New Republic, and pretty much everything else they plan to put out soon.
Aren't they making an Ahsoka and a Kenobi series?

I am at least potentially looking forward to book of Boba Fett, even if I think he should have died in the Sarlacc pit. :smalltongue:
*Looks vacuously into the middle distance* Somehow, Boba Fett returned...

The Sarlaac as a punishment never made sense to me. Sure, it will take 10,000 years to digest you, but you're going to be dead of dehydration or starvation long before that...
My guess is that it keeps you alive and conscious for all that time because **** you, but yeah, it's a bit odd. It's also not the most illogical thing in that part of the movie, alas.

This is likely to be the topline 'gangsters in space' show ever made, that seems worth a look even without any real Force presence.

I really should get around to watching Firefly one day...

[Clertar]

That's one thing I like about it - Force users are supposed to be uncommon to downright rare, and the SW universe has a whole galaxy to play around with, and in glad they seem to be waking up to that idea

And yet, in Staw Wars Visions the most well-received aspects were all about the Force and lightsabers :smallbiggrin:

[Mechalich]

I really should get around to watching Firefly one day...

I said 'topline' not 'best' for a reason. Firefly is great, but it budget really limited it - even comparing the show to the movie makes this quite clear. Book of Boba Fett is highly unlikely to have anything like Firefly's dramatic heft or character execution, but in terms of action scenes, visual effects, costuming (including aliens, the group assembled around the banquet table in the trailer might as well be made of dollar bills), and all the other technical factors there's a weight to a Star Wars show that nothing else put in space has right now or likely will for the near future.

Admittedly that's kind of sad, but it still counts to me as a reason to watch, Force or no Force.

[Psyren]

+1 to them explaining the Sarlacc Pit. Until then my headcanon is clear. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCJx2cSz-Lw)


There wasn't any of it in the trailers for The Mandalorian either.

Point, but that was largely because of the big reveal (Grogu) during episode 1. I doubt they're going to stick another Baby Yoda in this show. Still, you're right, there's reason to hope.

[Peelee]

He showed Din his birth certificate (or whatever that official document was) so it sounds like he is. Or rather, he has the legal footing to be recognized as such but doesn't seem to care


The Mandalorian : Are you a Mandalorian?

Boba Fett : I'm a simple man making his way through the galaxy. Like my father before me.

The Mandalorian : Did you take the Creed?

Boba Fett : I give my allegiance to no one.

The Mandalorian : The beskar belongs to the Mandalorians. It was looted from us during the Purge.

Boba Fett : The armor was my father's. Now it's mine.

Mandalorian leader says the Fetts are not Mandalorians. Fett is directly asked if he is a Mandalorian. Fett very explicitly refuses to say that he is multiple times. He shows that the armor did legitimately belong to his father.

Far be it from me to question the unknowns of the Mandalorian legal system, but if the leader of a people says he's not one of them and he refuses to say he's one of them then I'm going to assume that he's not one of them. Even if he owns the national dress.

And yet, in Staw Wars Visions the most well-received aspects were all about the Force and lightsabers :smallbiggrin:

... The entire show was about the Force and lightsabers. That's like saying in Law & Order the most well-received aspects were all really the cops and lawyers.

And even ignoring that, "well received" is different from "I think is good". American Idol has been well received since the early aughts. I've never seen it and never want to. No matter how well received it is.

Point, but that was largely because of the big reveal (Grogu) during episode 1.

There's also that the vast majority of the story (nearly the entirety of it in the first season) had little to no Force use or Force users affecting anything. Nearly all of what happened was done by non-space-wizards.

The Sarlaac as a punishment never made sense to me. Sure, it will take 10,000 years to digest you, but you're going to be dead of dehydration or starvation long before that...

My best guess is that it was just "you'll get eaten alive and die painfully, and to add insult to injury, here's what happens to your corpse"? I dunno, RotJ dropped the ball on a few things.

[hamishspence]

Jango is specifically called out as a Foundling (adopted Mandalorian) as well as someone who "fought in the Mandalorian Civil War".

In that context, the corrupt Mandalorian politician Almec saying "Jango Fett was a common bounty hunter - how he acquired that armour is beyond me" does not need to be taken as "Proof that Jango Fett was no Mandalorian".

https://www.starwars.com/news/temuera-morrison-the-mandalorian-interview

While bounty hunters aren’t necessarily villains, the Fett of The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi was definitely an antagonist. Here, Favreau, Filoni, Rodriguez, and Morrison accomplish a great feat in giving us more of Boba’s background — his father was indeed a Mandalorian, and that armor is rightly his — while showing that he has a code. When Fett gets his armor back, he doesn’t run away. He continues to help the Mandalorian, promising to fulfill his debt that the Child, abducted by dark troopers, will be returned safely. In these moments, Fett becomes less a volcano, more a cowboy hero. “

Boba Fett's overt refusal to claim himself as "a Mandalorian". being evidence that he isn't one in the technical sense, I can agree with.

[Peelee]

Jango is specifically called out as a Foundling (adopted Mandalorian) as well as someone who "fought in the Mandalorian Civil War".

In that context, the corrupt Mandalorian politician Almec saying "Jango Fett was a common bounty hunter - how he acquired that armour is beyond me" does not need to be taken as "Proof that Jango Fett was no Mandalorian".

https://www.starwars.com/news/temuera-morrison-the-mandalorian-interview

While bounty hunters aren’t necessarily villains, the Fett of The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi was definitely an antagonist. Here, Favreau, Filoni, Rodriguez, and Morrison accomplish a great feat in giving us more of Boba’s background — his father was indeed a Mandalorian, and that armor is rightly his — while showing that he has a code. When Fett gets his armor back, he doesn’t run away. He continues to help the Mandalorian, promising to fulfill his debt that the Child, abducted by dark troopers, will be returned safely. In these moments, Fett becomes less a volcano, more a cowboy hero. “

Boba Fett's overt refusal to claim himself as "a Mandalorian". being evidence that he isn't one in the technical sense, I can agree with.

My understanding is Jango was a Mandalorian, was excommunicated (for lack of a better term), and Boba doesn't particularly care about being one, and accepts that he is not. And then doesn't want to give Din reason to deny him the armor.

It doesn't help that Lucas rewrote Boba Fett's origin half a dozen times.

[hamishspence]

I figured that after the War, he just didn't want to join either the Death Watch in hiding, or the pacifists, and struck out on his own as a bounty hunter.

The idea of "excommunicating" hasn't actually been stated in-universe, so, if Jango followed "The Creed" he's just as much a Mandalorian as Din Djarin.

Bo-Katan isn't the Mandalorian leader thanks to her losing the Darksaber, and Almec wasn't "the leader" either.

[Peelee]

I figured that after the War, he just didn't want to join either the Death Watch in hiding, or the pacifists, and struck out on his own as a bounty hunter.

The idea of "excommunicating" hasn't actually been stated in-universe, so, if Jango followed "The Creed" he's just as much a Mandalorian as Din Djarin. And, regardless, Boba claims no allegiance to the Creed.

Bo-Katan isn't the Mandalorian leader thanks to her losing the Darksaber, and Almec wasn't "the leader" either.

The Creed is only taken by a Din's splinter sect, which we already know isn't universally Mandalorian.

Almec was Prime Minister, which, lacking the Darksaber (sidenote: I'd have I referred they kept the helmet as the symbol of leadership rather than the Darksaber, which I'm not a fan of), is as close to leader of the Mandos as one can be.

As for excommunication...that was just my take. He may have renounced on his own. Regardless, it's generally across that one he struck out as a bounty hunter, he was no longer a Mandalorian. Almec may have hyperbolized and obfuscated about the armor for PR reasons (or just being a jerk, or not know g or caring about the exact details).

[Fyraltari]

Mandalorian leader says the Fetts are not Mandalorians.
Do you mean Bo-Katan? Because she's not the leader of the mandalorian yet/any more and her reason for disqualifying him is being a clone, which is stupid and bigoted. Do you mean Almec? Because he wasn't leader (that was Satine at the time) and, most importantly, spends the entire conversation lying tondistance his governement from the actions of other Mandalorians: he notably claims the Death Watch warrior Kenobi shows him an hologram of can't be a Mandalorian.

Fett is directly asked if he is a Mandalorian. Fett very explicitly refuses to say that he is multiple times. He shows that the armor did legitimately belong to his father.
Boba dodges the question (which may be because he knows that Din is a Child of the Watch and they have a stricter and narrower view of the term "Mandalorian" than everybody else), true. And indeed, self-identification is a an important factor of cultural identity, but he intends to walk around with the cultural symbol of the Mandalorians on his face and observes a code of honour not dissimilar to the Mandalorians. His only parent was a mandalorian but he only raised him up to the age of ten and Boba then grew up separated from Mandalorian culture.

Ultimately the question is actually three questions : does he see himself as a Mando? Do the other Mandos see him as one? And do the rest of the galaxy sees him as one?
I'd say the non-mandos definitely see him as a Mando, he may or may not see himself as one and some Mandalorians don't see hip as one (Bo-Katan) while some might (Din Djarin).

Ultimately, I'd say he has everything he needs to "qualify" and the only questio is whether he identifies himself as a Mandalorian or not.

[Psyren]

There's also that the vast majority of the story (nearly the entirety of it in the first season) had little to no Force use or Force users affecting anything. Nearly all of what happened was done by non-space-wizards.

I'm fine with the plot not being driven by them. The kid saves Mando's life pretty early on, and without that there'd have been no other plot, so it gave me something metaphysical to hold my interest.

[Peelee]

Boba dodges the question (which may be because he knows that Din is a Child of the Watch and they have a stricter and narrower view of the term "Mandalorian" than everybody else), true.
He openly says he doesn't follow the Creed, which significantly reduces thar idea. He could just say he was, if he was. Simple. Easy. He could back it up with the record he showed anyway, after all. He didn't. There's no reason to refuse to say he was, dspe ially since he did refute the Creed.

Ultimately, I'd say he has everything he needs to "qualify" and the only questio is whether he identifies himself as a Mandalorian or not.
And he clearly doesn't, even when directly and explicitly given ample opportunity, where doing so would have helped ensure he got what he wanted.

[Aeson]

He openly says he doesn't follow the Creed, which significantly reduces thar idea. He could just say he was, if he was. Simple. Easy. He could back it up with the record he showed anyway, after all. He didn't. There's no reason to refuse to say he was, dspe ially since he did refute the Creed.
Not buying into the creed of some cult isn't the same as not being part of the greater culture of which that cult is a part.

[Fyraltari]

Almec was Prime Minister, which, lacking the Darksaber (sidenote: I'd have I referred they kept the helmet as the symbol of leadership rather than the Darksaber, which I'm not a fan of), is as close to leader of the Mandos as one can be.
What disqualifies Satine, Duchess of Mandalore, exactly?


As for excommunication...that was just my take. He may have renounced on his own. Regardless, it's generally across that one he struck out as a bounty hunter, he was no longer a Mandalorian. Almec may have hyperbolized and obfuscated about the armor for PR reasons (or just being a jerk, or not know g or caring about the exact details).
Remember the context: Obi-Wan demands to know why a Mandalorian warrior was working with the Separatists, Almec says the Mandalorian warriors no longer exists. Obi-Wan says he's met one: Jango Fett, Almec say Jango isn't a Mandalorian. In that very episode it turns out there are a lot of Mandalorian warriors. Why give credit to Almec on this one? He was lying through his teeth.

He openly says he doesn't follow the Creed, which significantly reduces thar idea.
Err...


The Creed is only taken by a Din's splinter sect, which we already know isn't universally Mandalorian.



He could just say he was, if he was. Simple. Easy.
And he could say he wasn't, if he weren't. Simple. Easy.

He could back it up with the record he showed anyway, after all. He didn't. There's no reason to refuse to say he was, dspe ially since he did refute the Creed.
Sure there is: if he suspects that Din doesn't have the same understanding of the word than he does. Din said Bo-Katan and her crew weren't Mandalorians because they didn't cover their faces in front of other. Pressing the argument of "this armor belonged to my father*, so it's mine now" is a better argument than trying to meet the standards of a Child of the Watch on wether he qualifies as a Mandalorian.

*Speaking of, the helmet was blown to smithereens in The Clone Wars where did he get another one?

[Peelee]

Not buying into the creed of some cult isn't the same as not being part of the greater culture of which that cult is a part.

I added that in to address Fyr's but in parentheses.

The creed is irrelevant to the overall point that if he was a Mandalorian, there was no reason whatsoever to avoid confirming it.

[Sapphire Guard]

Boba seems like a pragmatist, he might easily claim to be a Mandalorian one day if it suits his purposes and then not the next.

But Mandalorians themselves seem to disagree a lot on what being a Mandalorian really is.


*Speaking of, the helmet was blown to smithereens in The Clone Wars where did he get another one?

Fanservice trumps logic every time.

I imagine there will be plenty of Force related stuff in the Ahsoka series, I just hope they get claw their way out of 'complain about the PT Jedi' mode.

[Peelee]

Boba seems like a pragmatist, he might easily claim to be a Mandalorian one day if it suits his purposes and then not the next.

It would have suited his purposes in that very scene!

Anyway, he seems to be pretty honorable. I don't think he'd lie about it.

[Sapphire Guard]

He might be shooting for 'the armour is mine' without being bound to Mandalorian obligations.

[Peelee]

He might be shooting for 'the armour is mine' without being bound to Mandalorian obligations.

What Mandalorian obligations? And he helped Don regardless! There is no known circumstance whatsoever in which claiming to be Mandalorian would not have directly furthered his cause there. There were zero downsides. No repurcussions. He could have provided documentation (as he did anyway). He could have agreed to "obligations" to help Din (which he did anyway). There is no reason at all to not claim to be Mandalorian there if he was one. Hell, even if there were "Mandalorian obligations", then by definition, he would be obliged to them as a Mandalorian. Unless he's not a Mandalorian, which is very clearly what he was shooting for there. And all this is ignoring the Doylistic "the show creators have openly said he's not Mandalorian".

Out of universe, nobody at Lucasfilm says he is Mandalorian. In universe, nobody in the galaxy, including him, claim him as a Mandalorian. So when I hear fans saying "well i think he's a Mandalorian", especially in the face of all the evidence against, my mind starts to boggle at some point.

[Wintermoot]

It's a ridiculous debate anyway. what is "a mandalorian". Someone born on Mandalore? Someone of the specific human genetic stock that originated there? Someone adopted by a mandalorian (foundling)?

We don't even know if its a race, a creed, a movement, a religion or all of the above.

In the real world, we are "humans" because we belong to the human race. If we went to a different world and had children born there, they would still be "humans". But would they be Earthlings? Martians? If an American goes to Mars and has a kid, is that kid human? an Earthling? An American?

My understanding of star wars canon is that Jango Fett was NOT of mandalorian genetic stock of origin, that he was adopted into "Mandalore" as a foundling. Then he was excommunicated or somehow cast out.

That would appear to mean that he's no longer "a mandalorian" by some esoteric definition. But its NOT an objective definition. Someone like Din comes along and says rigidly "You are not a mandalorian" but someone else could still consider him to be "a mandalorian"

And Boba? Well Boba is a clone. Based on Clone Wars and Clone Troopers, I don't see any evidence that clones inherit any sort of sociological classifications of their donors.

so you can't say Boba is genetically a Mandalorian, because his donor, Jango was not genetically Mandalorian.
You can't say Boba is a "foundling" Mandalorian, because he was never adopted into the culture and he doesn't intrinsically inherit that from his donor.
You can't say Boba is a child of Mandalore because he's NOT a child, he's a clone. So even if children of foundlings are considered Mandalorian, he doesn't qualify.
I don't think we can claim knowledge of if adopted children of foundlings are intrinsically considered Mandalorian or not.
You certainly can't say Boba is culturally a Mandalorian, because he actively rejects the culture of Mandalore as its been explained to us, choosing to go his own way.

Boba believes the armor is his because it was his fathers. End of.

[Palanan]

New trailer, though rather brief:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCAlNWNbN5c

[Peelee]

New trailer, though rather brief:
I would like to purchase one ticket for the hype train.

I like the Mandalorian, but I wouldn't want to play in a tabletop RPG based around something like the Mandalorian.
Missed this the first time 'round, but that RPG exists and is the current gen of Star Wars TTRPGs: Edge of the Empire. I've wanted to play for quite a long time now.

[Lord Vukodlak]

The Sarlaac as a punishment never made sense to me. Sure, it will take 10,000 years to digest you, but you're going to be dead of dehydration or starvation long before that...

There’s a simple blaster proof explanation for that. Jabba was lying because he wanted to hear them beg.

[Mystic Muse]

Missed this the first time 'round, but that RPG exists and is the current gen of Star Wars TTRPGs: Edge of the Empire. I've wanted to play for quite a long time now.

Which is fair, it's just not for me.

[Peelee]

Which is fair, it's just not for me.

For the record, it's really one-third of the game; there's also Age of Rebellion, which focuses around more military games of Rebel v Empire, and Force and Destiny, which focuses around force users. Each of them is a standalone TTRPG but they can be combined/mix-and-matched seamlessly. Edge of the Empire is what it says in the tin, focusing on the edge of the empire. Not necessarily bounty hunters, but simple pilots, engineers, slicers, scholars, just general life-in-the-galaxy style things when you're not involved in military campaigns or space wizardry.

[DigoDragon]

I would like to purchase one ticket for the hype train.

I'd like a ticket as well. I like what I'm seeing so far.



For the record, it's really one-third of the game; there's also Age of Rebellion, which focuses around more military games of Rebel v Empire, and Force and Destiny, which focuses around force users. Each of them is a standalone TTRPG but they can be combined/mix-and-matched seamlessly. Edge of the Empire is what it says in the tin, focusing on the edge of the empire. Not necessarily bounty hunters, but simple pilots, engineers, slicers, scholars, just general life-in-the-galaxy style things when you're not involved in military campaigns or space wizardry.

Thank you for this synopsis. I saw the books at my FLGS and was confused; they all seemed like a "PHB" and didn't explain themselves well to me on how they fit together. I think Edge sounds the most interesting of the three, followed by Force.

[druid91]

The Sarlaac as a punishment never made sense to me. Sure, it will take 10,000 years to digest you, but you're going to be dead of dehydration or starvation long before that...

I mean, in the old EU, nope. The Sarlacc integrates your nervous system with it's own so you're awake and aware the whole time it takes to digest you, as it absorbs your psyche into it's own. It was also both Sapient, and malevolent.

Because y'know. The EU liked to take a lot of throw away comments literally.

[The Glyphstone]

I mean, in the old EU, nope. The Sarlacc integrates your nervous system with it's own so you're awake and aware the whole time it takes to digest you, as it absorbs your psyche into it's own. It was also both Sapient, and malevolent.

Because y'know. The EU liked to take a lot of throw away comments literally.

It is stuff like this that makes me wonder why people complained about Disney shoving it all into Legends. The only good EU properties I've ever heard people talk about were Rogue Squadron and Thrawn. At least Disney won't be dropping any moons on Chewbacca.

[Fyraltari]

I mean, in the old EU, nope. The Sarlacc integrates your nervous system with it's own so you're awake and aware the whole time it takes to digest you, as it absorbs your psyche into it's own. It was also both Sapient, and malevolent.

Because y'know. The EU liked to take a lot of throw away comments literally.

It will always be funny to me that the Old EU decided that Obi-Wan stating that the Jedi Order had protected the Republic for "a thousand generations" meant that the Old Republic would have celebrated its 25, 000th year of continuous existence this very year. Not only was the old man willfully looking back on better times while in casual conversation was not being hyperbolic, he was precise to the fifth decimal place!

[druid91]

It's a ridiculous debate anyway. what is "a mandalorian". Someone born on Mandalore? Someone of the specific human genetic stock that originated there? Someone adopted by a mandalorian (foundling)?

We don't even know if its a race, a creed, a movement, a religion or all of the above.

In the real world, we are "humans" because we belong to the human race. If we went to a different world and had children born there, they would still be "humans". But would they be Earthlings? Martians? If an American goes to Mars and has a kid, is that kid human? an Earthling? An American?

My understanding of star wars canon is that Jango Fett was NOT of mandalorian genetic stock of origin, that he was adopted into "Mandalore" as a foundling. Then he was excommunicated or somehow cast out.

That would appear to mean that he's no longer "a mandalorian" by some esoteric definition. But its NOT an objective definition. Someone like Din comes along and says rigidly "You are not a mandalorian" but someone else could still consider him to be "a mandalorian"

And Boba? Well Boba is a clone. Based on Clone Wars and Clone Troopers, I don't see any evidence that clones inherit any sort of sociological classifications of their donors.

so you can't say Boba is genetically a Mandalorian, because his donor, Jango was not genetically Mandalorian.
You can't say Boba is a "foundling" Mandalorian, because he was never adopted into the culture and he doesn't intrinsically inherit that from his donor.
You can't say Boba is a child of Mandalore because he's NOT a child, he's a clone. So even if children of foundlings are considered Mandalorian, he doesn't qualify.
I don't think we can claim knowledge of if adopted children of foundlings are intrinsically considered Mandalorian or not.
You certainly can't say Boba is culturally a Mandalorian, because he actively rejects the culture of Mandalore as its been explained to us, choosing to go his own way.

Boba believes the armor is his because it was his fathers. End of.

It's very obviously a religion. Djin even says so at one point confirming that it's still true even in new Canon.

[The Glyphstone]

There is at least one RL example of a label being applied simultaneously to a religion and an ethnicity, where you can be one without necessarily being the other. Couldn't the same principles apply to the grouping of 'Mandalorian'? A person genetically descended from the natives of Mandalore, and someone who follows The Way, aren't inherently linked in either direction?

[Peelee]

It is stuff like this that makes me wonder why people complained about Disney shoving it all into Legends. The only good EU properties I've ever heard people talk about were Rogue Squadron and Thrawn. At least Disney won't be dropping any moons on Chewbacca.
There were more, but you're still close enough for government work. There's a reason I loudly applauded the Disney canon wipe. Except I think they didn't go far enough with leaving the Clone Wars in.

It will always be funny to me that the Old EU decided that Obi-Wan stating that the Jedi Order had protected the Republic for "a thousand generations" meant that the Old Republic would have celebrated its 25, 000th year of continuous existence this very year. Not only was the old man willfully looking back on better times while in casual conversation was not being hyperbolic, he was precise to the fifth decimal place!
Pendulum swinging the other way isn't much better. The Republic has only been around for a thousand years, and coincidentally also precisely this very year!

It's very obviously a religion. Djin even says so at one point confirming that it's still true even in new Canon.
Speaking of taking throwaway lines literally... :smalltongue:

[druid91]

There were more, but you're still close enough for government work. There's a reason I loudly applauded the Disney canon wipe. Except I think they didn't go far enough with leaving the Clone Wars in.

Pendulum swinging the other way isn't much better. The Republic has only been around for a thousand years, and coincidentally also precisely this very year!

Speaking of taking throwaway lines literally... :smalltongue:

True, but if it walks like a religion, talks like a religion, and says it's a religion... :smalltongue:

[Peelee]

True, but if it walks like a religion, talks like a religion, and says it's a religion... :smalltongue:

The Way may be a religion (though I'm not willing to completely commit to that, I'm also not discounting it). But followers of The Way are not indicative of Mandalorians as a whole.

[Fyraltari]

It's very obviously a religion. Djin even says so at one point confirming that it's still true even in new Canon.
Err no? Djin calls it a "creed" but that seems more in the sense of "code" or "way of life" than religion. There's no indication that it has any supernatural component.

Edit: Also, Djin isn't very knowledgeable about Mandalore, so I wouldn't take his word as authoritative.

Pendulum swinging the other way isn't much better. The Republic has only been around for a thousand years, and coincidentally also precisely this very year!

I'm not sure how "doing the exact same thing with another quote" counts as "swinging a pendulum", but true enough.

[druid91]

Err no? Djin calls it a "creed" but that seems more in the sense of "code" or "way of life" than religion. There's no indication that it has any supernatural component.

Edit: Also, Djin isn't very knowledgeable about Mandalore, so I wouldn't take his word as authoritative.


I'm not sure how "doing the exact same thing with another quote" counts as "swinging a pendulum", but true enough.


The Way may be a religion (though I'm not willing to completely commit to that, I'm also not discounting it). But followers of The Way are not indicative of Mandalorians as a whole.

https://youtu.be/vRhoKQj-_qI

At about 33-34 seconds in, he says "I'm a Mandalorian, Weapons are part of my Religion."

Given he hasn't been shown to have some *other* religion, and it was previously a religion in the EU.... Wouldn't it make sense to assume that's what he meant?

[Fyraltari]

https://youtu.be/vRhoKQj-_qI

At about 33-34 seconds in, he says "I'm a Mandalorian, Weapons are part of my Religion."

Given he hasn't been shown to have some *other* religion, and it was previously a religion in the EU.... Wouldn't it make sense to assume that's what he meant?

I'm French, Food is part of my Religion.

Guess, French is a religion, now.

Edit:I know this is the Internet but people don't always mean exactly what they are saying. Sometimes, they use things called "hyperboles", "similies", "irony", "metonymies" and other word-tricks to carry meaning by relying on shared context to modify the interpreation lf speech.
:smalltongue:

[Sapphire Guard]

Nothing is indicative of Mandalorians as a whole, because they're composed of a bunch of different sects constantly in conflict over what being a mandalorian actually is.

[druid91]

I'm French, Food is part of my Religion.

Guess, French is a religion, now.

Edit:I know this is the Internet but people don't always mean exactly what they are saying. Sometimes, they use things called "hyperboles", "similies", "irony", "metonymies" and other word-tricks to carry meaning by relying on shared context to modify the interpreation lf speech.
:smalltongue:

Which is a possible option, but incredibly unlikely. At which point it's just skepticism about it being a religion for the sake of skepticism.

[Peelee]

I'm not sure how "doing the exact same thing with another quote" counts as "swinging a pendulum", but true enough.
What other quote?

I'm French, Food is part of my Religion.
Perfectly put. That's exactly how I interpreted that line.

[Fyraltari]

Which is a possible option, but incredibly unlikely.

Seriously dude, you've never said "It's part of my religion" as a semi-serious way to say "it's important to me"?

Also, can you point to any time Djin does something religious? Does he ever pray? Make sacrifice? Ask for a blessing? Expresses belief in an afterlife?

[Peelee]

Seriously dude, you've never said "It's part of my religion" as a semi-serious way to say "it's important to me"?

Also, can you point to any time Djin does something religious? Does he ever pray? Make sacrifice? Ask for a blessing? Expresses belief in an afterlife?

Aye. One of the biggest things for him is not letting others see his face. He cannot take off his helmet in front of other beings. When asked what happens, he doesn't say that he won't go to Mandalorian Good Place, or that his soul will be corrupted, or any sort of metaphysical consequences. He says he can never put it back on again. He doesn't get cast into the fires of Mandalorian Bad Place when he dies. He simply stops being part of the group.

Now,i have no problemn calling followers of The Way a sect, or a cult, but I would use both of those in terms of how they relate to general Mandalorian culture and not in any religious sense.

[druid91]

Seriously dude, you've never said "It's part of my religion" as a semi-serious way to say "it's important to me"?

Also, can you point to any time Djin does something religious? Does he ever pray? Make sacrifice? Ask for a blessing? Expresses belief in an afterlife?

No? Also...

... Uh yes? Like a full 25% of his character is his religion. Doing things because that's what it means to be a Mandalorian. What's right to do for a Mandalorian. How many times has the helmet thing come up?

I think you're too caught up with trying to map all religious belief to a preconceived notion of what religion looks like.


Aye. One of the biggest things for him is not letting others see his face. He cannot take off his helmet in front of other beings. When asked what happens, he doesn't say that he won't go to Mandalorian Good Place, or that his soul will be corrupted, or any sort of metaphysical consequences. He says he can never put it back on again. He doesn't get cast into the fires of Mandalorian Bad Place when he dies. He simply stops being part of the group.

Now,i have no problemn calling followers of The Way a sect, or a cult, but I would use both of those in terms of how they relate to general Mandalorian culture and not in any religious sense.

Again. You guys are way too caught up with trying to map it onto certain IRL religions that shall not be mentioned. Not all religions are like that.

And also again, Mandalorians in the EU were a religion. They haven't changed all that much in the new Canon and give off explicitly religious vibes, while outright stating in at least one place "Hey we're a religion."

[Fyraltari]

... Uh yes? Like a full 25% of his character is his religion. Doing things because that's what it means to be a Mandalorian. What's right to do for a Mandalorian. How many times has the helmet thing come up?

I think you're too caught up with trying to map all religious belief to a preconceived notion of what religion looks like.

That's a circular argument. Yes,, if "Mandalorian" is a religion, then trying to behave as Mandalorian as possible is religious. But if it is not, then it is not.

[hamishspence]

In-universe, some other Mandalorians refer to the Children of the Watch as religious zealots.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Children_of_the_Watch

[Sapphire Guard]

Bo Katan is a traitor twice over to the Mandalorian Way, she's not the most reliable source.

[hamishspence]

Maybe - but the idea seems to be that the "Way of the Mandalore" followed by the Children of the Watch is supposed be a religion of a kind. The usage of the term "Creed" does make it sound that way.

The name also suggests that they're a splinter group of the Death Watch (Bo-Katan's own organization early on) - especially in the context of the guys who rescued the young Din Djarin and raised him, wearing Death Watch style armour, right down to the "shriek-hawk" symbol.

She might call them "religious zealots" but I think they themselves would only take issue with the "zealots" part of the description.

[Palanan]

Yet another trailer, this one a little bit longer:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi9GRafMz2E



Mainly the same scenes before, although...

...new ship at 0:27, with some "witness my arrival, I'm significant" vibes.

Also, I'm getting the sense that Boba might have some prosthetics in his post-Sarlacc phase.

Probably a few more trailers to go until we get to the caboose of the hype train.

[Peelee]

Tomorrow, tomorrow, there's always tomorrow. It's only a day aaawwwaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy!

[Dienekes]

Honestly, in the old EU (which I generally like) I always found Mandalorians and especially Boba Fett as kinda annoying fanwanky nonsense creations.

But yeah, I am actually looking forward to this show.

[Palanan]

Dec. 29, according to the current banner on Disney+. Just in time for them to raise the annual subscription by $10. :smallannoyed:

I love Mando, and I’m expecting to enjoy Boba Fett, and definitely looking forward to Ahsoka and the High Republic series, not to mention Visions Season Two.

But the various Marvel shows this year have been…a mixed bag, to say the least. Many of the new shows probably won’t be out until 2023 at the earliest, and probably with another price increase by then.

I'm confident Boba Fett will deliver, but not as sure after that.

[Peelee]

Honestly, in the old EU (which I generally like) I always found Mandalorians and especially Boba Fett as kinda annoying fanwanky nonsense creations.

But yeah, I am actually looking forward to this show.

From the Travis books and Bounty Hunter Wars, I totally understand. Loved their representation in KOTOR 1 and 2, though.

[ecarden]

From the Travis books and Bounty Hunter Wars, I totally understand. Loved their representation in KOTOR 1 and 2, though.

I never got KOTOR 2 to actually work, but agree on KOTOR 1. I really think a key function of that and one of the reasons the Mandalorian only sort of works, is that it's willing to actually address both the strengths and weaknesses of the Mandalorians, instead of having the Mandalorians be unstoppable badasses. I think my favorite scene out of the entire game may be the Carth-Canderous conversation on this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EK85sQyE5Ls).

[Peelee]

Dec. 29, according to the current banner on Disney+.

Dangit, I could have sworn that it was the 28th today. Don't I feel embarrassed.

[Sapphire Guard]

Mandos as a concept just seemed weirdly uncreative. We know how to make this super durable metal, time to use it to make the same exact suit of armour 100 million times.

it ends up being pretty drama sapping, as it results in action scenes vainly trying to somehow squeeze tension out of shooting blasters at someone that is nearly invulnerable to blasters. It's such a massive advantage that it breaks the combat.

If this show wants me to take an interest ( which, honestly, it probably doesn't) it'll have to find some way around that problem.

[druid91]

I mean to be fair In 90% of star wars media blasters aren't usually a threat to a main character because lightsaber.

[Fyraltari]

I mean to be fair In 90% of star wars media blasters aren't usually a threat to a main character because lightsaber.

And in 9 additional % blasters aren't a threat because stormtroopers/droids. :smalltongue:

[Sapphire Guard]

Not the same.

With a lightsabre, there's potential to not be quick enough, there's still potential danger (and we do see Jedi get overwhelmed or have to flee)

Mando gets into utterly stakesless fights where he's held up at gunpoint when said gunpoint has no prospect of hurting him. They do Western style standoffs like with the head of security in that town where they pretend that being quick on the draw matters, when Mando is at no risk at all, because even if the other guy shoots first it will just bounce off him.

See: Head of Security in that Town, Cobb Vanth, etc.

[Peelee]

Mandos as a concept just seemed weirdly uncreative. We know how to make this super durable metal, time to use it to make the same exact suit of armour 100 million times.

it ends up being pretty drama sapping, as it results in action scenes vainly trying to somehow squeeze tension out of shooting blasters at someone that is nearly invulnerable to blasters. It's such a massive advantage that it breaks the combat.

If this show wants me to take an interest ( which, honestly, it probably doesn't) it'll have to find some way around that problem.



The easy answer is to not watch the show, though.

[Sapphire Guard]

That is indeed the plan.

[ecarden]

The easy answer is to not watch the show, though.

That's one option, but I do think he's put a finger on an actual problem with the show, though not the only one. The broader problem is the lack of threat to our heroes. The tiny group capturing the light cruiser (which, if I'm reading things right would have a crew of about 750 people) isn't great for threat management, but it's not like the unarmored ones were any more injured at the end than the armored ones. The broader problem is just there's no actual threat to our heroes?

You can get away with a bit with sort of tactical rock-paper-scissors. If the Mandos can get into infantry combat, they'll win, if the Imperials can keep it at ground of space vehicle level then they'll win, but then...

I totally fail to understand how in season 1

How could it possibly have killed the other Mandalorians? Given what we see of Mando's capabilities, that ought to be entirely beyond them.

I mean, plot armor almost always exists and is difficult to handle narratively and making it literal armor in-universe seems like a bad solution to me.

[Fyraltari]

How could it possibly have killed the other Mandalorians? Given what we see of Mando's capabilities, that ought to be entirely beyond them.

Lotsa dudes.

[ecarden]

Lotsa dudes.

Except as we see in the 5 vs a cruiser-full later on, numbers are quite irrelevant when facing down Mandalorians.

[Fyraltari]

Except as we see in the 5 vs a cruiser-full later on, numbers are quite irrelevant when facing down Mandalorians.

Same with Jedi, yet Order 66 happened.

[ecarden]

Same with Jedi, yet Order 66 happened.

Right, but there at least we've got surprise betrayal by loyal troops, whereas the Mandalorians were attacked by a known enemy who was attempting to attack what had to be a fortified and prepared location. If they'd just bombed it from orbit or bombers or something, that would be fine (even some sort of gas would work, maybe, depending on how their helmets work), but they apparently took them in ground combat...

[Fyraltari]

Right, but there at least we've got surprise betrayal by loyal troops, whereas the Mandalorians were attacked by a known enemy who was attempting to attack what had to be a fortified and prepared location. If they'd just bombed it from orbit or bombers or something, that would be fine (even some sort of gas would work, maybe, depending on how their helmets work), but they apparently took them in ground combat...

I was thinking more of the attack on the Jedi Temple. Where Vader and the clones just walked in guns blazing.

Also, we didn't see any of the fighting. Maybe they did gaz the compound prior to assaulting it taking out most of the warriors.

At the end of the day, I think it's wise to remember that the protagonists of the various Star Wars series all not only have copious amounts of plot armor but also tend to be the very best in their chosen fields and so should not be used as a baseline.

[druid91]

Except as we see in the 5 vs a cruiser-full later on, numbers are quite irrelevant when facing down Mandalorians.

You mean heroes. Not Mandalorians. Heroes.

[Tyndmyr]

I mean to be fair In 90% of star wars media blasters aren't usually a threat to a main character because lightsaber.

Yeah, that's honestly true almost universally. Blasters in star wars are more light and noise than they are a real threat.

Minions excepted, of course.

Those aren't really major fights. Even without a lightsaber, nobody is remembering Han v Random Stormtrooper 367 as that big of a deal. It's just a kind of light background pressure that's happening while the focus is on other things. Fights like Luke v Vader, that's where the actual tension lies.

[Dienekes]

I mean to be fair In 90% of star wars media blasters aren't usually a threat to a main character because lightsaber.

I think a lot of the time the scenes are set in such a way that there are other mitigating factors in place.

In the original Star Wars, Troopers weren’t yet a joke so there was tension that they may actually hit the main characters. Hell they’re introduced taking out Princess Leia.

In Empire when troopers are present the question becomes: Will they get off planet in time? Or can the heroes save Han from Boba Fett or Luke from Darth Vader in time and the troopers are just presented as an obstacle in their way.

By Return or the Jedi troopers kind fell into a joke and there honestly wasn’t much tension in the Endor fight. Thankfully the actual interesting stuff was happening between Luke, Vader, and the Emperor in the throne room.

The prequels often just don’t have tension in their fights. Though the few times they add it, involves facing down a Sith or the heroes losing their lightsabers for a moment.

Now all that said, I did think there was some tension in Mando’s fights. Partially because I think they did tone down Beskarr a bit. There are passing mentions of kill shots, being completely outnumbered, or just being so close even the armor wouldn’t save you. Which is good. Or the threat is not about Mando’s survival but those around him.

[Peelee]

Except as we see in the 5 vs a cruiser-full later on, numbers are quite irrelevant when facing down Mandalorians.

Lots of dudes who are unprepared to take on Mandalorians and are constantly split up unto much smaller groups, and even then the Mandalorians figured they would be in trouble for parts of it..

Their armor covers center mass, for the most part. They can still be hit and injured through it. They don't act like they are indestructible terminators, they still act like they are in danger during overwhelming firefights,

[ecarden]

Lots of dudes who are unprepared to take on Mandalorians and are constantly split up unto much smaller groups, and even then the Mandalorians figured they would be in trouble for parts of it..

Their armor covers center mass, for the most part. They can still be hit and injured through it. They don't act like they are indestructible terminators, they still act like they are in danger during overwhelming firefights,

They're not? See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCK45I58w9E&t=100s he rushes two automatic weapons down an open corridor, with no cover to hide behind, takes a massive number of hits and...falls down, tosses the grenades. Then gets back up and is totally fine. (admittedly, this is the earlier fight, not the later one on the cruiser, though I thought there was a similar scene there, they don't even really pretend the troopers/naval personnel are the threat, the only threats are the Moff and his army of killer robots, which is sort of hilarious given the history of droids vs clones in star wars...)

They make a big deal of talking about the threat, but it's not actually present. In my view, Beskar armor lets Star Wars succumb to the worst of its impulses towards invincible heroes which are only barely watchable with Jedi. Star Wars has always had a hard time making the villain's forces (barring specific individuals) threatening to the heroes and the less 'special' the heroes are, the less sense it makes that the empire ever managed to do anything.

ETA: I'm not a massive fan of the clone wars, but even with a far less visually threatening enemy, one thing it got right was that the droids were actually a threat, even to named characters (at least those not guaranteed to survive). And not in a 'they killed a bunch of us offscreen somehow' way. For me, at least, tension requires at least the illusion of a significant threat. Which is why the last episode actually generally worked for me, the droids were a significant threat to the heroes.

For me, at least, the more the problem is 'the remnants of our troops are sort of ****ty' and the less it is 'there's this technological problem we apparently know about, but aren't even bothering to try to solve, or adjust our tactics to' the more my suspension of disbelief remains. People missing isn't shocking, people not adapting to folks who can act like terminators is...

[Tyndmyr]

They make a big deal of talking about the threat, but it's not actually present. In my view, Beskar armor lets Star Wars succumb to the worst of its impulses towards invincible heroes which are only barely watchable with Jedi. Star Wars has always had a hard time making the villain's forces (barring specific individuals) threatening to the heroes and the less 'special' the heroes are, the less sense it makes that the empire ever managed to do anything.

On the bright side, it at least kind of justifies it.

While there is still a certain amount of plot convenience in shots getting attracted to the invincible armor, at least you have a fig leaf of plausibility for why a guy hasn't died with a mountain of people shooting at him.

I'd rather that than just "oh look, they missed again," yknow?

[ecarden]

On the bright side, it at least kind of justifies it.

While there is still a certain amount of plot convenience in shots getting attracted to the invincible armor, at least you have a fig leaf of plausibility for why a guy hasn't died with a mountain of people shooting at him.

I'd rather that than just "oh look, they missed again," yknow?

See, I'm actually the reverse, because at least with that there's always the threat that they'll actually hit. Whereas with the armor...not so much. Now, they could take away the armor at some point to up the stakes, but they've committed real hard to him always being armored up and weirdly the empire seems to have no interest in creating their own armor for their own people (to the point when, after massacring most of the Mandalorians, they leave the armor on the bodies so...Mando can identify them?).

For me, constant missing is bad (this is one reason you want some mauve shirts around to injure/kill off) but my brain is willing to accept it as a narrative convention that can't really be adapted to. Why does the hero make it from piece of cover 1 to piece of cover 2 while under automatic fire? Because that's what the author says. Fine, the characters can't do anything about that. Why is the hero able to massacre you in large numbers? Because of his magic armor. Okay, the characters ought to be able to do something about that, whether it's digging out the plans to the Duchess or building themselves a big freaking magnet, or always sealing off any area they get into with blast doors and never, ever engaging in direct combat...but they don't do that, so I blame the characters instead of narrative convention and that breaks suspension of disbelief for me.

[hamishspence]

Now, they could take away the armor at some point to up the stakes, but they've committed real hard to him always being armored up and weirdly the empire seems to have no interest in creating their own armor for their own people (to the point when, after massacring most of the Mandalorians, they leave the armor on the bodies so...Mando can identify them?).

The ingots with Imperial symbols that Mando was paid in, come from the fact that the Empire did at some point melt down Mando armour and turn it into ingots, after they'd killed them.

[druid91]

They're not? See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCK45I58w9E&t=100s he rushes two automatic weapons down an open corridor, with no cover to hide behind, takes a massive number of hits and...falls down, tosses the grenades. Then gets back up and is totally fine. (admittedly, this is the earlier fight, not the later one on the cruiser, though I thought there was a similar scene there, they don't even really pretend the troopers/naval personnel are the threat, the only threats are the Moff and his army of killer robots, which is sort of hilarious given the history of droids vs clones in star wars...)

They make a big deal of talking about the threat, but it's not actually present. In my view, Beskar armor lets Star Wars succumb to the worst of its impulses towards invincible heroes which are only barely watchable with Jedi. Star Wars has always had a hard time making the villain's forces (barring specific individuals) threatening to the heroes and the less 'special' the heroes are, the less sense it makes that the empire ever managed to do anything.

ETA: I'm not a massive fan of the clone wars, but even with a far less visually threatening enemy, one thing it got right was that the droids were actually a threat, even to named characters (at least those not guaranteed to survive). And not in a 'they killed a bunch of us offscreen somehow' way. For me, at least, tension requires at least the illusion of a significant threat. Which is why the last episode actually generally worked for me, the droids were a significant threat to the heroes.

For me, at least, the more the problem is 'the remnants of our troops are sort of ****ty' and the less it is 'there's this technological problem we apparently know about, but aren't even bothering to try to solve, or adjust our tactics to' the more my suspension of disbelief remains. People missing isn't shocking, people not adapting to folks who can act like terminators is...

Except if you look at the way he's running, he's curled his arms up defensively to keep from getting hit in any vital parts.

Again, Mando gets hit and hurt. Mando gets overwhelmed and in bad spots several times. The fact that in specific scenarios he can be a tank doesn't negate the fact that in others he's vulnerable and they demonstrate that repeatedly.

[Sapphire Guard]

If he can't be hurt when charging into the teeth of heavy fire corridor down a narrow corridor with "heavy blasters", in what other circumstances can he be injured by blasters? He has his arms curled up because he's holding the detonators.

A lightsabre was never invulnerability. Qui Gon and Obi Wan are defeated by the TF forces, they have to flee or be overwhelmed. They have to run, hide, and get help because otherwise they will eventually be brought down.

In Attack of the Clones, the Jedi are defeated, we see several of them killed by blaster fire and the survivors have to be saved by the Clones arrival. Otherwise they would be defeated by blasterfire.

Mandalorian armour works against Jedi because Jedi are still dangerous, it's levelling the playing field. But when its against ordinary blaster fire which doesn't seem to be able to penetrate their armour, the action scenes lose their stakes.

It's a result of blindly following tropes from westerns, because they're trying to be a space western. But Westerns don't have invulnerable armour, so their standoffs make sense. When mando gets into western style standoffs, he has a gigantic advantage. But the story still tries to play it as though it's between equals and whoever draws first will win, because they are following the trope rather than trying to make sense.

[ecarden]

The ingots with Imperial symbols that Mando was paid in, come from the fact that the Empire did at some point melt down Mando armour and turn it into ingots, after they'd killed them.

Right, though not the armor from the Mandalorians they killed in the culvert. But even then, they seem to be using them as some sort of currency or trade good rather than as...you know...armor? Or weapons? Or anything else? Which is just weird to me.

Also, everything Sapphire Guard said. To tag onto that, the fact that the author says that our protagonist will draw first doesn't remove the stakes from a duel. The fact that our protagonist is invulnerable to bullets does.

[Peelee]

If he can't be hurt when charging into the teeth of heavy fire corridor down a narrow corridor with "heavy blasters", in what other circumstances can he be injured by blasters? He has his arms curled up because he's holding the detonators.

A lightsabre was never invulnerability. Qui Gon and Obi Wan are defeated by the TF forces, they have to flee or be overwhelmed. They have to run, hide, and get help because otherwise they will eventually be brought down.

In Attack of the Clones, the Jedi are defeated, we see several of them killed by blaster fire and the survivors have to be saved by the Clones arrival. Otherwise they would be defeated by blasterfire.

Mandalorian armour works against Jedi because Jedi are still dangerous, it's levelling the playing field. But when its against ordinary blaster fire which doesn't seem to be able to penetrate their armour, the action scenes lose their stakes.

It's a result of blindly following tropes from westerns, because they're trying to be a space western. But Westerns don't have invulnerable armour, so their standoffs make sense. When mando gets into western style standoffs, he has a gigantic advantage. But the story still tries to play it as though it's between equals and whoever draws first will win, because they are following the trope rather than trying to make sense.

The armor doesn't cover everything. It covers his chest and andomen, back, head, shoulders, thighs, and right shin. Arms are exposed, sides are exposed, shin is exposed, upper chest and neck are exposed. He can be hit there. There is no armor in those places.

And sure, you might say "but nobody shoots him in those places". And you would be right. That doesn't mean there's no danger. He still believes that he can be killed. He takes cover numerous times in The Mandalorian, he believes he is about to die in The Sin, he believes he cannot take on an AT-ST in Sanctuary, he takes significant defensive measures in The Gunslinger, he believes he needs to escape or die in The Reckoning, he believes he will die in Redemption. And all this is just season 1.

All shows require suspension of disbelief. In this case you have to suspend your disbelief that he's not being shot in the places he's unarmored. Frankly, I have no problem doing that - he also wasn't shot in The Believer, when he doesn't even have Mandalorian iron protecting him. And he clearly acts as if he is not an indistructible terminator.

At the end of the day, if you can't suspend your disbelief to enjoy it, then that's fine. You do you. But coming into a thread about a new show to complain about it when you don't even plan to watch the show isn't. That's not cool.

[Trafalgar]

To me its very strange that Mandalorian armor effectively stops blasters but Stormtrooper armor can't stop stones and clubs.

[Dienekes]

To me its very strange that Mandalorian armor effectively stops blasters but Stormtrooper armor can't stop stones and clubs.

I mean, most ballistic vests don't stop knives.

[Fyraltari]

Right, though not the armor from the Mandalorians they killed in the culvert.

I had assumed they took the beskar armour and left all the regular non-invicible armour parts behind. Are you sure any of what Mando found there was Beskar?

[Trafalgar]

I mean, most ballistic vests don't stop knives.

Knives can penetrate kevlar fabric but do not penetrate military grade body armor. The ordinary plastic hard hat I wear for work has stopped all sorts of things including a hammer an idiot coworker dropped from a roof. In the US, safety glasses are designed to deflect a nail fired by a nail gun.

So a stormtrooper should be able to take a blow on the head from a club, especially when wielded by an Ewok.

[Peelee]

Knives can penetrate kevlar fabric but do not penetrate military grade body armor. The ordinary plastic hard hat I wear for work has stopped all sorts of things including a hammer an idiot coworker dropped from a roof. In the US, safety glasses are designed to deflect a nail fired by a nail gun.

So a stormtrooper should be able to take a blow on the head from a club, especially when wielded by an Ewok.

How does military grade body armor work against shockwaves? How does your hard hat work against circular saws? How do safety glasses work against lasers? You can't account for all the things all the time.

Not to mention that stormtrooper armor isn't a powersuit. You hit an armored person with a big stick, you now have an armored person on the ground. Pretty sure this tactic also works on military members decked out in the latest ceramic armor.

[druid91]

If he can't be hurt when charging into the teeth of heavy fire corridor down a narrow corridor with "heavy blasters", in what other circumstances can he be injured by blasters? He has his arms curled up because he's holding the detonators.

A lightsabre was never invulnerability. Qui Gon and Obi Wan are defeated by the TF forces, they have to flee or be overwhelmed. They have to run, hide, and get help because otherwise they will eventually be brought down.

In Attack of the Clones, the Jedi are defeated, we see several of them killed by blaster fire and the survivors have to be saved by the Clones arrival. Otherwise they would be defeated by blasterfire.

Mandalorian armour works against Jedi because Jedi are still dangerous, it's levelling the playing field. But when its against ordinary blaster fire which doesn't seem to be able to penetrate their armour, the action scenes lose their stakes.

It's a result of blindly following tropes from westerns, because they're trying to be a space western. But Westerns don't have invulnerable armour, so their standoffs make sense. When mando gets into western style standoffs, he has a gigantic advantage. But the story still tries to play it as though it's between equals and whoever draws first will win, because they are following the trope rather than trying to make sense.

Except all the times where he almost dies to people with blasters.

Again, you're using the fact that he has an advantage that lets him do heroic nonsense to say there's no tension.... but ignoring all the times where that advantage wasn't good enough. Of course he's got an advantage that makes him better than some schmuck. He's the main character.

[Trafalgar]

How does military grade body armor work against shockwaves? How does your hard hat work against circular saws? How do safety glasses work against lasers? You can't account for all the things all the time.

We were talking about clubs and stones and now you are talking about lasers and circular saws. You are 100% right. An ewok with a laser and a circular saw can take out a stormtrooper.

The point is that stormtrooper armor, as portrayed in the movies, is less effective than a $10 hardhat.



Not to mention that stormtrooper armor isn't a powersuit. You hit an armored person with a big stick, you now have an armored person on the ground. Pretty sure this tactic also works on military members decked out in the latest ceramic armor.

It's pretty unlikely that someone would get knocked down. I suggest going on youtube and watching some HEMA videos. You will see lots of people in armor getting hit with sticks and remain standing.

Hitting a modern soldier with a stick is not very wise. They will probably just shoot you.

[Peelee]

We were talking about clubs and stones and now you are talking about lasers and circular saws. You are 100% right. An ewok with a laser and a circular saw can take out a stormtrooper.

The point is that stormtrooper armor, as portrayed in the movies, is less effective than a $10 hardhat.



It's pretty unlikely that someone would get knocked down. I suggest going on youtube and watching some HEMA videos. You will see lots of people in armor getting hit with sticks and remain standing.

Hitting a modern soldier with a stick is not very wise. They will probably just shoot you.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=ras7eP2jQUU

Hey look, a hard hat working and yet the guy still getting knocked down. Please, explain to me how this happened, I am confused since according to your argument, physics should have stopped working since the hard hat protected him.

At the end of the day, you have no problem with a moon-sized space station (the entire schematics of which fit on data tapes), lasers that travel slower than bullets, lasts that can blow up entire planets, space wizards, and laser swords that resist other forms of lasers, but a person getting knocked down by being hit with heavy rocks is a bridge too far. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to say that you make a good point here.



As for the show, I LOVED it. Really like how they are going through his rise to power instead of just purely picking up where they left off with the greatest of him claiming the throne, while still dipping a toe into what it will be like trying to consolidate power. Also, the new Tusken costumes look amazing. I still long the original ones, with their much more back-world look, but these are pretty dang nice, I gotta say.

Theme music isn't as good as Mando's, but that's a high bar and it's still delightful.

[Sapphire Guard]

I'm not hatewatching, I'm not calling out other people for liking the show. It was not a an irrelevant driveby swipe, the conversation immediately before my post was about wonky previous depictions of Mandalorians. I would put Mando among those. The reason it's relevant to this thread is because the lead is also wearing Mandalorian armour, so the action problems are likely to continue. 'Based on the previous depiction of a similar thing in the recent past with similar inspirations, I'm not enthused about this' doesn't seem like such an unreasonable or irrelevant observation.

I would have left it there, but several people jumped in with how it was the same as a lightsabre, which I don't think is the case, so I kept going with the conversation, then dropped it, but it continued without me, so I chimed in again.

Random swipes at the prequels or sequels happen all the time, why is it suddenly over the line this time? It's relevant to whether or not I'll be interested in the show. I'm keeping an eye on this thread partly to see if this show becomes worth pursuing, even though currently I'm not planning on watching.

[Fyraltari]

The reason it's relevant to this thread is because the lead is also wearing Mandalorian armour, so the action problems are likely to continue.

But Boba's armour doesn't seem to made entirely out of beskar like Din's is. It's even noticeably damaged (that impact on the helmet).

[ecarden]

I had assumed they took the beskar armour and left all the regular non-invicible armour parts behind. Are you sure any of what Mando found there was Beskar?

I thought so. Wasn't that why the Armorer remained behind? To collect it all and reforge it? But maybe I overestimated the proportion of their gear that was Beskar? It all looked very much like Beskar and I was under the impression that Mando was fairly junior, hence his lack of jet pack and the minor bullying about him being the one to go up above.

But maybe I misunderstood. Anyway, I'll be watching the show this thread is actually about today and we'll see how it goes.

[Palanan]

So, that was a fun opening chapter. They've managed to retain the classic Star Wars feel while giving us an interesting new slant.


First, we should take a moment to acknowledge the prophetic genius (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BBhNkywMJY) of Patton Oswalt. (Right at 1:30.)

Enjoyed just about everything, from the innards of the Sarlacc to the swanky casino with palm fronds, which had a bit of a Casablanca vibe.

Not sure about the rooftop scene; it felt like Star Wars meets Prince of Persia, but with less parkour skills. That one sequence didn’t quite fit for me, although I did like the general concept of the sand ninjas. Also appreciated that Boba Fett is a long way from invulnerable, which gives us a sense of how tenuous his initial rule may be.

And although they were brutal and cruel, I liked the presentation of the Tuskens as people who understood how to find the bounty of a landscape that most others see as pure desolation. Not quite a fan of the hexapod monster, only because the head looked almost exactly like the Kraken from the 1981 Clash of the Titans. Wondering if that was a deliberate homage to Ray Harryhausen.

And that little punk of a Tusken, taking credit for the kill himself. I’m hoping that somehow he ends up working for Boba like everyone else in Mos Espa.

Very interesting that the Trandoshan used the term "daimyo" to refer to Boba Fett's new position, which was echoed later in the episode. I don't think we've ever heard that term used for Jabba or Bib Fortuna, and it has more of a warlord connotation than mere crimelord. Of course we know its real-world historical usage, but I'm interested to see what it means in the Star Wars context. Regional overlord, maybe? Really looking forward to seeing how that's developed.


Great start, and definitely looking forward to more.

.

[ecarden]

Very good start. No issues at all with character invulnerability, which makes the last page or so of conversation sort of hilarious in hindsight.

There were a few nitpicks that made me go 'huh' but generally very well done and captured a lot of the feel of star wars out on the frontier.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by ecarden
No issues at all with character invulnerability, which makes the last page or so of conversation sort of hilarious in hindsight.

Indeed.


Originally Posted by ecarden
There were a few nitpicks that made me go 'huh' but generally very well done and captured a lot of the feel of star wars out on the frontier.

Exactly this. It’s a promising setup, and they’ve nailed the classic feel while giving every indication they’re going in their own direction.

…I like the fact that we’re getting a glimpse into actual character growth with Boba Fett. His Tusken captivity is giving him a taste of what it feels like to be powerless, and the sense is that this will inform his more nuanced approach to ruling in Jabba’s place.

And I really like that he’s demonstrating he appreciates loyalty in former enemies, and is willing to recognize and reward it without holding a grudge. One of many nice touches here.

[Telwar]

I thought so. Wasn't that why the Armorer remained behind? To collect it all and reforge it? But maybe I overestimated the proportion of their gear that was Beskar? It all looked very much like Beskar and I was under the impression that Mando was fairly junior, hence his lack of jet pack and the minor bullying about him being the one to go up above.

But maybe I misunderstood. Anyway, I'll be watching the show this thread is actually about today and we'll see how it goes.

From what I recall, the only part of Mando's armor that was beskar initially was the helmet. The Armorer, once he brings his camtono full of beskar ingots, mentions that this will sponsor a good many foundlings, in addition to making his nice suit of full beskar.

So therefore, it's likely most of the covert's Mandalorians weren't in full beskar on their own, just the helms. Now, it's still effective armor (still likely more effective than the mass-produced-by-the-lowest-bidder trooper armor), but it's not nigh-invulnerable.

Now, Bo-Katan's armor does block Gideon's blaster shots, but I suspect hers was full beskar to begin with, since IIRC it's an ancestral suit. On the other hand, Bo-Katan also has had a LOT longer to learn that there are gaps and she shouldn't do stupid things like rush a position with a heavy autoblaster, unless she absolutely has to. She can leave that to the young guy who has a lot to prove.

[Tyndmyr]

Knives can penetrate kevlar fabric but do not penetrate military grade body armor. The ordinary plastic hard hat I wear for work has stopped all sorts of things including a hammer an idiot coworker dropped from a roof. In the US, safety glasses are designed to deflect a nail fired by a nail gun.

So a stormtrooper should be able to take a blow on the head from a club, especially when wielded by an Ewok.

Nitpick time! "military grade" isn't really a category as such. Knife protection ratings are separate from ballistic ratings, and either military or civilian armor systems can protect against either or both.

Certainly my ol' issued flak jacket wouldn't have stopped any knife at all, but my civilian ceramic plates absolutely will.

People pick their protection based on what they(or their superiors) think they should have. Yeah....the Stormtroopers did go down pretty easy to Ewoks, but it's not entirely insane. Plenty of resistance movements use primitive/unconventional stuff. There's a pretty cool youtube video goin' around showing a cannon mounted on a truck being used in modern warfare, and that sucker absolutely works.

[ecarden]

Nitpick time! "military grade" isn't really a category as such. Knife protection ratings are separate from ballistic ratings, and either military or civilian armor systems can protect against either or both.

Certainly my ol' issued flak jacket wouldn't have stopped any knife at all, but my civilian ceramic plates absolutely will.

People pick their protection based on what they(or their superiors) think they should have. Yeah....the Stormtroopers did go down pretty easy to Ewoks, but it's not entirely insane. Plenty of resistance movements use primitive/unconventional stuff. There's a pretty cool youtube video goin' around showing a cannon mounted on a truck being used in modern warfare, and that sucker absolutely works.

A broader issue is that Storm Trooper armor doesn't seem to work against...anything? I think there's some supplemental materials which suggest it works against slugthrowers, but I don't think we've ever even seen one of those in star wars (or am I confusing their armor with Imperial Guard armor in Warhammer 40k)? If it weren't for Ewoks, I'd think they were good against melee weapons, hence the electro-melee weapons we see in this episode and elsewhere.

But back to the show,
The gear here was also pretty interesting, with electro melee weapons and shield (don't think we've seen those before?) I do admit to wondering about the benefits of the electro-weapons over normal ones? The shields had an advantage in ease of carrying and in not being able to grab them by the enemy, but I didn't see a lot of advantage to electro-spear over spear, except that it meant folks could be hit without being more permanently injured.

There were some very nice touches here. The Gammoreans proving their worth (though where were they when the ninjas appeared?) was very nice, and a good demonstration of why they were kept around by other powers. Them being treated like animals by the upper-class folks was also a good 'this universe actually exists and has its own internal logic/relations' moment.

I really liked Fennec vs. the ninjas on the rooftop, though I wasn't sure how she got ahead of them, but she does know this area, having worked for Jabba and co. But to me the best part was the 'Boba wanted one alive, I've got two survivors, no need to risk bringing back both and I can send a message, kick guy number 2 off the roof,' which just conveys so much about her character and that these aren't the good guys in one moment. I would have liked a quick check to make sure he was dead, but we cut away, so I'll just assume that happened.

Power bases...seem to be quite a few of them, which makes sense, especially as Bib probably wasn't as powerful as Jabba, leading to a long fracturing into different powerbases. I do wonder if the mayor is just another crime lord, or something else. I doubted the Twi'lek woman running the gambling den was truly surprised Boba took over and was wondering if her people put bugs or something in their helmets while they were being cleaned.

As for who sent the assassins? I like that it could be anyone and hope the assassin they caught doesn't know.

Good to get a bit of attention for the Tuskens, I do hope we'll learn a bit more about them without losing the ruthless raider aspect of their character. Given how they're handling Fennec, I have high hopes for some complexity without losing the edge.

ETA: I actually wonder if the intent of the assassination attempt wasn't assassination, but was a warning/threat/beating? That might explain the weapon choice.

ETA: Forgot the brief discussion about Trandoshan's sounding threatening naturally and that expression 'may you never leave Mos Espa' suggests interesting things about their culture without rushing to explain. Made the universe feel bigger rather than smaller.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by ecarden
The gear here was also pretty interesting, with electro melee weapons and shield (don't think we've seen those before?)

The Gungans carried full-size energy shields during the battle in Phantom Menace.

Also, some of the Mandalorians had little energy-bucklers in the Clone Wars, during the arc which saw the introduction of Bo-Katan.

[The Glyphstone]

Electro weapons also have a benefit in that, presumably, they can injure someone on a glancing blow where a normal spear or some has to hit firmly.

[ecarden]

The Gungans carried full-size energy shields during the battle in Phantom Menace.

Also, some of the Mandalorians had little energy-bucklers in the Clone Wars, during the arc which saw the introduction of Bo-Katan.

Ah, that's a good point, I'd forgotten that, though I think those had full frames around them, which removes the advantage of ease of carry, but you're right we've seen related tech a lot.


Electro weapons also have a benefit in that, presumably, they can injure someone on a glancing blow where a normal spear or some has to hit firmly.

That's fair, though I'd think you could also have a point in there so if you can hit square you can also stab.

[Peelee]

Electro weapons are also harder to grab away (Fett does, but it is clearly incredibly difficult for him to do this). It also gave me the impression they wanted to take Fett alive, but I'm not sure how accurate I am on that.

[runeghost]

Very good start. No issues at all with character invulnerability, which makes the last page or so of conversation sort of hilarious in hindsight.


My six year-old niece (who is aware StarWars is a thing, but its not her thing), walking into the room where adults are watching it after dinner, during Boba Fett's captivity:

"Why are they beating up that old man?"

[Mechalich]

Electro weapons are also harder to grab away (Fett does, but it is clearly incredibly difficult for him to do this). It also gave me the impression they wanted to take Fett alive, but I'm not sure how accurate I am on that.

It sure looked like they were trying to take him alive. Which makes sense, really. if nothing else, there's almost certainly at least one (probably several) bounties on his head, and those are usually worth more if the target is bagged alive.

[Peelee]

So I've come to the sad realization that the entire first three minutes were a complete waste. They could have accomplished the exact same thing by going to what the movies have already established:

Opening text: "Somehow, Boba Fett returned."

[runeghost]

So I've come to the sad realization that the entire first three minutes were a complete waste. They could have accomplished the exact same thing by going to what the movies have already established:

Opening text: "Somehow, Boba Fett returned."


Ouch. It's not nice to kick J.J. Abrams like that, even if he absolutely has it coming.

(I'm not saying it's wrong, mind. Just that it's not nice. :smallbiggrin:)

[Dienekes]

Enjoyed the first episode.

If the writers find a way to differentiate and give personality to the two Gamorreans I will be very impressed.

[Taevyr]

Ouch. It's not nice to kick J.J. Abrams like that, even if he absolutely has it coming.

(I'm not saying it's wrong, mind. Just that it's not nice. :smallbiggrin:)

I dunno, it's at least a bit more effort than "he somehow escaped", though they were certainly banking on the "whatever ludicrous solution we might come up with, watchers that are invested that much'll certainly headcanon a more believable escape for themselves if we give'em a partial blank."

Essentially, they're saying: "Fett was alive, had at least partially working armor/armaments, and the capacity to scavenge some of the other corpses. How exactly he made use of that is left as an exercise for the watcher".


Still, good beginning, and a nice balance on both the in medias res modern timeline, as on establishing the mystery of how he lived to reach it. I think I'll enjoy the series.

EDIT: btw, anyone have an idea what that creature was? I think it might be a gundark, which'd be a nice use of the sw bestiary, but I'm not the star wars lore-addict I once was .

[Peelee]

I dunno, it's at least a bit more effort than "he somehow escaped", though they were certainly banking on the "whatever ludicrous solution we might come up with, watchers that are invested that much'll certainly headcanon a more believable escape for themselves if we give'em a partial blank."

Essentially, they're saying: "Fett was alive, had at least partially working armor/armaments, and the capacity to scavenge some of the other corpses. How exactly he made use of that is left as an exercise for the watcher".

Oh, I'm not mocking the show. I'm mocking Abrams.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Taevyr
EDIT: btw, anyone have an idea what that creature was? I think it might be a gundark, which'd be a nice use of the sw bestiary, but I'm not the star wars lore-addict I once was .

No idea what it was, but pretty sure it wasn't a gundark. Those showed up in the Clone Wars (possibly Rebels as well?) and looked entirely different.

[Mordar]

I enjoyed the Mandalorian but did not love it. My favorite characters with Fennec and the farmer. I was glad to see BoBF featuring Fennec was happening, but not super excited.

My spoiler-free opinion of E1: Clunky. Handwavey. Glad Fennec is in it and appears likely to get a lot of screen time. Will watch more because it is a sunk cost and I am a completionist, but hope it improves. Wonder if it is going to be like The Shootist.

On the previous conversation: Many shows fall "victim" to situational competency. The IG sacrifice scene for instance...Mando/IG walked into the ambush in the compound and managed it like it was nothing...so the sacrifice during the escape seemed contrived because the expectation of danger was lessened based on their bold entry to the compound. I would really like it if shows that I (otherwise) like would back off from evidencing the leads badda$$ery by having them take out 30 mooks and instead, for instance, show them taking down 12 mooks sprinkled throughout the compound when attacking with stealth and a plan. That makes a sacrifice scene when there are a dozen troopers together and ready for you much more meaningful.

Offscreen action doesn't create a perception of competence for me...so the troopers taking out the entire cell/group/Iforgettherightterm off screen feels very handwavy, not impressive or tension-building. So, in short, my preference is: Believable heroes that can handle a couple/three adversaries on most any terms, but not much more than that. They can handle 10-15-20 on a battlefield of their choosing, or when they have the situational advantage. And if you want me to believe your power dynamic, show it to me first hand and give me a reason to believe.

And even if you don't do any of that stuff, if it looks cool or is done in a fun (for me) way I'll still enjoy it.

- M

[Fyraltari]

Just watched the first episode. Overall I liked it.


How did a stormtrooper get inside the Sarlaac? And what was that tube that Boba used from his corpse?

Love the fact that they bothered to make the various tuskens visually distinct. They have never looked so cool. I foresee future cosplays.

The watchdog and the sand-monster, however, did not look real at all.

I really like the feel they're giving to Mos Espa and the various people there. I hope we see more of the club(?) owner.

That fight scene was very cool.

So, those Gamorreans refused to join Boba when he took over but now they agree because he offers to spare them? Isn't that the same offer he made to everyone who worked for Fortuna?

Why was a child tasked with supervising the two prisoners?

I am guessing the people who raided the farm and tagged it will turn up again later. Probably in cahoots with the mayor or the assassins. Assuming the assassins weren't hired by the mayor.

I think this was the first time in Star Wars that we've seen JAwas just straight up abandon a dude to the desert. I wonder if they were angry with him.

Are the water "fruits" a reference to Dune's sand trouts trapping water? Because it's cool if it is.

Didn't banthas use to be bigger?

[Palanan]

Comments on a few of your thoughts and questions:



Originally Posted by Fyraltari
How did a stormtrooper get inside the Sarlaac?

Don’t know, but I’m sure he’ll get an action figure and a spinoff series.


Originally Posted by Fyraltari
Why was a child tasked with supervising the two prisoners?

I have a feeling that’s just how low prisoners rate. Kind of the same way real-world human kids will look after a few goats in traditional cultures.


Originally Posted by Fyraltari
I think this was the first time in Star Wars that we've seen JAwas just straight up abandon a dude to the desert.

That stood out to me too, but I can’t think of an instance when Jawas actually saved anyone.

I don’t recall the exact details of the scene from Mandalorian, but I seem to recall those Jawas leaving Mando in their wake as well. I think their stripping Boba Fett just clarified a vicious streak that’s always been implicit.


Originally Posted by Fyraltari
Are the water "fruits" a reference to Dune's sand trouts trapping water? Because it's cool if it is.

No idea, but I noticed faint color variations that gave me a pentaradial vibe, which reminded me of sea biscuits, although without the spines.

Definitely one of the coolest touches in the episode. I wouldn’t be surprised if they’re specialized organs that store water for a much larger organism, perhaps akin to a mycelium that’s spread diffusely through acres of sand. The Tuskens either have individual patches staked out, or they can spot subtle hints that other species would never notice.


Originally Posted by Fyraltari
Didn't banthas use to be bigger?

Dwarf banthas are apparently canonical, at least for Wookiepedia, so I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a whole spectrum of sizes. There are probably many different breeds of bantha, maybe corresponding to different cultural groups of Tuskens.

[Wayac]

In the Mandalorian we learn that Cobb Vanth got Boba Fett's armor after he stole some crystals, wandered in the desert for days before collapsing, then was found by Jawas who traded him the armor in exchange for the crystals. The same armor that came from a man who wandered in the desert for days before collapsing, then was found by Jawas and robbed point blank.

Am I misremembering? Is it somehow a different tribe of Jawas and they traded the armor around?

Overall I'm interested in seeing what they do with the show. If they give us some Fennec flashbacks that'd be pretty sweet.

[Fyraltari]

I have a feeling that’s just how low prisoners rate. Kind of the same way real-world human kids will look after a few goats in traditional cultures.
Boba had beaten the dog, used its teeth to escape and given one of their warriors a run for his money. That's just asking for the kid to get murdered.



I don’t recall the exact details of the scene from Mandalorian, but I seem to recall those Jawas leaving Mando in their wake as well. I think their stripping Boba Fett just clarified a vicious streak that’s always been implicit.
Nah, Mando had opened fire on them and was trying to attack their sandcrawler. When he came back later, they were willing to negotiate (despite him having killed a couple of their numbers.)



In the Mandalorian we learn that Cobb Vanth got Boba Fett's armor after he stole some crystals, wandered in the desert for days before collapsing, then was found by Jawas who traded him the armor in exchange for the crystals. The same armor that came from a man who wandered in the desert for days before collapsing, then was found by Jawas and robbed point blank.

Am I misremembering? Is it somehow a different tribe of Jawas and they traded the armor around?

Cobb Vanth was just a dude. Fett was the top enforcer of the ruthless crime-lord of Tattooine. Maybe they figured he was getting what was coming to him.

[Telwar]

In the Mandalorian we learn that Cobb Vanth got Boba Fett's armor after he stole some crystals, wandered in the desert for days before collapsing, then was found by Jawas who traded him the armor in exchange for the crystals. The same armor that came from a man who wandered in the desert for days before collapsing, then was found by Jawas and robbed point blank.

Am I misremembering? Is it somehow a different tribe of Jawas and they traded the armor around?

Overall I'm interested in seeing what they do with the show. If they give us some Fennec flashbacks that'd be pretty sweet.

On the one hand, Jawas are aliens, and weird, but we know they have, ahem, loose regard for property. Maybe they thought Fett was dead and were engaging in corpse-stripping, and when he stirred they just kept on going since they'd already started. Or possibly they had an attack of conscience with Vanth, or he wasn't so far out that they couldn't bring themselves to make him into a corpse before stripping it. Hell, Vanth is more of an outlier case than Fett's, which feels more like what they'd normally do.

I did like this. It didn't have the awesome hook of Baby Yoda, but was reasonably solid.

Though I'm not sure if Fett is a mouth-breather or just so disciplined he doesn't breathe through his nose in the bacta pod.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Fyraltari
That's just asking for the kid to get murdered.

Or they’re giving the kid a known danger and expecting him to Tusken up and handle it.


Originally Posted by Fyraltari
Nah, Mando had opened fire on them and was trying to attack their sandcrawler. When he came back later, they were willing to negotiate (despite him having killed a couple of their numbers.)

Mando vaporizes three, no questions asked, and throws two more off the crawler on his way up. In return the jawas do their best to kill him in a variety of ways, including crushing him against a rock outcrop and hitting him with everything they’ve got—after which they let him fall from the top of the crawler and leave him for dead.

The jawas in Fett’s case seem to be of the same mind. Either there are certain subspecies which are inherently more aggressive, or Fett and Mando ran across a couple of especially mean-spirited jawa clans.

Or, as I suggested earlier, jawas in general have a mean streak, and we’re starting to see that in action.


Originally Posted by Telwar
Hell, Vanth is more of an outlier case than Fett's, which feels more like what they'd normally do.

This seems about right. On Tatooine, jawas are coexisting with humans and Tuskens, so no love lost among any of them.

[Fyraltari]

Mando vaporizes three, no questions asked, and throws two more off the crawler on his way up. In return the jawas do their best to kill him in a variety of ways, including crushing him against a rock outcrop and hitting him with everything they’ve got—after which they let him fall from the top of the crawler and leave him for dead.

The jawas in Fett’s case seem to be of the same mind. Either there are certain subspecies which are inherently more aggressive, or Fett and Mando ran across a couple of especially mean-spirited jawa clans.

Or, as I suggested earlier, jawas in general have a mean streak, and we’re starting to see that in action.
Again, the Jawas defended themselves against Mando and then were still willing to deal with him after he'd murdered a handful of them. I don't see how you got a mean streak out of that.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Fyraltari
…and then were still willing to deal with him after he'd murdered a handful of them.

For jawas, that’s Tuesday. The jawas trade to survive, so striking a deal with him isn’t forgiveness or a sudden upwelling of goodwill on their part. It’s what they do. They tried to kill him, and then when he came back they played their hand and used him to get what they want.

As for the mean streak, just listen to them when he’s climbing up the crawler—there’s some seriously maniacal laughter when they try to smear him across the outcrop. They’re enjoying it. Joker could take notes on that laughter.

[Cikomyr2]

The second episode was brilliant

[ecarden]

I tend to agree. There were a few things worrying me, but they all played out well.

The assassin was tricked into talking, but lied rather than speak the truth. Excellent! Points for not being an idiot.

The mayor appears to actually be an independent power and is trying to walk a narrow path between Hutts and Boba and is intriguingly morally ambiguous and not human.

The Tusken memories are impressive and though Boba is very helpful to them, it's with knowledge that he has every reason to have and he doesn't instantly become the best with their weapons, AND his plan requires alteration by the Tuskens to actually work. The only bad note was him having to tell someone how to signal, which the Tusken's definitely should have cracked independently, but that was a child, so it may just be him explaining it to the kid.

There were a lot of nice little touches here, especially the assassin's and Fennec's reactions to Boba's little speech about mercy, given she kicked his fellow assassin off the roof.

I look forward to learning more about the Hutts.

[Peelee]

I tend to agree. There were a few things worrying me, but they all played out well.

The assassin was tricked into talking, but lied rather than speak the truth. Excellent! Points for not being an idiot.

Did he, though? The mayor never actually denied it. Instead, he had the assassin killed immediately and threw suspicion on someone else. This is the same person who (through his majordomo) refuses to pay any tribute to Fett, demands tribute from Fett, and then tells Fett to expect another "delegation".

I'm not sold that it wasn't him. He's a major player on Tatooine, I'm not about to assume that he's above the machinations of the powerful elite on this brutal world.

[Palanan]

Absolutely loved it. Hit my Star Wars happy place.

Really well-done episode, with an excellent mix of action, world-building, character depth and politics.



At this point I’m enjoying the captivity narrative more than the present-day storyline. The development of the Tusken culture is excellent, and Fett’s shown that he can fit into that culture perfectly. Rule with respect, indeed.

Also enjoyed the appearance of the Pikes. Is this the first time we’ve seen them without their faceplates? I’ve also spotted a couple other species that were in Clone Wars, and this seems to be their first live-action appearance as well.

That is the meanest-looking Wookiee I’ve ever seen. They nailed the surly menace with this guy.

Apparently he’s a pre-existing character, but I have no idea where he’s from. Looking forward to seeing more of him.

Two fan details of note. First, the couple in the small bar where the Weequays were drinking were, according to the credits, none other than Cami and Fixer, who were in some deleted scenes from the very first Star Wars and made it into the novelization. I always thought Cami was a blonde, but even so it’s a nice touch.

Also, the shelter where the Tuskens teach Fett to make his gaffi stick is based on some early concept art by Ralph McQuarrie. Really nice homage there.

I’m thinking the mayor is more dangerous than the Hutts. Morally ambiguous nothin’—he’s not where he is by having morals of any kind.

I would be highly suspicious of any "tribute" he does offer, not to mention everything he says. He clearly had an arrangement with Bib Fortuna that allowed him a great deal of power, and I wouldn't be surprised if he had that arrangement with Jabba as well. He won't surrender that power lightly.

[Peelee]

That is the meanest-looking Wookiee I’ve ever seen. They nailed the surly menace with this guy.

Apparently he’s a pre-existing character, but I have no idea where he’s from. Looking forward to seeing more of him.

Black K. So far only seen in the comics. He's a top tier bounty hunter, along the best of the best. Not to be trifled with.
My wife said I let out little gasp when he can't on screen.

[ecarden]

Did he, though? The mayor never actually denied it. Instead, he had the assassin killed immediately and threw suspicion on someone else. This is the same person who (through his majordomo) refuses to pay any tribute to Fett, demands tribute from Fett, and then tells Fett to expect another "delegation".

I'm not sold that it wasn't him. He's a major player on Tatooine, I'm not about to assume that he's above the machinations of the powerful elite on this brutal world.


I’m thinking the mayor is more dangerous than the Hutts. Morally ambiguous nothin’—he’s not where he is by having morals of any kind.

I would be highly suspicious of any "tribute" he does offer, not to mention everything he says. He clearly had an arrangement with Bib Fortuna that allowed him a great deal of power, and I wouldn't be surprised if he had that arrangement with Jabba as well. He won't surrender that power lightly.

I may be jumping to conclusions the combination of 'the assassins are only allowed to operate within Hutt space, plus pointing him directly at the Hutts said to me that he was playing it relatively straight on this. I mean, it's possible it was a double bluff, but you've got an assassin apparently from Hutt space pointing Boba at someone who is (at least apparently) an enemy of the Hutts...why would that be true? For that matter, why wouldn't the assassin lie? He's got every motive in the world and had a LONG time to think one up.

On the question of morality, the mayor's definitely not going to submit easily to Boba, but that doesn't make him evil. Boba is a crime lord. We know absolutely nothing about how one becomes mayor, except that Boba seems to think it means something other than just being another strongman, as his reaction to the rejection of the initial demand for tribute shows.

Definitely an antagonist at the moment, but in my mind, not a villain yet.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by ecarden
On the question of morality, the mayor's definitely not going to submit easily to Boba, but that doesn't make him evil.

…Definitely an antagonist at the moment, but in my mind, not a villain yet.

The mayor has the assassin shot without any actual evidence of wrongdoing, nor any other hint of due process.

This is what tyrants and crimelords do. Looks like a villain to me.

[Peelee]

I may be jumping to conclusions the combination of 'the assassins are only allowed to operate within Hutt space, plus pointing him directly at the Hutts said to me that he was playing it relatively straight on this. I mean, it's possible it was a double bluff, but you've got an assassin apparently from Hutt space pointing Boba at someone who is (at least apparently) an enemy of the Hutts...why would that be true? For that matter, why wouldn't the assassin lie? He's got every motive in the world and had a LONG time to think one up.

On the question of morality, the mayor's definitely not going to submit easily to Boba, but that doesn't make him evil. Boba is a crime lord. We know absolutely nothing about how one becomes mayor, except that Boba seems to think it means something other than just being another strongman, as his reaction to the rejection of the initial demand for tribute shows.

Definitely an antagonist at the moment, but in my mind, not a villain yet.
Problems with your analysis:
A.) What double bluff? Only needs a single bluff. "Look at these other people instead of me". Easy peasy.

2.) He didn't point Fett at the Hutts. He pointed Fett at Garsa Fwip.

Facts we know:

The Mayor paid no tribute to Fett.
The Mayor demanded tribute from Fett.
Fett refused to pay.
The Mayor threatened Fett.
Assassins attacked directly following this.
The surviving assassin said it was ordered by the Mayor.
The Mayor immediately had the assassin killed.
The Mayor never denied sending the assassins.

You'll forgive me if I don't immediately trust the Ithorian.

[ecarden]

The mayor has the assassin shot without any actual evidence of wrongdoing, nor any other hint of due process.

This is what tyrants and crimelords do. Looks like a villain to me.

We have no idea how the justice system on Tattoine works, but what he says is that the order cannot operate outside Hutt space. The man is wearing a very identifiable uniform and he now has multiple eyewitnesses claiming he attempted to carry out an assassination. Again, morally ambiguous and had an assassin executed on the spot are entirely consistent for me.

Problems with the problems in my analysis:


A.) What double bluff? Only needs a single bluff. "Look at these other people instead of me". Easy peasy.
To be clear, the double bluff would be that the assassin was supposed to reveal his identity (and using an assassin tied to the Hutts rather than someone more local). This isn't required, but was my interpretation based on the 'he'll never talk--at the first serious threat he talks' sequence. More generally, this ignores the fact that the assassin has absolutely no reason to tell the truth and every reason to lie.

2.) He didn't point Fett at the Hutts. He pointed Fett at Garsa Fwip.
No. He pointed him to 'Garsa's Sanctuary' the location, not the person, which was fairly obviously where the Twins were going. The point wasn't to accuse her, but to point their return to him
Facts we know:

The Mayor paid no tribute to Fett.
Correct
The Mayor demanded tribute from Fett.
Correct
Fett refused to pay.
Correct.
The Mayor threatened Fett.
His Major Domo did.
Assassins attacked directly following this.
Well, time isn't exactly clear on any of this, which is one of the better things about the series, but indeed, narratively it's set up to suggest the mayor's responsibility.
The surviving assassin said it was ordered by the Mayor.
Indeed. And it's totally possible he'll prove to have been telling the truth. I'll think that's stupid, given their reputation and the amount of time he had to think of a lie.
The Mayor immediately had the assassin killed.
Indeed. Totally unlike our protagonists...except, uh...not. But the more interesting thing is the claim made as justification, that they aren't allowed to operate outside Hutt Space, which suggests that the mayor is opposed to Tattoine being considered Hutt Space. Again, could be a bluff or cover for sending the assassins, but it suggested more to me, which is one of the things I'm liking so far. The show doesn't feel the need to give definitive answers.
The Mayor never denied sending the assassins.
No, but his Major Domo did and he expressly said 'who really sent the Night Wind?' Of course, even if he had expressly denied it...that wouldn't prove anything?

You'll forgive me if I don't immediately trust the Ithorian.

Of course not. Trusting a morally ambiguous character would be deeply foolish.

[Peelee]

We have no idea how the justice system on Tattoine works, but what he says is that the order cannot operate outside Hutt space. The man is wearing a very identifiable uniform and he now has multiple eyewitnesses claiming he attempted to carry out an assassination. Again, morally ambiguous and had an assassin executed on the spot are entirely consistent for me.

Problems with the problems in my analysis:
One would presume they would hand such a lawbreakers over to the Hutts, or at least imprison and try to extract information (such as who sent them). Instead, the mayor has him killed immediately. That's damned suspicious.
It's difficult to reply when you nest your replies in my quote blocks, because formatting doesn't carry that over.
The twins weren't heading for her place specifically - they were seeking out Boba Fett. They went there because he was there. Their only business is confronting him, and when that is finished, they leave.

Not to mention, why does the assassin have no reason to tell the truth? His only desire is to not be eaten. Truth or lie is irrelevant here.

[ecarden]

One would presume they would hand such a lawbreakers over to the Hutts, or at least imprison and try to extract information (such as who sent them). Instead, the mayor has him killed immediately. That's damned suspicious.

He expressly states the assassins can't operate outside Hutt Space. He is claiming that this is not Hutt Space, so of course he wouldn't turn them over to the Hutts. He seems to be claiming that he has the authority to enforce the law, as the Mayor, though that could be interpreted differently (ie, he asserts that since Boba claims to be in charge, the Hutts can't be, so this isn't Hutt space, so the assassins can't be there...) I mean, killing the guy is definitely suspicious. It could be to cover up his involvement, or it could be to demonstrate his power and ruthlessness and warn Boba off against attempting to solve this with blasters.


The twins weren't heading for her place specifically - they were seeking out Boba Fett. They went there because he was there. Their only business is confronting him, and when that is finished, they leave.

Not to mention, why does the assassin have no reason to tell the truth? His only desire is to not be eaten. Truth or lie is irrelevant here.

The mayor sends him to that location. Everyone is nervous there, Boba asks why, she references the Twins and they arrive moments later on a very slow litter. My read is very definitely that they were heading for that location. Now, this isn't certain, but makes the most sense to me.

On the assassin...he's motivated to lie because he hopes to survive and move forward and having it be publicly known that he betrayed his employer is incredibly counterproductive? Also, a bunch of his allies were just killed by them, why would he want to help them out? If I'm him, my goal is to delay and lie until I can find a moment to escape. Motives for lying: Professional reputation, revenge on the person who killed your allies/friends, buy time to escape. Motives for telling the truth: hope that the crimelord will be so grateful he'll let you go (after you betrayed your previous employer and his lieutenant murdered your ally in cold blood), buy time to escape, revenge on the employer who sent you after this target. So, there are motives to go the other way if you want, but I really prefer the model where he's lying (or doesn't know and is making something up, personally I'd think part of the benefit of hiring an order of assassins rather than an individual would be that the ones actually sent don't know who sent them, so can't give up any information).

[Cikomyr2]

I tend to agree. There were a few things worrying me, but they all played out well.

The assassin was tricked into talking, but lied rather than speak the truth. Excellent! Points for not being an idiot.

I did not catch that. Verry smart indeed.


The mayor appears to actually be an independent power and is trying to walk a narrow path between Hutts and Boba and is intriguingly morally ambiguous and not human.

I think there is a lot more in balance for the Mayor. Maybe he was using Fortuna as a front to keep a nominal bribe to the Hutts without them intervening, but when Boba Fett arrived and claimed the hold, he's the one who called the Hutts. His plan is obviously that one destroys the other; and in either case he comes out ahead.



I look forward to learning more about the Hutts.

Screw the Hutts. I wanna see more of the Evil Wookie.

[KorvinStarmast]

Nothing is indicative of Mandalorians as a whole, because they're composed of a bunch of different sects constantly in conflict over what being a mandalorian actually is. And they doubtless refer to one another as Splitters. :smallsmile:

The ingots with Imperial symbols that Mando was paid in, come from the fact that the Empire did at some point melt down Mando armour and turn it into ingots, after they'd killed them. That's the impression that I got.

May wait for the series to be complete and then drop a dime on Disney+ to binge watch it, and then cancel. Will discuss how to finesse that with my son who I think still has a disney+ sub ...

[Peelee]

He expressly states the assassins can't operate outside Hutt Space. He is claiming that this is not Hutt Space, so of course he wouldn't turn them over to the Hutts.
What? Why in the world not? Theres only one reason why he couldn't turn them over to the Hutts, and that would be if he sent them himself. That does not mean he is obligated to turn the assassin over, but it does mean that killing the assassin is significantly suspicious, as it's the single most self-serving action he could take if he did indeed do it.

The mayor sends him to that location. Everyone is nervous there, Boba asks why, she references the Twins and they arrive moments later on a very slow litter. My read is very definitely that they were heading for that location. Now, this isn't certain, but makes the most sense to me.
Everyone is on edge because they know the Hutts are on world and they will obviously confront Fett, and suddenly that is seemingly going to happen right where they are.

Note how the Hutts never say anything that's not directly related to their issue with Fett. When the conversation is done, they don't say "now step aside, we would like to go in." They leave because hey are done entirely - their sole interest is dealing with Fett.

On the assassin...he's motivated to lie because he hopes to survive and move forward and having it be publicly known that he betrayed his employer is incredibly counterproductive?]
He is ready to die already, without talking at all. He simply didn't want to get eaten alive. That's not planning out how to lie, that's panic. And even if it was a lie, how would that help him survive long-term? Either Fett or the Hutts would kill him if his employer didn't (assuming his employer isn't the Hutts - if it was, they would kill him anyway, obviously). Your theory just doesn't hold water.

Further, neither Boba Fett nor Fennec Shand believe he is lying despite them being significantly more well versed in both the Star Wars universe and also the SW underworld. Fett even tells the mayor to not think Fett is a fool when the mayor gives his (very weak) rebuttals. That you seem to discard all of this and decide that both lead characters are apparently fools and that the person who was named, who is also the only known party to have delivered a threat to Fett up to this point, who immediately eliminated the only remaining witness who could say who ordered the attack, did not do it because he didn't just own up to it? Well... it's not a belief that I can share. I'm not convinced that the Mayor did call the hit, but if we had to place bets right now,
my money would definitely be on him.

Wookie.
Wookiee. 2 E's.

The ingots with Imperial symbols that Mando was paid in, come from the fact that the Empire did at some point melt down Mando armour and turn it into ingots, after they'd killed them.

My impression was that this was beskar that was mined and smelted by the Empire after decimating the Mandalorians, nit just taking armor and re-melting them into ingots.

[Keltest]

Is there some reason you cant both be right?

The mayor is obviously not acting with Boba's best interests in mind, or even particularly interested in the two of them mutually avoiding each other, but that doesnt mean that every bad thing that happens to or around Boba is his fault. Heck, its in his own interests to get Boba to consider the Hutts to be a bigger and more immediate threat than himself, but he doesnt want Boba actually winning that fight handily. Giving Boba just enough information to find trouble sooner works plenty well on all his possible objectives there, and has fewer ways of going wrong in the event that, say, Boba does win, as he can just say he was earnestly helping Boba.

ETA: Spoiled out of politeness and consistency.

[Peelee]

Is there some reason you cant both be right?

Well, it basically comes down to "the assassin is/is not lying", which is pretty binary.

[ecarden]

What? Why in the world not? Theres only one reason why he couldn't turn them over to the Hutts, and that would be if he sent them himself. That does not mean he is obligated to turn the assassin over, but it does mean that killing the assassin is significantly suspicious, as it's the single most self-serving action he could take if he did indeed do it.

I didn't say he couldn't turn them over. I said he wouldn't, because he was claiming that the assassin was in violation of some sort of rule limiting their presence to Hutt space. Now, he could have taken the prisoner and handed him over to the Hutts, but that would have been choosing a side and my read is that he was trying not to choose a side.

I mean, it's (ETA: killing the assassin) an action he could take whether he sent them or not. Let me ask a different question. Assume I'm right and the man lied. What do you want the Mayor to do to demonstrate innocence, which doesn't require him to submit to Boba, which he doesn't want to do?


Everyone is on edge because they know the Hutts are on world and they will obviously confront Fett, and suddenly that is seemingly going to happen right where they are.

Note how the Hutts never say anything that's not directly related to their issue with Fett. When the conversation is done, they don't say "now step aside, we would like to go in." They leave because hey are done entirely - their sole interest is dealing with Fett.

That's certainly one interpretation. The other is they were there on other business (as not everyone in the city is that nervous, or at least Boba and Fennec don't mention/comment on it anywhere else) and when they decided not to start a brawl went off to conclude their business later. I don't see a way to determine which is correct based on the material in the episode.


He is ready to die already, without talking at all. He simply didn't want to get eaten alive. That's not planning out how to lie, that's panic. And even if it was a lie, how would that help him survive long-term? Either Fett or the Hutts would kill him if his employer didn't (assuming his employer isn't the Hutts - if it was, they would kill him anyway, obviously). Your theory just doesn't hold water.

Further, neither Boba Fett nor Fennec Shand believe he is lying despite them being significantly more well versed in both the Star Wars universe and also the SW underworld. Fett even tells the mayor to not think Fett is a fool when the mayor gives his (very weak) rebuttals. That you seem to discard all of this and decide that both lead characters are apparently fools and that the person who was named, who is also the only known party to have delivered a threat to Fett up to this point, who immediately eliminated the only remaining witness who could say who ordered the attack, did not do it because he didn't just own up to it? Well... it's not a belief that I can share. I'm not convinced that the Mayor did call the hit, but if we had to place bets right now,
my money would definitely be on him..

I disagree. I didn't say and don't think he thought of the lie on the spot as he was worried about the Rancor (though it's certainly possible. People think up lies under torture, especially when they don't know the information the other person wants) but rather on the very long walk back to their base and through the city. But to go back a step, assume I'm right. He was hired by the Hutts (or someone else, besides the Mayor) and he lies. It works as he hopes it does, Boba kills the Mayor and releases him, or he escapes in the firefight. Now, to clean up his mess, he probably still has to kill Boba, but why would the Hutts care to seek revenge? His order might, for damaging their reputation, but we're reading an awful lot into one scene.

I agree that we don't know what the answer here is, but I disagree that my theory holds no water.

I don't think we know what Fennec and Boba think. We know what they said to the Mayor who is definitely a rival to them. You'll note that having gone there and had their prisoner shot in the head, they don't continue to claim he's guilty and they don't start a fight, even before the Mayor's sent them off to learn about the twins, their plan is to take the money and leave, which suggests to me that they don't know whether or not the Mayor was behind it. If they wanted to assassinate the Mayor as payback because they were certain he was responsible, then Boba would have said to Fennec (famously an assassin) 'go kill him' and that problem would have been solved.

I am not committed to the Mayor's innocence, but I will say I really like the idea of it being a lie, both because it undermines a trope I find distasteful 'torture gets you good information and, in my view, makes the dead assassin character much more interesting than 'stuffed shirt who folds when things leave his comfort zone.'

ETA:


Is there some reason you cant both be right?

The mayor is obviously not acting with Boba's best interests in mind, or even particularly interested in the two of them mutually avoiding each other, but that doesnt mean that every bad thing that happens to or around Boba is his fault. Heck, its in his own interests to get Boba to consider the Hutts to be a bigger and more immediate threat than himself, but he doesnt want Boba actually winning that fight handily. Giving Boba just enough information to find trouble sooner works plenty well on all his possible objectives there, and has fewer ways of going wrong in the event that, say, Boba does win, as he can just say he was earnestly helping Boba.

ETA: Spoiled out of politeness and consistency.

I think we're in agreement that the Mayor is an antagonist to Boba at the moment. But the question at issue, did he send the assassins, is probably a yes-or-no situation. I mean, you can come up with a scenario where the Major Domo sends them without telling him, but it would be pretty baroque.

[Peelee]

I didn't say he couldn't turn them over. I said he wouldn't, because he was claiming that the assassin was in violation of some sort of rule limiting their presence to Hutt space. Now, he could have taken the prisoner and handed him over to the Hutts, but that would have been choosing a side and my read is that he was trying not to choose a side.

I mean, it's (ETA: killing the assassin) an action he could take whether he sent them or not. Let me ask a different question. Assume I'm right and the man lied. What do you want the Mayor to do to demonstrate innocence, which doesn't require him to submit to Boba, which he doesn't want to do?
The mayor can do one thing to demonstrate innocence: not immediately kill the assassin! Because despite what you claim, that is taking sides. That's treating Fett as a bounty hunter, not a ruler in his own right (which Fett openly states, so that should be hard to miss). It takes away Fett's captive, the only person who can name the party that ordered the attack (and outside of Hutt space to boot!), silencing him permanently. Hutts control Hutt space, so if something is not allowed outside their space, that's a Hutt issue and as such, bringing it to the Hutts is the action that actually isn't taking sides.

That's certainly one interpretation. The other is they were there on other business (as not everyone in the city is that nervous, or at least Boba and Fennec don't mention/comment on it anywhere else) and when they decided not to start a brawl went off to conclude their business later. I don't see a way to determine which is correct based on the material in the episode.

Theres a huge problem with that though. Let's assume you are correct. The Hutts now look weak. They had business, Fett interrupted, and they turned tail and ran. It doesn't even matter if that's the actual reason they left, it looks like that's why they left (and is probably the actual reason they left anyway).

The only way they come off without looking like they're cowtowing to Fett right off the bat is if they came specifically looking for him and left once they concluded their chat.

[ecarden]

We're talking circles at this point, so I'm going to disengage. Have a nice day.

[Keltest]

The mayor can do one thing to demonstrate innocence: not immediately kill the assassin! Because despite what you claim, that is taking sides. That's treating Fett as a bounty hunter, not a ruler in his own right (which Fett openly states, so that should be hard to miss). It takes away Fett's captive, the only person who can name the party that ordered the attack (and outside of Hutt space to boot!), silencing him permanently. Hutts control Hutt space, so if something is not allowed outside their space, that's a Hutt issue and as such, bringing it to the Hutts is the action that actually isn't taking sides.
How would that demonstrate his innocence though? We already know the Mayor is not friendly to Boba, so killing him, or not, doesnt tell us anything new.



Theres a huge problem with that though. Let's assume you are correct. The Hutts now look weak. They had business, Fett interrupted, and they turned tail and ran. It doesn't even matter if that's the actual reason they left, it looks like that's why they left (and is probably the actual reason they left anyway).

The only way they come off without looking like they're cowtowing to Fett right off the bat is if they came specifically looking for him and left once they concluded their chat.

The Hutts look weak no matter what there, because Boba basically just threw down the gauntlet and they backed down. I dont think we can ascertain anything about their motives from their not starting a shootout in the street, other than that they werent sure they would win.

[Fyraltari]

Just watched it.
Boba Fett involved in a train heist. That feels familiar somehow...
Thinking back at our little debate(s) about whether Boba is a Mandalorian or not. Maybe he sees himself as a Tusken now? Really strating to wonder if his takeover was less a power-grab and more a way for him to help the Tuskens.

No, Mr. Mayor, that wasn't Jabba's throne, he couldn't sit.

Also, running a family is more complicated than bounty hunting? But that's already a complicated profession!

Fyra watching the Tusken burn their dead: Where do they find the wood?
Fyra watching Boba go out of the vision quest with a broken branch to serves as a warstaff: That just raises further questions!
I joke but that was easily my favourite bit of the episode. All the Tuskens go through this? really deepens them. The artwork shown at the end shows Jawas present when Boba reaches the tree. obviously that was scrapped, but I hope the show explores these two people's relationship somewhat.

Also, the bit about oceans drying, that's from Legends, isn't it? Where did the water even go?

I thought the mean Wookieeeeeeeeee was a reference to Hanharr from KoTOR II, but he's a canon character? Cool. How does he not die of heat is beyond me, though.

The Mayor is awesome, and I really enjoyed the bit with the receptionist, low-hanging fruit as it was.

Those poor, poor people carrying the Hutts around.

EDIT: Also, the Tuskens pilfering weapons from the Pykes made me think of Darth and Droids.



The mayor appears to actually be an independent power and is trying to walk a narrow path between Hutts and Boba and is intriguingly morally ambiguous and not human.
Also, being a snail-man in a position of power on Tatooine is kind of a boast in and of itself.


Two fan details of note. First, the couple in the small bar where the Weequays were drinking were, according to the credits, none other than Cami and Fixer, who were in some deleted scenes from the very first Star Wars and made it into the novelization. I always thought Cami was a blonde, but even so it’s a nice touch.
I wonder how much restraint it took to refrain from having them mention power converters.

He clearly had an arrangement with Bib Fortuna that allowed him a great deal of power, and I wouldn't be surprised if he had that arrangement with Jabba as well. He won't surrender that power lightly.
I think the idea is that Fortuna let Jabba's empire whither away, allowing the Mayor and the underbosses to basically become semi-independent.

Well, it basically comes down to "the assassin is/is not lying", which is pretty binary.
Turns out the assassin thought he was hired by the Mayor, but that was actually Black K. in a cheap rubber suit. He was told to do that by the Twins, but he's actually a spy for the Twi'lek lady who's working for Thrawn, who is himself allied with the ressurected Darth Sidious.

[Peelee]

How would that demonstrate his innocence though? We already know the Mayor is not friendly to Boba, so killing him, or not, doesnt tell us anything new.
Killing or not killing is not a striaght up admission of innocence or guilt. However, if guilty, he has everything to gain by killing the assassin. If innocent, he has nothing to gain whatsoever by killing the assassin. So it's pretty telling.

Think of it this way. Word on the street is that you are going to serve my company with a subpoena tomorrow. Tonight I move a whole bunch of microcut paper shredders into my office and work throughout the night. That act itself doesn't prove anything at all, but it's suspicious as all hell.

The Hutts look weak no matter what there, because Boba basically just threw down the gauntlet and they backed down. I dont think we can ascertain anything about their motives from their not starting a shootout in the street, other than that they werent sure they would win.
Nothing in the scene in any way indicates they were looking for anything other than Boba Fett. Everything in the scene indicates they were looking for Boba Fett. I don't think it's out of hand to say "I think they were probably there for Boba Fett specifically".

Further, if they were just there to do some gambling or get some tribute, then being rebuffed completely by a third party is a massive show of weakness. If they were there to dispute who controls the territory and they decide to not have the battle in a public street in the middle of the city, that's significantly different.

[Keltest]

Killing or not killing is not a striaght up admission of innocence or guilt. However, if guilty, he has everything to gain by killing the assassin. If innocent, he has nothing to gain whatsoever by killing the assassin. So it's pretty telling.

Think of it this way. Word on the street is that you are going to serve my company with a subpoena tomorrow. Tonight I move a whole bunch of microcut paper shredders into my office and work throughout the night. That act itself doesn't prove anything at all, but it's suspicious as all hell.

Nothing in the scene in any way indicates they were looking for anything other than Boba Fett. Everything in the scene indicates they were looking for Boba Fett. I don't think it's out of hand to say "I think they were probably there for Boba Fett specifically".

Further, if they were just there to do some gambling or get some tribute, then being rebuffed completely by a third party is a massive show of weakness. If they were there to dispute who controls the territory and they decide to not have the battle in a public street in the middle of the city, that's significantly different.
Nothing besides Boba not actually being there or being based there you mean? He was sent there by the Mayor, don't forget, and there is no indication that he otherwise had any plans to go there.

Furthermore, if as you say they are there to dispute territory or establish authority, they STILL come off as weak because Boba basically told them to shove off, and they backed down. So either they were totally unprepared to actually do the thing they came to do, or Boba basically caught them off guard and they left rather than risk a confrontation.

[Taevyr]

Having seen episode 2:

I loved the part with the vision quest and the general fleshing out of the Tuskens: feared for a moment they'd lean into the "civilizing the tribals" thing too much, but it's handled quite well, respectfully even (for a fictional people). As for the quest themselves: if every Tusken goes through the process of going out to break off a large branch from one of few trees ever present in the Dune Sea, while high, that does explain their general hardiness as a people, even as it raises countless further questions.

Loved the use of the EU Pikes and Black K, especially that they're used in a way that 99% of viewers'll simply think "nice, evil wookiee" and "just a syndicate" and won't be left wondering at the random character that's given dramatic cues and extra screen time for no clear reason (looking at you, Abrams' needlessly dramatic "My name is Khan")

As for the present-era intrigue:

the Mayor's clearly trying to play at neutrality as much as he can, which might include setting hutts and Fett against each other for his own benefit: he's refused to give Fett tribute and asked his own, makes a point of treating him as a bounty hunter bringing in a target rather than a ruler, let alone a "liege", and never really said anything on the assassin besides killing him. I don't see him being on the Hutt's side, but he's certainly not on Fett's. And as he's aware the Hutts were after Fett, sending an assassin that supposedly came from them could work very well to play them against each other while he can keep his head down. Not certain whether that part's true, but it's quite plausible for the moment.

I imagine the Hutts "backed down" mainly because they know Fett's reputation, and don't want to risk their own lives in an altercation. They're Hutts: risking themselves is pretty anathema, especially when they can just make a graceful retreat and take the time to prepare and execute follow-up plans. They've tried the "diplomatic route", and all that's left now is the continuance of diplomacy by other means. Preferably without them risking anything but the coin spent on mercenaries and firepower

[Peelee]

Nothing besides Boba not actually being there or being based there you mean? He was sent there by the Mayor, don't forget, and there is no indication that he otherwise had any plans to go there.

Furthermore, if as you say they are there to dispute territory or establish authority, they STILL come off as weak because Boba basically told them to shove off, and they backed down. So either they were totally unprepared to actually do the thing they came to do, or Boba basically caught them off guard and they left rather than risk a confrontation.

At no point do they ever present that they are there for any other reason. They encounter him out in the open, in front of presumably a major business in Mos Espa, where a shootout would be ill-advised, regardless of their ability to win or not.

Again, I'm going to accept what we have seen. I'm not going to assume, for example, that some they were sent by the Pykes after years of being forced to pay for traversing the desert and Fett finally being easily findable, even though that could technically possibly be the case.

Instead, I'm going to assume that the Hutts who gave no indication of wanting anything not related to talking to Fett, and who turned around and left as soon as the discussion ended, had other plans they never spoke of and abandoned completely for no reason whatsoever and also had tried to kill him by hiring assassins. Even if this is true, there's virtually no reason to suspect it, as most of the conjecture was based on bad readings as I previously laid out. At absolute best, it would be arriving at the right location by taking the wrong path. I'm simply not going to walk down that path.

[Keltest]

At no point do they ever present that they are there for any other reason. They encounter him out in the open, in front of presumably a major business in Mos Espa, where a shootout would be ill-advised, regardless of their ability to win or not.

Again, I'm going to accept what we have seen. I'm not going to assume, for example, that some they were sent by the Pykes after years of being forced to pay for traversing the desert and Fett finally being easily findable, even though that could technically possibly be the case.

Instead, I'm going to assume that the Hutts who gave no indication of wanting anything not related to talking to Fett, and who turned around and left as soon as the discussion ended, had other plans they never spoke of and abandoned completely for no reason whatsoever and also had tried to kill him by hiring assassins. Even if this is true, there's virtually no reason to suspect it, as most of the conjecture was based on bad readings as I previously laid out. At absolute best, it would be arriving at the right location by taking the wrong path. I'm simply not going to walk down that path.

They did say they had plans though. They were there to assert authority over Jabba's criminal resources. That doesn't require Boba's presence, doubly so because they are apparently undecided yet on how they want to handle him personally, but it certainly becomes impossible to do once he's on the scene without starting a fight with him.

[druid91]

They did say they had plans though. They were there to assert authority over Jabba's criminal resources. That doesn't require Boba's presence, doubly so because they are apparently undecided yet on how they want to handle him personally, but it certainly becomes impossible to do once he's on the scene without starting a fight with him.

Honestly I don't see why it can't be both.

Either Boba shows up to defend what he views as his territory and they get to meet with him directly, or if he doesn't show they get to make a display of control by demanding tribute from that same territory, and using their wookiee enforcer to make sure the demand is treated seriously.

[Keltest]

Honestly I don't see why it can't be both.

Either Boba shows up to defend what he views as his territory and they get to meet with him directly, or if he doesn't show they get to make a display of control by demanding tribute from that same territory, and using their wookiee enforcer to make sure the demand is treated seriously.

I mean it certainly can be, but Boba showing up and staring them down while threatening them is pretty much the worst case scenario for them, since it undoes all the "this is mine now" work they were doing up until then. My point here is that it seems pretty implausible to me that they would show up to what will possibly be a fight with Boba Fett if they are not specifically intending to be able to win that fight without any risk to themselves. The fact that they backed down rather than Boba indicates to me that they were not prepared for a fight with him just yet, and were therefore not anticipating his arrival on the scene.

[Peelee]

I mean it certainly can be, but Boba showing up and staring them down while threatening them is pretty much the worst case scenario for them, since it undoes all the "this is mine now" work they were doing up until then. My point here is that it seems pretty implausible to me that they would show up to what will possibly be a fight with Boba Fett if they are not specifically intending to be able to win that fight without any risk to themselves. The fact that they backed down rather than Boba indicates to me that they were not prepared for a fight with him just yet, and were therefore not anticipating his arrival on the scene.

Even assuming all this is actually the case (I don't necessarily agree, it seems well within lines of how Hutts act), it still lends no credence whatsoever to "the assassin lied/the mayor did not send them", which this whole thing grew out of in the first place.

[Fyraltari]

I loved the part with the vision quest and the general fleshing out of the Tuskens: feared for a moment they'd lean into the "civilizing the tribals" thing too much, but it's handled quite well, respectfully even (for a fictional people).
It does have some shades of the "Mightey Whitey" story beat, what with the "civilized" character learning the way of the natives and leading them to victory and the concept art at the end being a clear homage to Lawrence of Arabia, I am told. But given that the lead actor is Temuera Morrison, this is probably deliberately ironic.

As for the quest themselves: if every Tusken goes through the process of going out to break off a large branch from one of few trees ever present in the Dune Sea, while high, that does explain their general hardiness as a people, even as it raises countless further questions.
I wonder if the trees really are in the Dune Sea, and the trip doesn't allow the Tusken to access some other world (as in realm of being, not physical planet). They might even be taken back to Tatooine's distant past.

Also, now that we have a spice-induced vision, I am suspecting Favreau of trying to slip in as many Dune references as he can.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Fyraltari
The artwork shown at the end shows Jawas present when Boba reaches the tree. obviously that was scrapped….

We did see red eyes in the tree when Fett first sees it, and we’ve seen red-eyed jawas, so I’m thinking the eyes were meant to be jawas.


Originally Posted by Fyraltari
Also, the bit about oceans drying, that's from Legends, isn't it? Where did the water even go?

I don’t know the canonical explanation, but when Mars lost its oceans, they evaporated into space. Something similar might have happened on Tatooine.

That said, Mars lost its atmo before its oceans, which would be the wrong sequence for what we see on Tatooine, so there may well be another mechanism at work here.


Originally Posted by Fyraltari
How does he not die of heat is beyond me, though.

In one of the Star Wars visual guides dealing with Tatooine, there was a device called a “coolth generator,” which was how slightly wealthier locals could deal with the heat. Wouldn’t be surprised if Black K has a couple of these on his person.


Originally Posted by Fyraltari
Also, the Tuskens pilfering weapons from the Pykes made me think of Darth and Droids.

I carry all the blasters so we can sell them later.

:smalltongue:

[Peelee]

I don’t know the canonical explanation, but when Mars lost its oceans, they evaporated into space. Something similar might have happened on Tatooine.

That said, Mars lost its atmo before its oceans, which would be the wrong sequence for what we see on Tatooine, so there may well be another mechanism at work here.

You ever play KOTOR? Because it's amazing and you totally should if you haven't.

[Cikomyr2]

You ever play KOTOR? Because it's amazing and you totally should if you haven't.

On the other hand, there's a specific event in BoBF episode 2 that's completely anathema to whatever culture being depicted in KOTOR

The Sand People of KOTOR would never accept to use outworlder's machines and their technological desecration of the Blessed Sands.

[Keltest]

On the other hand, there's a specific event in BoBF episode 2 that's completely anathema to whatever culture being depicted in KOTOR

The Sand People of KOTOR would never accept to use outworlder's machines and their technological desecration of the Blessed Sands.

You mean the same sand people who attack you with blasters and turrets stolen from Anchorhead, and who deploy mines to stop you and other intruders?

[Cikomyr2]

You mean the same sand people who attack you with blasters and turrets stolen from Anchorhead, and who deploy mines to stop you and other intruders?

The very same.

[Peelee]

You mean the same sand people who attack you with blasters and turrets stolen from Anchorhead, and who deploy mines to stop you and other intruders?

Don't they also task you with getting portable moisture vaporators?

Anyway, I'm not saying it must be 100%, exactly like KOTOR. Just that it's a good baseline.

.... Though I hope they make KOTOR canon again.

[Sapphire Guard]

Isn't KOTOR 10,000 years ago or something? I imagine there's a bit of room for cultural diversity in that time, not to mention that every member of the same species is not necessarily the same.

[hamishspence]

Isn't KOTOR 10,000 years ago or something? I imagine there's a bit of room for cultural diversity in that time, not to mention that every member of the same species is not necessarily the same.

Just over 3900 years before TPM.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard
Isn't KOTOR 10,000 years ago or something? I imagine there's a bit of room for cultural diversity in that time, not to mention that every member of the same species is not necessarily the same.

I’ve never played KOTOR, and have barely any idea what it is…but yes, it would certainly make sense that there would be plenty of diversity among different groups, especially if they’re in different regions and eras.

[Fyraltari]

This very episode pointed out that different Tusken clans behave differently.

[Keltest]

This very episode pointed out that different Tusken clans behave differently.

As did KOTOR, frankly.

[Cikomyr2]

I just want to make the point that whatever Lore we saw in KOTOR was from a specific tribe that had their own culture, taboos and practices and we cannot assume it is the same lore taboos and practice as the one depicted in this series.

Their origin myths can also be wildly diverging

[Peelee]

I just want to make the point that whatever Lore we saw in KOTOR was from a specific tribe that had their own culture, taboos and practices and we cannot assume it is the same lore taboos and practice as the one depicted in this series.

Their origin myths can also be wildly diverging

Wasn't really a myth in KOTOR.

[Cikomyr2]

Wasn't really a myth in KOTOR.

Part of it was. They all had their myths, interpretation and 10,000 years of distortion of the historical events.

We knew that there was an Empire of Evil, but that's about as generic a backstory for a people as having spirits.

[Fyraltari]

We did see red eyes in the tree when Fett first sees it, and we’ve seen red-eyed jawas, so I’m thinking the eyes were meant to be jawas.
Uh. I didn't notice.




I don’t know the canonical explanation, but when Mars lost its oceans, they evaporated into space. Something similar might have happened on Tatooine.

That said, Mars lost its atmo before its oceans, which would be the wrong sequence for what we see on Tatooine, so there may well be another mechanism at work here.
Water's heavier than air. It's not going to take off into space if the atmosphere's still around. Of course, this is Star Wars, so maybe the Hutt took all of it off-world to sell or some other nonsense.




In one of the Star Wars visual guides dealing with Tatooine, there was a device called a “coolth generator,” which was how slightly wealthier locals could deal with the heat. Wouldn’t be surprised if Black K has a couple of these on his person.
That's called a pack of ice.


You ever play KOTOR? Because it's amazing and you totally should if you haven't.
You know, I should get around to playing the first one someday. Heh, maybe the remake.

I’ve never played KOTOR, and have barely any idea what it is…but yes, it would certainly make sense that there would be plenty of diversity among different groups, especially if they’re in different regions and eras.
Knights of the Old Republic is a critically acclaimed Star Wars RPG video game by Bioware, where you control a Jedi leading a motley crew to fight in a Jedi-Sith War 4, 000 years before the main films (and look for pieces of a map leading to an ancient superweapon because of course.) It is famous for introducing (Darth) Revan, easily one of the most popular Legends character for being a Sith with, you know, actual depth. Also HK-47 is hilarious.

Its sequel, Knights of the Old Republic II, the Sith Lord has you playing the last known surviving Jedi in the aftermath of that war, trying to rebuild (or not, your choice) the Order and escape the resurgent Sith gunning for you. It is famous for being very critical and deconstructive of the Star Wars mythos (the last game's war is known as "The Jedi Civil War") and RPG tropes (during your travel you assemble a band of colorful characters from various walks of life with wildly different outlooks. How do they get along? Terribly) and also for not having been finished properly. It also features prominently Kreia, possibly the most polarizing character in Legends. Also HK-47 is hilarious. The Last Jedi owes a lot of its themes and concepts from this game.

The Old Republic, set three hundred years later, during a cold war between the Republic and the Sith Empire, is technically a sequel to both of those, although it is an MMORPG and many deplores the way it treats characters from the previous games. "And then they failed and died pointlessly." The vanilla game offered you to choose between four Republic-aligned classes and four Imperial-aligned ones each with its own well received storyline. The story that came with the later patches is not as well regarded (Hey, here's a surprise secret empire!).
It holds the distinction of being the only Legends IP still active. Also HK-47 is there.

[Peelee]

KOTOR's superweapon was very well done, unlike literally every other one after the original Death Star (Centerpoint Station in legends was pretty decent, though).

Also, KOTOR I had better story and KOTOR II had better game play though they both excelled in both. Also, still sore that the studio rushed the release of KOTOR II. I loved the Mandalorian bounty hunter you recruited, she was an excellent view into how differently Mandalorian culture could be demonstrated (along with Canderous Ordo from the first game).

[Cikomyr2]

KOTOR's superweapon was very well done, unlike literally every other one after the original Death Star (Centerpoint Station in legends was pretty decent, though).

Also, KOTOR I had better story and KOTOR II had better game play though they both excelled in both. Also, still sore that the studio rushed the release of KOTOR II. I loved the Mandalorian bounty hunter you recruited, she was an excellent view into how differently Mandalorian culture could be demonstrated (along with Canderous Ordo from the first game).

The cultures you get to learn about. The exploration of Jedi and Sith traditions and philosophy... Ah man, these were great games.

Have you seen Noah Caldwell Gervais's review in the context of Star Wars and the Monomyth? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OI2iOB8ydGo)

It's long, but it's really interesting. Like most stuff by Noah.

[Fyraltari]

KOTOR's superweapon was very well done, unlike literally every other one after the original Death Star (Centerpoint Station in legends was pretty decent, though).

Also, KOTOR I had better story and KOTOR II had better game play though they both excelled in both. Also, still sore that the studio rushed the release of KOTOR II. I loved the Mandalorian bounty hunter you recruited, she was an excellent view into how differently Mandalorian culture could be demonstrated (along with Canderous Ordo from the first game).

I believe you mean "Canderous Ordo from both games". Also, Mira's kind of just Mara Jade transplanted a few thousand years back.

[Peelee]

I believe you mean "Canderous Ordo from both games". Also, Mira's kind of just Mara Jade transplanted a few thousand years back.

No, I meant Mira.

Imean, also Canderous, but Mira was also raised in Mandalorian culture. She was just less bloodlusty than most Mandalorians we see.

Also, the Mandalorians on Dxun.

[Fyraltari]

No, I meant Mira.

Imean, also Canderous, but Mira was also raised in Mandalorian culture. She was just less bloodlusty than most Mandalorians we see.

I was correcting you on "Canderous Ordo from the first game", when he's in both games, even though he's secretive about his former identity as Mandalore.

True, but Mira is still obviously very close to Mara as a character.

[Peelee]

I was correcting you on "Canderous Ordo from the first game", when he's in both games, even though he's secretive about his former identity as Mandalore.

True, but Mira is still obviously very close to Mara as a character.

Yeah, but I didn't want to use spoiler tags so I kept my comment to first game for him.

[Keltest]

No, I meant Mira.

Imean, also Canderous, but Mira was also raised in Mandalorian culture. She was just less bloodlusty than most Mandalorians we see.

Also, the Mandalorians on Dxun.

I don't think Mira really identifies as Mandalorian the way Canderous does. She was raised as a slave, but she talks about them as a group she was close to, not one she was a member of.

[Cikomyr2]

I don't think Mira really identifies as Mandalorian the way Canderous does. She was raised as a slave, but she talks about them as a group she was close to, not one she was a member of.

That's called being member of an underclass :smallfrown:

[Peelee]

I don't think Mira really identifies as Mandalorian the way Canderous does. She was raised as a slave, but she talks about them as a group she was close to, not one she was a member of.

She was originally captured as a slave but was taken in by one of the families and raised as a Mandalorian. She lost this family in the routing of Malachor V.

[Cikomyr2]

She was originally captured as a slave but was taken in by one of the families and raised as a Mandalorian. She lost this family in the routing of Malachor V.

Ah. So this is her "family" like the Scarlet Chorus becomes your "family"?

[Peelee]

Ah. So this is her "family" like the Scarlet Chorus becomes your "family"?

The what in the what now?

[Taevyr]

Ah. So this is her "family" like the Scarlet Chorus becomes your "family"?


The what in the what now?

Reference to Tyranny, pretty good game and pretty great setting by Obsidian with a somewhat rushed 3rd act. Scarlet Chorus is essentially a social darwinist army that recruits by way of things like putting every 10 captives of a raid in a pit, throwing in a single knife and inducting the survivor.

So not the best comparison, I'd say. Mando's are monstrous opponents in war (I think the mando companion in 1 refers to glassing continents at one point) but disciplined, honourable in the classic "warlord people" way, and actually bother to treat and arm their people well.

Not to mention that forcing people to become mandos is kind if the opposite of what they'd do. They won't induct (or offer to induct) anyone unless they think they have the skill and discipline. Circumstances of that could be iffy, I guess.

[Cikomyr2]

Reference to Tyranny, pretty good game and pretty great setting by Obsidian with a somewhat rushed 3rd act. Scarlet Chorus is essentially a social darwinist army that recruits by way of things like putting every 10 captives of a raid in a pit, throwing in a single knife and inducting the survivor.

So not the best comparison, I'd say. Mando's are monstrous opponents in war (I think the mando companion in 1 refers to glassing continents at one point) but disciplined, honourable in the classic "warlord people" way, and actually bother to treat and arm their people well.

Not to mention that forcing people to become mandos is kind if the opposite of what they'd do. They won't induct (or offer to induct) anyone unless they think they have the skill and discipline. Circumstances of that could be iffy, I guess.

Point taken, but they still enslave entire planets of people; destroying their autonomy and then recruit what they consider to be "the best" into their "family" so they'd abandon their culture. Mandalorians of this era are nothing but imperialist brutes with delusions of honor.

[Peelee]

Point taken, but they still enslave entire planets of people; destroying their autonomy and then recruit what they consider to be "the best" into their "family" so they'd abandon their culture.

You're taking the exceptions and claiming those are the rule.

[Keltest]

You're taking the exceptions and claiming those are the rule.

Everything we've seen of the "ra ra old ways" Mandalorians sure makes it sound like it is the rule. Even Canderous flat out will tell you that the weak exist to serve the strong, frequently in the form of target practice.

[Peelee]

Even Canderous flat out will tell you that the weak exist to serve the strong, frequently in the form of target practice.

Please, then, tell me what planets are Mandalorian slave worlds. Tell me which books or comics or games have mass recruiting drives.

Even Canderous flat out will tell you that the weak exist to serve the strong, frequently in the form of target practice.
He says the first part (because, ya know, he's evil). The second part is your own invention.

[Keltest]

Please, then, tell me what planets are Mandalorian slave worlds. Tell me which books or comics or games have mass recruiting drives.

He says the first part (because, ya know, he's evil). The second part is your own invention.

KOTOR 2 doesnt name them, but Mira specifically calls out that its how they fueled their galaxy-conquering war mar machine. Obviously as of the time of the games they dont have any because their forces were crushed by Revan and neither EU really deals with a period of time in which they try something like that again, but it explicitly happened.

And yes, Canderous does leave the second part as subtext, mostly. Though there are a couple of times on Taris and in conversation where he complains about the lack of anybody giving him a real fight up until he joins you.

ETA: Cathar was basically wiped out by the Mandalorians, with 90% of the population being killed simply to make a point. Canderous also specifically calls out that they were intentionally doing this in order to try and provoke the Republic into fully mobilizing against them.

[Peelee]

KOTOR 2 doesnt name them, but Mira specifically calls out that its how they fueled their galaxy-conquering war mar machine. Obviously as of the time of the games they dont have any because their forces were crushed by Revan and neither EU really deals with a period of time in which they try something like that again, but it explicitly happened.

And yes, Canderous does leave the second part as subtext, mostly. Though there are a couple of times on Taris and in conversation where he complains about the lack of anybody giving him a real fight up until he joins you.

ETA: Cathar was basically wiped out by the Mandalorians, with 90% of the population being killed simply to make a point. Canderous also specifically calls out that they were intentionally doing this in order to try and provoke the Republic into fully mobilizing against them.


People think we war out of spite, or bloodlust. They don't understand, and fear that.

We only wanted the challenge of the battle, and glory from it – win or lose. And we lost.

I don't particularly enjoy wiping out worlds for its own sake, but the cowardly tactics the Republic defenders used left us little choice.

Hiding in the homes of civilians. Using families as shields. Thinking we would not use appropriate force on their bases inside major cities.

They underestimated our resolve and what measures are acceptable in war. Those who cannot defend themselves should not be around those who can in battle.

It was what we had wanted all along, in a way. We wanted to fight the best in a battle that would be remembered for centuries. And we did.

And Revan won.

Those who hadn't fled earlier were left with nothing to call their own: no weapons, no armor… only the honor of having fought in the battle we just lost.

For many this was not enough. While the rest of us were sent into exile on the Outer Rim, they tried to relive the old days – raiding worlds. They're nothing more than bandits now.

These are not nice people. They are savage attackers and brutal warriors. But they have reason for their fights, and when there is no reason, then they are referred to as simple bandits, not Mandalorians.

Canderous complains of the lack of challenge because that's why they fight. He openly laments being reduced to working as a mercenary, because he doesn't [I]want/I] to use his skills on the weak. Misunderstanding that is misunderstanding his entire character, and he's not shy about talking about who he is.

Your claim of "the weak are target practice" is very much your own invention.

[Keltest]

These are not nice people. They are savage attackers and brutal warriors. But they have reason for their fights, and when there is no reason, then they are referred to as simple bandits, not Mandalorians.

Canderous complains of the lack of challenge because that's why they fight. He openly laments being reduced to working as a mercenary, because he doesn't [I]want/I] to use his skills on the weak. Misunderstanding that is misunderstanding his entire character, and he's not shy about talking about who he is.

Your claim of "the weak are target practice" is very much your own invention.

Canderous glorifies his culture, because of course he does, its his culture. But when you read between the lines, and when you look at what honor means to the Mandalorians... The Neo-crusaders killed for the sake of killing. They used violence to instigate more violence. Conflict was the ends, not the means, and Carth is pretty quick to point this out to Canderous if they happen to be together in the same room for a while.

As much as he says they didnt war out of bloodlust, he sure goes all out to describe how the Mandalorians wanted the greatest, most historic conflict they had ever seen. And when you look at how many cultures and planets they trampled to get that far... Its clear that Canderous is trying to justify their actions by blaming the Republic for "forcing" them to do these things.

[Fyraltari]

Ultimately, Mandalorian culture is based on violence, this isn't a very healthy foundation for a society.

Regardless of Canderous's own moral fiber, one has to wonder what happens when the Mandalorians take over a planet. I have a hard time seeing them ruling it in the best interests of the population. Like, are they going to build hospitals and art centers and whatnot? Or they going to try and ramp up its industrial output as much as possible to fuel their warmachine, consequences be damned?

In the latter optic, using the population as slave labour makes sense, after all, the Mandalorians never claimed to care for the wellfare of anybody else, and if they don't like it all they have to do is to rise up and give the Mandos a fight. Because that's what's important isn't, it? Fighting. If somebody does not or cannot defend themselves, then on some level they deserve what they're getting.

And the Mandos left to occupy probably aren't happy about being there, away from the frontlines. What glory is there to patrol the streets of a pacified world or to oversee a factory? "My cousin's away fighting Jedi, and what do I get? Guard duty." This does not help with treating the locals well, especially once you realize that if you're tyrannical enough, they might revolt and earn you some glory which might make your superiors send you back to the frontlines.

[Sapphire Guard]

"We want the challenge. But not the challenge of the enemy doing cowardly tactics, that's too much of a challenge. We want the challenge of the enemy fighting on our terms in the way that gives us the advantage."

[MCerberus]

It should be noted that the entire Old Republic era is Legends and that there have already been changes introduced from Clone Wars cgi going forward. So are grey Jedi for that matter, and the Rogues, and I guess every single part of the EU people liked.

[Fyraltari]

It should be noted that the entire Old Republic era is Legends and that there have already been changes introduced from Clone Wars cgi going forward. So are grey Jedi for that matter, and the Rogues, and I guess every single part of the EU people liked.

So's every part of the old EU, except Tje Clone Wars, that is the idea, yes.

[Thrudd]

I don’t know the canonical explanation, but when Mars lost its oceans, they evaporated into space. Something similar might have happened on Tatooine.

That said, Mars lost its atmo before its oceans, which would be the wrong sequence for what we see on Tatooine, so there may well be another mechanism at work here.


Seeing as Tatooine is a Dune/Arrakis analogue, and how the Sarlaac played into the vision sequence, I wonder if the writers are equating the Sarlaac with sand worms and trying to indicate that they are the cause of the planet's lack of moisture. Of course, Dune's ecology and sandworm biology doesn't completely fit with science, either, but it does explain how the oceans dried up without losing the magnetosphere and atmosphere. Maybe Sarlaacs are an invasive species that caused massive environmental changes in a short time, explaining why Tuskens still have a cultural memory of the planet having oceans (and there apparently still being some dried up trees and plant life about). The hallucinogenic lizards might impart Force memories of the way in which the lifeforms on this planet are connected with its environment. That whole vision sequence was also reminiscent of Paul's Water of Life sequence from the '84 Dune film, iirc. So maybe Boba is going to be the savior of Tatooine, uniting Tuskens and helping them take back control of Tatooine from the Hutts and other crimelords while also figuring out how to start restoring moisture.

As of right now, Boba seems like he has no idea what he's doing, so I'm guessing he has some trick up his sleeve. He claimed leadership of a cartel by murdering the former leader, but seems to only have three loyal followers so far. Calling yourself a daimyo doesn't mean anything unless you've got a warband big enough to threaten people into accepting your leadership. He does not seem to have any economic leverage, either- what resources does he control that would convince anyone to do business with him? The mayor is obviously unconcerned and unthreatened. Bib Fortuna had likely already lost control of everything significant, probably being little more than a neighborhood-scale crime boss, content to pose as something bigger than he was due to the prestige of the domicile he had inherited. Boba Fett is probably going to need the fighting power of the Tusken tribes. All his enemies will be caught by surprise when he suddenly reveals that he has an army of Tuskens with blasters and speeders and gaffi stick martial arts capable of defeating even the most highly skilled bounty hunters (like him!). I'm guessing the only reason he came back to Tatooine at all was out of loyalty to his new family, trying to create a better world for them (or possibly to get revenge for them and make sure that others don't suffer the same fate, if we find out that one of the syndicates has killed his adopted tribe in a flashback).

[Peelee]

Canderous glorifies his culture, because of course he does, its his culture. But when you read between the lines, and when you look at what honor means to the Mandalorians... The Neo-crusaders killed for the sake of killing. They used violence to instigate more violence. Conflict was the ends, not the means, and Carth is pretty quick to point this out to Canderous if they happen to be together in the same room for a while.

As much as he says they didnt war out of bloodlust, he sure goes all out to describe how the Mandalorians wanted the greatest, most historic conflict they had ever seen. And when you look at how many cultures and planets they trampled to get that far... Its clear that Canderous is trying to justify their actions by blaming the Republic for "forcing" them to do these things.

Canderous openly admits that they were trying to goad the Republic into fighting. And he also talks about how Mandalorians as they existed will likely not suffice and the culture will change, along with other missions about their past. Suffice it to say that what you think is clear and what I think is clear from CNderous are not the same thing.

Regardless, though, if we get back to the original point, I'm still waiting on an answer to my question - can you tell me which worlds were Mandalorian slave worlds, and which sources talk about how commonplace it was for Mandalorians to adopt the best from these slave worlds into their families?

[Clertar]

I've caught up with the two first episodes. A lot better than I expected!

I liked how, after the norotiously lame and sloppy movie Boba Fett was retconned as a badass fighter in The Mandalorian, in this series he was retconned again: Boba Fett was a lame fighter, and when he showed up as a badass fighter in The Mandalorian that's because he had trained with a Tusken sensei after the events of RotJ.

[Fyraltari]

I've caught up with the two first episodes. A lot better than I expected!

I liked how, after the norotiously lame and sloppy movie Boba Fett was retconned as a badass fighter in The Mandalorian, in this series he was retconned again: Boba Fett was a lame fighter, and when he showed up as a badass fighter in The Mandalorian that's because he had trained with a Tusken sensei after the events of RotJ.

This show never says Boba was a lame fighter, what are you talking about? EU Boba was always shown as a good fighter regardless of reboot, he's already pretty good as a tween in The Clone Wars.

[Clertar]

This show never says Boba was a lame fighter, what are you talking about? EU Boba was always shown as a good fighter regardless of reboot, he's already pretty good as a tween in The Clone Wars.

I mean...




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4xKHWQckfI

The Boba Fett we saw in The Mandalorian would have kicked ass instead of getting his ass kicked. His Disney+ series explains the skill gap in a neat way.

[Fyraltari]

I mean...




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4xKHWQckfI

The Boba Fett we saw in The Mandalorian would have kicked ass instead of getting his ass kicked. His Disney+ series explains the skill gap in a neat way.



Yes, I said EU Boba Fett, not movie Boba Fett. But this series doesn't show Boba Fett as being weak before being trained in gaffi-stick fighting. He beats up the guard dog, stands his ground with an unfamiliar weapon for a while against the best fighter of the clan and kills the sand-monster while being severely dehydrated, axid burnt, starved and beaten up in the first episode. The man's already a killing machine.

[Peelee]

Movie Boba Fett immediately found the target that a space wizard couldn't, and then collected two different bounties on that target. I wouldn't call that "lame".

[Fyraltari]

Movie Boba Fett immediately found the target that a space wizard couldn't, and then collected two different bounties on that target. I wouldn't call that "lame".

We're talking fighting skills, though.

[Peelee]

We're talking fighting skills, though.

He was taken out by pure luck. Anyone can be taken out by pure luck.

[Cikomyr2]

He was taken out by pure luck. Anyone can be taken out by pure luck.

In my experience there's no such thing as luck

Boba was defeated through the Force, by a Jedi and his allies who can literally weave fate.

So yhea, Jabba's most impressive Fighter on the field got taken out by a "lucky shot"

[BloodSquirrel]

In my experience there's no such thing as luck

Boba was defeated through the Force, by a Jedi and his allies who can literally weave fate.

So yhea, Jabba's most impressive Fighter on the field got taken out by a "lucky shot"

I mean... let's be real here, the stuntwork, choreography, and special effects in RotJ are of course going to be dated by modern standards (even against a well-produced TV show), so characters are going to come across as less impressive in general.

But what really happened here is that Boba Fett got hit in the back -twice- because he was focusing on trying to take out a Jedi, which isn't an easy thing to do, and he lost his primary weapon to a lightsaber right at the start of the fight. That's hardly a "chump" showing.

[Peelee]

In my experience there's no such thing as luck

Boba was defeated through the Force, by a Jedi and his allies who can literally weave fate.

So yhea, Jabba's most impressive Fighter on the field got taken out by a "lucky shot"

A.) A Jedi has powers that non-Jedi don't.
2.) I really hate the idea of "the will of the Force". Regardless, Han can't weave fate.
III.) Even if he can, that only serves to strengthen to idea that movie Fett was not lame. When fate itself conspires against you, what hope do you have?

[ecarden]

A.)2.) I really hate the idea of "the will of the Force". Regardless, Han can't weave fate.
III.) Even if he can, that only serves to strengthen to idea that movie Fett was not lame. When fate itself conspires against you, what hope do you have?

I agree on this, but I will say that this is a place where the prequels screwed up. In the original sequence, a space wizard people couldn't have anticipated with unknown powers, turns up, turns the situation to total crap and in the confusion, Boba gets knocked into the pit. Not great, but definitely not something he could really predict, or control.

But then in the prequels...Boba was at the Battle of Geonosis and should have as good a grasp as any non-Jedi on their abilities, which makes the plan of 'execute Luke by dropping him in a monster's mouth,' a ridiculous one.

[The Glyphstone]

Boba was also, like, 1210 years old at Geonosis. Since he was unmodified, he's going to be looking at and remembering them as a 1210 year old would. I dont remember him doing that much fighting, at least, it was all Jango.

[ecarden]

Boba was also, like, 1210 years old at Geonosis. Since he was unmodified, he's going to be looking at and remembering them as a 1210 year old would. I dont remember him doing that much fighting, at least, it was all Jango.

Yeah, but he should remember that Jedi can jump like no one's freaking business. And then the clone wars went out of its way to make things worse by having him be an active bounty hunter during this period. Basic knowledge of Jedi abilities ought to be something he definitely has and nothing Luke does is out of the ordinary for a Jedi, which retrospectively makes Boba (and Jabba, who's also in Clone Wars and should understand Jedi abilities) look pretty dumb.

This is just a casualty of the compressed timeframe between the prequels and the original trilogy and the desire to bring in/explain everything they could.

[Peelee]

I agree on this, but I will say that this is a place where the prequels screwed up.

I'm of the opinion that the entire prequel trilogy is a place where they screwed up.

[Cikomyr2]

I'm of the opinion that the entire prequel trilogy is a place where they screwed up.

Them be fighting words :-P

[Sapphire Guard]

How can we blame the prequels for something that happened in ROTJ?

[ecarden]

How can we blame the prequels for something that happened in ROTJ?

Because until the prequels, the expectation that Boba, like Han, knew basically nothing about the Jedi, who were this legendary thing. Making them a major part of his backstory makes it much worse that he was taken by surprise by a Jedi's actions.

[Peelee]

Them be fighting words :-P
It's dangerous to fight me - I'd try spinning, that's a good trick.

Meanwhile, Lucas could help train you - which, of course, would involve nothing more than him saying "faster and more intense" any time you did anything.

Besides, would it really be a fight or would it just be us trying to hit something like two feet away from us instead of actually trying to hit each other?

I can go all day, just FYI.:smallamused:

[Keltest]

Because until the prequels, the expectation that Boba, like Han, knew basically nothing about the Jedi, who were this legendary thing. Making them a major part of his backstory makes it much worse that he was taken by surprise by a Jedi's actions.

I mean, as was noted, he was 10, and they all got killed by clones with guns. Its not remotely implausible that in the 20+ years since AotC he has forgotten or otherwise stopped caring about the Jedi and their abilities.

Besides which, the Jedi being a major thing as recently as a generation or two ago was established all the way back in the original movie.

[Peelee]

I mean, as was noted, he was 10, and they all got killed by clones with guns. Its not remotely implausible that in the 20+ years since AotC he has forgotten or otherwise stopped caring about the Jedi and their abilities.

Especially since apparently the entire rest of the galaxy did.

[ecarden]

I mean, as was noted, he was 10, and they all got killed by clones with guns. Its not remotely implausible that in the 20+ years since AotC he has forgotten or otherwise stopped caring about the Jedi and their abilities.

Besides which, the Jedi being a major thing as recently as a generation or two ago was established all the way back in the original movie.

I mean, it's pretty implausible to me that he forgot the basic abilities of the people who chopped his father's head off in front of him, attempted to assassinate and then was arrested by, only to have his chance for revenge lost when they're all killed by the newly created empire...

ETA: On the timing issue, it's partly timeframe being shorter than expected (see all jokes about how fast Obi Wan ages in the desert), but even more than that, it's scale of the Jedi and the documentation that had to exist about them makes stuff like Han's reaction real weird. I assume there's a heavily detailed explanation somewhere in the EU about how the empire suppressed all knowledge of the Jedi, except propaganda about their evil and so Han discounted the propaganda and assumed they were nothing, but, meh.

[Clertar]

Well guys, of course OT Boba Fett was a decent fighter in canon. At least above Stormtrooper level. In my qualification of his martial prowess I was taking that for granted. You could also say that Yamcha is a lame fighter in-universe, right? Even if he could beat literally most people in the universe without breaking a sweat. That's because, in the category of Dragon Ball fighters, he was routinely outclassed; even in his introduction he only managed to beat Goku because he was on the verge of passing out from hunger.

Back to Boba Fett, I don't mean to criticize the movies or the show. I just enjoyed how his series addressed something that made me raise my eyebrow in The Mandalorian S02: how Boba Fett showed up and he was beating people up left and right like no other non-Force user has done in SW, in sharp contrast with his appearences in the OT. There, he is shown to be a very competent bounty hunter, but not a fighter, sporting only long-range weapons, and relying on traps rather than beating up his bounties into submission like other bounty hunters, such as Mando. His cunning and strategic thinking is also shown prominently in his series, mind you.

No doubt the writing room of The Book of Boba Fett perceived this, because otherwise they wouldn't have addressed it very clearly in the series, what with montages showing him becoming competent at Tusken martial arts through flashbacks---they would have shown him already with Mando S02 fighting levels out of the box.

[Sapphire Guard]

So he knows Jedi can jump. He does not know about the stashed lightsabre. (he also saw Coleman Trebor be killed at close quarters with a blaster.) So Luke survives the fall...and then they shoot him. Or he jumps back on board the pod... and then they shoot him. He doesn't know Lando's playing for the other team, and it's not like Jabba said 'hey, random employee, what's your opinion on my execution methods.'

[Cikomyr2]

Especially since apparently the entire rest of the galaxy did.

I have this stupid theory that when Palpatine made his speech to the entire galaxy after doing Order 66, he actually finished a mass Sith brainwashing ritual that exploited everyone's fear and anger to make them accept that the galactic government that existed for thousands of years, with all their laws and ethics, are now a fully tyrannical autocracy where slavery is allowed.

And nobody cares.

It'd make sense to just adding a clause where everyone has collective amnesia to the Jedi except for the occasional True Believers who do remember. For everyone else it just faded into the mist of the past.

[Keltest]

I have this stupid theory that when Palpatine made his speech to the entire galaxy after doing Order 66, he actually finished a mass Sith brainwashing ritual that exploited everyone's fear and anger to make them accept that the galactic government that existed for thousands of years, with all their laws and ethics, are now a fully tyrannical autocracy where slavery is allowed.

And nobody cares.

It'd make sense to just adding a clause where everyone has collective amnesia to the Jedi except for the occasional True Believers who do remember. For everyone else it just faded into the mist of the past.

I mean, the systems that cared the most were just defeated in a major military conflict, during which Palpatine went out of his way to manipulate the remaining republic systems to be more aligned with his personal politics.

[The Glyphstone]

When 1 person represents an entire planet of millions or billions in a galactic Senate, that's a good recipe for having a vast number of sentients completely disconnected and apathetic to the government structure entirely. Anyone who wasn't a Senator or had direct influence on picking a Senator, life is going to be pretty much the same as it always was for them.

[Cikomyr2]

When 1 person represents an entire planet of millions or billions in a galactic Senate, that's a good recipe for having a vast number of sentients completely disconnected and apathetic to the government structure entirely. Anyone who wasn't a Senator or had direct influence on picking a Senator, life is going to be pretty much the same as it always was for them.

It's just.. How long did it take for Romans to openly admit they were no longer in a Republic and just refer to the Emperor as such?

I'd have believed they would have preserved the trappings of the Republic for at least 5 generations

[Thrudd]

I mean, it's pretty implausible to me that he forgot the basic abilities of the people who chopped his father's head off in front of him, attempted to assassinate and then was arrested by, only to have his chance for revenge lost when they're all killed by the newly created empire...

ETA: On the timing issue, it's partly timeframe being shorter than expected (see all jokes about how fast Obi Wan ages in the desert), but even more than that, it's scale of the Jedi and the documentation that had to exist about them makes stuff like Han's reaction real weird. I assume there's a heavily detailed explanation somewhere in the EU about how the empire suppressed all knowledge of the Jedi, except propaganda about their evil and so Han discounted the propaganda and assumed they were nothing, but, meh.

Yeah, that's definitely a problem with Star Wars in general, brought about by Lucas not giving two flips about consistent world building. Only us nerds who like sci-fi and want settings to be coherent would bother to point out these flaws, instead of just enjoying the pretty scenery, music, action and snarky quips.

As a nerd attempting to make a coherent setting out of the OT (trying to keep the entire current canon, or EU, is hopeless) I think our conclusion must be that the Jedi were already nearly extinct by the time the empire came along. They must have been very few in number for quite some time, without a prominent role in galactic politics, to explain why so many people don't believe in their powers. Those jedi who were still around must have also had a policy of using the force very sparingly, to explain why even people that encountered them occasionally didn't know exactly what they could do (see the ep.4 boardroom scene, "sorcerer's ways"). It seems that force users, both jedi and sith, kept their abilities fairly well hidden- as if, perhaps, revealing their "sorcery" might get them in trouble. Maybe galactic society had turned against force users quite a long time ago, forcing them to go more or less underground. Maybe the jedi adopted the policy of "only for knowledge and defense, never attack", to protect themselves from a fearful populace with lots of powerful blaster weapons.

Leia says Obi Wan "served my father in the clone wars", not "served the Republic". This suggests the the jedi, by that time, were no longer serving the Republic proper, but had likely taken refuge on planets where leaders like King Bail Organa (yes, he must have been a king if Leia was known as a princess) still viewed them favorably and believed in the Force. The clone wars, then, were probably not fought by large numbers of jedi publicly leading republic armies. Perhaps Palpatine contrived the conflict partly in order to force the jedi out of hiding so he could have them slaughtered, knowing that they would be forced to reveal themselves in order to protect others. Obi Wan says Owen would not want Luke following him on a "damned fool idealistic crusade" like his father did. That doesn't sound like someone duty bound to serve the government in a galaxy-consuming civil war. That sounds like someone who has found out some bad stuff is going on elsewhere and choosing to get involved, rather than being compelled.

Why did Obi Wan feel the need to teach Anakin himself, without Yoda's help, if the Jedi temple was still around? Because it wasn't still around. The Jedi were only loosely organized, or were a very small group at this time, and Anakin probably got trained on-the-fly, in the middle of an ongoing conflict that he got embroiled in (as a young adult), the same way Luke initially was. He never had a chance to bring Anakin to Yoda, the only true living Jedi Master and teacher of all the living Jedi at that time. It is possible that he was brought to Yoda, but Yoda refused him as someone with the wrong temperament/too old. As he was Obi Wan's friend, and it was desperate times, Obi went behind the master's back to train him, hence the "I thought I could train him just as well as Yoda" comment.

Yes the Jedi were "protectors of truth and justice...for a thousand generations", but probably the last several of those generations were very small, and not a lot of people knew that they were still out there protecting truth and justice. They were legendary super heroes who most people knew from stories about ancient times, not realizing that they were still around, in small number and keeping low profiles.

[Fyraltari]

It's just.. How long did it take for Romans to openly admit they were no longer in a Republic and just refer to the Emperor as such?

I'd have believed they would have preserved the trappings of the Republic for at least 5 generations

They kept The Senate going until ANH and then went "**** it, we've got a Death Star, who needs to pretend?"

[The Glyphstone]

It's just.. How long did it take for Romans to openly admit they were no longer in a Republic and just refer to the Emperor as such?

I'd have believed they would have preserved the trappings of the Republic for at least 5 generations

I'm not sure why they would bother. Palpatine was a megalomaniac with magic wizard powers and an army. The instant he also had a functional planet-nuking battle station, he abolished the Senate and the last trapping of the old Republic were 'swept away'. And he could get away with doing that because the vast majority of the galaxy simply didn't care. Take someone like Watto, living on a fringe world; you tell him the Galactic Republic is now the Galactic Empire, and he'll be like "thats cool, cash or credit?" The overwhelming majority of a planet's people would never have met the Senator supposedly representing their interests - depending on the planet, they might not have even gotten a voice in choosing that Senator. If their planet no longer has a Senator who they didn't care about or interact with in the first place, what difference does it make?


They kept The Senate going until ANH and then went "**** it, we've got a Death Star, who needs to pretend?"

Exactly.

[Keltest]

Depending on where you were, you might not even have a senator who is actually from your planet or species. In the old EU, Corellia had one senator but three planets with an equal number of species.

[Peelee]

Depending on where you were, you might not even have a senator who is actually from your planet or species. In the old EU, Corellia had one senator but three planets with an equal number of species.

Five planets. The twin planets orbited each other but as a system they orbited the star.