Temporal Sentinel (Echo Knight / Chronurgy) Build

[bsullivanp]

I am about to start up a campaign that goes to level 13 and decided to spin up a multiclass that I thought was interesting and always wanted to try. An Echo Knight 6 / Chronurgy Wizard 7 MC.

The idea is that the PC has an Acolyte background and is a disciple of Chronos, the Father of Time. He has studied in battle techniques and magic that manipulate time and timelines, such that he can speed up or slow down time, momentarily stop or reverse time, and even pull shadows of himself from other timelines to aid him in battle.

I thought the main skills of Echo Manifest (pulling versions of me from other timelines), Chronal Shift (Reversing Time to change outcome), and Momentary Stasis (Momentarily freezing time) all lent themselves to a really cool character flavor.

Downside is that this build is a bit tricky because its a MAD (STR/INT/CON), but I think could be effective. Have some questions for this group, since I have never played either an Echo Knight or a Chronurgy Wizard, so am generally looking to see if this is a viable option. Here is the proposed build. Time Warden Build (level 13) (https://www.dndbeyond.com/profile/BrewnorBattleHammer/characters/60822849)

Race: Variant Human
Starting Stats: STR: 15 / DEX: 8 / CON: 14 / INT: 15 / WIS: 10 / CHA: 8
Final Stats: STR: 18 / DEX: 8 / CON: 14 / INT: 18 / WIS: 10 / CHA: 8
Feats: Sentinel (Starting) / Tough (late game)
Fighting Style: Dueling
Equipment: Heavy Armor / Sword & Board
Spellbook:
Cantrips: Booming Blade, Light, Sword Burst, Ray of Frost (campaign is Avernus so no fire)
Level 1: Absorb Elements, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Find Familiar, Shield, Feather Fall, Gift of Alacrity, Protection from Good and Evil
Level 2: Hold Person, Mirror Image, Misty Step, Shadow Blade
Level 3: Counterspell, Haste, Lightning Bolt, Slow
Level 4: Dimension Door, Greater Invisibility

My questions:

Is this a viable build or am I going to be underpowered by end game?
Should I be thinking STR build or DEX build (for the initiative and pick up Mage Armor, Rapier instead)?
GWM or stick with Sword & Board?
How is the spell selection. Anything I should change?
How should I be thinking about approaching the playstyle?
I think this is a cool idea but thought I would go to the experts! Thanks!

[Sillybird99]

I think you could do better with ASI/feats than sentinel and tough. I hear a lot of people all the time recommending sentinel for echo knight, but I don't think they are using it RAW. Having looked at how the feat should work, and having played an echo-knight up to 5th level, I can think of many more things I'd rather spend that precious resource on than sentinel. even just getting Str and Int both to 20 I think would make you largely more effective than these two feats.
GWM isn't a bad choice, but it doesn't really start paying off big for fighters until they get extra attack×2 at fighter 11 (which you won't) or they have a reliable source of advantage.

Leaving Con at 14 is probably Okay since you don't have to be on the front lines, and 2 unleash incarnations is enough to get your full nova with action surge once per day. Using those ASI for 18 con, though, would allow that full nova twice per day.

[Bobthewizard]

I think your build is great. Echo knight's are fun and then adding in the wizard levels is great flavor and gives you more utility in tier 2.

I think Sentinel is a good choice, and the first 2 parts work well with the echo. You put the echo out front and then the enemy either takes the AOO/speed of 0 penalty to move around it, or they waste an attack trying to get rid of it. It works better with certain parties. If there are other melee characters, it wouldn't get triggered as often because the enemy will just attack the other tank. Then you might be better off just pumping STR.

For an echo knight, I'd probably take +2 CON over the tough feat. Less HP, but an extra Unleash Incarnation. That's probably the only thing I'd change on your build.

[da newt]

If you go sword and board, Dex build would probably be slightly better than ST as it would get you better initiative, stealth, and just as much damage.

I found Sentinel wasn't as useful as I had hoped - PAM I could count on much more often, but when it works Sentinel is great.

Does your DM rule you can BB with shadow blade?

I think you need warcaster to cast reaction spells (like shield) with your hands full, but if you went w/ a 2 handed weapon, no issue.

This should be fun and effective.

[bsullivanp]

If you go sword and board, Dex build would probably be slightly better than ST as it would get you better initiative, stealth, and just as much damage.

I found Sentinel wasn't as useful as I had hoped - PAM I could count on much more often, but when it works Sentinel is great.

Does your DM rule you can BB with shadow blade?

I think you need warcaster to cast reaction spells (like shield) with your hands full, but if you went w/ a 2 handed weapon, no issue.

This should be fun and effective.

The STR vs. DEX was one of the main things I was debating (and GW vs. S&B to a lesser extent). I could really pump up my initiative with Temporal Awareness + DEX, but I was worried about losing that AC with only the 14 CON. The DM is being very flexible with casting and will allow S spells with the shield hand (thus making Warcaster unnecessary, unless getting it for the spell OAs).

I don't think we can use BB w/ Shadow Blade, but figured it might be useful nonetheless. The other option I was thinking about was either taking Crossbow expert and rolling in with a Longsword/Hand Crossbow or Rapier/Hand Crossbow, or just not going Var Human and taking the attribute bumps on Half-elf/Elf or something. That's disappointing that you didn't find Sentinal that useful, that was one of the main benefits I was looking for. I figured between that lockdown ability, the ability to swap around the battlefield with echoes, and the ability to erase crits or failed saves against me with Chronal Shift, it was creating a PC with a ton of tools in his toolbox to play a very flexible playstyle.

[Sillybird99]

It is still very flexible. I found myself being very useful in and out of combat with the echo, solving problems same level casters couldn't with spells. The 3D mobility is awesome for blocking and threatening monsters. I held a line of 5 monsters with just me and the echo knight and took 0 hits in a round because 2 missed the echo (3rd hit) and the other two missed me when I cast shield (had a 1 level dip in caster). You can solve traps safely (rescued an ally from a 30ft pit with echo), get over obstacles and on roofs, etc. It's awesome. Don't worry about getting fewer or less effective OA. Having your reaction available for shield and absorb elements is probably better in many cases.

And you will still be mostly a wizard! So you should always be able to find something to do. Nothing wrong with just taking strait ASI with this character. Sword and board is very good if you aren't doing GWM, especially if you don't need warcaster. WC could be worth taking anyway though as it offers a lot to a gish build like this.

Remember too that by RAW you can't booming blade (or any spell) through the echo because it is the cast a spell action not the attack action, so trying to optimize BB with things like warcaster might lead to disappointment without homebrew.

[bsullivanp]

It is still very flexible. I found myself being very useful in and out of combat with the echo, solving problems same level casters couldn't with spells. The 3D mobility is awesome for blocking and threatening monsters. I held a line of 5 monsters with just me and the echo knight and took 0 hits in a round because 2 missed the echo (3rd hit) and the other two missed me when I cast shield (had a 1 level dip in caster). You can solve traps safely (rescued an ally from a 30ft pit with echo), get over obstacles and on roofs, etc. It's awesome. Don't worry about getting fewer or less effective OA. Having your reaction available for shield and absorb elements is probably better in many cases.

And you will still be mostly a wizard! So you should always be able to find something to do. Nothing wrong with just taking strait ASI with this character. Sword and board is very good if you aren't doing GWM, especially if you don't need warcaster. WC could be worth taking anyway though as it offers a lot to a gish build like this.

Remember too that by RAW you can't booming blade (or any spell) through the echo because it is the cast a spell action not the attack action, so trying to optimize BB with things like warcaster might lead to disappointment without homebrew.

That's impressive!

We have a Paladin and a War Cleric in the party, so I won't need to be relied up on to be main front line anyways, but I think this build could be very effective in "spreading" the front line laterally (covering our flanks), while the Paladin makes up the center front line. I wish that the campaign went past 13 because it feels like this build could be even stronger in late game (F6/W14 or F11/W9). But I should get a good feel for the build through 13 levels. So it sounds like you are in favor of NOT going Sentinel in favor of ASIs? or perhaps GWM to give my echo better damage, although wouldn't Shadow Blade be better than both (even without BB)? I thought Shadow Blade was 2d8 minimum + modifier. That would be better than any GW damage by itself, before I even upcast it, right?

[Sillybird99]

Yeah, I think prioritizing str/dex, con, and Int will do you better. you have some many cool abilities, you dont really need feats to have fun and do awesome stuff. The bonus to hit, damage, saves, hp, and unleash incarnations will pull big weight.

I've never used shadow blade, but I can tell you first hand that action economy can be tricky with echo-knight. You are playing chess with a pawn that could disappear at any moment, ruining your plans. Having a bonus action available to do echo stuff would lean me away from you many bonus action spells. If you already have an echo out, using your turn 1 bonus action for shadow blade isn't too bad, but that's a round you can't teleport (Speaking of teleport, misty step might be a bit redundant, tho you will find uses for it when echo is down).

I'm not a fan of a style that depends on a single spell cast every combat because it reduces your versatility. However, when it works, it works very well. So if you are okay with "round 1 cast shadowblade, round 2 summon echo" every combat, go for it.
That being said, you can go dex without needing shadow blade to be effective.

[Mastikator]

Sentinel on echo knight is RAW.
"When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo's space."
"When you hit a creature with an opportunity attack, the creature's speed becomes 0 for the rest of the turn."

If you're going sword and board then you may need to take Warcaster to cast spells without dropping your weapon. If you go two weapon fighting instead then you can freely swap between holding the weapon as an object with one hand and switching to making two handed attack (or use a versatile weapon)

[da newt]

Always have your Echo manifested. No reason to ever not have it there. Don't wait for combat to pop it out, make it a part of you - we are always present.

If you go DEX, one lvl of Rogue might be nice for SA and Expertise, but I'm not sure where it would fit in your level progression.

If you go ST, I'd pick PAM over Sent and then you can decide between spear and shield (+dueling) and 2h w/ reach (+ Def or other FS).

BB from your position, then swap w/ Echo is a viable option.

Mage Armor + 20 Dex = Plate Armor AC with the added benefit of stealth and 1500 gp savings. As an EK, you should be doing less face tanking, so your AC is not quite as important as a traditional S&B. I'd take good initiative over 1 AC every time.

[bsullivanp]

Always have your Echo manifested. No reason to ever not have it there. Don't wait for combat to pop it out, make it a part of you - we are always present.

If you go DEX, one lvl of Rogue might be nice for SA and Expertise, but I'm not sure where it would fit in your level progression.

If you go ST, I'd pick PAM over Sent and then you can decide between spear and shield (+dueling) and 2h w/ reach (+ Def or other FS).

BB from your position, then swap w/ Echo is a viable option.

Mage Armor + 20 Dex = Plate Armor AC with the added benefit of stealth and 1500 gp savings. As an EK, you should be doing less face tanking, so your AC is not quite as important as a traditional S&B. I'd take good initiative over 1 AC every time.

Thanks da newt,

Yeah the Dex build seems very tempting, especially if I go S&B. I suppose I was thinking that by level 13, 1500gp for plate wouldn't be that expensive. As far as the PAM & Spear, would the PAM work with the echo at all? Also, even if it did, wouldn't the PAM Bonus Action compete with the action economy on my echo to begin with? I assumed Sentinel was a bit of a lock down tactic, where I could send an echo out, force the enemy to either kill it (wasting an action), or run at me (initiating the OA, and dropping the speed to zero on a hit). Later. Rinse. Repeat. From that build, I assumed that I would be burning through BAs to keep summoning echoes, so PAM would compete. Maybe I'm thinking about it wrong. Plus, as a wizard, I could be casting Shadow Blade or Spirit Shroud and be doing 2d8 + modifier on every hit during this time, so would think locking down would be a more useful tactic than the added 1d4 + mod of PAM.

[Hytheter]

RAW the echo doesn't trigger PAM reactions, and there is bonus action conflict. I would avoid that feat, personally.

[Bobthewizard]

I think STR longsword with dueling, DEX rapier and shield with shadowblade, or GWF/GWM are all relatively close in effectiveness. Play the one that fits your character concept. With the sword and board builds, you'll need warcaster, so from a feat standpoint, you're either taking GWM or warcaster.

Agree that PAM is usually not a good feat for an echo knight. The reaction attack is good for you to use when they get past the echo and approach you. I use my bonus action most rounds to either create a new echo or swap places, but if the DM is going to ignore your echo and always focus on the paladin, then PAM might be worth it. If your DM attacks your echo half the time, then your BA will be used to summon the echo.

I like GWM better than PAM for an echo knight. Put your echo in melee and you don't need a shield.

Since you have a paladin tanking, you won't get to use the first two parts of sentinel very often, and you can't use the third part through the echo. So maybe skip that. If you are the only tank, sentinel is amazing. If you are using flanking, the echo by RAW doesn't trigger that, so beware of that.

On an echo knight, misty step is mostly redundant but can be useful to escape grappling or restrained since you need movement to swap places with the echo.

These aren't really suggestions, just things to think about.

[bsullivanp]

I think STR longsword with dueling, DEX rapier and shield with shadowblade, or GWF/GWM are all relatively close in effectiveness. Play the one that fits your character concept. With the sword and board builds, you'll need warcaster, so from a feat standpoint, you're either taking GWM or warcaster.

Agree that PAM is usually not a good feat for an echo knight. The reaction attack is good for you to use when they get past the echo and approach you. I use my bonus action most rounds to either create a new echo or swap places, but if the DM is going to ignore your echo and always focus on the paladin, then PAM might be worth it. If your DM attacks your echo half the time, then your BA will be used to summon the echo.

I like GWM better than PAM for an echo knight. Put your echo in melee and you don't need a shield.

Since you have a paladin tanking, you won't get to use the first two parts of sentinel very often, and you can't use the third part through the echo. So maybe skip that. If you are the only tank, sentinel is amazing. If you are using flanking, the echo by RAW doesn't trigger that, so beware of that.

On an echo knight, misty step is mostly redundant but can be useful to escape grappling or restrained since you need movement to swap places with the echo.

These aren't really suggestions, just things to think about.

Very helpful, Bobthewizard,

The DM is being very flexible and allowing S spell components with a shield in hand, so it makes taking Warcaster unnecessary (at the very least not as important to take as the initial feat). To me, the call was either Sentinel (with Sword and Board), or GWM (with GWF build). As far as Misty Step, you are probably right that it is redundant. I suppose I was thinking for flavor (the PC is a master of time and time manipulation, so I had envisioned Misty Step as him slowing down time to move to another location, looking like a teleport to others). But from a optimization standpoint, I think you are correct.

[Bobthewizard]

As far as Misty Step, you are probably right that it is redundant. I suppose I was thinking for flavor (the PC is a master of time and time manipulation, so I had envisioned Misty Step as him slowing down time to move to another location, looking like a teleport to others). But from a optimization standpoint, I think you are correct.

Oh. It's not a terrible choice. In case this helps, I found my echo knight 3/ hexblade X that I called the Templar of Time (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24504068&postcount=438). The spells part is probably the most relevant to you. I only got to play this as a level 20 one-shot. I'd love to play it from level 8 up. It was a similar character to yours but I like the addition of chronurgy wizard for theme and yours is definitely better at levels 5-7, and at least equal at other levels.

[bsullivanp]

One thought that did come up, however, was whether to swap my starting attributes to go 16 CON instead of 16 INT. That would leave my final stats as STR 18 / DEX 8 / CON 18 / INT 16 / WIS 10 / CHA 8 if I skip Tough feat and go + 2 INT in late game. Would be 14 INT majority of campaign though.

While I clearly would like to have a high INT, this build is pretty MAD. As I look over my spells, the vast majority are spells to enhance my own combat abilities, vs. doing outright damage to an enemy. In other words, even though I'm taking more Wizard than Fighter, that the build was a Fighter first, Wizard second.

So spells like Haste, Greater Invisibility, Shadow Blade, Fly. A 14 INT wouldn't impact the effectiveness of those spells, whereas a 16 CON would give me higher concentration, more HP, and another Unleash Incarnation.

So I suppose the question is, should I prioritize STR > INT > CON > WIS > DEX/CHA or STR > CON > INT > WIS > DEX/CHA. Additionally, with a wizard 7, SHOULD I be taking more attack spells or is this build effective as is with just combat enhancing spells?

[Bobthewizard]

Either is fine. You could start with 16 STR/CON then +2 STR at 4, +2 Int at 6 and 10. The 16 CON makes the most difference at levels 1-4 before you get extra attack. The higher INT is more important later.

You don't need a lot of offensive combat spells. Your action is perfectly fine as an echo knight. So buffs and utility are good uses. In that case, leave INT at 14.

[da newt]

IMO - PAM is better than Sent because it allows a BA attack every turn (from you or the echo), and a reaction Opp Att every time someone enters your range (aka gets past your Echo) vs Sent ignores disengage, IF you hit someone w/ an Opp Att they go to 0 speed, if someone hits the guy next to you then you can make a reaction att (note it is not called an Opp Att, so the 0 speed part doesn't trigger on these).

In my experience, Sent triggered very infrequently. If a bad guy wanted to get past my echo, they just hit it (but this will depend on your DM's combat style quite a bit). But you are right - your BA will get plenty of use.

I don't think you can make a bad decision here.

BTW - I don't know how easy it will be to purchase Plate Armor in Avernus.

[Ir0ns0ul]

Really good and creative build. My only recommendation would be to not actually prioritize INT. Pretty much most of your spells don’t care about save DCs and different from Bladesingers, you don’t use your INT to boost your combat capabilities other than initiative. I believe an INT score of 14-16 would be enough.

About STR vs. DEX discussion, I would normally go DEX all-in. But as some folks said, Echo Knight synergizes really well with GWM.

[Sillybird99]

yeah, with an owl familiar helping in combat you could reliably use GWM (unless your dm has issues with that). If not, I probably wouldn't take the feat and would build dex instead for the initiative, saves, and skill bonuses

[bsullivanp]

yeah, with an owl familiar helping in combat you could reliably use GWM (unless your dm has issues with that). If not, I probably wouldn't take the feat and would build dex instead for the initiative, saves, and skill bonuses

After all of this feedback, I think I am leaning toward rebuilding with a DEX build. I think I will stick with Sentinel because of flavor (slowing down time and stopping those I hit with OA from me or my echo). Also think Ir0ns0ul makes a really good point about INT not being a huge priority.

With that, I think prioritizing ASIs may make the most sense to maximize initiative and base armor levels (while also allowing me to focus on stealth).

So with a DEX build, I would start with STR: 8 / DEX: 16 / CON: 16 / INT: 14 / WIS: 10 / CHA: 8

Starting Feat: Sentinel
Level 4 ASI: + 2 DEX (to 18)
Level 6 ASI: + 2 INT (to 16)
Level 10 ASI: + 2 DEX (to 20)

This would end me with STR: 8 / DEX: 20 / CON: 16 / INT: 16 / WIS: 10 / CHA: 8, allowing me an AC of 19 with Studded Leather + Shield, or AC of 20 (equal to plate) with no armor and Mage Armor + shield, as well as an initiative of +8. Rapier damage would do same as a Longsword, so feels like the benefits far outweigh the downsides vs. a STR: build. I doubt I would be a grappler anyways with this build. My HP would be a bit light (107 @ lvl 13) but with Echoes, Mirror Image, Shield spell, and Misty Step, I feel I have plenty of ways to buff or exit combat if needed. The owl familiar would be icing on the cake with the help action. Admittedly not doing as much damage as GWM, but losing the ASI plus the armor bonus of my shield feels like it could be too much of a tradeoff.

[da newt]

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24681222&postcount=523


This build has a very similar feel but different subclasses - might be worth a read ...

[bsullivanp]

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24681222&postcount=523


This build has a very similar feel but different subclasses - might be worth a read ...

Thanks! I'll take a look.