Unusual Warblade Gish build support request.

[Edivdrone]

So I've searched the forums on everything Warblade and Abjurant Champion, and everything I've found has been in the nature of supporting the casting class. I've been helping a friend with a refined barbarian character concept that is a light fighter progression, that dips into the arcane to progress in Abjurant Champion for the absurd manipulations of Mage Armor and Shield that can occur because of that. Now, given the rules for initiators meeting maneuver level requirements, one level of arcane caster plus 5 levels of Abjurant Champion only means an effective 3 level drop for access to maneuvers and stances, but does mean he'll only get one level 9 maneuver.

Background provided, I'm asking for ideas in terms of feats, races, which intelligence based arcane class (to simplify Ability Score management), etc, for optimization of the character. Dex based builds have a slight preference.

Arcane classes we are already looking at;

Wizard. Pros: Scribe Scroll, can add any spell of an accessible spell level to repertoire for high levels of flexibility, quickest access to 3rd level spells.
Cons: Low HD, spell failure with armor an issue until A. C. levels boost Mage Armor's protection, loss of BAB progression.

Beguiler. Pros: Trapfinding, lots of skill points, can wear light armor no issues.
Cons: Narrow spell focus, loss of BAB.

Duskblade. Pros: Best HD, maintains BAB, can wear light armor no issues.
Cons: Stupid tight spell list, levels in Jade Phoenix Mage required to reach 3rd level spells.

Thanks in advance for the help!

[Gruftzwerg]

A very simple solution to your 9th lvl maneuver problem would be a very strict RAW abuse of Martial Study (and/or Martial Stance if you like). Because by RAW those feats only request from you to fulfill the "Requirements:" of a maneuver/stance before you may pick em. "Initiator Level:" thus is not part of the requirements for those feats. Initiator lvl is only relevant for picking those maneuvers via an Initiator class or when the abilities rely on Initiator lvl to scale.

While this may seem very OP, you have to keep following things in mind:
- you may take Martial Study only 3 times max.
- Martial Study cost feats and those are a very limited build source
- most higher lvl maneuvers require up to 3 maneuvers known. so unless you already have Initiator lvls, you won't be able to pick up most stuff.

Sure, a strict RAW reading enables some early access shenanigans for melee builds. Maybe to strong for some tables. But if you allow early access in your games (which is to 99% a caster build in 3.5) it's nothing special really.

If you use this, you could even drop some Warblade lvls in favor for caster lvls maybe.

edit: Imho you seem to have a wrong impression on why Abjurant Champion is so hyped. It's not the extra AC for the spells. Mainly it's because of the full BAB and 10/10 casting progression the prc offers. That is the real selling point here. AC optimization is very weak in 3.5 and hard to maintain if you get into higher lvls. This is because of the increasing BAB and enormous STR modifiers some higher lvl enemies have. You need to have more AC than their combined BAB and STR mod to make any difference to his d20 roll. And 20+ more than the combined value to become unhitable. Misschances are way better and cheaper and don't loose on value over the course of the higher levels.

[Maat Mons]

Sadly, Abjurant Champion doesn't boost Mage Armor, because Mage Armor isn't an Abjuration spell.

If this barbarian character concept involves levels in the Barbarian class, remember that Rage and spellcasting don't tend to mesh well. If you have access to obscure sources, a Torque of Lucid Raging (Dungeon 126, p95) will fix that though.

Missing out on high-level maneuvers is probably fine. Most of the juiciest maneuvers are mid- to low-level.

Also note that some of the best maneuvers require Concentration checks (e.g. Moment of Perfect Mind). So that's another challenge for a Barbarian character.

[Paragon]

Yeah Rage & Casting isn't a trivial synergy.
OTOH there was an Iron Chef Competition about Rage Mage which is a really theme-fitting concept.
My build featured in Jade Phoenix Mage which seems more in your alley than Abjurant Champion (plus you get to explode from rage which is awesome)

Here is the build (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24996331&postcount=63). You can scroll through the rest of them too, I wasn't the winner ;)

[ixrisor]

Note that even though mage armour isn’t abjuration, (greater) luminous armour is, so if you’re Good and in a prepared casting class you can pick that up

[Edivdrone]

A very simple solution to your 9th lvl maneuver problem would be a very strict RAW abuse of Martial Study (and/or Martial Stance if you like). Because by RAW those feats only request from you to fulfill the "Requirements:" of a maneuver/stance before you may pick em. "Initiator Level:" thus is not part of the requirements for those feats. Initiator lvl is only relevant for picking those maneuvers via an Initiator class or when the abilities rely on Initiator lvl to scale.

While this may seem very OP, you have to keep following things in mind:
- you may take Martial Study only 3 times max.
- Martial Study cost feats and those are a very limited build source
- most higher lvl maneuvers require up to 3 maneuvers known. so unless you already have Initiator lvls, you won't be able to pick up most stuff.

Sure, a strict RAW reading enables some early access shenanigans for melee builds. Maybe to strong for some tables. But if you allow early access in your games (which is to 99% a caster build in 3.5) it's nothing special really.

If you use this, you could even drop some Warblade lvls in favor for caster lvls maybe.

edit: Imho you seem to have a wrong impression on why Abjurant Champion is so hyped. It's not the extra AC for the spells. Mainly it's because of the full BAB and 10/10 casting progression the prc offers. That is the real selling point here. AC optimization is very weak in 3.5 and hard to maintain if you get into higher lvls. This is because of the increasing BAB and enormous STR modifiers some higher lvl enemies have. You need to have more AC than their combined BAB and STR mod to make any difference to his d20 roll. And 20+ more than the combined value to become unhitable. Misschances are way better and cheaper and don't loose on value over the course of the higher levels.

OK, so the wording of martial study has previously escaped me. Thanks for pointing that out. That could help rather a lot.

Quick note; AC only has five levels.

On the boost AC grants, I know I’ve seen threads with angry Abjurers ranting about how most of the best/core protective spells are not in their field of study, and the general response being to research a variant that *is* in their school. Pretty straight forward, and if a cluster of Abjurers doesn’t already have such a spell in their books for you to copy, then such a school would doubtless split research costs to get such spells developed. Yes, that is legal, though an annoyed DM might penalize a player that does so with a higher base spell level.

For the actual protection; MA at +9 armor bonus for hours, Shield for +9 shield bonus for minutes, and perhaps something like Crown of Protection for a deflections bonus, assorted dodge bonuses, and yeah, stupid high total AC bonuses are completely doable.

[Edivdrone]

Note that even though mage armour isn’t abjuration, (greater) luminous armour is, so if you’re Good and in a prepared casting class you can pick that up

I’d forgotten these, thanks.

[Maat Mons]

For feats, you'll want the usual. Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, and Leap Attack.

If you like Int and Dex, I suppose Tinker Gnome is a pretty good fit. If you for some reason don't want the bonuses to AC and attack rolls that comes from being Small, there's also Lesser Tiefling.

Wizard is definitely your best option. Beguiler and Duskblade have weaker casting in exchange for a better chassis. But when you enter Abjurnat Champion, you stop progressing the chassis of the base class, and instead only advance the spellcasting. So if you don't choose Wizard, you're throwing away part of your skill with magic to get benefits that you then also throw away. The existence of prestige classes severely devalues all the diminished-casting base classes.

[Edivdrone]

Sadly, Abjurant Champion doesn't boost Mage Armor, because Mage Armor isn't an Abjuration spell.

If this barbarian character concept involves levels in the Barbarian class, remember that Rage and spellcasting don't tend to mesh well. If you have access to obscure sources, a Torque of Lucid Raging (Dungeon 126, p95) will fix that though.

Missing out on high-level maneuvers is probably fine. Most of the juiciest maneuvers are mid- to low-level.

Also note that some of the best maneuvers require Concentration checks (e.g. Moment of Perfect Mind). So that's another challenge for a Barbarian character.

See earlier reply on angry Abjurers and protection spells that are not in the school for protective magics.

Also, it’s a barbarian themed campaign, no planned levels of barbarian. Warblade can be easily outfitted to look like a barbarian.

[liquidformat]

See earlier reply on angry Abjurers and protection spells that are not in the school for protective magics.

Also, it’s a barbarian themed campaign, no planned levels of barbarian. Warblade can be easily outfitted to look like a barbarian.

ah and here I was going to suggest going divine and going barbarain/warblade/Champion of Gwynharwyf/Ruby Knight Vindicator...

[Aracor]

A very simple solution to your 9th lvl maneuver problem would be a very strict RAW abuse of Martial Study (and/or Martial Stance if you like). Because by RAW those feats only request from you to fulfill the "Requirements:" of a maneuver/stance before you may pick em. "Initiator Level:" thus is not part of the requirements for those feats. Initiator lvl is only relevant for picking those maneuvers via an Initiator class or when the abilities rely on Initiator lvl to scale.

That's actually not true, but you need to read page 39 of the ToB to see it because they are not explicitly listed in each individual maneuver and stance.

[Gruftzwerg]

That's actually not true, but you need to read page 39 of the ToB to see it because they are not explicitly listed in each individual maneuver and stance.
*Specific Trumps General*


P39 of ToB explains the "general" rule for picking maneuvers. And that is via a martial adept class. And if you pick a maneuver due to leveling up one of those martial classes you have to follow that "general" rule.

Martial Study is a "specific" way to learn maneuvers and it says:

...
Select any maneuver from the chosen discipline for which you meet the prerequisite.
...

Now go to P44 and you'll see that "Level" & "Prerequisite" are 2 separately defined keywords.
Martial Study only asks your to fulfill the "Prerequisite" of the maneuver you wanna pick. It never asks you to have have enough (effective) Initiator Levels in those Martial Adept classes.

And if you wanna argument that the "Prerequisite" starts with:

In addition to meeting the class and level requirements before you can learn a maneuver, ..
That part is assuming that you are "normally" picking up a new maneuver (from Martial Adept class lvlUp) and reminds you of the "normal" Level reruirements. But Martial Study (specific) doesn't require that part. It just asks what the "Prerequisite" is, nothing more, nothing less.

And "Level" ain't defined as sub-variable of "Prerequisite" either. They are clearly two separate things.

Maneuvers work very different from spells and this is just one aspect of that.