Filling the gaps for a very small party [PF]

[Firechanter]

Hello Playground,

I'm running a PF1 game with a very small party, just 2 PCs, and one of the players is a complete newbie. Our heroes are a Warder and a Ranger. The advantage ofc is that they are well suited to handling lowlevel encounters, share XP and loot only between the two of them and therefore level faster than normal. The downside is that they are lacking access to (arcane) spellcasting and lots of skills, especially Knowledge. (The Warder is the Wis-based Archetype, but even as Int-based he simply wouldn't have the necessary class skills to cover the bases)
I don't want to add a full-fledged NPC Wizard to the group, but it would be great to give them some way of making Knowledge checks and gathering the required information.

Maybe some kind of magic item like a Mimir or Universal Handbook, that they can use as a Knowlege base? (But how absurdly expensive would it have to be?) Or give them the chance to befriend a smart little magical beast that can tell them stuff / make Knowledge checks for them?
Does anyone have experience with that kind of situation, and how did you solve it?

We're running a mostly PF game, but I'm allowing individual ports from 3.5, especially MIC. So if you know any items from either 3.5 or PF that would help, I'll appreciate any input.

[Kurald Galain]

If you don't want an NPC, how about a familiar? Either PC can take the Familiar Bond feat. Now get a familiar with the Sage and Figment archetypes, and you should do ok for knowledge checks.

Alternatively, the Headband of the Binder is pretty cheap and gives its wearer bardic lore ability.

[Gnaeus]

For 200 gold and 4 days they could recruit a Sage, who is a level 3 expert with whatever knowledge skills you the DM want him to have. For 960 and 7 days a level 3 bard or wizard. Downtime teams generally aren’t meant for combat but as DM you could determine how much the combat pay bonus would be or whether they might feel safe enough staying way in the back and running away from every encounter after they make their knowledge checks

[Glimbur]

What information is required? How soon do they need it? The choice of "keep exploring or return to town" already exists, it can now include "bring back clues to take to a sage to interpret."

I wouldn't charge them for it and I would have the sage be factually correct but possibly incomplete. Less helpful if they need to know the weakness of a monster they are currently fighting, but if they need info for some puzzles or can lose to but flee from a monster that only dies to Magic Thing X it could work.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Firechanter
I don't want to add a full-fledged NPC Wizard to the group, but it would be great to give them some way of making Knowledge checks and gathering the required information.

The Phantom Thief (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo-rogue-archetypes/phantom-thief-rogue-archetype/) rogue gets all Knowledges as class skills, and half rogue level on checks with one specialty skill, in exchange for losing sneak attack and trapfinding.

Less combat, more knowledge, might work for you here.

[Firechanter]

Well, so far we're making do with "show it to someone in town later", but that option might not always be available, or there could be time critical questions, and ofc it would ruin pacing if they traipse back after every other dungeon room.

I like the idea with the Familiar. There seems to be an archetype for the Ranger that changes their pet to Familiar, and that might actually be closer to the player's tastes than a regular pet. I'll investigate, but if there are any particular familiars that are useful for this, let me know. :)

For an adventure (wilderness exploration) I scheduled for a few levels down the road, the "hired sage" option might also be perfect -- actually my idea is to do it the other way round, and have a sage hire the players to escort him as he wants to explore some ruins. :D

[Seward]

You may want to play with Leadership. Even give the feat for free as an adventure reward if they choose a NPC class like Expert....somebody chooses to follow them because they earned it in play, but it's a commoner who isn't expected to do anything in a fight except try to stay alive, preferably by running away and hiding behind full cover. Your idea of the patron coming along is a classic in CRPG/MMORPG - the dreaded "escort quest". Curious NPCs that think they can overrule sensible PC instructions add a whole extra level of challenge.

The difficulty with familiar is that they have exactly the same skills as the master, which isn't as helpful unless they're smarter than the master (which, with a ranger, might be true).

Basically have a servant or squire or something to fill in the noncombat gaps. Let them have a level of wizard perhaps if you just want somebody to activate the occasional scroll or wand, or perhaps work something with Use Magic Device as part of the skills. An intelligent magic item could also fill this role (eg, something with the spirit of a sage inside. Bonus if it is an item that would have been vendor trash without the (posibly annoying) spirit present)

[Wintermoot]

When you run a small campaign for a small party, as the GM you have the option of not throwing challenges that they can't succeed at with the skills/abilities they have.

Don't gate necessary information behind knowledge checks for this game. Handle that through roleplaying. Don't throw enemies they absolutely need arcane or divine magic to beat at them.

Otherwise, don't solve the problem for them, guide them into solving it for themselves. Instead of deciding "they need a follower" or "they need a familiar" ask them what they want to do to overcome these deficiencies.

They may decide they want to hire a sage follower to lag behind them. They might ask for you to give them an item to do it rather than needing a NPC.

You can also, because its two players, use DM fiat to nudge the rules. The Ranger decides "I want to trade my animal companion for a familiar that can help" you have to OPTION of giving him a psuedodragon or lantern archon or flying vampiric book or other non-standard familiar that you can modify to let them be able to sage out on request.

[Firechanter]

Yeah, thanks for the heads-up. I think I'm actually gonna bend the rules a little. The adventure (of AD&D2 fame) I'm currently running conveniently features a Pseudodragon that is explicitly available for bonding, so screw it that it PF doesn't allow them as familiars until level 7, and I'll take some liberties with its stats and skills. So I'll tweak it a bit in that direction. (They are a bit short of level 4 atm)

--

Another question:

What ways can we think of to provide our mini-party with a modicum of Blasting (as in, AoE damage)? I know it's suboptimal in most cases, but I'm sure the players would enjoy tossing a fireball here and there, just for fun. :)
I've actually been considering switching to Gestalt, but since it's a newbie player group, I'm afraid that would be too complicated. So I'd be more inclined to provide possibilities of spell list expansion and consumable use.

Some ideas I'm tossing around:
- Wand of F'ball - would require to get Fireball on the Ranger's spell list and I'm not sure how to do that
- Custom magic item that can toss a Fireball 2-3/day
- Explosive Arrows sorta like in Rambo 3, but I'm not aware of such an item.

The Ranger player would also consider multiclassing with Empyreal Sorcerer, but I'm worried this might offer too little return for the investment.

[Kurald Galain]

What ways can we think of to provide our mini-party with a modicum of Blasting (as in, AoE damage)? I know it's suboptimal in most cases, but I'm sure the players would enjoy tossing a fireball here and there, just for fun. :)
Necklace of Fireballs?

[Wintermoot]

Again, don't be a slave to the rules. You have a ranger. if it's an Archer ranger, then absolutely slip a Ehlonna's quiver into a treasure pile filled with hawkeye trick arrows. Take the necklace of fireballs and turn them into arrows and let him become hawkeye. You can even slip some additional "spells" in there as arrows.

Web arrows
Melf's acid arrows
Light arrows

Don't go overboard, but be creative. And if it's successful, then when they check the arrows over, they find a little 'creator" mark that leads them to an alchemist in a nearby village where they can purchase replacement arrows (price them like equivalent potions maybe)

that way your ranger can FEEL gestalt without actually being gestalt and gets to enhance the player's choice of main schtick instead of having to force in a new main schtick the player didn't want.

And if you want to move TOWARD gestalt, perhaps this will get the player of hte ranger interested in alchemy and making magic items and you can bring up the idea of gestalting as an alchemist or wizard as a way of "playing into his new interest" without letting on that the only reason he has the new insterest is because you led him there.

Now if the Ranger has both the psuedodragon and the magic quiver, you will need to likewise "fake gesalt" the warder to let him keep up. So as you've "magic user ified" the ranger, i would recommend "cleric ifying" the warder. Perhaps giving him a set of nice armor that once belonged to a powerful cleric and is now haunted by that cleric's ghost. At first the ghost showed up as comedy relief and minor obstacle, but once the warder figures out how to deal with the ghost, he finds he can start casting some cleric spells through the armor or through a custom school of maneuvers/stances you create that he can add to his list to get some cleric like abilities. (again, the goal is to make the additions feel organic to the character the player wants to play, not to force them to play a character they don't want to play. he CHOSE warder, he wants to use maneuvers and stances, he wants to play with that mechanism. So the more organically you can fit the new powers in, the more likely they are to like the change.

[Firechanter]

Yeah those are great ideas ^^
I'll fiddle a bit with it, as I also don't want to bust WBL by too much. But I guess giving them an extra 35-50% in permanent gear at any level, plus some extra consumables, would be fair.
She's a Switch Hitter btw, so both ranged and melee tricks will be fine.

As for the Warder, he already has a pretty good idea where he wants to go and what items he wants to have. Currently he's much more effective than the Ranger, and I'm a tad worried the Ranger's starting to feel overshadowed. I guess the biggest favour I could do beyond the standard options would be more Maneuvers Known and Readied. I also know he wants to wield a B.F.S. so I'm gonna drop him a set of Strongarm Bracers of MIC vintage and a Titan's sword to go with it, in due time.

But yeah, if the Ranger's getting Wizardy goodies, mb the Warder should have some Clericy ones, maybe an item that grants a domain and a few spells or so. ^^

[Wintermoot]

Yeah those are great ideas ^^
I'll fiddle a bit with it, as I also don't want to bust WBL by too much. But I guess giving them an extra 35-50% in permanent gear at any level, plus some extra consumables, would be fair.
She's a Switch Hitter btw, so both ranged and melee tricks will be fine.

As for the Warder, he already has a pretty good idea where he wants to go and what items he wants to have. Currently he's much more effective than the Ranger, and I'm a tad worried the Ranger's starting to feel overshadowed. I guess the biggest favour I could do beyond the standard options would be more Maneuvers Known and Readied. I also know he wants to wield a B.F.S. so I'm gonna drop him a set of Strongarm Bracers of MIC vintage and a Titan's sword to go with it, in due time.

But yeah, if the Ranger's getting Wizardy goodies, mb the Warder should have some Clericy ones, maybe an item that grants a domain and a few spells or so. ^^

WBL limits are pointless in a 2 person party with no spellcaster crafters. (the limit is really there to try and help balance classes in larger parties, but also to serve as a curb on crafting) So I wouldn't worry about it too much. Especially if the extra gear they are getting is to offset the small party size.

If the addition of the quiver and the pseudodragon helps balance the ranger to the warder, then don't worry about giving the warder an equivalent boost. Job done.

Giving her a quiver of hawkeye arrows would also serve to gently nudge her into concentrating on one fighting style over the other (archery over melee) which would help her catch up with the warder in effectiveness. Nothing hamstrings a ranger build like trying to do both fighting styles together because you'll never do either well. And she'll never match the warder in hand to hand. So toss a couple ranged encounters in (fight over the chasm!) to give her a chance to shine. And you would be getting her to make the decision herself instead of forcing it upon her so she'll feel more empowered.

[Firechanter]

Yeah, good points. It actually eases my mind that I can be more relaxed on the treasure allocation, and tbh I also noticed in previous games that "too much" WBL isn't half as big of a problem as "too little".

Though to be fair, a Switch Hitter is fairly viable in Pathfinder. Yes you won't be as effective at Melee or Ranged as a dedicated character, but you can be pretty competent at both and will never be caught fully pants-down (physical-combat wise). Still, if the player ever reconsiders and wants to focus on Ranged-only, that shall also be fine by me.

When it came to class selection for that player (who had absolutely no gaming experience before), I kinda did softly steer her towards minor-casters like Paladin or Ranger. I was hoping to find the sweet spot between "easy to play" and "varied gameplay". With a Fighter for instance I'd see the danger that she'd soon find herself doing the same thing ("I hit it with a stick") over and over. A Magus or Inquisitor OTOH would certainly be more flexible, but might be overwhelming to a new player with all their class features and spells. So I figured that having a few easy to use features and a modest array of spells plus the ability to use spell-trigger items might be the most rewarding entry. We'll see how it goes.

As for the magic quiver, I'm wondering if I shouldn't make it a custom quiver that creates up to n "Hawkeye" arrows per day, sort of like an Eternal Wand or other charges-per-day item, and possibly even bases the associated spell's damage on the user's Caster Level, for a somewhat more future-proof application. Idea being "use it or lose it" whereas with single-use ammunition pieces the player might end up stockpiling them for eternity or at least beyond the point of usefulness.
Oh, how about this: a quiver that in its basic form functions like a Quiver of Ehlonna, but adorned with a number of sockets that can be fitted with special magic gems, a bit like the weapon crystals of MIC. Each such gem enables the quiver to generate 2-3 special arrows per day. That way the quiver would be gradually upgradeable, and finding fitting gems could be sidequests of their own.

[Seward]

Y I also noticed in previous games that "too much" WBL isn't half as big of a problem as "too little".


Truth. Too little just makes folks who can cover with buffs instead of 24x7 items much more important. Which makes gap between casters and noncasters past L8 or so MUCH worse. Also you get wizards with sorcerer-like spell lists who are overshadowed by divines who get entire spell list without needing to pay for scribing costs, and costs of acquiring spells to scribe. Also being buff-dependent you get a lot more "5 minute adventure days", quitting when buffs wear off, or a bad dispel happens.

Too much WBL just means maybe bumping up the encounter CR a bit. As long as it is converted into items appropriate to the needs of the party members. Also if you overdo it just give a little less for a few encounters or a limited story arc till it evens out.

[Particle_Man]

The other option is that npc bard that stays at the back and sings a lot, but has a ton of knowledge skills. Maybe a catfolk bard using their favoured class option so that they get super knowledgable, and then give them all the knowledge skills?

[Fouredged Sword]

If you don't want to run a full DMPC who runs around with the party, have you considered giving them access to an NPC who doesn't do that? They don't need a character running around with them. They need someone who can tell them things and let them have access to a limited amount of arcane casting.

So give them that. Set up "Archibald's Arcane Arcana, Spells and Arcane Knowledge by Magical Mail."

The players set up an account and get a small stone they can use to alert the proprietor that they request his services. He doesn't come himself, but he is happy to exchange small things like letters, scrolls, and potions if payment is provided via a magic spell he invented specifically to run his business.

This essentially gives the players the ability to buy arcane scrolls from anywhere, or for a reasonable fee ask the very knowledgeable wizard a question. He doesn't know everything, but he will give the question a good think and answer to the best of his abilities.

[Kurald Galain]

So give them that. Set up "Archibald's Arcane Arcana, Spells and Arcane Knowledge by Magical Mail."
I like this approach, and have done a similar thing in the past (because that party just didn't like putting points in knowledge skills). Except in my case it was a city-based campaign so they just had this local wizard as a contact, and pay him some money to spellcraft.

And why yes, of course I was planning to use him as a plot point or questgiver as needed; e.g. get him harassed by the local mafia and ask the PCs to deal with that.

[Seward]

The players set up an account and get a small stone they can use to alert the proprietor that they request his services. He doesn't come himself, but he is happy to exchange small things like letters, scrolls, and potions if payment is provided via a magic spell he invented specifically to run his business.


If the party isn't too far away, a raven familiar lets you do most of this. It can carry payment and potions/scrolls back and forth, and if you need kn skills or spellcraft or whatever it has all the skill ranks of the master (and possibly just as high intelligence if master is high level or not a wizard, but in any event better than no skill). So it can hang back, answer questions, use party rest time to carry funds back to master and light consumables back to party etc. It even has appraise and whatever business skill ranks master has. (the 1 mile restriction means master loses appraise+3 but otherwise no distance limit beyond raven's willingness to travel and round-trip-time for any commerce)

Granted the store owner can't service more than one party at a time, but how many parties are both going to be adventuring in the area and need such a service? Just right of first refusal on buying stuff party finds might be enough to get service for free or at least only a nominal charge, depending on what the adventure is and how much the master values having his raven able to report on its succeess or failure first hand.

[Kurald Galain]

If the party isn't too far away, a raven familiar lets you do most of this.
That's clever.

For a caster that doesn't want to risk his familiar, the Animal Messenger spell also works, and can explicitly deliver items. It's not a wizard spell, but a bard or druid or psychic could conceivably be the store owner and/or sage.

[Jack_Simth]

If you don't want to run a full DMPC who runs around with the party, have you considered giving them access to an NPC who doesn't do that? They don't need a character running around with them. They need someone who can tell them things and let them have access to a limited amount of arcane casting.

So give them that. Set up "Archibald's Arcane Arcana, Spells and Arcane Knowledge by Magical Mail."

The players set up an account and get a small stone they can use to alert the proprietor that they request his services. He doesn't come himself, but he is happy to exchange small things like letters, scrolls, and potions if payment is provided via a magic spell he invented specifically to run his business.

This essentially gives the players the ability to buy arcane scrolls from anywhere, or for a reasonable fee ask the very knowledgeable wizard a question. He doesn't know everything, but he will give the question a good think and answer to the best of his abilities.

That's clever.

For a caster that doesn't want to risk his familiar, the Animal Messenger spell also works, and can explicitly deliver items. It's not a wizard spell, but a bard or druid or psychic could conceivably be the store owner and/or sage.


Ring Gates (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/r-z/ring-gates/) are a published item that can be used this way. Stuff that is pushed partly through, then withdrawn, doesn't count against the daily limit. Leave one with the sage back in town. Stick your head in when you need a consult, if he needs to look around, he can stick his head through (Once it's safe). Just needs to be on the same plane, in 100 miles. Theoretically networkable by using multiples.

Some of the Figurines of Wondrous Power can also be used similarly: A Silver Raven (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/e-g/figurines-of-wondrous-power/silver-raven-figurine-of-wondrous-power/) or a Tin Imp (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/e-g/figurines-of-wondrous-power/tin-imp-figurine-of-wondrous-power/) will do reasonably well.

[Firechanter]

Went for the solution w the Sage Familiar now, giving the Ranger the "Divinely Bound Ranger" archetype. The print module I was running featured a Pseudodragon anyway that wants to bond with a party member, so we're twisting the PF rules a little bit and giving her the "Improved Familiar" at level 4 (instead of 6 as per the archetype).
So rn the mini dragon can roll almost any Knowledge check (bar 2) at +8, and on upcoming levels I'll have it focus on a few key KN skills. In time they can buy him a tiny Headband of Int, that will look so adorable and be keyed to some of the remaining KN skills.
At level 5 the AT gives Evolved Familiar, and the 1-point Evolution can bump up one skill by another +8. (The most important KN skills in my planned campaign are going to be Arcana and Nature. Ofc the Ranger is pretty rubbish at Kn Nature due to just 10 Int).

If we use the Evolution to maximize one Knowledge, by level 10 the little guy could rock those checks at +30-something (10 ranks + 3 class + ~5 Int + 5 Sage bonus + 8 Racial/evolution).

Depending on how the party fares, I might switch things up a bit in a few levels and give the pseudodragon actual Wizard levels, so they'd have more direct access to key arcane spells. So it would basically exchange Improved Familiar for Leadership, I guess. Though technically that would remove the familiar from the character. Not sure how to best implement it. ^^