Is Druid Herbalism OP?

[SangoProduction]

OK, I get that it replaces the animal companion as an option, and said animal companion is pretty nice. And who doesn't love a cute pupper who rips people to shreds and fetches the stick?

But getting [Wis mod] free, permanent potions per day? Up to 5 max level spells each day, in addition to the normal allotment, and they accumulate? (Granted, with the same target limitations as potions, but still.)
And then it just improves with levels?

Like wow. Is there something I am missing?
If I didn't see the Healer's Handbook myself, I would have thought this was some ridiculous homebrew that some munchkin brought to the table.

[Serafina]

If there's any downtime at all, it just instantly shatters the economy if you're allowed to sell the potions - unless the GM makes use of the vague "NPCs unfamiliar with Druidic Herbalism may need some convincing before purchasing these wares" clause to put a stop to that.

But even then, you can stockpile a silly amount of potions. Assume 5 days of downtime - no wait, even just travel time - for a 5th-level Druid, and bäm they have 15 additional 3rd-level spells. Sure, they need to meet the requirements to be a Potion, but even just going off the default Potion list that's useful stuff (though I bet that's how they justified it in design, because that's comparatively tame).

And even if you restrict the Druid from Stockpiling entirely (entirely against RAW) - at low levels, that's 5 additional 3rd-level spells from a limited list, that other PCs can use, that's nothing to sneeze at.

Oh, and as a special bonus, at 7th level you just get to make Infusions (of any level spell) - so now your fellow PCs can cast spells for you, improving overerall action economy and allowing some neat usage of your spells when you are not around.

So yeah, it's extremely potent.
And given that you can just get an Animal Companion back in several ways, it's easily the strongest option there is.

[icefractal]

Yes, but not as much as you'd expect, due to potions being kind of bad.
Like it definitely is an OP option, it's just not as much power as you'd expect from "unlimited consumable items".

Fun combo with Dreamed Secrets (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dreamed-secrets/) - stockpile any Sor/Wiz potions you want to as well.

[Rynjin]

Our group exclusively refers to it as "OPOP Druidic Herbalism".

Mind you nobody bans it, but we find it amusing how overpowered it is compared to the AC and Domains.


Yes, but not as much as you'd expect, due to potions being kind of bad.


I'm curious to hear the logic behind "free extra spell slots are bad".

[icefractal]

They're not "bad" as in without use (as I said, it's still OP). It's just that Potions are kind of the worst consumable.

Offensive Stuff: Only if it doesn't have a save (crap DC), and is single target, and you'd be using it from within potion throwing range anyway.
Buffs: Long duration stuff (hours/level) works great. Anything shorter starts consuming a lot of potions to run constantly, which is a problem if your campaign doesn't have a large amount of downtime. Otherwise you're applying buffs in combat, to only one person at a time, and more slowly than normal as you have to draw potions. More importantly, many of the best buffs are Personal range (not allowed).
Healing: Works great out of combat, little clunky in combat.
Utility: Works great.

[Rynjin]

They're not "bad" as in not worth it (as I said, it's still OP). It's just that Potions are kind of the worst consumable.

Offensive Stuff: Only if it doesn't have a save (crap DC), and is single target, and you'd be using it from within potion throwing range anyway.
Buffs: Long duration stuff (hours/level) works great. Anything shorter starts consuming a lot of potions to run constantly, which is a problem if your campaign doesn't have a large amount of downtime. Otherwise you're applying buffs in combat, to only one person at a time, and more slowly than normal as you have to draw potions. More importantly, many of the best buffs are Personal range (not allowed).
Healing: Works great out of combat, little clunky in combat.
Utility: Works great.

The potions are completely free, meaning they can always be made at max caster level, and are created near-instantly. The only thing here that applies is the "offensive potions" problem (that they'll have a bad DC).

I'd argue whether potions are bad at all, but that's not really relevant. Druidic Herbalism is for most purposes not even a potion, as it does not have the same restrictions in many ways.

[Kurald Galain]

Most campaigns that I've been in don't have downtime; if you don't have downtime, the money gained from selling potions is rather trivial compared to what you make dungeoncrawling. If you do have downtime, then yeah at level 3 a week will net you enough gp to buy a Belt of Strength or +2 cloak or armor, and that's rather OP. I'm rather surprised that the feature spells out that you can sell potions.

I'd say that out-of-combat healing is not a big deal because channel or CLW wands do pretty much the same. However, long-term buffs are a problem. Most druid buffs can't be made potions (because they're self only) but for starters there's Barkskin, and giving the whole party Barkskin at-need is a big deal.

So yeah. Good idea, poor execution. If the potions expired after one day and couldn't be sold, then this would be comparable to domains (as in, both give you extra spells-per-day but with restrictions).

[Rynjin]

I think that was the nerf I went with last time someone wanted to take it, now I think of it. It helped that the player wasn't a super great optimizer.

[Serafina]

Well, it needs to be compared against the other class feature options - Animal Companion and Domain - to say whether it's good or not.

Animal Companion is good, and worth three feats (Nature Soul, Animal Ally, Boon Companion). Depending on how you use it, and what level of optimisation is being played at, it can provide mobility, intelligence gathering, bonus to attack via flanking, a lot of extra damage, and some protection. And of course be a nice RP feature.

Domains provide one extra spell slot per spell level, and some additional spells known, both restricted to each other, as well as some limited features. How good those features are varies - the best domain can just give an animal companion, even.
But the spells themselves are just 1-9 spell slots. That's good, but a fairly measurable impact.


Okay, it's probably best to do a side-by-side comparison of the two at a given level. 9th level sounds decent enough.

First, a Druid with the Animal (Feather) Domain to get both an Animal Companion and a Domain. They get +4 to Perception checks, +2 to Initiative during a surprise round, and five additional spells per day in which they can cast Calm Animals, Feather Fall (as a 2nd-level spell), Fly, , Summon Natures Ally (Animals Only) and Beast Shape III (Animals Only)
Also, they have an Animal Companion - it doesn't need to be a bird. So they picked a Roc, which at this level increases to Large Size, has +12 natural armor total (and +6 dexterity, and decent amount of HP), two natural attacks that attack for +9 with 1D8+5 and 1D6+5 and Grab.
So they got themselves a very good flying mount, and can use it to both make strafing attacks, and rain spells from it. They can send one other ally flying, and have feather fall for emergencies too.


Second, our Herbalist.
First, they're a Samsaran, for access to 6 off-list spells - and unlike most Samsarans, they pick 1st to 3rd level spells, so they don't have to wait forever to get access to them. They also have Dreamed Secrets, so all the Wizard potions are now an option. They also take a one-level dip into the Loremaster PrC and take the Secret of Magic Discipline (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/secret-of-magical-discipline/) feat - now they get to cast any spell once per day, and while that works with potions that's just great on their own.
And while we're at it, the secret they get could also just be a +2 to Will Saves, making it easier to be a Feyspeaker, which allows them to grab a bunch of Wizard Enchantment or Illusion spells on top of everything. And then they can go into the Veiled Illusionist PrC, for Druid 5, Veiled Illusionist 3, Loremaster 1.

So what is that all actually good for?
Well, even if they only prepare new potions every day, they get six or seven potions per day - so more additional spells than the Druid above, even if they're at lower levels (and the discrepancy is higher at lower level). If any are saved from a previous day, it can be up to twice as many - or three times, four times, and so on.
So here's what they get:
- Heroism for the whole party
- Fly-potions, thus potentially stockpiled in large amounts
- Barkskin for the whole party
- the ability to grant the whole party a Burrow speed
- stockpiled Invisibility potions
- emergency healing via cure serious wounds (CLW wands are great but not emergency healing)
- a bunch of other stuff depending on what exact spells you grab, though that's not as infinite as it appears


So compared to an optimised Animal Companion, I'd say it depends on how much you get to abuse the stockpile feature.
If you do - well if everyone in the party gets Heroism, Barkskin, Fly, the option to go Invisible, and to infiltrate via Burrow? That's several days of stockpiled potions (for a 4-adventurer party, that's 20 potions, so 3-4 days of preparation, more if you want more options).
If you get that, it's plainly superior: +2 to attack, saves, skills for everyone will be better than what the animal companion does, +2 to armor class will be better protection, flight will be equal mobility, burrow will be superior mobility.


Overall:
Superior at low levels because it's too many extra spells.
Superior at all levels if you get to stockpile, especially if you get to grab off-list spells (for which there are many trivial ways to do so).
Otherwise, optimised options eventually keep pace or outpace it.

[Kurald Galain]

They also have Dreamed Secrets, so all the Wizard potions are now an option.
Your analysis suggests that Dreamed Secrets is OP, not necessarily that Herbalism is OP. Also, not every GM will allow you to worship Chthulhu, which is essentially the prereq to Dreamed Secrets.

And until level 6 the creation time of these potions is prohibitive: it's half the time of Brew Potion, meaning an hour for 1st-level potions and half a day for higher level.

[Rynjin]

Don't forget that by 9, you now have the ability to make potions of level 4+ spells, still for free.

[Kurald Galain]

Don't forget that by 9, you now have the ability to make potions of level 4+ spells, still for free.

Yes, but they function as Alchemist Extracts, meaning they do expire and cannot be sold.

It appears that herbalism still requires you to expend a spell for each extract made (just like the brew potion feat). That makes a big difference here. Still pretty OP though, in any campaign with downtime.

[Eurus]

I love the concept of being able to offload some of your spellcasting action cost to allies by giving them potions to use. It seems like an interesting way to play a healer, especially with the ability to amass a lot of extra low level spells over a bit of downtime.

I think it could probably be in the strong but not too problematic range if you just don't sell the dang things.

[Spore]

Compared to a domain and its powers, yes. But then again animal companions break action economy, so why can't Herbalism break money economy? Besides if you're playing a rather harsh economic environment, the average experienced merchant would be this (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/npc-s/npcs-cr-4/human-expert-6/).

They would know the druid has great wares, but the market for expensive potions is remarkably small outside of big cities (which in turn might turn up their nose on the sludge sampling a druid calls potions). The DM has more than enough tools to prevent a druid from stealing economy.

And still, compared to a pouncing big cat, a tripping expert large wolf or a flying animal companion herbalism is NOTHING.

[icefractal]

And still, compared to a pouncing big cat, a tripping expert large wolf or a flying animal companion herbalism is NOTHING.I wouldn't go that far, it's still very powerful.

I used this (in an intentionally OP one-shot), at 7th level (which is the build's high-point IMO, since Dreamed Secrets is online but 3rd level spells are still good), and this is what I had:

Ape Walk Climb 30' for 70m
Barkskin +3 NA for 70m
Bouncy Body 70m
Clarion Call 70m
Disguise Other 70m
Greensight 70m
Heroism +2 for 70m
Penumbral Disguise +7 Stealth in less than bright for 70m
PfEnergy 84 points, for 70m
Resist Energy 20 points for 70m
Slipstream +10' speed for 70m
Spider Climb Climb 20' (perfect) for 70m
Tongues 70m
Ablative Barrier +2 AC and convert 35 damage for 7h
Cloak of Shade 7h
Countless Eyes All-around vision for 7h
Darkvision 7h
Delay Poison 7h
Mage Armor 7h
Negate Aroma 7h
Nondetection 7h
Pass w/o Trace 7h
PfArrows 70 points, for 7h
Ward o/t Season +10' speed for 7h
Greater Magic Fang +2, 8h
Keep Watch 8h
Nature's Paths Faster overland speed, 8h
Ant Haul 14h
Water Breathing 14h
Delay Disease 1d
Endure Elements 1d
Crafter's Fortune 7dWhich is some solid buffs, no doubt. Although actually running all of them, even for just yourself, consumes considerably more potions than you get in a day, so it's only possible with significant downtime. I guess I just expected it to look more like Divine Metamagic craziness.

[Kurald Galain]

I used this (in an intentionally OP one-shot), at 7th level (which is the build's high-point IMO, since Dreamed Secrets is online but 3rd level spells are still good), and this is what I had:
While that certainly looks fun, I'd say that a lot of those buffs are ribbon abilities (e.g. clarion call), or situational enough that you could easily bring a 25-gp scroll (e.g. ant haul), or don't stack (e.g. ape walk + spiderclimb). So it's not nearly as impressive as it looks.

Still, getting mage armor + barkskin + heroism + g.magic fang for free every day is a very effective combo.

[Rynjin]

Yes, but they function as Alchemist Extracts, meaning they do expire and cannot be sold.

It appears that herbalism still requires you to expend a spell for each extract made (just like the brew potion feat). That makes a big difference here. Still pretty OP though, in any campaign with downtime.

Yeah, the ones at 4 and up require a slot; the ones at 3 and below are notably free.

Just to give you a quick reminder, 5-6 extra spell slots of levels 3 and below is a Mythic ability. Not one of the most powerful Mythic abilities, but it's equivalent to that realm.

Edit: actually it's equivalent to being slightly worse than the combined effects of THREE Mythic abilities.

At 7th level the stipulation of "Downtime" also becomes irrelevant. You can make herbal concoctions at 1/4 market price of potions (after making your free ones) in the timeframe of 1 minute. There's a token note that people might take "some convincing" to actually buy them, but you can still stockpile a lot of very cheap potions very quickly. You could even sell them at half price to entice buyers and still make bank.

None of the singular abilities involved in Herbalism are that OP, but there's a lot of minor things like that which add up.

[TotallyNotEvil]

It feels like an editing error cut out the part where you can only have a given number of potions active at once or something of the sort.

[icefractal]

At 7th level the stipulation of "Downtime" also becomes irrelevant. You can make herbal concoctions at 1/4 market price of potions (after making your free ones) in the timeframe of 1 minute. There's a token note that people might take "some convincing" to actually buy them, but you can still stockpile a lot of very cheap potions very quickly. You could even sell them at half price to entice buyers and still make bank.Downtime matters in that you can only make [Wisdom mod] potions per day. So if you're planning on heavy potion usage (say, applying the top five of the buffs listed above to a four-person party) then you need several days of downtime per one day of active adventuring.

Selling them does get completely bonkers though. In the same way that any infinite gold exploit like Salt to Flesh does, if allowed.

[Rynjin]

Downtime matters in that you can only make [Wisdom mod] potions per day.

You can make your Wis mod in potions FOR FREE everyday.

You can make as many additional potions as you can afford and time allows. The time is 1 minute, the price is 1/2 the normal crafting price (1/4 market).


Additional concoctions cost the same as creating an equivalent potion using Brew Potion. Druids can sell their herbal concoctions just as if they were potions (though NPCs unfamiliar with druidic herbalism may need some convincing before purchasing these wares).

...
Additionally, at 4th level, when the druid creates additional concoctions, she need pay only half the normal cost to create them. It takes her only half the normal time to create her concoctions, and she can create concoctions of spells from any spell list, as long as she can cast the spell.

...
Additionally, at 7th level, a druid can create any herbal concoction in 1 minute.

[icefractal]

Oh interesting, I never used that feature.
IDK how worth potions are when they're not free, even at reduced price, but it does mean you can very quickly meet any demand you have the supplies for.

[Rynjin]

Oh interesting, I never used that feature.
IDK how worth potions are when they're not free, even at reduced price, but it does mean you can very quickly meet any demand you have the supplies for.

Potions are very worth it, especially since you can make full CL, higher level ones on the cheap. A potion of Displacement usually costs 750 gp (375 to craft) and lasts 5 minutes; it also takes a full day.

You get it for free at double, triple, quadruple the duration by endgame.

You could also make additional ones at the cost of 187 gp a pop; pretty solid for 5 minutes of very good defense.

Potions higher than 3rd level are usually impossible and would be exorbitantly expensive for a consumable. A potion of Heal would normally cost 4.5k gp if it could be bought on the market. You could make one for a still hefty but much more affordable 1137 gp with a minute's time. Not likely to always be useful, but something interesting to have in your back pocket if your party ends up in a pinch and they need 4 potions of Life Bubble (a 1400 gp expenditure) RIGHT NOW.

The more interesting thing you can do is save your Druidic Herbalism "slots" for flexibility, similar to a Wizard. It essentially give you Spontaneous Casting but for every spell on the Druid list. Given a minute's time you can, for free, convert any currently prepared spell into another spell on your spell list. Realize you've stepped into a situation where that Wall of Thorns you prepared would really be better suited as a Death Ward? Bing bango bongo, you got it.

[SangoProduction]

I take it that I was not missing a mitigating factor. lol.

[Rynjin]

I take it that I was not missing a mitigating factor. lol.

No, not at all.

That said, again, I don't ban it myself. It's OP but OP in a way that isn't really disruptive with some oversight (don't let them sell the potions, for one, consider making them expire after a day).