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Shpadoinkle
2021-11-03, 11:56 AM
EDIT Forget it, everybody I've mentioned it to is telling me a stupid idea and I'm stupid, so fine, forget it.

MoiMagnus
2021-11-03, 12:46 PM
Coming from 5e, ability scores are also defined by what saving throw they allow:

Charisma protects against:
+ Possession by ghosts
+ Planar shenanigans of any kind (Banishment, Planar binding, Plane shift, Dispel evil) and similar binding mechanism (Magic circle, teleporting out of a Forcecage)
+ Any kind of "divine mandate", so Zone of Truth, Calm Emotion, Divine Word

Intelligence protects against:
+ Illusions
+ Psychic attacks

Wisdom protects against:
+ Fear, Hold person, Mind control, and all the mental effects that are neither Charisma or Intelligence.

Following that insight, I'd say that it's fair to call Charisma some sort of divine power, but I'd generalise it to any extra-planar power, not just divine. Charisma would be how much you control your "soul" and its connection to the other plane, your capacity to channel power through it, influence others, and not let yourself be bound by extra-planar influences.

Metastachydium
2021-11-03, 02:24 PM
(Interestingly enough, the Greek world χαρισμα does mean 'grace, favour'.)

Yora
2021-11-03, 04:20 PM
A charismatic leader isn't good with words or empathetic. It's one who has been gifted with divine powers.
(Of course, being good with words and empathetic is key to convince people you've been gifted divine powers with nothing to show for.)

I think ultimately, Charisma as a character stat represents the ability to present suggestions and demands in a way that people respond well to, and the ability to judge how to best appeal to individual personalities. Really not a difficult concept.

Mordar
2021-11-03, 05:13 PM
I think I am with Yora on this one.

Charisma is reflective of personality, manipulative skill, adroit personal interactions, etc...effectively social dexterity. I don't like the linkage to the divine/power source, but I understand how it seems like CHA might be more malleable than STR or DEX. Charisma also appears to be a measure of social will, as evidenced by MoiMagnus' comments. I might argue this is the ability to recognize when someone is using your own tools against you (manipulating you).

I always felt CHA was the/a key stat for Paladins because it represented their ability to effectively serve as both emissary and paragon - the knowledge and skill to impress upon others the values and virtues of the specific religion, while being unassailable to efforts to mislead, distract or tempt.

And, of course, there is the "game" side of the issue. Each stat should have benefits/penalties, and each should have game relevance (skills, saves, targets, etc).

The 6-attribute scale isn't perfect, for certain, but I mostly like the way it is laid out. I also like games with 4 stats and 10 stats. So, for your homebrew, do you feel compelled to hold to the 6 stats? If you're planning to make changes to what maps to given stats, perhaps give some thought to simply adding others?

- M

HumanFighter
2021-11-03, 05:35 PM
I once created a medieval fantasy-like system some years ago that had a certain amount of Attributes, Charisma not being one of them. And honestly, the game was fine. Did not hurt the roleplaying or overall experience of the game whatsoever. I think there was a Persuasion skill, but it did not get used very often and I think it was based off INT instead of charisma (Or you would just use money to persuade people). The game was still fun, but even so, when I create games now, I feel like there is "something missing" if I don't have the Charisma stat. Like, my set of attributes laid out here just doesn't feel complete without it.
So to make Charisma feel more "definable" I have decided that Charisma is actually more about your appearance and how well your voice sounds to people (and how loud it can be), and is basically how well you can seduce or charm NPCs. It is also used for the Social Save, which comes up sometimes if you need to save face against a Bard's Vicious Mockery attempt :smallwink:

But anyways, I have always felt that Charisma often gets sidelined for most characters. Like, unless you're a Bard, Face Rogue, Sorcerer, Paladin, Cleric, whatever, Charisma is not going to be all that useful to ya. It's not like Dexterity or Constitution, which is important for all classes. Therefore, it often gets dumped. How sad.

Tanarii
2021-11-03, 09:24 PM
I always felt CHA was the/a key stat for Paladins because it represented their ability to effectively serve as both emissary and paragon - the knowledge and skill to impress upon others the values and virtues of the specific religion, while being unassailable to efforts to mislead, distract or tempt.
Given its roots in Charisma as a leadership stat, determining how many retainers/henchmen you could have accompany your Paladin, I'd guess that it represents Paladins always being leaders of men, inspiring others to follow them.

KorvinStarmast
2021-11-08, 04:25 PM
A charismatic leader isn't good with words or empathetic. It's one who has been gifted with divine powers. (Of course, being good with words and empathetic is key to convince people you've been gifted divine powers with nothing to show for.) There is also the more technical usage of the word 'charism' - which is a divine gift. (Trying to stay away from verboten topics here).

I think ultimately, Charisma as a character stat represents the ability to present suggestions and demands in a way that people respond well to, and the ability to judge how to best appeal to individual personalities. Really not a difficult concept. Yes, it's not hard to grasp once you've been around people and see who is or isn't good a leadership.

EDIT Forget it, everybody I've mentioned it to is telling me a stupid idea and I'm stupid, so fine, forget it. OK, consider it forgotten.