Who does debuffing better? Enchanter or Diviner Wizard?

[Citadel97501]

Hello all, I was just watching a video where someone was claiming that the Enchanter Wizard, was better for a group than a critical fisher because the enchanter basically turns the party into one with Split Enchantment hold monster/person spells. This got me thinking if the Divination Wizard does this better than an Enchanter anyway, simply due to Portent being more effective since then your able to force targets into failing saves, or your party into critical hitting?

So how do you feel about the comparison between the effects?

-Split Enchantment: Improves action economy, and spell slot resources since you get an extra target for all of your key spells.
-Portent: Earlier affects (2 rather than 10), and more varied since it doesn't just do one thing.

[Kane0]

I would typically go for diviner unless youre fairly certain charms wont be countered and you are happy relying on them as a bit of a one trick pony.

[AttilatheYeon]

I would typically go for diviner unless youre fairly certain charms wont be countered and you are happy relying on them as a bit of a one trick pony.

Diviners can be countered too. Unless you mean using Portant to force a low roll. But then how many Portents are you using in 1 turn?

[Kane0]

Diviners can be countered too. Unless you mean using Portant to force a low roll. But then how many Portents are you using in 1 turn?

Sorry not as in counterspelling, as in the DM or adventure utilizing creatures that tend towards advantage or immunity vs charms (elves, gith, and so on)

[SharkForce]

Sorry not as in counterspelling, as in the DM or adventure utilizing creatures that tend towards advantage or immunity vs charms (elves, gith, and so on)

I mean, you can counter diviner too.

"hey look, it's a *third* creature".

[Yakmala]

Portent is great, right up until you run into creatures with legendary saves. If your campaign isn’t going that far, then Diviner remains pretty powerful on nights when you get good Portent rolls (never guaranteed).

[Bobthewizard]

Portent is very powerful. It guarantees on average one failed save per day. So it makes single-target save-or-suck spells better. Suggestion is my favorite for this. Banishment of course. I'll also use it to make the boss fail on my hypnotic pattern too.

Enchanter is more fun at low levels though. I use hypnotic gaze every second or third fight. It's best used when you have someone outnumbered, or on a boss while the party cleans up the minions. It saves a lot of spell slots since you disable someone with it and can't cast too many spells while you do it. Since hypnotic gaze is a charm I don't prepare a lot of charm spells until level 10 when you can twin them for free. At that point, I want Tasha's laughter and suggestion and maybe a higher level one like hold monster, but I tend to use those slots for more AOE disables.

Plus it makes for a fun character as the wizard who wants to run into melee with no weapons. It takes your action to maintain so you need to cast your big concentration spell first. I love flaming sphere with this since you can move it with a bonus action, but any buff or debuff works fine.

So while portent might be more powerful, I think hypnotic gaze and split enchantment are more fun.

[PhantomSoul]

I love Portent -- you might not know what the next day will bring you, but it's fun to use the rolls and to plan strategies accordingly. One thing I especially enjoy about portent is the versatility: I can use the dice to help another member's spell as much as my own, seal the deal with a crucial crit, bring someone up with a 20 on their Death Saving Throw, protect an ally or myself by making an attack miss, do well at that really important social interaction, force a failure against a grapple, etc.

That said, with the increasing number of Enchantment Spells, I'd be curious to try an Enchanter: Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Hold Person and Suggestion are classics, but throwing a doubled Tasha's Mind Whip makes those Second-Level Slots more interesting.

[Kurt Kurageous]

Portent is great, right up until you run into creatures with legendary saves. If your campaign isn’t going that far, then Diviner remains pretty powerful on nights when you get good Portent rolls (never guaranteed).

What qualifies as a good portent roll? For me, it was the really low rolls used to cause fails to charms. High rolls were actually less useful except for the save on contact other plane. You can't wait and replace, you have to declare the portent before the die is rolled. In a campaign to 11th, I think I had only one 20, and I used it for the barbarian's attack roll in the final boss fight.

What's awesome about the low rolls is they make you effective at low level where your DC13 is no sure thing. There's no weapon guaranteed to hit, and only a few spells. You get that guarantee at second level

Diviner really messes with a DM. Use sparingly.

[PhantomSoul]

What qualifies as a good portent roll? (...)

I find the whole range useful, even if useful for different things:
- Very low = force failures on important DCs, not being sure whether they're strong stats for the monster or not
- Low to 9 = force failures on weaker saves, often failed attacks against allies at critical moments, often force failures on grapples
- 10-high = (rarely force failures or misses,) often successful attacks at critical moments, passing a death saving throw, passing crucial concentration saving throws
- very high = force successes for allies (normally saving throws and ability checks; rarely force successful attacks)
- 20 = pop back up during a death saving throw, occasionally critical hits (mainly vs. bosses), crucial saving throw successes (but only as a last resort and if THAT important)

[MrCharlie]

Diviner is shockingly good at everything (Low rolls go to enemies, high rolls to allies, with 20's kept for death saving throw cheats), but enchanter is actually better for enchantment in specific circumstances-namely, against humanoids, and at high levels.

While diviner might be able to portent a low save for someone, enchanter has split enchantment and the ability to modify memories. Of these alter memories might be powerful against non-humanoids in the right circumstance, particularly if the DM lets you use it to remove memories from before the enchantment was cast, up to its duration (read the ability, that's not technically prohibited by the text) but the overwhelming majority of powerful enchantments are either too high level or only target humanoids to be reliable.

If, however, there are major humanoid NPCs in your campaign you can hopelessly derail the plot with a combination of charm person, alter memories, the modify memories spell, and split enchantment. If the DM is willing to roll with you, you can basically subvert entire nations in minutes. I've seen enchanters lay down these landmines via sneaking into the kings room (charm person on the guards), modifying the king and queens memory with "prophetic" dreams (modify memory), then leaving.

I've seen enchanters pull off reverse memory gambits, where they modify memory a noble to think that another noble is a threat to him (modify memory), watched as the first noble put his own assassins and countermeasures in place, then returned and used greater restoration (trickery cleric friend) to purge the modified memories. This made the the first noble look like the aggressor because he can't specify why he thinks his life is in danger anymore and he's no longer under any detectable mental influence. Oh, and he used alter memories to ensure that the noble didn't remember the conversation where his memory was modified, too.

Basically, a high level enchanter is shockingly, terrifyingly, capable of ruining peoples lives and manipulating them, if you are reasonably creative.

Now, until recently, that was the end of it. Enchanters were horrors with the ability to unmake minds but mediocre in combat-by and large their spells targeted wisdom, which is a high save, and they rarely managed to get a good disabling spell to stick. However, with the addition of psychic lance, they are also superb combat mages. Psychic lance is an 4th level enchantment spell, and incapacitates a single creature and does a boatload of damage to it. It can even work through walls if you know the targets name.

In other words, it can be used with split enchantment. Psychic lance is already an excellent spell, but targeting two creatures makes it exceptional. Plus, as an intelligence save, it is great at targeting a lot of enemies that are otherwise hard to hit. Portent may help you land a spell, if you rolled low-targeting intelligence is almost a guarantee.

Combine with split Tasha's hideous laughter for longer duration disables against low wisdom enemies and you've got a great suite of disabling spell options.

Diviners are still generally better, because at low levels their spells work and at high levels they can do more with portent than enchanters can with split enchantment (more applications), but for disabling enemies enchanters are now generally better, as long as they can learn psychic lance.

[Gignere]

Portent is great, right up until you run into creatures with legendary saves. If your campaign isn’t going that far, then Diviner remains pretty powerful on nights when you get good Portent rolls (never guaranteed).

Remember even against legendary saves, portent can still be used against checks and attack rolls that legendary saves can’t do anything about. Against one BBEG if you replace its initiative roll to something low you can effectively guarantee your whole party an extra turn which is probably more devastating than forcing one single missed save.

[Ir0ns0ul]

Portent is really effective. First time I made a Dire Troll levitate forcing a low roll and literally avoided a TPK, I realized how simple and powerful Diviners can be.

On the other hand, although Charm immunity becomes common on higher levels, at level 10 you can twin enchantment spells for free and after new books, we have amazing things like Tasha’s Mind Whip and most recent Raulothim’s Psychic Lance that offers more firepower to Enchanters. Invisibility + Hypnotic Gaze is a classic low level combination strangely not known by people; target doesn’t need to see you to be charmed, just hear is enough, and since you didn’t attack or cast a spell, you remain Invisible.

[Witty Username]

So, enchanter with hypnotic gaze and split enchantment will have more debuff to use than a diviner.
Diviner with portent will have one spell guaranteed to work, once, on one creature. In this once you will be very powerful.

I would say enchanter is better personally, if this is your thing. Diviner is better for utility and should be played with more flexibility to allow for more potent uses of portent.

[PhantomSoul]

...
Diviner with portent will have one spell guaranteed to work, once, on one creature. In this once you will be very powerful.
...

Well, potentially two (and later potentially three), knowing ahead of time whether you can expect to cause auto-succeeds or auto-fails or other. :)

[Witty Username]

Well, potentially two (and later potentially three), knowing ahead of time whether you can expect to cause auto-succeeds or auto-fails or other. :)

Or potentially 0, this is why I was saying you need to flex to your portents rather than choose it with the intention of being a debuffer.

[heavyfuel]

Diviner.

Even with mid-range Portent dice (up to a 12 or 13) you can make enemies auto-fail their save. Pair it up with stuff that doesn't allow repeated saves and you can usually take out one key enemy out of the fight whenever you decide to use your Portent.

[Gignere]

Or potentially 0, this is why I was saying you need to flex to your portents rather than choose it with the intention of being a debuffer.

Don’t use it just for saves, using it for initiative is crazy devastating and works with even mediocre rolls.

[ATHATH]

Portent is great, right up until you run into creatures with legendary saves. If your campaign isn’t going that far, then Diviner remains pretty powerful on nights when you get good Portent rolls (never guaranteed).
Unless, of course, your party is made up of 4-5 Diviners who can just brute force their way past legendary saves (over the course of 4 spells).

[Ganryu]

Imma break the mold here. I think portent can be amazing, but is a bit overhyped. What do you do with 7-14? Some monsters, that's not enough to ensure a failure, nor enough to ensure a success, so there's a fairly large chance you have a useless roll. Portent is good, but it can have bad days, and I think is less consistent than people make it out to be.

I don't think split enchantment is the best use of enchanter, but I do think it is enchantment purely for debuffing. The 2nd level ability is slept on I think.

Hypnotic GazeStarting at 2nd level when you choose this school, your soft words and enchanting gaze can magically enthrall another creature. As an action, choose one creature that you can see within 5 feet of you. If the target can see or hear you, it must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw against your wizard spell save DC or be charmed by you until the end of your next turn. The charmed creature's speed drops to 0, and the creature is incapacitated and visibly dazed.
On subsequent turns, you can use your action to maintain this effect, extending its duration until the end of your next turn. However, the effect ends if you move more than 5 feet away from the creature, if the creature can neither see nor hear you, or if the creature takes damage.
Once the effect ends, or if the creature succeeds on its initial saving throw against this effect, you can't use this feature on that creature again until you finish a long rest.

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The above affect only has one save, keeps a creature stunned as long as need be, and, importantly, isn't concentration.

Early levels, Tasha's hideous laughter, hypnotic gaze, that's two creatures out of combat.

Mid levels, banishment, hypnotic gaze, that's two-seven creatures out of combat.

Higher levels, split enchantment comes online.

Granted, getting close isn't ideal for a wizard, but misty step.

Of course, there's an option not put here, chronurgist and Graviturgist I would both put in the running. Played a weaker homebrew of chronurgist and had to stop as I was giving my GM aneurysms by just 'noping' combat. Temporal shunt is hilariously good.

[No brains]

One niche use of Enchanter wizard is to be a better-than-average fiend summoner. Hypnotic Gaze can work on a creature regardless of type, so if you use Infernal Calling or Summon Greater Demon and then immediately try to charm your summon, you can potentially force it to divulge its true name for greater success with subsequent castings.

Not to mention that Instinctive Charm synergizes with abilities that create extra expendable targets.

What really gets me about Enchanter wizard is that some of the best enchantment spells are signature non-wizard class spells. Bless, Command, Hex, Dissonant Whispers, Animal Friendship*- the list goes on. Those are all incredible picks for Split Enchantment, but it's hard to get those without multiclasses or feats.

*Not in itself a killer app of a spell, but a potent wombo combo with Polymorph.