Removing Resurrection

[Rad]

Hi to everybody; this is my first post in the homebrew board :smallsmile: I'm sorry if this subject has already been discussed but a search through the forums did not produce any results and the board rules on thread necromancy seem to imply that I should rather start a thread anew.

Countless people have probably felt that the common availability of resurrection (including raise dead etc.) is often a mood killer in a campaign whenever one wants to have personal tragedies to be involved. The Giant himself resorted to the "beings killed by the Snarl cannot be resurrected" in Soon's backstory but this solution might not be fit for every campaign. So what? Can't I just ban resurrection spells/powers/whatever and call it a day? Short answer is no.
The game is balanced (*cough cough*) having in mind that death is a disabling condition to be reversed with 5000gp and a 5th level spell. The rules about dying, including all the spells and special abilities that inflict instant death as well as massive damage and negative HP rules are not meant to completely remove a character from play, so they all need to be tuned down somehow so that they remove a character from combat without being automatically so deadly.

I'm looking for something like a d20 equivalent of the GURPS rules on negative HP (which is not hard to draft); what really bothers me is to find all the hidden ramifications in the balancing of the various d20 abilities, spells and the like and how to change them.
Is anybody interested in this?

[Skjaldbakka]

The easy solution would be to eliminate the raise dead spells in favor of spells like Delay Death and Revivification.

[Armads]

Remove massive damage rules (or make them scale off HD). Maybe make Instant -Death effects (like finger of death) reduce a target to 1d4 hp (or maybe negative 1d10-1 hp, but stable).

Alternatively, you could ban SoDs altogether, make your important NPCs or BBEGs not carry x4 crit weapons, and remove massive damage. It should make it harder for players to die, especially if you remove some of the more damaging poisons (like black lotus extract).

[Mr.Moron]

I don't like the flavor of resurrection either. I've been looking for ways to get around it without fundamentally changing the basic rules. One thing I'm going to try and implement are some spells (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63140) a character alive after a deadly event.


The intention is to be "Delay Death" on steroids. Allowing correction of even death by ability damage or nasty drain effects. "Save or Dies" simply put the subject at a large number of -health.

It still makes it fairly easy to avoid death (much easier at low levels) ,but gives a sense of needing to the save the individual rather than just having it be something trivial to be fixed later. It also has the side of effect having your magical effects dispelled potentially scary as crap, as only Lesser Guard is something you can defiantly cast on short notice.


EDIT: There are a few others ideas that I'm throwing around as well to go with this, including some new high-DC usages of the heal skill. However they aren't polished enough for public review yet.

[DracoDei]

Countless people have probably felt that the common availability of resurrection (including raise dead etc.) is often a mood killer in a campaign whenever one wants to have personal tragedies to be involved.

Pause to consider exactly what you mean by "personal tragedies"... IF you mean the occasion PC death from a planned encounter that wasn't REQUIRED to have the character perma-dead (or even a strong chance of it) then that is one thing, and the methods people are outlining are perfectly fine...

BUT if you just want (for example) a villain to be able to kill a PCs wife and have it be more than a minor inconvenience, then all you need (especially off screen) is a reasonably smart villain with minimal freedom to do the killing and/or body disposal under controlled circumstances... burn the body to ash, grind remaining bones to powder, and scatter to the winds (or drop into deep ocean, in which case burning the body first becomes slightly optional, heck even a good river will mix the ash into the silt well enough to render recovery hopeless, especially if the villain sprinkles slowly). Hey presto, it requires a 9TH level spell rather than a 5th level on to bring them back. And technically most of this can be done with resources the average 1st level commoner has access to. For higher level adventurers (who would realistically bankrupt themselves to pay the 25,000 gp plus casting costs to bring back the love of their life or whatever) you can have people making contracts with Barghests to eat the corpse (50% chance even True Res. doesn't work) this works especially well since the GM is perfectly well within his rights to fudge such a roll for the sake of the plot. If it comes up enough that it starts stretching the bounds of creditability just invent a feat that a Greater Barghest of max HD can take that bumps the chance of failure up to 90% or even 99% or even a flat our 100% chance that even True Resurrection doesn't work. Then their is always Trap the Soul if things need to happen in combat at higher levels... sure it can be reversed, but if the villain randomly teleports the gem somewhere on the Astral Plane or something that could still be a major campaign arc trying to get it back at the VERY LEAST. With no guarantees of success you can reasonably squeeze a pretty large amount of pathos out of the situation.

P.S. With the possible exception of the bit about the Barghests there is also NO reason the PCs shouldn't use these tactics against every BBEG they kill as well.

[Kyace]

The Conan RPG uses neat system to do something similar. The short answer is that no magic in the Conan world can bring back the dead, but they can bring back the 'mostly dead' (my words not theirs). You become 'mostly dead' by spending their version of action points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/actionPoints.htm) when you suffer an attack that would normally kill you. The Conan game is a d20 system that seems to handle low-magic very well, you might consider checking it out.

[shadow_archmagi]

'mostly dead' (my words not theirs).

Billy crystal's (aka Miracle Max) words, not yours.

On this note, I agree with the previously mentioned points that level 17+ clerics really arn't just wandering about tossing gold on expensive resurrections willy-nilly.

Unless you are DMing a very, very overpowered world.

[OneWinged4ngel]

Unless you are DMing a very, very overpowered world.

Well, lots of people do play FR.

[shadow_archmagi]

Well, lots of people do play FR.

FR?? Meaning? Sorry, I'm a noob here..

[Mewtarthio]

Forgotten Realms (aka Faerun), land of the epic-level bartenders.

[Rad]

the spells some of you suggested look good; however I cannot expect players to expend so many resources in those buffs just in case. I do not know about the death rates in your games but they are often not so high to justify such a continuous investment. They are very interesting for "normal" games though, so thank you for pointing them out.

The vitality point rules in UA look good, in particular the part about the saving throws to be iterated to avoid death instead of having it be automatic at -10.
I guess that the bottom line is that I'm looking for a way to get more of the grey area where someone is disabled and out of the fight but not yet dead.
What you said about Conan d20 was interesting; I take it it is Conan as in Conan the Barbarian?

[levi]

Iron Kingdoms is a setting where people simply don't com back from the dead very often. The designers of the setting handled this by removing all raise spells other than raise dead, which they moved to 9th level. They also added nasty side effects for both the caster and the character raised.

Furthermore, from an RP perspective, raising the dead is extreemly frowned apon. If the event is known about, both the caster and target of such an action will be shunned and generally considered necromancers and or infernalists, which are seen as very evil in this setting. Their are also several ways for a soul to be used up or claimed such that it cannot return to life. On the other tentacle, I don't think they really made dying that much harder, so perhaps that's not exactly what you're looking for.

Over at Tears of Blood, there's been some discussion of making raising the dead more difficult and inconvient, but I don't think we've decided on anything concrete yet. One thing we did come up with is that once you die, your heirs legally inherit your assets, which means that even if you come back, the average NPC who could afford it (nobles, the wealthy, etc.) are generally screwed. Although, PCs are less inconvienced by stuff like this as their heirs tend to be the other PCs, who are likely to play nice. We also didn't make dying any harder, so that may not really help you either.

The Avatar d20 setting got rid of raise spells (and all magic for that matter) and eliminated Save or Die effects (other than coupe de grace). Most participants have considered that to be enough of a balance, although there has been some talk about making death harder.

In BESM d20, which is based on anime and has a stated goal that important charaters only die for plot reasons, you aren't dead untill you reach negative hit points equal to your max hit points.

Death by massive damage is an optional rule and I'd suggest simply not using it if you want PCs to be a little more survivable. Then remove all the raise spells and effects, along with all save or die spells and effects. If done at the start of the campaign, removeing these spells is balanced because everyone is effected. More complicated is replacing save or die effects on the monsters that have them. Perhaps something like harm or another effect that does lots of damage, but isn't neccessarily fatal would be a good alternative.

As for the death and dying rules, I suggest checking out the variants in Unearthed Arcana. The open portion of these rules are availble online at d20srd.com and have a wide variety of options. If nothing there is to your taste, mix and match, or ask here and I'm sure we can come up with something.

[boomwolf]

The main reason bringing the dead is so easy is that DYING is so easy.

I mean, a high level sorcerer/wizard/<insert caster here> can take down small citys using only fireballs and basic metamagic.

A high level fighter can literally hack and slash hundreds of commoners without a scratch. (actually, if he has great cleave and they are all packed up tightly he can theoretically kill infinite numbers of them.)

With so many death spells around and things that you can't have ANY defense from, easy revive is a must.

On the other hand. if you take away the cheapness and make it harder to kill people, even commoners, THEN you can go on without resurrection.

[Rad]

The main reason bringing the dead is so easy is that DYING is so easy.
[...cuts stuff...]
On the other hand. if you take away the cheapness and make it harder to kill people, even commoners, THEN you can go on without resurrection.
:smallconfused: uh.... I think this is exactly what I'm doing.

Vitality points look fairly good since you have several chances to make saves and stay alive after you are brought down to 0 wound points.

The Injury rules are also nice: they guarantee that the hit that will put you out of the fight (dying state) is not the one that will kill you (unless you fail your fort save). Death effects can be ruled to make you dying automatically and you still have your fort save to count on. On the other hand it is a big variation on the d20 rules, so that really nothing is the same anymore; it would be interesting to know if anybody has playtested it. (guess I'll open a thread on it)

Banning SoD spells seems easy... they are few and it would not unbalance the game (spellcasters can still be powerful) but monster special attacks would need a more delicate treatment. I like the idea to have them equivalent to Harm even if it is not that flavorful; have them disable their target would be better IMO.

[Mewtarthio]

The main reason bringing the dead is so easy is that DYING is so easy.

I mean, a high level sorcerer/wizard/<insert caster here> can take down small citys using only fireballs and basic metamagic.

A high level fighter can literally hack and slash hundreds of commoners without a scratch. (actually, if he has great cleave and they are all packed up tightly he can theoretically kill infinite numbers of them.)

With so many death spells around and things that you can't have ANY defense from, easy revive is a must.

On the other hand. if you take away the cheapness and make it harder to kill people, even commoners, THEN you can go on without resurrection.

The average commoner won't get raised anyway. They could drop like wheat before a thresher's scythe, and it wouldn't make any difference to the game balance. The important thing is whether or not PCs and significant NPCs can drop dead easily. Save-or-dies make that very likely, so easy resurrection is introduced to compensate for occasional bad rolls.

EDIT: For the spells themselves, you could look at a few psionic powers. They do a fairly good job of not slaying instantly. For instance, there's an effect that allows a Fort save, and failure means you die in a few weeks without treatment.

[BisectedBrioche]

What about just giving whoever needs to do the deed the ability to cast this (or something similar) and be on your way;

End Existance
Necromancy [Death]
Level: Cl9, Wiz9
Components: V, S, M, F, XP
Casting Time: 12 hours
Range: Touch
Target: One helpless living creature
Duration: 12 hours
Saving Throw: Caster level + 20

This is a dangerous spell used only by the most evil of casters, and against the most dangerous enemies. A victim is restrained, poisoned or otherwise rendered helpless and placed inside a circle large enough to accomodate them, the circle is drawn using a special ink which costs 10,000 gp. The caster then holds the focus in one hand and touches the victim with the other and begins the spell by speaking the words for twelve hours. At this point the spell is cast and the XP is drained from the caster. If the victim is moved or the caster interupted in this time then the spell fails.

Over the next 12 hours the victim begins to become sick and weak (they take a -1 cumalative penalty to all scored every hour and are treated as nausiated). The caster must find a willing creature (an animal with an attitude of helpful or a charmed creature is treated as willing) and draw symbols on it using a speacial oil (500gp). After 12 hours the victim is instantly killed and their body turns into a bloody mess of bones, they will not pass on to the afterlife, they may not be ressurected and no longer exists in any way or form. The willing creature is slain but may be ressurected as normal is the caster so wishes. Killing the caster or the willing creature ends the spell, killing the victim prevents the spell from taking effect as long as they are not ressurected before the spell's duration ends.

Components: speacial inks (10,000gp), speacial oils (500gp), 10,000xp, one willing creature
Focus: A prized personal possession of the target

[Triaxx]

I was asked to do this for a campaign, and had the brilliant idea of adding a time limit depending on which spell it was. Raise dead had twelve hours. Reincarnation had no time limit. Resurrection was twenty-four hours, and True Resurrection was fourty-eight hours. Only NPC's had these spells, and finding a Druid was sufficiently difficult as to justify the lack of a time limit. Plus you didn't need the actual body of the character. Just their soul-stone pendant.

On the other hand, I altered Reincarnation. Not only could you potentially comeback as another species, but mess up the roll, and you came back as another gender. Even for female, odd for male. All sorts of fun.

[Skelengar]

a time limit? For how long you have to use it after you die before is useless? Or how long you stay alive?

[Triaxx]

Sorry, a time limit on how long you can be dead before the spell fails to work.

The soul stone is also a handy trick if you make it a fairly long and involved process to restore a character. Bind each character to a stone, so that upon death the soul is returned to the stone. Somewhere like FR you need the blessing of the God of the Dead, but it's rarely that hard to obtain. By locking the stones in a vault, or giving them to the benefactor of the quest (King, Local Magistrate) to keep them safe, means it's hard to loose a PC permanently, but requires quite a bit of effort to restore. First you have to get the stone, then have the ritual performed, and have another stone made.

This still leaves open for NPC's to die. And without a Soul Stone, it's even harder.

[EvilElitest]

Well, lots of people do play FR.

Ugg, over done Sterotype, FR really doesn't have all that many high level clerics, at least to the point that they will rez every single person that dies.
from,
EE

[TheGrimace]

This seems like it would work well with my spellcaster nerf too.

I'm planning on making the progression for full casters akin to that of the bard, and make a bards like that of a Ranger.

So, Raise Dead, a 6th level spell, will be one of the best spells in the game!

[Skelengar]

Triaxx, that sounds really interesting. You should post the deatials in your own topic.

[Triaxx]

I think I will. *wanders off to dig through pile of papers*

[Abzug]

Well, we play with some other rules to help with the instant death type of stuff. First off, we do play in FR, but we play that our characters are hero's. Therefore they do heroic stuff, and for the sake of a good story they are not as easy to kill as a commoner. To this end, we have two rules.

First, we play that you don't die at -10 hit points... you die at - CON hit points. So if you're the fighter with a 20 con, you don't die until -20 hit points.

The second house rule is "The 1 HP Rule" where by any attack that would blast you from your current health into negative or dead, instead puts you at 1 HP. This will typically force somebody from our group to disengage combat. If they don't, often times they get blasted on the next round... but at least they have a chance to survive if they fail a save or happen to run into a really nasty bad guy.

I should also point out, that in our running of FR, clerics are not given raise dead or rez spells when they pray for them unless they undergo some type of quest. Our party had to go through an entire series of adventures just so our cleric could have ONE raise dead spell memorized... and it has to stay memorized. If he tries to scribe it to a scroll, the spell will be lost and he'll be punished by his deity.

You might just look to some theme stuff and make changes to how and when clerics receive their spells. After all, they are granted by the deity. If the deity knows that the party is about to encounter a bunch of fire bugs or whatever, she may ignore the spell request and just give the cleric his spells for the day.