The level 20 rogue

[Emperor Demonking]

What would you do to make the level 20 rogue's last level better.
If they weren't made better, what would you recomend a level 19 rogue to go into if only core.
If they weren't made better, what would you recomend a level 19 rogue to go into if not only core.

[Reinboom]

Level 20 Rogue to make better: Anything but Rogue.

Core options: Ranger (Favored Enemy, 2 good saves), Fighter (Bonus Feat), Barbarian (Fast Movement, Rage, probably best bet), or Cleric (Domain Abilities, Very minor spellcasting utility, 2 good saves- though, loses a point of BAB).
A number of random prestige classes.

Noncore Options: Swordsage or Warblade (5th level maneuvers, each having their own merits by then, best bet), Beguiler (Spell Utility, skills), Dragon Shaman (2 good saves, able to fast heal party up to half between each fight - though - not that important), Duskblade (Doesn't lose BAB point, minor utility, 2 good saves).
A very high number of prestige classes.

[Armads]

Give it another Special ability?

[Hawriel]

I always thought another special ability pick would be fitting. Or a some kind of one shot kill ability.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Mebbe something along the lines of savvy rogue, but a WHOLE lot better?

[SadisticFishing]

Well taking 5 levels of a full BAB class would give you another attack, but lose you more Rogue levels. It's what I'd do :P

[The White Knight]

4 levels, actually.

[JaxGaret]

You can give it pretty much any capstone that is modified from existing capstones of other rogue-ish classes.

Make a new list of abilities called "Special Capstone Ability" for the Rogue to select from at level 20.

[TheLogman]

EDIT: OH sorry, this is Gaming Forum.

Umm, Fighter would be nice, additional Bab is always helpful, and you can sneak attack with more and better weapons. Druid gives you an animal companion, which would let you set up flanks easier. Ranger can help get more bonuses when fighting, because of Favored enemy.

[Nowhere Girl]

What would you do to make the level 20 rogue's last level better.

Level up to a level 21 rogue and gain another level of sneak attack and an epic feat?

[mabriss lethe]

PrC that will always be useful

Chameleon (from Races of Destiny?)

More levels than just a single dip are probably better if you go this route, but you pick up the ability to mimic some of the basic functions of the meat & potatoes classes with just a single level

[Mewtarthio]

PrC that will always be useful

Chameleon (from Races of Destiny?)

More levels than just a single dip are probably better if you go this route, but you pick up the ability to mimic some of the basic functions of the meat & potatoes classes with just a single level

Plus you get a floating Bonus Feat.

[Skjaldbakka]

You could give the rogue Hide in Plain Sight and Death Attack. While you are at it, add Poison Use. Putting these at level 20 is kinda silly, but those three things ought to be in the rogue base class, not exclusively PrC.

[ZeroNumerous]

You could give the rogue Hide in Plain Sight and Death Attack. While you are at it, add Poison Use. Putting these at level 20 is kinda silly, but those three things ought to be in the rogue base class, not exclusively PrC.

So you mean make the rogue take levels in Assassin? :smallconfused:

[Skjaldbakka]

no, I mean that those assassin abilities ought to be part of the rogue base class, at least as a selectable special ability. The first part of the OP was about changing the rogue class.

[xanaphia]

I would get 1 level in barbarian. d12 HD, +1 BAB, Rage (when you sneak attack), fast movement.

[TheOOB]

Sneak Attack on critical immune foes? That is one of a rogues biggest weaknesses.

[Hunter Noventa]

Sneak Attack on critical immune foes? That is one of a rogues biggest weaknesses.

There are already a handful of alternate class features that address this fairly well I'd say.

I'd say at the least another Special Ablity pick, or perhaps allt he special abilities they did pick get improved somehow. Like if they took Improved Evasion, they get +4 to reflex saves, or if they took Slippery Mind they gain Mettle.

[Hawriel]

I like how this thread is about suggesting cap stones for the rogue, or little alterations to the class ingeneral. Natualy all the little power gamers out there clame it sucks and you need to be a warblade or fighter, ranger druid.

[Skjaldbakka]

I like how this thread is about suggesting cap stones for the rogue, or little alterations to the class ingeneral. Natualy all the little power gamers out there clame it sucks and you need to be a warblade or fighter, ranger druid.

No one has made the claim that rogues suck. It annoys me that you that rangers are better at stealth than rogues (they get HIPS). It annoys me that that you have to PrC to get poison use and death attack.

It annoys a significant number of people that the last level of rogue is a dead level. You don't have to be a powergamer to see that.

All of those are just annoyances. Rogue is still a good class, and is one of the best in terms of balance, because it does what it does really well, and doesn't do anything else.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The rogue doesn't suck. It is exactly as powerful as it should be at every level, even if you do take 20th, which is one of the weakest out there. The problem is, casters are unbalanced. The rogue is fine.

[Townopolis]

HiPS.

They really should have HiPS, really really.

[Skjaldbakka]

The rogue doesn't suck. It is exactly as powerful as it should be at every level, even if you do take 20th, which is one of the weakest out there. The problem is, casters are unbalanced. The rogue is fine.

No one is saying that rogue sucks.

It is just annoying that the last level of the class is dead.

Hmm, I remember saying this recently.

[Kantolin]

To be fair, it's a little difficult to maintain 8+int skill points if you don't go with rogue for your last level. Dropping down to 6+int may be irritable for a skill monkey.

[Curmudgeon]

What would you do to make the level 20 rogue's last level better. Without being overpowering, the most reasonable suggestion I can think of would be Extraordinary Hide in Plain Sight -- the version used in the Dark Creature Template, which still requires cover/concealment.

If they weren't made better, what would you recomend a level 19 rogue to go into if only core. Shadowdancer, for the Supernatural HiPS.

If they weren't made better, what would you recomend a level 19 rogue to go into if not only core. Still Shadowdancer. Being able to Hide, while being watched, and with no cover/concealment, is awesome.