What would yo play in a group with a Moon Druid, Twilight Cleric and Chronurgy Wizard

[Wasp]

Hi everyone!

Assume you are playing the 4th pc in a 4-pc-party, where the three other characters are a Moon Druid, a Twilight Cleric and Chronurgy Wizard - what would you play in this group to fill the gaps (also assuming you only know the subclasses and nothing else about the other characters and you are starting at level 3 with normal point buy, and Tasha, multiclassing and feats allowed)?

I assume a good choice maybe a CHA Skill Monkey, so maybe an Eloquence Bard?

What do you think?

[Petelo4f]

Hi everyone!

Assume you are playing the 4th pc in a 4-pc-party, where the three other characters are a Moon Druid, a Twilight Cleric and Chronurgy Wizard - what would you play in this group to fill the gaps (also assuming you only know the subclasses and nothing else about the other characters and you are starting at level 3 with normal point buy, and Tasha, multiclassing and feats allowed)?

I assume a good choice maybe a CHA Skill Monkey, so maybe an Eloquence Bard?

What do you think?

Sorcadin with a 1 lvl dip in hexblade to make it sad. 6 Levels of Vengeance Paladin, 1-2 Levels of Hexblade, 12-13 Levels of Sorcerer. Max out the CHA for good social skills and your AMAZING lvl 6 aura, Hexblade lets you use Cha for your attacks, and you will be able to Nova down anything super threatening that escapes the spells of your compatriots. Your Charisma will make the concentration of your allies better even (Aura will add to their saves including Concentration checks) and you provide the damage output that the party somewhat lacks otherwise.

[jaappleton]

Swords Bard.

Nobody has expertise in anything, nobody is able to zig zag in and out of combat with speed. A Rogue or Monk could also do this, for sure, but neither are Charisma based (Rogue COULD be), but I'd definitely go Bard over Rogue here ten times out of ten. The spellcasting is going to help tremendously since the Druid can't cast while Wild shaped, and it frees up the Wizard and Cleric to do what they want with their spells.

And nobody is a party face, or has Extra Attack.

Swords Bard, absolutely. Especially in a party with other casters, if you're the only one WITHOUT casting, you're likely going to feel left out when it comes to creative problem solving.

And the spell combos! You lay down a Hypnotic Pattern so the Wizard can follow up with Fireball, ensuring they all fail their saves?

[nickl_2000]

Were it me, I would play a Githyanki Aberrant Mind Sorcerer. It doesn't fit the role needed in the party as much (as in a skill monkey), but with all the new feats and spells making a caster who focuses on telekinesis and psychic is just a fun idea.

At level 4 you take the telekinetic (cha) feat to round out your charisma to 18 and get some more goodies.

[jaappleton]

Were it me, I would play a Githyanki Aberrant Mind Sorcerer. It doesn't fit the role needed in the party as much (as in a skill monkey), but with all the new feats and spells making a caster who focuses on telekinesis and psychic is just a fun idea.

At level 4 you take the telekinetic (cha) feat to round out your charisma to 18 and get some more goodies.

On the opposite spectrum of this play style, but incredibly similar in the theme of psionics, Gem Dragon Psi Warrior Fighter. I just helped a fellow player at my table make one and it looks fun as all heck. He took Gift of the Gem Dragons to have a decent Reaction with even more forced movement.

[Ralanr]

Depending on my stats: Either a Ancestors barbarian or a psi warrior fighter.

I'd also suggest armorer artificer but having played one I can safely say it's not my thing.

Ancestors barbarian to give enemies disadvantage from hitting my squishy teammates. Psi warrior fighter to pull them away from danger and keep them in the back where they want to be (since forced movement doesn't cause attacks of opportunity).

Course this is what I'd play, because this party isn't actually that squishy. I like playing frontliners and like to provide some utility but don't like being a spellcaster (it's why I pretty much only use my slots for smiting as a paladin).

[Amnestic]

Dao Genie Warlock, Pact of the Chain.
Charisma-focused, ranged damage, with some spike growth shenanigans for good measure, and an invisible scout familiar so that we can plan our attack strategy.

Race isn't really important for it so you've got free reign, and it's not a particularly feat-heavy concept (though you might want to grab Medium Armour prof) just to avoid being a total squish.
Top race picks for me might be:
Earth Genasi: Flavourful mostly. PWT is already covered by the druid but this gives you an extra option if they want to use their Concentration elsewhere.
Half-Elf: Pure power. Extra +1 and two floating skill profs. Lets you grab Elven Accuracy for your eldritch blast beams.
Halfling: Lucky. Ride your moon druid as a mount.
Dragonborn: Refluff your patron from genie to dragon, have a distant relative as a patron! With Dao being bludgeoning damage it's not tied to any one 'dragonflight' explicitly, but gem works best, probably.

[RogueJK]

The party appears to need:
A) additional melee
B) a Face
C) a Scout
D) a Skill Monkey

So to cover those bases, that means a melee character with a high CHA and DEX, and a number of skill proficiencies (plus preferably Expertise).

My first thought would be either a Swashbuckler Rogue if you want more melee damage, or Swords Bard if you want spellcasting.

Or perhaps even a Fey Wanderer Ranger with a high WIS in place of CHA, since they get to add +WISMOD to Face skills, and have additional skills and Expertise.


Could also meet those criteria with something like a DEX/CHA-focused Paladin, Hexblade Bladelock, or Battlemaster Fighter, if you go with a race like Half Elf that grants additional skills, or VHuman/CLineage with the Skill Expert feat.

[PhantomSoul]

Swords Bard.
...

And the spell combos! You lay down a Hypnotic Pattern so the Wizard can follow up with Fireball, ensuring they all fail their saves?

I'll second that Bard gets potent casting, but Hypnotic Pattern won't make them fail their saves (Hypnotic Pattern gives Incapacitated and Charmed, neither of which forces failures like Paralysed does).

[RogueJK]

Hypnotic Pattern won't make them fail their saves (Hypnotic Pattern gives Incapacitated and Charmed, neither of which forces failures like Paralysed does).

And Hypnotic Pattern's effect on an enemy ends when they take damage. So that's a doubly poor combo.

Save the Fireball for either before the Hypnotic Pattern, or after it has ended. Or just place it so it only affects those enemies that made their save against Hypnotic Pattern.

[jaappleton]

I'll second that Bard gets potent casting, but Hypnotic Pattern won't make them fail their saves (Hypnotic Pattern gives Incapacitated and Charmed, neither of which forces failures like Paralysed does).

Incapacitated doesn't make them fail dex saves?

Huh. My table's been playing that one incorrectly, if so.

[RogueJK]

Incapacitated doesn't make them fail dex saves?


No. Incapacitated only makes it so that they cannot take Action/Reactions. Hypnotic Pattern also separately renders their speed 0.

So they're unable to move away and unable to take Actions, but RAW they can still attempt saves.

[nickl_2000]

Incapacitated doesn't make them fail dex saves?

Huh. My table's been playing that one incorrectly, if so.

Paralyzed, Petrified, Stunned, and Unconscious automatically fail.

Restrained gives disadvantage on them.

[KorvinStarmast]

Half Elf Paladin, Oath of Vengeance, Criminal Background. (Half elf to get a few more skills).

[jaappleton]

No. Incapacitated only makes it so that they cannot take Action/Reactions. Hypnotic Pattern also separately renders their speed 0.

So they're unable to move away and unable to take Actions, but RAW they can still attempt saves.

Unable to move, but can make a Dex save without penalty...

Ever notice those times RAW really doesn't make sense?

[Spiritchaser]

Yuan Ti ancestral guardian echo knight MC with sentinel.

You need a tough sticky melee tank for scary foes? Check (beardruid will fall off in effectiveness pretty quickly in this role. You’ll be ok at 3 but not for long)
You want someone with high mobility? Check
You want solid melee damage? Check (Not top tier but solid)
You wand a scout? Ooh heck ya! (Though squirreldruid is pretty good at this too)

You need a face? Ok this one’s a a stretch but stay with me here I have actually done this and it… kind of didn’t suck THAT badly… with yuan ti magic resistance and eventually res wis, it’s enough to have a not terrible Cha. Take persuasion. It’s workable. Ish.

[Unoriginal]

Unable to move, but can make a Dex save without penalty...

Ever notice those times RAW really doesn't make sense?

It makes sense as the rules of the game. Hypnotic Pattern hindering DEX saves would mean either a) it's too strong for its level or b) they make it an higher level spell.

Neither are something the writers wanted, most likely, due to the history of the spell as accessible early.

[jaappleton]

It makes sense as the rules of the game. Hypnotic Pattern hindering DEX saves would mean either a) it's too strong for its level or b) they make it an higher level spell.

Neither are something the writers wanted, most likely, due to the history of the spell as accessible early.

We're veering off topic, but I'm questioning how Incapacitated, which renders your speed to 0, doesn't also in some sort of way hinder your Dex saves.

Your speed is zero and you can't move, which also means if you're somehow prone it means you can't stand up... So with a zero speed, you're able to somehow avoid a fireball? Huh?

Slow. Change it from Hypnotic Pattern to Slow, which Bards get since Tasha's.

Slow. There.

[PhantomSoul]

Unable to move, but can make a Dex save without penalty...

Ever notice those times RAW really doesn't make sense?

I think it has surprised every group I'm in at one point or another!

[KorvinStarmast]

We're veering off topic, but I'm questioning how Incapacitated, which renders your speed to 0, doesn't also in some sort of way hinder your Dex saves. You can still dodge (reflexively, which is what dex saves represent; making that save versus fire ball does not create movement from current position).
What you can't seem to do is take an action or a reaction, since you are so interested in those pretty colors.

Incapacitated - An incapacitated creature can’t take actions or reactions.
I don't see that condition setting your movement to zero, like grappled does.

Grappled = A grappled creature’s speed becomes 0, and it can’t benefit from any bonus to its speed. Objections not sustained.

Your speed is zero and you can't move, which also means if you're somehow prone it means you can't stand up... So with a zero speed, you're able to somehow avoid a fireball? Huh? If you are prone, and a fireball goes off, maybe the earth is protecting you from half of the damage. :smallwink:

Slow. Change it from Hypnotic Pattern to Slow, which Bards get since Tasha's.
Slow is a fine spell.
I love using it as a support bard.
Hypnotic pattern covers an area which may get more than six creatures, and it may not.
It's a great spell in a lot of situations, particularly when doing damage may not be your foremost concern.
(As you are no doubt aware, the game isn't just about DPR).

And with all of that said:
If I had to pick between one or the other as I go out adventuring with the party, at levels 5 or above, I think I'll choose slow over Hyp Pattern, but not by much. I have used both of them a lot over the past year. (Bard is now level 17 and I still use them both, frequently). But slow does get a save after each turn so it eventually wears off.

It makes sense as the rules of the game. Hypnotic Pattern hindering DEX saves would mean either a) it's too strong for its level or b) they make it an higher level spell. Neither are something the writers wanted, most likely, due to the history of the spell as accessible early. I'll drop a notional five bucks to bet that this informed the decision on what incapacitated does, and not just for this spell.


Hypnotic Pattern
3rd-*‐‑level illusion
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 120 feet
Components: S, M (a glowing stick of incense or a crystal vial filled with phosphorescent material)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
You create a twisting pattern of colors that weaves through the air inside a 30‐‑foot cube within range. The pattern appears for a moment and vanishes. Each creature in the area who sees the pattern must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the creature becomes charmed for the duration. While charmed by this spell, the creature is incapacitated and has a speed of 0. The spell ends for an affected creature if it takes any damage or if someone else uses an action to shake the creature out of its stupor.
Also, slow works against creatures who are immune to the charmed condition. Hypnotic pattern charms a creature.

[RogueJK]

We're veering off topic, but I'm questioning how Incapacitated, which renders your speed to 0, doesn't also in some sort of way hinder your Dex saves.

Incapacitated doesn't render your speed 0. It merely renders you unable to take Actions/Reactions. Normally, someone that is Incapacitated can still use their Movement. They just can't Act.

It's just that Hypnotic Pattern also has a separate debuff effect that also renders their speed 0, in addition to Incapacitation.

But neither of those two effects (incapacitating someone, or setting someone's movement speed to 0) involves auto-failing DEX saves. That's the purview of different, more powerful conditions like Paralyzed/Petrified/Stunned, which do both of those prior effects (remove actions and set speed to 0) but then also add on additional debuff effects like auto-crits and auto-fails.

Then there are other less powerful conditions, like Grappled, that also set someone's speed to 0. But if you made it so that anyone that was Grappled auto-failed DEX saves "because 0 speed means they can't move/dodge", that would entail a big boost to the power of Grappling.


Hypnotic Pattern is already somewhat overpowered for its level, thanks to it's powerful debuff effect plus it not allowing subsequent saves after the initial failure. It's a true Save-or-Suck, whereas most other debuffs allow subsequent save attempts. Adding in even more debuff effects like auto-failing DEX saves would make it even more overpowered.


And there's still the fact that in just about every situation you'd rather have a mob of creatures hypnotized and then focus fire to pick them off one by one while the others can't act, rather than than hitting them with a Fireball (even an auto-failed one) and allowing them all to act again as normal, since Hypnotic Pattern ends whenever they take damage.

[Sorinth]

I think Paladin would work best, you could use a good damage dealer and someone to really anchor the front line. No real wrong builds so pick something you haven't done before that seems fun.

[loki_ragnarock]

Beastmaster Ranger.

Of Thief Rogue.

Or Champion Fighter.

Someone's gotta buck the trend.

[sithlordnergal]

Is Xanathar's not allowed? If not I'd go for one of the following:

Battlemaster Fighter/Arcane Trickster Rogue. Take the Rogue levels fist for skills and Expertise, take the Archery Fighting style from Fighter, get yourself Sharpshooter, and turn into a machine gun. You'll be able to pump out enough damage to keep up with anything else, and you'll be the party skill monkey.

Fighter 2 / Lore Bard, the quintessential Bard right here. This nets you decent AC, another Skill Monkey, and you can be the face of the party. Bard is one of my favorite classes, and Lore Bard is up there as a favorite subclass

[Wasp]

Well, that are quite a few options! Thank you! I would love to hear more ;-) (options are fun!)

Some additional information I have gathered: The Chronurgist actually starts with a one level dip of Artificer (if that changes anything), the other two are pure builds and all are custom lineages (don't know the feats). Official sources are allowed (except Unearthed Arcana).

[Kane0]

Fey Ranger or Rune/Psi Fighter, maybe with a Rogue dip.

[arisroot]

Personally, I would go for something that improves saving throws such as a paladin or a bard with inspiration. Maybe even a paladin/Bard.

[Eldariel]

So, the party has:
- Strong CC, offensive casting and utility
- Extremely strong frontline and melee
- Incredible defenses
- Solid joker options to solve just about anything
- Int/Wis classes (likely Dex/Str too) with Guidance/Enhance Ability to ace skill issues from level 3 on

What it doesn't have:
- Long range attackers
- Cha classes

Given that, I think you definitely want a Sharpshooter build of some kind and a Cha-caster. The other option is Sorlock but ultimately, I think you'll get more out of simple:
Vuman Swords Bard 20
Crossbow Expert + Sharpshooter

It's not quite as powerful as the other characters (all of them have top tier subclasses for their respective niches), but it's powerful within its niche and it fits a slot the party doesn't yet have filled. Basically, you become a sharpshooting machine and use your maneuvers for extra damage on your shots. Depending on the circumstance, Defensive Flourish and Slashing Flourish are both quite useful though there's occasionally a time to use Mobile Flourish as well (e.g. for chasing: note that Crossbow Expert makes you just fine in melee as well).

It covers skills and new skills quite well too and it also brings competitive spellcasting to bear (not quite as good as Lore Bard and lacks the utility of Eloquence Bard but I think in this case you want what Swords Bard brings a bit more). Eventually Magical Secrets will unlock the best buffs for you and up until that point you'll be more than fine as a caster CC machine.

[jaappleton]

There is another option.

Its very fun.
Its a bit cheesy.
Its MAD.
It comes online a little late.

But very fun. Maybe this is more for a one shot sort of thing?

Anyways, here it is

Undead Warlock 1
Fey Wanderer Ranger X

Once per turn, while using the Form of Dread, a Warlock can try to Frighten someone. You don't necessarily want enemies to fail this particular save.

Why? Because that Frightened only lasts until the next turn.

So that you can use Fey Wanderer 7's ability to have someone make a save, and if they fail, it lasts for one minute. Yes they get a save to get out of it each turn, but you get to choose charmed or frightened now, and it can be VS any target in range, not the target you hit while using Form of Dread.

For not coming online until 8th level, and being quite MAD as far as your stat spread, this is likely more for a one shot or something. But still its a fun one to do.

[Bobthewizard]

Paladin works, swords bard works, lots of other viable options here so far.

It was mentioned above, but I would recommend paladin 2/ swords bard X. With only one other character that wants to get in melee, a swords bard might be too squishy. But a paladin wouldn't have the skills this party needs.

Swords bard on paladin 2 gets you more spell slots to fuel your smites, you can stack flourishes on smites, and at level 6 you get extra attack. Plus you are almost a full caster, just two levels behind.

This build is a little behind the power curve at levels 5-7, but not by much and otherwise it's great.

[Eldariel]

It was mentioned above, but I would recommend paladin 2/ swords bard X. With only one other character that wants to get in melee, a swords bard might be too squishy. But a paladin wouldn't have the skills this party needs.

Hm, Twilight Cleric and Moon Druid are both more than willing to get into melee, not to mention any possible summons and animated dead from the Chronurgist/Cleric/Druid. I'm not sure this is an actual problem. Of course, dipping Hexblade 1 or Moderately Armored for shield proficiency and the Shield-spell would more than address any durability concerns...but I think what this party lacks is range, not melee.

[Bobthewizard]

Hm, Twilight Cleric and Moon Druid are both more than willing to get into melee, not to mention any possible summons and animated dead from the Chronurgist/Cleric/Druid. I'm not sure this is an actual problem. Of course, dipping Hexblade 1 or Moderately Armored for shield proficiency and the Shield-spell would more than address any durability concerns...but I think what this party lacks is range, not melee.

I've only played with one twilight cleric and they tend to hang back just where their aura reaches the melee fight, and moon druids have some levels where they aren't the best at melee. I guess I thought 4 full casters would be pretty good at dealing with ranged threats. I thought smite, with bard spell slots and swords bard's extra attack would give good nova damage to this party. But if the OP thinks range is more of an issue, then hexblade might be be better than paladin. For hexblade 2/bard X I usually wouldn't go swords since you'll be using agonizing blast. So that could support his eloquence bard idea.

[Wasp]

I don't really know yet if both the Twilight Cleric and the Druid will go Melee... I like both being in the fray and in the distance.

But wouldn't a Valor Bard be better for an Archer than a Swords Bard? When thinking about the Swords Bard I am thinking more Melee?

I mean a Hexblade Bard seems very tempting, but I also like the idea of going Pal. Tough choices to be made.

[Bobthewizard]

In general, valor bard is good at buffing others but not so much attacking with a weapon. They make for a great ranged caster bard since they get inherent medium armor and shield proficiency, but that's not needed with a hexblade dip. If you wanted to use a different warlock pact, or go straight bard, then valor would be a good choice. But they don't have any way to add damage to their attacks. So while you lose the dueling damage, swords bard is still probably a better archer with a bow or crossbow. Crossbow expert is decent on a swords bard since their flourishes don't use the bonus action that regular bardic inspiration does.

[Eldariel]

I don't really know yet if both the Twilight Cleric and the Druid will go Melee... I like both being in the fray and in the distance.

But wouldn't a Valor Bard be better for an Archer than a Swords Bard? When thinking about the Swords Bard I am thinking more Melee?

I mean a Hexblade Bard seems very tempting, but I also like the idea of going Pal. Tough choices to be made.

Frankly, Valor just isn't all that good. It's rarely useful to add Inspiration to damage compared to saving it for a hit boost (generally turning a miss into a hit is gonna do more damage than the damage boost die) and Inspiration to AC, while occasionally useful, comes at a Reaction cost which can be a significant issue when there's stuff like Shield flying around. Plus your party HP durability with Twilight Cleric is already taken care of; you could all be immortal for all it matters (if you wished to further this aspect, play Peace Cleric for the ultimate nonsense bull**** splitting damage evenly and then regenerating any lost temporary HP next round again making nobody take damage until everyone's temporary HP is burnt through). Like, Valor gets armor and shield proficiencies, which is nice, but the Inspiration is bad and the Extra Attack is kind of a trap unless you build around it. It's mostly for a caster who uses an armor and a shield but in that case it lacks both, a full level 3 ability and a level 6 ability and if you go for the weapon build, Swords is just better because of Flourishes.

Yeah, Swords doesn't get Archery style which does suck (you can pick it up with Fighting Initiate if you care; it's not a bad use of your level 8 ASI all told if you took Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert), but Flourishes are really good post-5 where you get SR recovery for them, and getting free Dueling does mean you're somewhat scary in melee too (though inability to wear a shield does make this less impressive).

[RogueJK]

In addition to the points above, don't let the ability name fool you... The Swords Bard's "Blade Flourishes" still apply to ranged weapon attacks. (And to melee weapon attacks with non-bladed weapons as well.)

[Wasp]

I think I'll go with the Hexblade Swords Bard. If we have the rule that a custom lineage can count as Elf for Elven Accuracy, would the custom lineage be better for this kind of build compared to VHuman?

[ScoutTrooper]

Padlock Elf (High over Wood; Drow only if CoS or lots of dungeon'ing ahead)

Start Paladin, go 1 Warlock(Pact of Blade), Then mix it up or just go the next 5 in one or the other for Extra Attack. Once that's picked up, your goal is 6 Paladin / 14 Warlock

You want Eleven Accuracy and Great Weapon Master feats, max that CHA score.

[Eldariel]

I think I'll go with the Hexblade Swords Bard. If we have the rule that a custom lineage can count as Elf for Elven Accuracy, would the custom lineage be better for this kind of build compared to VHuman?

If you're going Hexblade, definitely. This lets you max out your Cha score ASAP and get some decent returns out of the half-feat (though Elven Accuracy isn't really THAT good for a Swords Bard unless your party enables you or you build towards e.g. Darkness + Blindfighting or Devil's Sight with feats).

[jaappleton]

I think I'll go with the Hexblade Swords Bard. If we have the rule that a custom lineage can count as Elf for Elven Accuracy, would the custom lineage be better for this kind of build compared to VHuman?

It's a solid build. Hexblade's Curse to help lay down some damage, and it nets you the Shield spell which can be cast with Bard spell slots.

Hope you have fun with it!

[BoutsofInsanity]

Honestly, looking at the comp I would go the following

Rogue 3 / Paladin the rest. Focusing on Dexterity, Constitution, and Charisma.

I would get the much needed skills and expertise, have mobility and such. But also I would get my charisma to come into play as the party face.

So some sort of Bow and Knife Dexadin is where I would end up. OR a Swashbuckling Dexadin who fights with a Rapier and wit.

[RogueJK]

I'm not seeing the allure of the 3 levels of Rogue.

A Paladin already has a solid way to boost their damage output through Smites, spells, and Dueling Fighting Style.

Stereotypical Rogue skills can be picked up through class/race/background/feats. Even Expertise is available from Bard levels or the Skill Expert feat.

Cunning Action-style combat mobility can be achieved through race (Goblin) or feat (Mobile).

And none of those require delaying your Paladin abilities by taking Rogue levels. (Even going the Bard multiclass route is more viable, thanks to the continued scaling of your spell/smite slots.)


So while Dexadin is a solid option if you want to go that route, I'd skip the Rogue/Paladin mix in favor of something like a Goblin Dexadin, a Mobile Dexadin, or a DEX-based Bardadin.