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Emperor Demonking
2007-11-18, 07:49 AM
1: Craft
2; Proffession
3: Mount
4: Wall of iron
5: That balor trick

Any more?

UserClone
2007-11-18, 07:52 AM
Wow. Are we the only two people in the Playground right now? :smallsmile: Because you just created about 6 new threads.

Neon Knight
2007-11-18, 07:55 AM
There is this thing called adventuring, whereupon you enter ancient, decrypt places in search of shiny and valuable loot.

Don't think of it as stealing. Instead, imagine yourself as the world's most heavily armed repo-man.

shadow_archmagi
2007-11-18, 08:02 AM
Actually, I have been wondering for awhile.

Given the inherent costs and time, is Crafting really worth it for money? I mean, the benefits of "Hey, I can make an epic level teacup!" are always nice, but from a purely cash-related standpoint, is Crafting viable? At level 1? At level 10? At epic?

geek_2049
2007-11-18, 08:19 AM
Are you down with OPL (Other People's Loot)?

Citizen Joe
2007-11-18, 09:58 AM
Break into green people's homes. Kill them. Take their stuff.

Tyger
2007-11-18, 10:01 AM
Fabricate FTW.

Mages make more money than they know what to do with. Its painful actually.

shadow_archmagi
2007-11-18, 10:22 AM
Just looked at fabricate and YE GODS I can see the profit on this.

Now, wizards don't even GET fabricate until level 9, which means, unless I'm confused and I probably am, they can walk up to 9 cubic feet of metal, and then go "FABRICATE!" and produce a few hundred shruikans.


Or just go up to a tree, and bam! Pile of unstrung bows.

Wraithy
2007-11-18, 10:41 AM
Diplomacy. you can guess how.

RoboticSheeple
2007-11-18, 10:49 AM
Don't forget the 5cp ladder that becomes 2 2.5sp 10 foot poles when broken in half.

shadow_archmagi
2007-11-18, 10:58 AM
But.. that.. it.. you.. why.. middle!

The sum of the parts should NEVER be greater than the whole, or else people can just spend 500 gold to buy 10000 ladders, break them all in half..

Jack_Simth
2007-11-18, 11:05 AM
Don't forget Wish (ab)use. To cast it yourself costs 5,000 xp, and can get you 25,000 gp worth of mundane stuff.

Planar Bind something to cast it as a spell-like ability for you, on the other hand, it costs you 0 xp, and can technically get you ANY MAGIC ITEM.

DM hammer should follow the second wish abuse method, though.

Mewtarthio
2007-11-18, 12:23 PM
Just looked at fabricate and YE GODS I can see the profit on this.

Now, wizards don't even GET fabricate until level 9, which means, unless I'm confused and I probably am, they can walk up to 9 cubic feet of metal, and then go "FABRICATE!" and produce a few hundred shruikans.

Or just go up to a tree, and bam! Pile of unstrung bows.

Let's not forget that Wizards explicitly condones using the spell in... creative ways (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/tt/20070522a).

shadow_archmagi
2007-11-18, 01:00 PM
Saay...

Supposing I've got an enemy with a big axe. Can I Fabricate his axe into, say, crossbow bolts, then toss a Mage Hand to snatch them over here, and then shoot him with his own axe?

Mewtarthio
2007-11-18, 01:39 PM
Technically, the spell doesn't say you can't use attended items, but I think it's implied. It's main value is that it's stronger than disintigrate against mundane materials. Plus, while you're undermining your opponent's fortifications, you can also make some very lovely statuettes.

de-trick
2007-11-18, 01:45 PM
the street corner....jks
but adventuring or stealing is the best, maybe kidnapping

mostlyharmful
2007-11-18, 01:51 PM
Hang a sign outside your frount door.

"Spellcasting for Hire. Arcane magic of low and mid potency, standerd prices. Discounts on Bulk Buys."

Have you seen the costs of getting someone to cast you a spell in the PHB? Adventuring is only for those who want to level up.

shadow_archmagi
2007-11-19, 05:19 AM
Say, can you use fabricate on multiple materials? That is, for example.. pile of wood with a pile of iron bars to make crossbows. Or does finished product have to be all one starting material?

Also, if you start with a big stack of paper, could you Fabricate an epic novel?

icefractal
2007-11-19, 05:37 AM
The best way to Fabricate things depends on how strictly the DM is enforcing the Craft rules.

If they're going by common sense, or just volume, then just turn scrap iron into shipments of masterwork equipment. Simple enough.

If they're actually using the Craft rules, then the finished product can be no more than 3x the price of the raw materials. In that case, your best bet is multi-stage crafting.


For instance, if you craft an rough gem into a cut gem, you're at 3x the original value. If you then craft that gem and some gold into a necklace, you're at 3x again - 9x the original value. So the key to massive wealth is lots and lots of steps.

To really get excessive:
1) Get some wood.
2) Wood into charcoal
3) Charcoal into rough diamonds
4) Rough diamonds into cut diamonds
5) Diamond into jewelry/artwork


Of course, if you do this to a large extent, you may as well be abusing wishes or Flesh to Salt, and should start watching out for the DM's revenge.

shadow_archmagi
2007-11-19, 06:12 AM
I just looked closer at the crafting rules...

Pay 1/3rd cost in raw materials, therefore if you have raw materials, you can only triple it.. but this is STUPID.

Paper and paint are nowhere NEAR 1/3rd the cost of a masterpiece painting!
Water is entirely free, bottles cost a few cents, but water in a bottle is worth a dollar!

Some things have MASSIVE profit margins.. bah. This is why we have DMs.

Tyger
2007-11-19, 06:17 AM
Well, with Fabricate you also have to remember that the rules do not permit you to sell things at full ticket, you can only get 1/2 the market value for them. Of course, since you are only paying for 1/3 the value in materials, you can still make profit.

Kantolin
2007-11-19, 06:19 AM
Nevermind fun little crafting flaws such as attempting to make a ball of gold taking you ten times as long as making an otherwise identical ball of silver.

Edit: Had them backwards

brian c
2007-11-19, 06:22 AM
Let's not forget that Wizards explicitly condones using the spell in... creative ways (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/tt/20070522a).

From that article:


Here's one for you wizard/rogues out there. After a successful heist, use shrink item on the snatched object and swallow it just in case you get caught and searched. Make sure you use the "clothlike composition" option and that you "take care of business" before the spell's duration expires!

Ewww...

Tyger
2007-11-19, 06:22 AM
Nevermind fun little crafting flaws such as attempting to make a ball of silver taking you ten times as long as making an otherwise identical ball of gold.


Think you have that backwards. Or is there another flaw that I am missing?

Roderick_BR
2007-11-19, 06:23 AM
Saay...

Supposing I've got an enemy with a big axe. Can I Fabricate his axe into, say, crossbow bolts, then toss a Mage Hand to snatch them over here, and then shoot him with his own axe?

Technically, the spell doesn't say you can't use attended items, but I think it's implied. It's main value is that it's stronger than disintigrate against mundane materials. Plus, while you're undermining your opponent's fortifications, you can also make some very lovely statuettes.
I could see Full Metal Alchemist-like wizards doing it...
And yes, Fabricate says nothing about objects being held. A DM could rule that a tended object allows the wielder a saving throw, like others effects do.

shadow_archmagi
2007-11-19, 06:26 AM
Fabricate his armor&weaponry into a small metal statue, then have your party bard or cleric animate it..

Or, come to think of it, fabricate his armor so that it is nigh-identical armor except with big point spikes pointing inward, and then fabricate his shoes into shackles so he trips and falls on his stomach...

Next great combat spell.

Kantolin
2007-11-19, 06:30 AM
Tyger: Er... yes. I meant that backwards, and am editing my post to fit. The logic still holds, though, that because one material is more expensive than the other, it for some reason alters the time to make.

Still, I'm glad crafting rules are around at all as a baseline. Solved an entire event a few days ago with Craft(Baking). Good times. Poor for money, though.

Riffington
2007-11-19, 04:02 PM
I just looked closer at the crafting rules...

Pay 1/3rd cost in raw materials, therefore if you have raw materials, you can only triple it.. but this is STUPID.

Paper and paint are nowhere NEAR 1/3rd the cost of a masterpiece painting!
Water is entirely free, bottles cost a few cents, but water in a bottle is worth a dollar!

Some things have MASSIVE profit margins.. bah. This is why we have DMs.

Well, you forgot the cost of advertising the water.
And if you count your painting's model as one of the raw materials...

yeah, DM can change all this, but it's a decent starting point.

shadow_archmagi
2007-11-19, 04:14 PM
Wait, the MODEL as part of the starting materials? Does that imply that a painting of a sunset would be worth three times that of THE SUN!?

F.L.
2007-11-19, 04:49 PM
I'd think the materials to make a painting would be Paper, Pigments, Paintbrush, Opium, Laudanum, years of depression, if you want to be all historic about it. Also hookers.

Alex12
2007-11-19, 05:21 PM
Step 1: Be a Shaper.
Step 2: Get to level 7. You now have access to Psionic Fabricate.
Step 3: Make lots of money.
Step 4: Use money to help you get to level 11.
Step 5: Learn Greater Psionic Fabricate.
Step 6: Profit!!! (there is no ??? step)

Finally, something psions can do better than Wizards: make tons of cash. I mean, by the time the Wizard gets to the point he can cast Fabricate once a day, the Shaper has been able manifest it a minimum of 7 times per day (46 PP base, minimum 14 Int to manifest 4th-level powers grants a 7th-level psion 7 extra PP, and Psionic Fabricate requires 7 PP to manifest) and he's been doing it for the past 2 levels, and is only 2 levels away from Greater Psionic Fabricate.

Quietus
2007-11-19, 05:41 PM
If I take a 1 lb lump of gold and use Craft (Money) to turn it into 150 gold coins (since the 1 lb lump of gold, as a 50 GP base item, is 1/3 the base price of the finished object), does it become a newly-minted 3 lbs of coins? If so, what happens if I melt them down and re-fabricate my new 3 lb nugget?

Alex12
2007-11-19, 05:45 PM
If I take a 1 lb lump of gold and use Craft (Money) to turn it into 150 gold coins (since the 1 lb lump of gold, as a 50 GP base item, is 1/3 the base price of the finished object), does it become a newly-minted 3 lbs of coins? If so, what happens if I melt them down and re-fabricate my new 3 lb nugget?
No, it doesn't work that way. I seriously doubt any sane DM would let you take Crafting(Money) and with Fabricate, the weight remains the same and 50gp is one pound of gold. If your DM does let you pull it off though, go ahead.

puppyavenger
2007-11-19, 05:57 PM
the importent question is, how are living things 1/3 or mor evaluable than perfect, lifesize statuess of living things made in priecios metals?

Alex12
2007-11-19, 06:20 PM
the importent question is, how are living things 1/3 or mor evaluable than perfect, lifesize statuess of living things made in priecios metals?

Don't think of them as people, think of them as mobile containers for souls, ripe for sacrificing.

shadow_archmagi
2007-11-19, 06:26 PM
Hmm.. why not get a job applying gold paint? I mean, via fabricate, you could stretch the gold to a nigh molecular level, coating an entire ceiling (or other thing that would be seen but NOT touched) in gold.

Jack_Simth
2007-11-19, 06:45 PM
If I take a 1 lb lump of gold and use Craft (Money) to turn it into 150 gold coins (since the 1 lb lump of gold, as a 50 GP base item, is 1/3 the base price of the finished object), does it become a newly-minted 3 lbs of coins? If so, what happens if I melt them down and re-fabricate my new 3 lb nugget?
What makes the raw materials isn't specified. Ergo, it's up to the DM - NOT YOU.

You can take Craft(Money) or some such, but the materials aren't pre-refined gold. No, you're working with impure gold ore and coal.

Sure, if you've got X pounds of refined gold, you can Fabricate coins from it (one coin per casting - it's a product not many items) but you're not using the Craft skill and costs to do so - you're just mechanically reshaping something that's pretty easy to reshape anyway.

shadow_archmagi
2007-11-19, 07:25 PM
One can easily multi-product though. All one would have to do is create the final product "Bunch of gold coins connected by exactly 1 molecule of gold so even a bug landing will cause them all to break apart into individual coins" so that, although for all practical purposes, a few hundred gold coins, still technically one object until just after casting.

Reijura
2007-11-19, 08:08 PM
The cat girls are crying in their destitute economy

shadow_archmagi
2007-11-20, 04:41 PM
Hmm.. I think the best way to make money would be to get a wizard and a cleric, have the wizard use Fabricate to create a bunch of massive masterwork statues, and then offer to sell them to the very rich.

When the very rich come, have the cleric animate the statues, murder the rich, and then keep the money. Wash the blood off and repeat.

Citizen Joe
2007-11-20, 05:21 PM
Here's the primary problem that all of these schemes have in common. There is a limited amount available to get from the sale of stuff. So it doesn't matter if you can produce a bazillion gp item, you'll only be able to get what is available. The other problem is that if you suddenly inject a mass amount of rare widgets into the economy, the value of widgets will drop rapidly (since they are no longer rare). If you literally MAKE gold coins, you will devalue the currency which is grounds for execution in some countries.

The solution is not to go for hard currency but instead for favors and credit. i.e. I'll give you a full suit of armor and weapons if you be my bodyguard for two years. Or... I'll supply you with a year's supply of linen if you be my seamstress for the year and give me a third of your profits. Eventually you become the Banker. I don't know how much fun that is, but there you go.

mostlyharmful
2007-11-20, 05:23 PM
Here's the primary problem that all of these schemes have in common. There is a limited amount available to get from the sale of stuff. So it doesn't matter if you can produce a bazillion gp item, you'll only be able to get what is available. The other problem is that if you suddenly inject a mass amount of rare widgets into the economy, the value of widgets will drop rapidly (since they are no longer rare). If you literally MAKE gold coins, you will devalue the currency which is grounds for execution in some countries.

The solution is not to go for hard currency but instead for favors and credit. i.e. I'll give you a full suit of armor and weapons if you be my bodyguard for two years. Or... I'll supply you with a year's supply of linen if you be my seamstress for the year and give me a third of your profits. Eventually you become the Banker. I don't know how much fun that is, but there you go.

Or to build your own heap and sit on top of it like the king of the castle, see earlier posts:smallsmile:

Citizen Joe
2007-11-20, 05:34 PM
Actually, becoming king (or ruler) is a good way to make money too. Since at that point you can mint your own.

puppyavenger
2007-11-20, 07:34 PM
simple
1.get eschew material
2. use greater creation to create anything nonmajical you want, including currency
3. PROFIT!!

shadow_archmagi
2007-11-20, 08:04 PM
Ah yes...


Shopkeeper: That will be 5000 gold.
Mage: just let me get out my wallet portal...
*Poof*
Mage:Here you go!
Shopkeeper: Thank you very much.
*hour later*
Shopkeeper: Bob! You will never believe this! Some sucker actually PAID 5000 gold for that worthless piece of ju-
*Poof*
Shopkeeper: NOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooo!