Adapting to Deafness?

[Palanan]

The rules for 3.5 and Pathfinder describe the deafened condition in essentially the same terms, but Pathfinder adds a line at the end of its entry:

“Characters who remain deafened for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.”

But which ones, and how? This line is rather vague, and leaves me wondering if there are specific mechanics governing how exactly a character can adapt to one or more of the drawbacks. And the line is vague enough that I’m not sure if it also applies to characters who are born deaf, or whether there are separate rules which apply in that case.

I am looking specifically for mechanics from first-party WotC and Paizo sources. Is there anything that provides details on adapting to deafness?

[Kurald Galain]

Yes, the Deaf curse for oracles (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/oracle-curses/) is such a mechanic.

[Rynjin]

I'm pretty sure what that means is that over time you lose the immediate mechanical penalties (reduced Initiative, spell failure) and are left only with the immutable one: you're ****in' deaf and can't hear nothin'.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Rynjin
I'm pretty sure what that means is that over time you lose the immediate mechanical penalties (reduced Initiative, spell failure)….

Is there any rules clarification on how long that process takes, or whether one effect is lost before another?

And are there any rules anywhere on the mechanical effects of being born deaf?

[Rynjin]

Is there any rules clarification on how long that process takes, or whether one effect is lost before another?

And are there any rules anywhere on the mechanical effects of being born deaf?

I don't think there is, it's pretty much up to GM fiat.

You could potentially look at the downtime/retraining rules and try to apply some kind of logic there. It takes 20 days to retrain a racial trait which is kind of absurd already, so maybe a month of training to overcome the penalties of deafness?

[Palanan]

Okay, thanks. It seems odd that both 3.5 and Pathfinder should specifically mention deaf characters (at least regarding bards) and not follow up on that.

[Red Fel]

The rules for 3.5 and Pathfinder describe the deafened condition in essentially the same terms, but Pathfinder adds a line at the end of its entry:

“Characters who remain deafened for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.”

I've put what I think is the key language in bold.

The fact is, the Deafened condition is, by default, a temporary one. As such, there is no need to develop ways to compensate for it. However, characters who have the Deafened condition on a more permanent basis are almost certainly going to want a way to offset some of those penalties.

Can they be offset? Yes, some of them. You will always fail Perception checks based on sound, because you can't hear - that will never change. But you can take various feats and features that will give you a bonus to Initiative, offsetting that penalty. You can offset the verbal component spell failure chance with the Silent Spell feat, by simply bypassing verbal components.

"Can overcome some of them" says to me that a character is allowed, as they accumulate experience and wealth, to offset some of these penalties. It's not like you're magically forbidden from ever improving your Initiative, for example. What it does not say to me is that a character with a permanent Deafened condition simply learns to ignore being deaf, absent some additional modifiers. The penalty doesn't go away on its own - it requires investment.

And as I haven't seen any RAW to contradict that position, I feel pretty confident in it.

[Psyren]

^ While I agree that "a sufficiently-leveled character can spend build resources on things that bypass deafness in order to overcome it" is a true statement, I think the intent was that you could lessen the negatives of the condition over time without actually spending such resources.

As far as specifics, I don't know of any sources / NPCs / etc that have these kind of penalties and have overcome them, you may have to decide for yourself which parts of the condition get disregarded and which get kept. I definitely agree with "You still fail perception checks relatd to hearing" and "you get to ignore spell failure."

[Spore]

The fact is, the Deafened condition is, by default, a temporary one.

This is true for PCs, and for NPCs DM fiat is the modus operandi anyhow. Player characters eventually will have a way to deal with their disabilities because of low level cleric spells, unless they specifically don't want any of that.


it requires investment.

I don't fully agree. People adapt quite readily to such circumstances, but there is always the ability to train something like that using downtime rules. Imagine what a tutor on staying alert as a deaf person would cost and how long they would need to train for this.

I'd then multiply this cost by 100 gp per day personally, and in order not to hold up the entire group for weeks at a time, look into something like 1-2 weeks. "Training montages" are a thing for narrated media for a reason.

Natural adaption takes years, if not a decade or two.

[Red Fel]

I don't fully agree. People adapt quite readily to such circumstances, but there is always the ability to train something like that using downtime rules. Imagine what a tutor on staying alert as a deaf person would cost and how long they would need to train for this.

I'd then multiply this cost by 100 gp per day personally, and in order not to hold up the entire group for weeks at a time, look into something like 1-2 weeks. "Training montages" are a thing for narrated media for a reason.

My issue with this is that, if it is available to any one character, it should be available to all of them. The deaf character has a penalty to initiative because he or she can't hear things coming; fine, a tutor can teach the character to pick up on other signals. Logically, then, that tutor should be able to teach anybody to pick up on other signals.

Essentially, this becomes a feat you can buy for the cost of some gold and a training montage.

I love when players choose to take on a disadvantage. It opens new ways to play a character. I also love using a temporarily-permanent disadvantage - such as a curse - since that creates all sorts of exciting plot hooks. What I do not love is when a player chooses to take on a disadvantage, and then insists that they should have ways of offsetting it given to them, or at least made available for relatively inexpensive rates.

The Oracle curse is one thing. It starts with a disadvantage and slowly removes it, by explicit mechanics, as you level. I'm not talking about that. But if, for example, I have a player who wants to play a blind character - which is a choice and I support it - it's with the understanding that a disadvantage is a disadvantage. You want your blind character to adapt to being sightless? Great! Invest in feats and gear. You think your character should, over time, become adept at blind-fighting? That's what the feat means - it means you trained to overcome that disadvantage.

Adapting to a disadvantage or disability isn't automatic. It requires investment. Specifically, in mechanics. Saying "I pay a tutor to fix it for me" doesn't sell me. Want to invest in a homebrew feat? We can talk about that. But if there are mechanical ways to offset your disadvantage, I expect that you'll pursue those first, instead of simply asking for the fix.

Admittedly, that's my baggage. Your table will likely handle things differently, as they do. But in my mind it makes sense. If you are choosing to take on a mechanical disadvantage, with mechanical penalties, then you need to use mechanical advantages to offset them - if you choose to do so at all. As DM, I'm not going to simply let you spend some gold and downtime to gain the equivalent of a feat - not unless you're comfortable with that same training being available to anyone.

Heck, that Dragon has lived for centuries - that's worth a ton of training montages, isn't it? And he has plenty of gold, too! So he should have access to tutors who can teach him, I don't know, how to spot invisible enemies by how they occlude sound, right? Or maybe just let him purchase the Scent ability, that should be something you can just train, right?

These special, trained powers have mechanics in the game. That's what skills and feats are - they represent special training or unique abilities. If you want the benefits of a feat, take the feat. If no such feat exists, we can discuss homebrewing. But just paying for that bonus doesn't sit right with me.

[Psyren]

I don't think there's just one right answer here. Sure, investment/build resources can be used to lessen or even overcome a disadvantage, and some GMs may demand that you pay that price to do so. Others however might be fine with you either getting those feats or their effects for free over time, or even only getting lesser versions of them, that they can power up later by spending the true feat or item etc at some point. All of those approaches are valid, and the line in the RAW is vague enough that any of them could apply.