Analysis-Paralysis strikes again: 18th level magical secret; what spell besides wish?

[KorvinStarmast]

I chose wish since I want to be able to cast some other spells (Like earthquake) if the situation needs it (I believe there will be a siege soon) and Control Weather for the next time I have a naval raid/combat and want the lee gage.

As I wandered through the tasty level 9 spells from all classes, I began to get that 'arrgh' feeling again.

Since I already have true polymorph (got it at 17, lore bard) I think I don't need to get shape change; but am I wrong about that? Is shape change the better spell?

Imprisonment: how good is this, really? On paper it looks really cool from the campaign perspective. In play ... have any of you used it?

Meteor Swarm: 1 mile range, 4 different impact points, so many chances to wreak havoc. And no concentration, no expensive components.

Blade of Disaster (Tasha's): uh, this is scary good and I have both proficiency in Constitution saves and War Caster feat. I can keep this sword going if I get into a fight. (Lore bard, so I don't usually get into close combat even though I took Moderately Armored and got a mithral half plate to boost AC (at 16) when I need it).

True Resurrection: I have resurrection, do I really need TR? Not really ... or do I? How good is this as a PC spell?

Mass Heal: How good is this, really? Party of four, all have over 100 HP.

Astral Projection is a neat spell, and we do have some planar travel in this campaign, but I have a cubic gate. Don't need Gate either for the same reason.

Mass Polymorph might, in another game, be amusing. But I don't see it working in this campaign.

Power Word, Heal. How good is this, really?

Prismatic Wall. I am torn. On the one hand, it's non concentration. That's good. On the other, each layer is defeatable. At level 18-20, it's not beyond reason for high level enemies to have an idea about this spell's weaknesses. Who has used this? Is it it any good?

Invulnerability: how good is this, really? I can't cast it on a party member, which saddens me.

Help me out, I only get one last Magical Secret to pick and my analysis paralysis has me banging me head against my lute. :smallannoyed:

[Valmark]

In my experience Shapechange is the better combat spell- that said, they are both strong. True Polymorph is better if you leverage the 'becomes permanent' bit- that said, popping a magical secret on Shapechange when you have TP natively doesn't sound much needed.

Inprisonment is honestly an npc spell- I would possibly consider it on a wizard, but... Meh. No.

Meteor Swarm is an old classic. Yes.

Blade of Disaster looks cool but it feels honestly very weak for a 9th level single target spell. No.

True Resurrection covers cases that at 18th level are legitimate concerns- I would keep it as a PC spell. Yes.

Mass Heal absolutely a yes- popping a 9th level spell to fill up the whole party and possible npcs sounds extremely useful. Yes.

Mass Polymorph and Power Word Heal hard No- these are bard spells, feels like a waste of a Secret.

Astral Projection means you can Gate something and face it with way less consequences if you lose, and other applications- imo it's a yes. Gate no though.

Prismatic Wall it's imo a yes, as even if it's defeatable it does take multiple actions to do so and it's an AoE that cannot hurt you.

Invulnerability no. In most situations I imagine it useful I can also imagine at least two spells I'd rather have cast with that slot.

Out of Meteor Swarm, True Resurrection, Mass Heal, Astral Projection and Prismatic Wall I would take the first if you have another main healer- otherwise Mass Heal is sweet to have.

That said... Depending on your group, Maze and Illusory Dragon could be good choices as well to have as 8th level spells you can cast without having to expend a Wish/9th level slot.

[Nidgit]

Franky it's insane that Illusory Dragon isn't on the Bard spell list. Sunburst should probably be on there too- nearly every other full caster gets that one.

[Eldariel]

Shapechange all the way! The fact that it lets you cast while in forms and retain your class features is incredible. True Polymorph is a superb spell but it's more for permanently altering things in offdays (it can be used in combat as an emergency but that's an emergency; you want it to boost your spell-tapped out Simulacrum or let ally live out their Ancient Dragon fantasies or turn pebbles into Young Silver Dragons or Hollyphants or such) while Shapechange is for fighting.

First of all, Shapechange lets you switch shape with an action meaning it's not only one form, it's all forms for one slot. Turn into Elder Brain, locate your target, turn into Hollyphant and Teleport without Error, turn into Marilith/Pit Fiend/Solar/Ancient Brass Dragon and rip them apart, turn into e.g. Radiant Idol or some such and heal back up, turn into Sibriex for Feeblemind spam, turn into Githzerai Anarch for Psionic Plane Shift punch, etc.

Second of all, it lets you maintain your spellcasting so you can combine all of that with all the non-Concentration buffs you can think of, your Inspiration uses, etc.

Obviously Metamagic Adept for Extend Spell is fun here.


EDIT: Quick comparison:
- Prismatic Wall? Good with Reverse Gravity. You can get similar results with lesser spells though and without Time Stop that's hard to setup. The amount of durability you get out of Shapechange makes it just more generally applicable

- Astral Projection? Solid, but you're almost as impossible to kill with Shapechange while also getting access to most other spells 1-8 at-will (or with a 6 second cooldown for shifting shapes) and getting all sorts of otherwise unaccessible location and mobility abilities (the only way to teleport without error is through Shapechange for instance)

- Gate? A great spell for murdering someone. It's probably the only spell not on the list I'd consider here: if you need to kill someone, cast Gate and call the target to a specifically prepared demiplane trap. They can't leave, they can't win, they die. Doesn't work on planar rulers and such but vs. all lesser targets it's a very efficient option with very little counterplay. However, it only does one thing: kill people (and okay, transport across planes and summon superbuff things you can't control). It's generally better to just get personal access to all those useful abilities instead though, but Gate is definitely in the upper echelon of options here.

- Invulnerability? You're nearly as invulnerable under Shapechange (you have options that can cast Heal and options that can get immunity to basically any single thing and so on) while also getting every single offensive and utility ability monsters in the game have. So basically the same plus all the offense and lasts 6 times longer.

- Meteor Swarm? Meh, Ancient Dragon Breath is generally sufficient damage. Meteor Swarm is strong and the largest damage option you have available but it's also a 9th level slot which is hard to use on such a frivolous thing. You can come close enough with Shapechange that I'd consider the other boons to make up for what you don't get.

- Blade of Disaster? Yeah, it's just bad compared to e.g. Meteor Swarm. Meteor Swarm and cantrips generally does comparable single target damage over an encounter and doesn't cost Concentration. And Meteor Swarm has the range of 1 mile and a massive AOE.

- True Resurrection? Shapechange comes close enough; you have a lot of ways to fix someone up among the creatures of the multiverse. No actual True Resurrection but pretty close.

- Mass Heal? See above, it's just too specialised compared to the swiss army knife that is Shapechange that does all this with a single casting.

[noob]

Do you have (mirage arcana or guards and wards) and glyph of warding? (it is a combo that matches up ninth level spells in terms of power and the two former can be used to trivialise dungeons too if you have the kind of time that would allow a short rest)
Imprisonment is really bad: just use petrify then hide the petrified thing in a bag of holding or something and it fills the same role.

[diplomancer]

Shapechange has the "you must have seen it" restriction, which can be quite bad in some campaigns.

My vote is for either Mass Heal (assuming no Cleric in the party), since it can easily be the difference between victory and defeat on that last epic battle, or Maze (I have a bias here; when considering Magical Secrets, I usually prefer to get options from the last two available spell levels, not only the highest level; I feel it gives me more flexibility with my slots).

[JellyPooga]

Shapechange has the "you must have seen it" restriction, which can be quite bad in some campaigns.

My vote is for either Mass Heal (assuming no Cleric in the party), since it can easily be the difference between victory and defeat on that last epic battle, or Maze (I have a bias here; when considering Magical Secrets, I usually prefer to get options from the last two available spell levels, not only the highest level; I feel it gives me more flexibility with my slots).

In similar vein, I'm going to go ahead and recommend Demiplane. On the surface it seems like a banal and relatively pointless spell but with some planning and a little creativity (read: GM permission) can be remarkably powerful.

It's not that great for making yourself a tidy little hideaway because unless you have access to other means of planar travel, you're limited to using it for only an hour at a time. However, it can be used to turn you into a kind of interplanar gaoler/zookeeper with a menagerie of beasts and creatures at your beck and call. Now, for your average Wizard or Sorcerer, this might seem like a fanciful suggestion, but for a Bard with access to their top-tier manipulation spells, features and skills, persuading, training or outright trapping a host of captive "allies" is very much a possibility. If you tailor the "cells" to the needs and wants of their occupants, this does not have to be unpleasant for the captives either; a good zookeeper takes care of their animals, after all.

There's really no limit to how many creatures/npcs ypu can have in your menagerie, barring your ability to keep them fed and content with a single casting per day.

Be the bad guy. Be a Bard.

[Valmark]

Shapechange has the "you must have seen it" restriction, which can be quite bad in some campaigns.

My vote is for either Mass Heal (assuming no Cleric in the party), since it can easily be the difference between victory and defeat on that last epic battle, or Maze (I have a bias here; when considering Magical Secrets, I usually prefer to get options from the last two available spell levels, not only the highest level; I feel it gives me more flexibility with my slots).

Meh, pictures exist- it's hard to justify never having seen X creature in many settings unless those are some obscure and unknown creatures.

The idea of considering a spell from 8th level as well is extremely sound imo- especially if it's a spell you can use most of the time like Maze.

[Gtdead]

Some ideas:

True Resurrection can be used as a summoning spell if the lore of the setting allows for it. For example, resurrecting the vanquished enemies of the big bad.
Gate can be used for scry and die tactics. With some planar engineering you can force anyone on the material plane to appear before you. It is kind of powergamey, but it's hard for the DM to veto something like casting Gate inside a demiplane to summon someone from the material plane RAW.

Generally speaking, Shapechange is the strongest spell of the bunch, assuming that you have seen enough unique monsters that you can make use of them. You can also bypass the clause in your downtime through summoning various creatures that you research, thus seeing them once.

[Eldariel]

Some ideas:

True Resurrection can be used as a summoning spell if the lore of the setting allows for it. For example, resurrecting the vanquished enemies of the big bad.
Gate can be used for scry and die tactics. With some planar engineering you can force anyone on the material plane to appear before you. It is kind of powergamey, but it's hard for the DM to veto something like casting Gate inside a demiplane to summon someone from the material plane RAW.

Generally speaking, Shapechange is the strongest spell of the bunch, assuming that you have seen enough unique monsters that you can make use of them. You can also bypass the clause in your downtime through summoning various creatures that you research, thus seeing them once.

Also divination spells and mobility spells like teleportation and plane shifting effects enable very efficient research.

[KorvinStarmast]

Outstanding suggestions from each of you, thanks, it's got me narrowing down my choices.
I do have simulacrum, and while I can't perma turn it into a dragon (discussion with my DM) I can turn sim or any ally into an adult dragon of a variety of kinds with TP. I probably keep it.

Had considered all of the other points, and, our group does not have a cleric.
Mass Healing is still a candidate.
Improsonment isn't, nor is Mass Polymorph.

[Temperjoke]

Mass Healing can be clinch in the right circumstance, especially if you're level 18 you're probably getting near the end battles.

[diplomancer]

One more thing to consider. I only played tier 4 once in 5e. There was basically *no* downtime for the entire tier. And for good reason; the game breaks if you give tier 4 Wizards, Bards, and Sorcerers significant downtime (for the reasons already mentioned by others, be it multiple demiplanes with different creatures, infinite shapechange research, etc.).

So, IF you believe you'll be able to take advantage of downtime to significantly increase your power, relative to the other players, by all means go crazy. But if the campaign is on a strict clock (remember also that the game is designed to make tier 4 short) and you won't be able to do these tactics, I'd say the big combat spells, like Mass Heal, will be more useful.

[JellyPooga]

One more thing to consider. I only played tier 4 once in 5e. There was basically *no* downtime for the entire tier. And for good reason; the game breaks if you give tier 4 Wizards, Bards, and Sorcerers significant downtime (for the reasons already mentioned by others, be it multiple demiplanes with different creatures, infinite shapechange research, etc.).

So, IF you believe you'll be able to take advantage of downtime to significantly increase your power, relative to the other players, by all means go crazy. But if the campaign is on a strict clock (remember also that the game is designed to make tier 4 short) and you won't be able to do these tactics, I'd say the big combat spells, like Mass Heal, will be more useful.

I'll heartily concur with this. The "ulitm8 powah!" of many spells is often very dependent on the tone, style and content of your specific game. In a game of armies and mass battles on a continental scale with very few powerful/high level spellcasters, Storm of Vengeance becomes an incedibly powerful spell despite the conventional wisdom that might speak otherwise. Similarly, in a resource scarce campaign where material components of significant value are hard to come by, certain spells, like Simulacrum are simply not going to be on the table or at least have to be used more judiciously in a more limited fashion.

[shipiaozi]

Have 3rd lv9 spells is usually a bad choice, while have 4th would certainly be wrong.
You may want to get some useful low-level spells, what other spells you get from previous magic secret?

[noob]

Some lower level spells are as strong as ninth level spells provided you abuse them hard enough.
Ex: guards and wards.

[Eldariel]

Have 3rd lv9 spells is usually a bad choice, while have 4th would certainly be wrong.
You may want to get some useful low-level spells, what other spells you get from previous magic secret?

This isn't true for a spontaneous caster. Wish and True Polymorph are downtime spells through and through; you use Wish for a Contingency and a Simulacrum and a Find Greater Steed and Simulacrum can give you resistances and such, and while it can be a decent combat spell, unless you go above the limits it's probably worse than other 9s. The big selling point of True Polymorph is the permanency too (it's incredible in that sense) and while it can be used in combat too, it doesn't hold a candle to Shapechange. Shapechange is the spell you want to cast every day (2 hours of awesome is hard to beat) and the others are for prep.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'll heartily concur with this. The "ulitm8 powah!" of many spells is often very dependent on the tone, style and content of your specific game.
In a game of armies and mass battles on a continental scale with very few powerful/high level spellcasters, Storm of Vengeance becomes an incedibly powerful spell despite the conventional wisdom that might speak otherwise.
Similarly, in a resource scarce campaign where material components of significant value are hard to come by, certain spells, like Simulacrum are simply not going to be on the table or at least have to be used more judiciously in a more limited fashion. I have used Simulacrum once; the sim is still alive and she's doing things for me, like training the crews of the ships we own (our party now owns 4, two of them captured, one of them commandeered, and one of them just joined our 'shipping line' in the southern ocean) with weapons that a bard is proficient with: rapiers, long swords, short swords, hand crossbows, cross bows. She also has provided a few chances for me to be seen in one place, while I am somewhere else.
The DM finally ruled that I can't perma polymorph a sim using TP. It lasts for the hour and then reverts. I still have some uses of TP and Sim, though, but that may be during unique missions where I want to do something from dragon back. (I can turn her into an adult emerald dragon, and intend to do so in the n near future).

Have 3rd lv9 spells is usually a bad choice, while have 4th would certainly be wrong. Sorry, you have no standing to say that.

You may want to get some useful low-level spells, what other spells you get from previous magic secret? Yes, that's the never ending issue that leads to my analysis paralysis.
My previous magical secrets are: Conjure Animals, Counterspell (keeping both, they are handy); Wall of Force / Bigby's Hand (DM let me change that to Conjure Dragon Spirit from Fizban's - I had wanted it while it was UA but we agreed to wait until the final form of the spell was published); Contingency and Simulacrum. Current contingency is revivify.

Wish lets me do some things I want to here and there.

The last choice, per a lot of the advice, needs to be tailored to the campaign and the world. Mass Heal looks more appealing since I did not take Heal as a secret when I had the chance (almost regretting that now)

1. No wish simulacrum cheese. The DM and I agree on that already. But Sim is still a handy spell. I do have the money to make a few more at a later level, but the campaign is already approaching the end game.
2. I don't get to do what I had thought of doing, using TP to turn large rocks into Young Silver Dragons ... DM and I discussed "where does a dragon's soul come from if you make that permanent" and digging through the world building involved, the answer is, so far, doesn't work, and might evolve into "may need to go on a quest to find a willing soul ... and also not piss off the dragons of the world who are very clannish and very particular about their lineage and families."

No, I don't want to make the dragons of the game world angry. We are currently friends with the oldest dragon in the world (called The Eldest) and an adult gold dragon. We have established detente with an ancient black dragon who was our nemesis through level 16/17. We are on excellent terms with an adult blue and an adult copper.

3. Forecasting, though and reviewing level 5, 6, and 7, spells that might be a better idea is still a good suggestion.

4. The way this game world works, providing we live through the world shaping adventure path we are on now - we recently prevented the demigod of death from being taken out/replaced and are trying to save a dying race (more or less shadar kai fitted to this game world) - my PC will in time become a prominent NPC in the world, so I want her spell selections to reflect both long and short term thinking. If what I hope pans out, she'll be the chief of the navy for a kingdom near to where she grew up so her spells need to help her execute those duties to her beat advantage. (Which is where Meteor Swarm just makes me drool - 20d6 fire and 20d6 bludgeoning to four different ships within a mile - which sets them on fire as we approach a battle? I get shivers just thinking of it.
:smallbiggrin:

[Eldariel]

I'll just say this:
- Shapechange lets you turn into a dragon turtle, tip over boats, turn into a dragon and breathe on some, turn into a red abishai and morale boost your crew, teleport an attack crew onto an enemy ship, disable the enemy captain, then after the fight turn into some angelic creature and heal your whole team while also locating ships within 5 mile radius with Elder Brain shape and such.
- Mass Heal lets you heal nuke in combat.
- Meteor Swarm lets you damage nuke in combat.

Overall, I think Shapechange more or less does both to a slightly lesser degree what those spells do while doing dozens of other things. To that end, especially if expecting an occupation where broad utility is very important post-adventuring, I'd go Shapechange even more than I would before. You can even create wind, or move boats yourself or fix things or convey messages and command a fleet or whatever with it while Mass Heal and Meteor Swarm are limited to tactical combat use only. Shapechange is more strategic.

And of course, it sounds like you already know enough creatures that you'd have no shortage of great forms. You don't need them all; you just need enough good ones to cover the most important bases to make it "the best spell in the game" and the more specialisation you add, the more "better" it gets. Also note that Wish can make most "nuke" effect spells somewhat redundant in combat use since it can make long casting time effects like Mirage Arcana or Guards and Wards or such pop into effect with a single action and as noob has mentioned, those do pack a punch.

Meteor Swarm is still stronger at its niche as is Mass Heal but considering the opportunity cost of picking a 9th level spell just for a single niche, I'd say it's probably not a sufficient improvement if we think from an efficiency perspective compared to the breadth of options Shapechange gives above and beyond True Polymorph (being able to switch shape multiple times during the duration to recharge cooldowns and such is just such an amazingly great boon as is the ability to use your own class features and spellcasting while shapechanged).

[KorvinStarmast]

Meteor Swarm is still stronger at its niche as is Mass Heal but considering the opportunity cost of picking a 9th level spell just for a single niche, I'd say it's probably not a sufficient improvement if we think from an efficiency perspective compared to the breadth of options Shapechange gives above and beyond True Polymorph (being able to switch shape multiple times during the duration to recharge cooldowns and such is just such an amazingly great boon as is the ability to use your own class features and spellcasting while shapechanged). I already have TP as a bard; but if I choose shapechange, it's really me who is changing, not someone else. An advantage of TP is that legendary actions do come with, since they are in the stat block, but explicitly don't come with shapechange. Shapechange allows change to change to change to change all within the space of an hour.

That's some serious flexibility, yeah.
Final Three are currently Mass Heal, Prismatic Wall, and Shapechange.

Just noticed that since the DM allows the optional spells from Tasha's, Prismatic Wall is already a bard option so I am down to shapechange and mass heal. Probably going for Shapechange. Still pondering.