[3.5] Best Classes/Party When There's No Downtime

[Thurbane]

So, just some idle questions.

I've played a few campaigns or adventures when there is an extremely tight timeline of events.

Unfortunately, the first (and to date, only) time I played a Wizard in 3.5, was in one such adventure. I had no downtime to scribe spells into my book, and basically only ended up knowing the 2 bonus spells each level.

"Default play" assumes downtime for things like this, plus crafting magic items etc.

If you were to build an optimized party that has no need for downtime, what would it be?

Cleric or Druid seems obvious, since they can access their entire spell list and only need to pray once each day.

ToB types similarly shouldn't need downtime.

What 4 person party would you build around this?

All Clerics/Druids is the obvious answer, but try to think outside the box.

Cheers - T

[Gavinfoxx]

You want casters that get lesser restoration, know their whole list, and do not need 8 hours of sleep to prepare their spells. So Cleric or Druid. Prepared divine casters, I guess. Add Shaman??

[Thurbane]

Off the top of my head, I'd go the following:

Healer/buffer/restorer: Cleric
Skillmonkey/face: Beguiler
Melee type: Crusader (or Warblade)
Area control/save or suck: Sorcerer (?)

Not as optimal as 4 full casters, but I think it's workable. Having the Cleric and Beguiler lets the Sorc free up his spells known to fill the gaps.

[Feldar]

Wizard is fine, if you mix in some Mage of the Arcane Order levels. The prestige class basically makes up for not having time to scribe scrolls into your spellbook.

Another option would be sandshaper - for a feat and a level of spellcasting progression, you automatically get to know 30+ spells without having to scribe them into your book.

[RaiKirah]

Not actually optimized, but if you really have no down time a Warforged Warlock can go all day long 24/7 without pause forever.

[Troacctid]

Pretty boring answer, but yes, clerics and druids in various different configurations are going to be the most powerful, because they are already the most powerful to start with and your restriction only knocks down the classes that would normally be competing with them.

If you're going to fill a whole party with just clerics and druids, you'll obviously want different builds for each of them so they're not all doing the exact same thing, but since they're both incredibly flexible and support lots of different strategies (especially once you add prestige classes into the mix), that's not a problem.

[zlefin]

I don't think it really changes much. Wizards can do just fine with their 2 spells/level if they choose them carefully; there's a number of highly flexible spells that let you get all the capabilities you need anyways.
They still end up with more spells known than a sorcerer.

I can't even think of class that I'm sure would be seriously hurt by lack of downtime. Archivist maybe, I'm not familiar with how they work.

[The Viscount]

If you're going to take "no downtime" to the extreme, the ToB classes, Binder, Warlock, and Dragonfire Adept are all classes that don't require 8 hours of rest for any of their features. Honorable mention to factotum, who only needs rest for arcane dilettante. Dragon Shaman isn't very impressive but similarly is always on, and their healing aura can keep the party going without sleep.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Totemist is fine, though not happy, even without enough time to rest and shape new soulmelds. Even if you level up multiple times without being able to rest, you can get a new level appropriate load-out with just 8 hours. Incarnates less so; they really want to be able to switch their utility melds.

Obviously the martial classes are going to be just fine, with special mention to Crusaders that can heal themselves and the party.

With rest time but no downtime, Artificers do surprisingly well. The trick that lets them cast any spell 4th level (or lower) is fast enough to be usable in combat, and they can have a little homunculus working away in a portable hole while they're adventuring if they do need to get some crafting done. Most of the casters will be just fine here, actually, but (Wildshape) Mystic Ranger is going to be really strong.

[Troacctid]

Warlocks are going to have problems with their UMD-related features without downtime, which gives dragonfire adepts the edge in the head-to-head. Neither of them compares great against sorcerer-types, though.

Wizards are still fine as long as you spec your build to work without downtime, but they do go down in power noticeably when you have longer adventuring days and no time to scribe scrolls or spellbooks.

Artificers are probably higher in the rankings than you think they are. Spell-storing item is very strong, and their ability to add metamagic to wands makes them one of the best classes for persistomancy.

What levels are we talking? That would make a big difference in the type of build I'd go for in a campaign like this.

[AnonymousPepper]

Wizard gets a lot better if you take the Collegiate Wizard feat at level 1, doubling your base spells known at first level and getting more based on Intelligence, and then tripling your spells added per level afterward. You still have to wrestle with the 8 hours of rest requirement, of course, but still, that feat does at least effectively solve the spells known problem.

[SunnyWolf]

assuming you get 8 hours rest for arcane casters (or house rule they don't need it), the sha'ir is a good option in this situation.
you get access to all of the sorcerer/wizard spell list (technically you only know some of them, but you can cast all of them) and a few domains.

I'd also mention the spirit shaman, mostly because it's a divine spellcaster with full access to its spell list that wasn't mentioned yet (not to be confused with the shaman).

[Seward]

I've played under those conditions with a crafting wizard. It was frustrating. She was a crafting wizard because the GM also didn't like giving out wealth-by-level loot and/or tailoring loot to the party. Not to say we didn't still succeed but here is what I'd look for in a party.

1. Make sure the party can perform without access to a magic-mart (no downtime means no custom crafting with NPCs either and usually a remote location and some reason you can't just teleport to market). Divine casters, spontaneous casters who get their spells as class features and martial types whose class features either match the type of loot you're likely to find, or who can get most of what they need via spell. Ie, if you're in a place that is metal poor fighting nonhumanoid opposition, pick a monk or a kensai or an arcane gish that is good to go with a mage armor spell instead of needing fullplate and can either make any random weapon they find useful, or ARE a weapon. Key spells....greater magic weapon, mantle of faith, mage armor and oddball stuff that lets weapons switch damage types. Or say Haste even at level 12, when all martials would normally be rocking boots of haste.

2. Whatever buffs are needed to make up for lack of gear customization, ensure that they're available preferably 24x7 or on 10 minute/level timers.

3. You will need an unusually high amount of slots that can be dedicated to healing (if only by swapping spells for one 8 hour cycle after a bad day) because you can't just bring a quiver of Cure Light Wounds wands with you.

4. Divine casters should leave a few high level slots open to fill with things like Break Enchantment, Restoration etc if needed, or to search their lists for something specific needed that normally you'd just keep in a scrollcase for 10 levels gathering dust till needed.

Basically, the main impact of no downtime is no custom gear by purchase or crafting. Build your party to be less dependent on specific items or consumables. And do your best to find a use for anything you do actually loot. Also if you ever find or can purchase diamond dust, get all you can. Might not be able to get some in time for the raise dead timer to run out, or to cast that restoration before they take permanent level loss.

[Yael]

+1 for initiators, Dragonfire Adept and Warlock. They are practically sources of at-will abilities that need no prep time. Binder is also good for on-the-go utility, and maybe Psion, as most abilities they wield are born within themselves (but less versatile than clerics or druids).

CoDzilla is always the answer, but actually the spontaneous list classes are (although not optimal).

[Seward]

To some extent level plays into it.

A baby Sorcerer needs scrolls to do more than her handfull of spells. A wizard needs scrolls to do more than a couple things a day. Neither will do well if not allowed to at least shop.

By level 6 or so either can stand on their own adequately, although wizard's not going to get much use out of scribe scroll. L6 though is when the martials need more than generic equipment, they need magic items to do their role (or equivalent buffs from the casters). If your scimitar specialist is only finding magic longswords it's problematic.

By level 10 or so, the arcane casters will have enough spells known/slots to be nearly as effective as divine casters even lacking consumables. Prep casters suffer a bit from lack of pearls of power, everybody might miss their metamagic rods etc but they can do fine without such crutches in a pinch. But basically every level the martials will depend more and more on spell support to make up for gear if the GM isn't providing access to the right stuff. In a normal campaign you can buy it or craft it or commission it. In a fast-forward campaign, GM expects you to accept that the Helm of Brilliance he gave the party is worth as much as the basic strength, armor class, saving through and weapon stuff that helm could buy is good enough, when most of the time it leaves the party short and rarely overpowers theparty.

This can be mitigated somewhat if the GM is flexible. Let you adjust build to gear you find, or give you an alternate way to upgrade gear you already have. Let the wizards find a spellbook, not scrolls he has to scribe, and just devote a read magic cantrip daily to prep spells from it since he doesn't have time to decipher.

Basically if you trust your GM to work with you, a fast forward campaign doesn't need optimization. If you expect the GM to use it as an excuse to gear-starve the party from basic things they're expected to have, find a way to get all your basics via class abiliites and buffs (and those basics includ rapid hitpoint recovery without using consumables)

[rel]

If you want to play a wizard but your GM insists on sending in the ninja whenever you try to stop following the rails consider the easy bake option:

You start with the elf wizard ACF for bonus spells known and eidetic spellcaster so you don't run out of spell book pages.

Then you increase your spells known further with ACF's like domain wizard or spontaneous divination and feats like collegiate wizard or greyhawk method.

You end up with so many spells known that you can grab all the good stuff just by leveling up and you lack a lot of the weaknesses of traditional wizards to boot.

[Anthrowhale]

For an extreme version of no-downtime, I'm wondering about a sleepless race (an elf?) combined with a Sha'ir/Spelldancer. The Sha'ir spell mechanic requires no rest/prayer/meditation/study while Spelldancer takes care of the limited spells/day by enabling persistomancy.

Wizard, Wu Jen, Death Master, Archivist: 8 hours rest + 1 hour study
Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Warmage, Shugenja, Sorcerer: 8 hours rest + 15 minute concentration (per rules compendium)
Shaman, Spirit Shaman, Healer, Druid, Cleric, Urban Druid: 1 hour contemplation/supplication/meditation/conversation-with-spirits
Sha'ir: Send the Djinn

[Lilapop]

Wizard gets a lot better if you take the Collegiate Wizard feat at level 1, doubling your base spells known at first level and getting more based on Intelligence, and then tripling your spells added per level afterward. You still have to wrestle with the 8 hours of rest requirement, of course, but still, that feat does at least effectively solve the spells known problem.

Not sure we're looking at the same feat. My Complete Arcane replaces the normal starting knowns (6+Int instead of 3+Int), and doubles the new knowns on levelup (4 each instead of 2 each). Still, that should be good enough to make the wizard get by without scribing additional spells.


a sleepless race (an elf?)
AFAIK, the only mechanics that require rest and sleep are arcane casters' daily spells, and natural healing. Your barbarian's daily rages, your paladin's daily smites, and your divine caster's prayer or shair's fetching as you note just plop back in at 6 AM, even if you have been slaughtering slaughterables all night. And the arcane casters who do need 8 hours of rest before spellprep don't actually care if your race doesn't sleep: elves already spend half of that time actively doing nothing.

In other words, your findings affect class choice, but not race choice. Unless I'm missing something.

[Anthrowhale]

In other words, your findings affect class choice, but not race choice. Unless I'm missing something.

Well, it's hard to imagine achieving the 'extreme version of no downtime' if the race sleeps.

However, it looks like the elf still needs to trance, so that doesn't quite work. And the feat tax for Spelldancer is pretty intense without access to some helper items.

How about a Neraph Sha'ir 3/Geomancer 6/Sacred Exorcist 1/Geomancer 4/<something> 6?
Taking feats:
1. Knowledge Devotion
3. Extend Spell
6. ??
9. Persistent Spell
12. DMM[Persistent Spell]
...

That would give you a spellcaster that never sleeps (Neraph are outsiders), never trances, and never studies/concentrates/meditates/etc.... that can use DMM[persistent] spells via Geomancer's Spell Versatility.

[AnonymousPepper]

Not sure we're looking at the same feat. My Complete Arcane replaces the normal starting knowns (6+Int instead of 3+Int), and doubles the new knowns on levelup (4 each instead of 2 each). Still, that should be good enough to make the wizard get by without scribing additional spells.

Probably me being sleep-deprived, my bad. Still, yeah, point stands. Combine with the rest of the Easy Bake chassis for fun and profit.

[Zarvistic]

I'd think a good party would be a swordsage, warblade, warlock and dragonfire adept. As a bonus, not too taxing on the dm in terms of encounters.

[tiercel]

Warlocks are going to have problems with their UMD-related features without downtime

Depending, likely, on just how little downtime there is (e.g. “you can’t count on buying or selling items on any kind of regular basis”) and how much the DM likes randomized vs customized item drops as a result. If the campaign is going to be dropping a lot of random loot you can’t necessarily count on being able to sell, UMD+Deceive Item starts looking really good as one of the better uses for said loot.

Yeah, OK, Imbue Item crafting is still a problem but hey, you were looking for an excuse to pick up HELLFIRE WARLOCK AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA anyway, right?

Flipside: if downtime is just *limited* (only the occasional day or two off here or there) but shop access is still problematic, then Imbue Item/Scribe Scroll starts looking really, really good

So yeah this really does depend on what “no/little downtime” means, i.e. how little downtime, how little shop access, and how random the loot.

[RaiKirah]

Assuming the party is allowed to sleep, a Warlock who doesn't need to (Warforged, Necropolitan, etc) can just craft while the party is snoozing since you need to craft for 8 hours a day.

[Telonius]

For really extreme, no-rest-at-all scenarios, you could go Team Undead for Necropolitans, and have somebody take a single level of Dread Necromancer for always-on "healing."

[Kaleph]

Off the top of my head, I'd go the following:

Healer/buffer/restorer: Cleric
Skillmonkey/face: Beguiler
Melee type: Crusader (or Warblade)
Area control/save or suck: Sorcerer (?)

Not as optimal as 4 full casters, but I think it's workable. Having the Cleric and Beguiler lets the Sorc free up his spells known to fill the gaps.

I've personally seen shaper psions properly filling the slot you reserve to the sorcerer; I know it's a close call, but between the two, the psion would be my personal favorite, since it has a faster power/level progression (9th at level 17). I assume, just looking at your other posts, that you haven't considered them since they are probably banned at your table.

I totally agree on cleric and crusader; actually having one mundane character in the party is a plus IMHO, at least at very very low levels. I would probably still prefer an ultimate magus/wizard (with collegiate wizard, domain wizard and/or whatever) over a beguiler, but again, that would be a close call.

[Gorthawar]

Lots of classes already mentioned so nothing to add there.

However, hewards fortifying bedroll from CM reduces the time to rest for to regain spells to 1h freeing up a lot of time to do other things. Furthermore the quill of scribing also from CM can be used to scribe scrolls on you behalf. A lenient DM might be convinced that it could write spells in your spellbook as well

[Thunder999]

I feel like even with only the basic spells from leveling wizard is still the best arcane option, they still have more spells known than a sorcerer, get access faster and have an easier time getting into Mage of the Arcane Order to cover the ones they don't know.

[noob]

So, just some idle questions.

I've played a few campaigns or adventures when there is an extremely tight timeline of events.

Unfortunately, the first (and to date, only) time I played a Wizard in 3.5, was in one such adventure. I had no downtime to scribe spells into my book, and basically only ended up knowing the 2 bonus spells each level.

"Default play" assumes downtime for things like this, plus crafting magic items etc.

If you were to build an optimized party that has no need for downtime, what would it be?

Cleric or Druid seems obvious, since they can access their entire spell list and only need to pray once each day.

ToB types similarly shouldn't need downtime.

What 4 person party would you build around this?

All Clerics/Druids is the obvious answer, but try to think outside the box.

Cheers - T
Wizard with the collegiate wizard feat gets 4 spells per level which can often be enough.

[Gruftzwerg]

Draconic Aura: Vigor
It's nice aura for a single feat if you should have any race that counts as or is a dragon. (e.g. Silverbrow Human, Deepwyrm Half-Drow, DWK...). Having an aura always heal you half full HP is always handy.

__

Other constant free healing option would be to dip a single lvl into Shadow Sun Ninja. You only need an undead target in reach and can alter every round between the undead target and a non-undead target to heal. Either be necropolitan or get some type of undead companion.

A Iron Chef entry of mine, G.R.8 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24938996&postcount=113), abuses the shadow companion from the Shadow Dancer prc for this. Since it is also a warforged build, it would fit your requirements for a no-downtime build. Sole Drunken Master needs one night of RP downtime to enter. While the optimization lvl might be to much, maybe you can pick up some ideas there.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Psions have lots and lots (and lots) of ways to refill their pp reserves without resting, so any race that doesn't need sleep (or if you have access to lesser restoration or some means of being immune to fatigue and/or exhaustion), you can do well with one. Psions also only need 1 full round action to refill their pp each day after rest, unlike an arcane caster that requires 1 hour for their spells.

Also, if you have the right kind of setup with a dedicated wright and an enveloping pit, you can spend that hour that arcanists spend prepping spells instead beginning the item crafting process. Works best with a StP erudite or with a psion who uses Linked Power + psychic reformation to nab the powers and feats needed for crafting.


Lots of classes already mentioned so nothing to add there.

However, hewards fortifying bedroll from CM reduces the time to rest for to regain spells to 1h freeing up a lot of time to do other things. Furthermore the quill of scribing also from CM can be used to scribe scrolls on you behalf. A lenient DM might be convinced that it could write spells in your spellbook as wellA ring of sustenance allows arcanists and psionicists to refill their spells and slots after only 2 hours, although arcane spellcasters in particular can't refill any slots spent in the previous 8 hours. Combine with the bedroll to reduce that to 1 hour every other day.

[Zanos]

Depending on the level you get to, at some point a sufficiently powerful wizard can create his own downtime.

[Seward]

Depending on the level you get to, at some point a sufficiently powerful wizard can create his own downtime.

In the campaign where I had this problem Teleport was one of my L9 "free spell scribe" picks precisely to fix the shopping problem. It didn't help as much with crafting but sometimes I could teleport to my lab and squeeze in a bit of minor item creation in periods where the rest of the party was doing something else, typically some kind of required social activity (my character was a gigantic engineer-style nerd and hated that stuff).

[noob]

In the campaign where I had this problem Teleport was one of my L9 "free spell scribe" picks precisely to fix the shopping problem. It didn't help as much with crafting but sometimes I could teleport to my lab and squeeze in a bit of minor item creation in periods where the rest of the party was doing something else, typically some kind of required social activity (my character was a gigantic engineer-style nerd and hated that stuff).

Did you also get a creature with a good spell-craft modifier you created to stay with your spellbook long enough to study it then write new spells in it?
None of the rules impose you have to be the one writing the spells in your own spellbook and there is a rule for appropriating for yourself the writing style of a spellbook you get your hands on (together it suggests another creature could study your spellbook then write spells in it for you).

[Seward]

We had a larger problem with depleting merchant stock of squid ink across Brittania (one reason shopping was hard is we were playing in an alternate Earth with an Elf-based Roman empire which was devolving into civil war because Augustus had finally died. Brittania was a backwater, and the continent was a war zone with disciplined leveled armies, centurians and tribunes having double digit character levels).

I had a couple points when my spellbook scribing ended for lack of materials, and used downtime to craft a few key items instead. On the plus side, we DID capture a literal Forge of Vulcan around level 9, and had plenty of raw matrials for weaponcrafting when I had the time for it...(my crafter wizard was a lay priest of Vulcan and favored fire, crafting spells like Stone Shape and Fabricate, as well as enhancement spells like Greater Magic Weapon)

It was a campaign which was a trial of frustrated crafting talent for my character when adventuring but I know my character retired happy. One of the last things that happened in that campaign was our party diplomancer taking the last serious threat protecting the boss (a gigantic fire elemental) to set up shop in my forge instead.... "How come you are working for such...flammable.. creatures? Do they appreciate you or just use you to burn enemies? How would you like to work as a valued skilled craftsbeing to forge items of power and beauty? Also, we have a plan that can probably kill you in a few seconds next time we teleport in. Which would be a shame." (A Paladin of a Death god who had both diplomacy and intimidate maxxed...and greater heroism and limited wish boosting her attempt)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You can make alternate scrolls without using the normal materials for them -- for instance, carved runes in stone. So don't let lack of materials ruin your ability to learn new spells or craft "scrolls." Unless stone becomes hard to come by for some reason? I mean, it's not like you can't literally pick them up off the ground.

[noob]

You can make alternate scrolls without using the normal materials for them -- for instance, carved runes in stone. So don't let lack of materials ruin your ability to learn new spells or craft "scrolls." Unless stone becomes hard to come by for some reason? I mean, it's not like you can't literally pick them up off the ground.

You still need to pay a lot of gold to make them.
If we are lucky all you need is to engrave your rocks with gold which is plenty-full.

[Kazyan]

You still need to pay a lot of gold to make them.
If we are lucky all you need is to engrave your rocks with gold which is plenty-full.

Gold is very malleable. I'm imagining a spellbook made out of pages of gold, beaten very very finely.

It gives the melee character and their 2d6+68 bludgeoning damage something to do.

[Seward]

You can make alternate scrolls

This was wayyyy back in 3.0 days and GM wasn't fan of noncore. You can do what GM allows. Spellbook/scroll ink in his world required squid ink. I might have researched an alternative (I had alchemy, spellcraft etc) but again, no downtime.

[danielxcutter]

The game does feel like it was designed somewhat around the DM giving their players some downtime - not necessarily a lot, but looking at the Dungeon Magazine adventure paths like Shackled City the players are given pretty good amounts of downtime between big encounters unless it's the final stretch of things like the war against Demogorgon in Savage Tide or defending the city and stopping Kyuss' ascension in Age of Worms.

[Zanos]

The game does feel like it was designed somewhat around the DM giving their players some downtime - not necessarily a lot, but looking at the Dungeon Magazine adventure paths like Shackled City the players are given pretty good amounts of downtime between big encounters unless it's the final stretch of things like the war against Demogorgon in Savage Tide or defending the city and stopping Kyuss' ascension in Age of Worms.
I've complained about this in detail, but yes, it is. The game actually expects the party to spend far more time in downtime than adventuring, since most people would pretty quickly lose their minds if every single day was life or death. The DMG example downtime is that a character might need 1 week of training per 2 levels of experience to apply a new level. So a character that reaches level 10 would need a minimum of five weeks off to even apply his experience. Even the, epic heroes version is between 1d4 days or 1 day per class level. High level magic items and specific magic weapons probably do not just gather dust on shelves, they're more likely made to order, and upgrading your +1 great sword to +1 valorous warning or whatever could take weeks or months depending on the cost of the upgrade. And there almost certainly aren't any magic item crafters who are making items that cost tens or thousands of gold and then putting them on shelves to gather dust; they would probably have to be commissioned. The default method of play is not to string around players from 1-20 on whatever adventures the DM feels like running, the PCs go from adventure to adventure and have a good amount of control over where they go and when, and a smart DM accounts for that.


Not to say that means this thread has no value. I have played with many DMs and many players who, despite no time pressure on the actual characters, have a burning need to fill every single second of the characters lives with content, and the ability to timeskip a few weeks or months as the characters train, relax, socialize, craft, drink, or wait on commissions just doesn't exist. As written, and as run by a good DM, the wizard taking a few days to scribe spells in his spellbook is not a real cost. But with some groups you have to kick and claw and scream to get even a single day where something isn't being murdered.

[Mordante]

So, just some idle questions.

I've played a few campaigns or adventures when there is an extremely tight timeline of events.

Unfortunately, the first (and to date, only) time I played a Wizard in 3.5, was in one such adventure. I had no downtime to scribe spells into my book, and basically only ended up knowing the 2 bonus spells each level.

"Default play" assumes downtime for things like this, plus crafting magic items etc.

If you were to build an optimized party that has no need for downtime, what would it be?

Cleric or Druid seems obvious, since they can access their entire spell list and only need to pray once each day.

ToB types similarly shouldn't need downtime.

What 4 person party would you build around this?

All Clerics/Druids is the obvious answer, but try to think outside the box.

Cheers - T

Out of curiosity. Is playing with down-time really the default? I have never played an RPG where we used down-time. I always considered crafting and scribe scroll as NPC skills.

[Seward]

Wizards are assumed by class mechanics to have at least enough downtime to scribe spells into spellbook and at least some scrolls (as scribe scroll is a class feature)

It is safe to say that if crafting feats are something GM lets PCs take GM will have reasonable breaks for crafting, or they are being a bit of a jerk, unless player is told minimal downtime and takes feats anyway (as I did for largely roleplay reasons, although I treasured every opportunity to craft that I found). It's basically the same thing as allowing a player to invest in mounted combat feats and a warhorse class feature and then always have adventures in narrow caverns, underwater, inside buildings where horses are not allowed etc.

Occasionally disrupting the norm is fine (heavy armor guy ambushed while sleeping or having to travel by boat and attacked in a storm). Almost ALWAYS disrupting the norm is something good GMS warn players about. (and if you always intend to make a feat useless, don't let pc take it and if a class feature let them choose something else of similar utility instead)

As an example, Living Greyhawk allowed crafting, but only between play sessions and only if you finished adventures and only stuff your character had encountered during play, plus a limited number of basic items all adventurers need (cloak resistance, enh bonuses to armor, etc). Crafting feats were quite popular, trading a feat for much better WBL in one gear category. At higher levels a few crafted stuff other party members MIGHT use, stored in portable hole or similar, as they had money and not much left to spend it on for themself. (parties were mustered for each adventure, you don't know who will be there or what kind of character they bring to table beyond being +/-2 lvls from adventure expected level)

In Pathfinder Society, crafting is not allowed and wizards get a wizard bonus feat instead of scribe scroll at L1.

In my 3.0 campaign I played where downtime was quite limited (and GM didn't think to warn us out of ...new game system inexperience) I played a wizard raised by a brewmaster, and a lay priest of Vulcan, she saw no difference beween cooking soup or a potion, writing a letter or a scroll or forging a blade and forging a keen, flaming blade. So...I had crafting feats, which mostly went unused, but I did get two major downtime periods between story arcs where she made some important items that probably justified the investment, especially as I could use money from other characters to craft stuff for them (unlike Living Greyhawk, where money is strictly individual). Basically I helped party WBL with my feats, but only at two specific points in the campaign.

[Zanos]

Out of curiosity. Is playing with down-time really the default? I have never played an RPG where we used down-time. I always considered crafting and scribe scroll as NPC skills.
Yes. There's a reason wizards get scribe scroll for free at level 1. The DMG is written with the assumption of substantial downtime.

[Mordante]

Yes. There's a reason wizards get scribe scroll for free at level 1. The DMG is written with the assumption of substantial downtime.

I'm not a DnD veteran. Been playing 3.5 for about 5 years now, maybe longer. I play and GM in 3 different groups. So far in none of these groups have we crafted anything nor have we have used the skill scribe scroll. But maybe we have some unwritten house rules. We largely ignore spell components as well as use magic device.

I had a look once at the crafting rules and found them hopelessly complicated. Most require a fully equipped lab/workspace which can costs thousands of gold coins and are build in a place you may only visit seldom.

[rel]

I'm not a DnD veteran. Been playing 3.5 for about 5 years now, maybe longer. I play and GM in 3 different groups. So far in none of these groups have we crafted anything nor have we have used the skill scribe scroll. But maybe we have some unwritten house rules. We largely ignore spell components as well as use magic device.

I had a look once at the crafting rules and found them hopelessly complicated. Most require a fully equipped lab/workspace which can costs thousands of gold coins and are build in a place you may only visit seldom.

It's important to note that there are two separate crafting systems in 3.5, the mundane crafting system and the magic crafting system.

The mundane crafting system makes use of the craft skill. It was clearly designed for NPC's and it shows.
- Progress is painfully slow with crafting projects easily taking months or even years
- the skill is split into multiple poorly defined sub skills. Figuring out what someone can craft is basically up to the GM
- equipment and material requirements and their portability are likewise poorly defined a lot of the time.
- its also not guaranteed, skill checks are called for to make progress

Then there is the magic system, clearly designed for the players
- crafting time is fast. a lot of common items can be made in a day and it is the rare item that can't be made with a few weeks off.
- its insanely expensive, you will have to bankrupt a few kingdoms to outfit the party
- it requires very few tools and they are all easily sourced and carried by even a strength 8 wizard going dungeon delving.

[tiercel]

Yes. There's a reason wizards get scribe scroll for free at level 1. The DMG is written with the assumption of substantial downtime.

It’s a likely assumption on average, but there are notable exceptions: any module or Adventure Path that includes any kind of a ticking-clock scenario (e.g. Red Hand of Doom, which has the advance of an invading army on a literal timeline) or at least the reasonable perception of one (e.g. Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, once the PCs learn that cultists are actively working toward ending the world, are they likely to nip off for a couple weeks of upgrading magical swords or playing drownball), much less the “far away from everything” plotlines (e.g. Savage Tide, albeit eventually ameliorated to the extent that teleportation/planar travel is accessible, allowable, and not time/RP constrained from shopping trips)

[Gnaeus]

I'm not a DnD veteran. Been playing 3.5 for about 5 years now, maybe longer. I play and GM in 3 different groups. So far in none of these groups have we crafted anything nor have we have used the skill scribe scroll. But maybe we have some unwritten house rules. We largely ignore spell components as well as use magic device.

I had a look once at the crafting rules and found them hopelessly complicated. Most require a fully equipped lab/workspace which can costs thousands of gold coins and are build in a place you may only visit seldom.


Out of curiosity. Is playing with down-time really the default? I have never played an RPG where we used down-time. I always considered crafting and scribe scroll as NPC skills.


Treasure? I can't remember the last time there was a treasure at the end of a quest. Non of the characters in my level 16 party are powerful enough to set up a lord anywhere. My level 16 fighter doesn't own anything he can't carry. Before he took up adventuring again, the land was in turmoil he was just a drunk bouncer in a bar. No one knows him. he tends to disappear between adventure. Gambles his money away, a few visits to the local red house. Then when something happens he picks up his gear and tries to solve the troubles if he can and if he can be bothered. He has maybe a few hundred gold in cash.

1. As has been previously pointed out, multiple times, Mordante’s games are a radical outlier. Very few of the assumptions the game makes or that we make about a typical game apply to his group. Add it to the list.

2. If you have no treasure, you can’t craft. So yeah, at your table, it’s a bad feat. Crafting is incredibly useful at a low WBL table, or a WBL generated by random chart table. Not a “I own nothing but my weapons and quickly dump any gold I may accidentally have acquired in my low loot game” table. In a game with time, which you apparently have, and money, which you apparently don’t, the crafting feats, especially wondrous items, are among the most powerful feats in the game, potentially doubling your cash rewards and allowing GP for GP trading of items you have but don’t need to the exact items you want.

3. That time when you vanish into the bar and wait for the next adventure while offloading treasure into the local economy is downtime. You just aren’t doing anything advantageous with it. The casters could be crafting then, if they wanted, and if they had gold. Or they could be doing something to make money until they could craft.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Protip: You can find valuable stuff practically anywhere. Do you realize how valuable that Trapped Evil Temple™ is? Go look up Trapped Evil Temples™ in the Stronghold Builder's Guide and find out. So grab the Ancestral Relic feat, destroy all the cultists living there, then sacrifice the whole thing to your relic. No, your relic doesn't care that it can't be (easily) moved. You can still sacrifice the (literally) damned thing.

[Troacctid]

Protip: You can find valuable stuff practically anywhere. Do you realize how valuable that Trapped Evil Temple™ is? Go look up Trapped Evil Temples™ in the Stronghold Builder's Guide and find out. So grab the Ancestral Relic feat, destroy all the cultists living there, then sacrifice the whole thing to your relic. No, your relic doesn't care that it can't be (easily) moved. You can still sacrifice the (literally) damned thing.
That's either a very disingenuous way of describing the feat or a very suspiciously loose definition of a consecrated or hallowed location.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

That's either a very disingenuous way of describing the feat or a very suspiciously loose definition of a consecrated or hallowed location.Cast consecrate or hallow and have a little portable shrine with you. You can sacrifice anything with an appreciable value. Why not sacrifice a building or a magical effect that's worth money? Consecrate in particular shouldn't be hard to get hold of, considering it's a 2nd level spell, and clerics are fairly easy to find -- having one in the party is pretty standard for most groups.

[Troacctid]

Cast consecrate or hallow and have a little portable shrine with you. You can sacrifice anything with an appreciable value. Why not sacrifice a building or a magical effect that's worth money? Consecrate in particular shouldn't be hard to get hold of, considering it's a 2nd level spell, and clerics are fairly easy to find -- having one in the party is pretty standard for most groups.
Or in other words:

"Just take Ancestral Relic and you can sacrifice the entire evil temple!"
[conspicuously failing to mention that this also requires 9 levels of cleric and thousands of gold in additional components for hallow spells]
I personally would call that a highly misleading omission. Your relic DOES care that it can't easily be moved—in fact it cares quite a lot, since it explicitly requires you to "retreat to a consecrated or hallowed location," and an evil temple is the literal opposite of that. And no, you can't just consecrate the evil temple. You need a full hallow spell, which doesn't even cover the whole stronghold unless it's very small (SBG 55). And if you have the time, money, and spellcasting levels to do that, why aren't you just taking normal crafting feats?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Or in other words:

I personally would call that a highly misleading omission. Your relic DOES care that it can't easily be moved—in fact it cares quite a lot, since it explicitly requires you to "retreat to a consecrated or hallowed location," and an evil temple is the literal opposite of that. And no, you can't just consecrate the evil temple. You need a full hallow spell, which doesn't even cover the whole stronghold unless it's very small (SBG 55). And if you have the time, money, and spellcasting levels to do that, why aren't you just taking normal crafting feats?Or, y'know, have the party cleric cast a 2nd level spell. And it's not the relic that can't be moved, it's the thing you're sacrificing to it. Depending on what you pick, whatever relic you've got is most likely just fine wherever you are. A portable consecrated (as the spell) altar should be sufficient, so long as the altar is sufficiently portable.

If you can't go to the altar, take the altar with you.

[Maat Mons]

Looking over the Ancestral Relic feat, I see that you must spend one day per 1,000 gp sacrificed. And on each of those days, you must spend 8 hours in prayer. How is this getting around the problem of not having downtime?

[Troacctid]

Or, y'know, have the party cleric cast a 2nd level spell.
...Which won't work, because consecrate cannot consecrate an evil temple.

[rel]

the feat does specify consecrated or hallowed. And setting up a suitable location for casting consecrate doesn't seem impossible for an adventuring party of at least 3rd level.

I'm more interested in what sacrificing actually entails.
Ritually destroying?
Laying upon the altar and calling upon the spirits in your holy relic?

Whatever the activity is, its probably difficult to apply to an entire building.

That being said, ancestral relic is still a very good option if the GM prohibits shopping or if your party is lacking a crafter.
The average temple is full of expensive fixtures, and cultists tend to have shiny magical gear, all of which can be gathered and dragged back to town or to your personally consecrated safehouse.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Looking over the Ancestral Relic feat, I see that you must spend one day per 1,000 gp sacrificed. And on each of those days, you must spend 8 hours in prayer. How is this getting around the problem of not having downtime?Lots of characters don't need to sleep. Manifesters and arcane casters do (more so arcanists than manifesters, who have tons of ways to restore their power points), but technically nobody else does, so long as you're willing to put up with some fatigue. Or if you have some way of dealing with fatigue that isn't 8 hours of sleep, such as a ring of sustenance, Heward's fortifying bedroll, lesser restoration, being a warforged or other race who doesn't need to sleep, etc.


...Which won't work, because consecrate cannot consecrate an evil temple.Just stay 20' away from the actual altar and/or shrine, and you're golden, especially if, like so many such places, the building wasn't built as a temple but was taken over by a cult. (Since, y'know, torches and pitchforks tend to come out when villagers know there's an evil cult around.) Then just destroy the altar itself, which you'll likely do anyway, leaving you free to sacrifice buildings and fountains and traps and stuff. Plus there are tons of other things to sacrifice that aren't specifically evil temples, such as non-magical weapons and armor, which you probably wouldn't bother trying to sell anyway but can still be sacrificed on your consecrated porta-altar.

Point is, if you're willing to put in just a smidgen of thought and effort, Ancestral Relic is great for anyone who doesn't have large amounts of time or WBL in their campaign.

[Lilapop]

technically nobody else does, so long as you're willing to put up with some fatigue.

Seen this a few times recently, both in this thread and elsewhere, but I can't find any general 3.5 rule that says not sleeping applies fatigue. There is a mention in the DMG using it as an example for rules the DM may have to make up on the fly (and it proposes falling asleep against your will as the penalty, not fatigue), and there are some obscure mechanics with their own specific rules from which you could extrapolate - but without that flaw, or that other thing, there doesn't seem to be ANY penalty for staying awake forever.

So where does the fatigue assumption come from?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Seen this a few times recently, both in this thread and elsewhere, but I can't find any general 3.5 rule that says not sleeping applies fatigue. There is a mention in the DMG using it as an example for rules the DM may have to make up on the fly (and it proposes falling asleep against your will as the penalty, not fatigue), and there are some obscure mechanics with their own specific rules from which you could extrapolate - but without that flaw, or that other thing, there doesn't seem to be ANY penalty for staying awake forever.

So where does the fatigue assumption come from?The rule that states that the world acts like it does IRL unless stated otherwise, if nothing else.