Dragon PC advice

[Warder]

Hey, so, I know this is one of those topics that's been brought up hundreds of times ever since the dawn of D&D, but it's not Council of Wyrms now, it's 5e and it's come up at our table.

The background to this is a bit convoluted, but one of the other players at our table recently had their player character pass away, and in looking for a new concept they approached me (another player) and the DM with the idea of playing a dragon, specifically a silver dragon. The DM was skeptical, but when the player explained that she didn't actually want dragon stats - she'd permanently stay in elven form, and have the stats and mechanics of a regular elf PC with regular class levels - he warmed up to the idea.

The gist is that she wants the story beats and the odd not-quite-humanoid mindset of a dragon who impersonates an elf, and then perhaps a big reveal moment to the rest of the party down the line. The DM asked me what I thought, and I think she's a good roleplayer and able to handle it, but I also said that I feel that a dragon who is not ever being able to turn into a dragon feels sort of watered down. We're not fussed about keeping an absolute balance or anything, but also don't want any one PC to completely overshadow the rest. We're in tier 2 of play now and although the DM aims all the way for tier 4, we all know that doesn't always happen.

Do you guys have any advice for how this could be handled? At what level would a young dragon form be cool but not terribly overpowered anymore? Are there any obvious pitfalls we're missing, or any cool opportunities we could make use of? Or should she make a draconic sorcerer and be done with it? I want to help our DM with this as best I can, especially since this will be the first time he DMs at higher tiers of play. Thank you!

[Sigreid]

The easy answers are, of course Dragon sorcerer or the new dragon ranger to represent their continuing bond with their draconic ranger.

Alternately, if it was me DMing, I'd consider letting him play a young dragon picking up levels going forward. Would take some work, to sort it out, but it could be fun.

[Naanomi]

Winged Dragonborn monk reskinned?

[Amnestic]

Do you guys have any advice for how this could be handled? At what level would a young dragon form be cool but not terribly overpowered anymore? Are there any obvious pitfalls we're missing, or any cool opportunities we could make use of? Or should she make a draconic sorcerer and be done with it? I want to help our DM with this as best I can, especially since this will be the first time he DMs at higher tiers of play. Thank you!

Quietly slides my Circle of the Scale (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/8eq0iwlFXGqD) druid homebrew into the thread...

I think if they're a dragon, they should have a dragon form. If you don't want to go full subclass, then trading 'elemental' forms for 'dragon' forms on a moon druid might work as a quick+easy fix.
If they want to stay sorcerer, consider trading off their 6th level feature to give them a Draconic Wildshape feature instead.

[GreyBlack]

Hey, so, I know this is one of those topics that's been brought up hundreds of times ever since the dawn of D&D, but it's not Council of Wyrms now, it's 5e and it's come up at our table.

The background to this is a bit convoluted, but one of the other players at our table recently had their player character pass away, and in looking for a new concept they approached me (another player) and the DM with the idea of playing a dragon, specifically a silver dragon. The DM was skeptical, but when the player explained that she didn't actually want dragon stats - she'd permanently stay in elven form, and have the stats and mechanics of a regular elf PC with regular class levels - he warmed up to the idea.

The gist is that she wants the story beats and the odd not-quite-humanoid mindset of a dragon who impersonates an elf, and then perhaps a big reveal moment to the rest of the party down the line. The DM asked me what I thought, and I think she's a good roleplayer and able to handle it, but I also said that I feel that a dragon who is not ever being able to turn into a dragon feels sort of watered down. We're not fussed about keeping an absolute balance or anything, but also don't want any one PC to completely overshadow the rest. We're in tier 2 of play now and although the DM aims all the way for tier 4, we all know that doesn't always happen.

Do you guys have any advice for how this could be handled? At what level would a young dragon form be cool but not terribly overpowered anymore? Are there any obvious pitfalls we're missing, or any cool opportunities we could make use of? Or should she make a draconic sorcerer and be done with it? I want to help our DM with this as best I can, especially since this will be the first time he DMs at higher tiers of play. Thank you!

I think your DM handled it well here. Sure, it feels watered down, but this is a pretty cool idea for the PC, and as long as the PC is on board with playing a Silver Dragon turned into an Elf permanently, then more power to them.

However, one idea I've toyed with is actually just turning the Dragonborn race into just a race of Dragonlings/wyrmling dragons. If a player was okay with the idea of refluffing a Dragonborn into a wyrmling dragon, then that'd be cool.

[rlc]

i think attack drakes and pseudodragons are low enough cr for sidekick levels, but i'd probably just go with the dragon sorcerer or monk, like what's already been suggested. then, you can just say that you don't just have a dragon ancestor, but you are an actual dragon.

[Warder]

The easy answers are, of course Dragon sorcerer or the new dragon ranger to represent their continuing bond with their draconic ranger.

Alternately, if it was me DMing, I'd consider letting him play a young dragon picking up levels going forward. Would take some work, to sort it out, but it could be fun.

I think it'd be fun too, but young dragons are really strong. It's a 16 hit die creature with a crazy strong dragon breath - might be appropriate after the big reveal, but I think that big reveal would have to be at a pretty high level, then.


Winged Dragonborn monk reskinned?

Sorry, I totally should've mentioned - one of the big caveats the DM has is that a dragon needs to be a dragon, no trying to fit a dragon-shaped peg into a PC class-shaped hole. Otherwise it's a great idea!

I know it's a tricky question since monster stat blocks and PCs are intentionally not equivalent, but there's stuff like Shapechange and True Polymorph at 17 so I feel like this should be possible, I'm just not quite there yet.

[Sigreid]

I think it'd be fun too, but young dragons are really strong. It's a 16 hit die creature with a crazy strong dragon breath - might be appropriate after the big reveal, but I think that big reveal would have to be at a pretty high level, then.



Sorry, I totally should've mentioned - one of the big caveats the DM has is that a dragon needs to be a dragon, no trying to fit a dragon-shaped peg into a PC class-shaped hole. Otherwise it's a great idea!

I know it's a tricky question since monster stat blocks and PCs are intentionally not equivalent, but there's stuff like Shapechange and True Polymorph at 17 so I feel like this should be possible, I'm just not quite there yet.

The DM could also have them cursed, and when the rest of the players get their levels, a little bit more draconic power is unleased. The DM would just have to define what is equivalent (roughly) of what the other party members are capable of.

[Warder]

Quietly slides my Circle of the Scale (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/8eq0iwlFXGqD) druid homebrew into the thread...

I think if they're a dragon, they should have a dragon form. If you don't want to go full subclass, then trading 'elemental' forms for 'dragon' forms on a moon druid might work as a quick+easy fix.
If they want to stay sorcerer, consider trading off their 6th level feature to give them a Draconic Wildshape feature instead.

That's actually a really cool subclass! I will forward it to them both and see what they say, though I think she has her heart set on sorc or wizard.


I think your DM handled it well here. Sure, it feels watered down, but this is a pretty cool idea for the PC, and as long as the PC is on board with playing a Silver Dragon turned into an Elf permanently, then more power to them.

Yeah, I sort of threw a spanner into the works since they already had a solution they both liked, I guess. Could be a proper dragon shape would come out In Case of Plot™ and just save it for that, really.

Thanks for the replies, everyone, I feel a bit out of my depth here so all the advice is useful.

[Seekergeek]

Honestly, depending on the level you're playing at I'd be tempted to let the player full on play a wyrmling with the first six levels applied to the dragon. My table is likewise not terribly concerned about perfect balance (mostly because it already sort of doesn't exist in 5e and also because it's a collaberative team game for us). I'd toss in the change shape ability from the adult large dragon but limit it to one form. If anything, I think this would feel pretty aenemic compared to a PC of equal level once you passed level 8 or so.

[strangebloke]

So I think the first thing you want to do is figure out a reason for the Dragon PC to not be a young dragon from the start. Sure, you can justify some of this as "hiding her true power" but IMO that's a bad idea because... well, if the party members are dying or at risk of dying, why isn't she revealing her power? Why is she lying on the ground unconcious after taking a hit if she's actually a 16 hit die monster?

Fluffwise, this is simple. She's been cursed, she's had her blood drained by an evil sorcerer, or she's just particularly anemic for her species. So in terms of class and abilities she might be a hulking barbarian with a d12 hit dice and +4 CON, but by dragon standards she's a weakling runt.

IMO she should never simply become a young dragon as per the monster manual statblock. Not because its overpowered as such (I think it'd be fair in mid to late t3?) but because its just kind of boring. Monster stat blocks are very simple and it'd be weird for her to discard all her other abilities. Get her a class/subclass that allows her to simulate the abilities of a dragon and stick with that, possibly giving her some sort of hidden boost as a result of her nature. Enough to make the other players go, "what, how are you doing that??"

Some ideas:

Play a dragonborn or tortle in terms of stats but have the character look like an elf. The deceptively high natural AC of the tortle really works well for this, but so do the draconic racial feats (which you can give her for free without breaking anything under the caveat that she can't use them openly until the reveal.)
Refluffed Rune Knight, with the enlargening being her natural shapechanging at work and the runes being draconic blood magic. Hidden buff is that she actually has permanent flying. (note that fighter will let her take a ton of those racial feats as well as things like gift of the metallic if you don't want to give her those feats for free.)
Play a barbarian, which gives you general toughness and power in keeping with her actually being a dragon. Just go for something generic like berserker IMO to throw people off.


IMO at least, a dragonborn barbarian with dragon hide/fear/wings, gift of the metallic, and three levels of rune knight to get big is going to feel pretty dang like an actual dragon, especially if a lot of the draconic features were given to her for free.

Though as far as that goes, the dragonborn feats and racial features don't need to be given as such, that's just a simple shorthand. You can just as easily make up your own special race here. It's fine to make it blatantly overpowered because you're just doing it for this one character and she's going to try to pass herself as an elf for a while. (plus its easy to 'balance' this simply by having her come in without magic items) Something like:

Dragon Runt
Some dragons have their development stunted. Either because of a magical curse, or a defect in the bloodline, or negative environmental factors, they never grow to their full size. The disadvantages these dragons are born with do not stop them from seeking their own path in life however, and many become adventurers, seeking power in the manner that mortals do.

Ability Scores: Your Strength, Constitution, and Charisma increase by one.
Shapechange: You have two forms, one being an elf or a human, and one being a medium-sized dragon. You can switch between forms as an action.
Draconic Ancestry: (as per dragonborn)
Breath Weapon: When in dragon form, you can use your action to exhale destructive energy. It deals damage in an area according to your ancestry. When you use your breath weapon, all creatures in the area must make a saving throw, the type of which is determined by your ancestry. The DC of this saving throw is 8 + your Constitution modifier + your proficiency bonus. A creature takes 4d6 damage on a failed save, and half as much damage on a successful one. The damage increase to 6d6 at 6th level, 8d6 at 11th, and 10d6 at 16th level. After using your breath weapon, you cannot use it again until you complete a short or long rest.
Natural Armor: Your AC can be calculated as 13+proficiency.
Wings: While in dragon form, you have a fly speed equal to your movement.


Is the above overpowered? Absolutely! But given the RP restrictions at play here I think it works well since only the defensive components will be able to be leveraged until "the reveal."

[Dark.Revenant]

For a short 11th-level campaign, I created a variant human Beast Barbarian who's actually an adult white dragon in shapeshifted form. The humanoid form is actually far more powerful than the true dragon form, because of being exhausted and de-powered by the eternal summer that has come over her territory. She's basically stuck being humanoid in order to survive long enough to end the eternal summer.

Generally speaking, the sheer power and utility of having a draconic form on tap isn't really possible to balance in the traditional sense. You basically have three options, which you can pick one or multiple of:

Contrive a means for the draconic form to not be a major upgrade in power
Create a custom class or subclass that offers potentially-transformative abilities, in line with typical PC power budgets
Grant the draconic abilities to the PC as though it were a powerful magic item or epic boon, and make sure the rest of the party has access to their own similar upgrades, in whatever form they might take


Alternatively, you can just make a gentleman's agreement: the true form will never be used, for reasons. The end.

[Warder]

Thanks for the replies, everyone - there are some great ideas in this thread and I think that all the different directions people took with this is a testament to the helpfulness of the GitP crowd. The decision was made and she'll just be playing perma-elf and any transformation will happen purely for plot purposes later, so not a lot of difference from the original plan mechanically. However, we discussed all the stuff that's been said here and we all agreed that "holding back the true power" is a bad excuse and we can do better. That "silver dragons enjoy the company of mortals who don't know that they are dragons" is a good start, at least. Also, DM said that she will have cold immunity, mainly as a smoking gun for the rest of the party to figure out that something is off.

This was really helpful!