Optimizing Chameleon for higher levels

[Jervis]

Hello all. I’m here today to talk theorycraft for everyone’s favorite indecisive class mobility advocate, Chameleon. The class is pretty fun when you get it, a spell level behind a dedicated caster but you have ridiculous spell access. Not only does this give Druid and Cleric, BUT you can also yoink any spell from wizard list, preparing as a cleric with wisdom as the casting stat. Reason being Divine Focus has the very generous wording of “can be chosen from the list of any divine spellcasting class.” As always, Sha’ir is the key to abilities many consider to be unnatural. That trivial domain spell access allows for a lot of cheese.

But that leaves some problems for when a campaign goes too long. Once you past 15th level you’ll find yourself casting 6th level spells when everyone else is casting 8ths, two levels off 9ths. I’m trying to fix that. Are there any RAW legal ways to expand past max spell level pre-epic? I know Dragonwroght Kobold cheese but that’s rough and doesn’t allow for chameleon anyway. I have two ways that I think could work, namely the Extra Slot feat and Dragon Disciple in conjunction with some method of spell level cheese.

Assumptions: being able to cast a spell means being able to cast a spell at that level. That is to say, a spell cast as a 2nd level qualifies as being able to cast 2nd level spells.

Now for build theory. For ability scores we need a minimum of 11 charisma. Wisdom and Intelligence are what we need to pump through the roof. And we need to be a human, or a human subrace that is. I’m addition to this we need some way to cheese technically higher level spells than we have slots for.

So obviously, we’re an Illumian. Krau + whatever Sigil you want. This gives us a CL boost, eligibility for human related feats and PrCs, and stinky stinky cheese that is gonna come online later.

Level 1 Factotum (Able Learner feat)
This gives us literally every skill in the game as class skills forever. I won’t be mentioning skill rank distribution, you have more than enough points to meet the milestones by 6th.

Level 2 Factotum

Level 3 Sorcerer (Improved Sigil Krau)
Remember when I said we needed 11 charisma? This is why. ISK doesn’t come online until much later but we might as well take it now. And sorcerer itself isn’t very useful but we need it for something later, this is your license to take all the ACFs and grab more HP and armor profs.

Level 4-5 Factotum
Not much to say here, good skill points and features. Just make sure to hit skill point milestones.

Level 6 Chameleon (Heighten Spell)
Heighten spell is another thing that doesn’t come online til much later. You might not actually need it but i’m using both easily accessible means of breaking spell limit cap I know of on this build. If the primary method works, congrats, take a crafting feat. Oh and chameleon levels, that’s cool.

Level 7-8 Chameleon

Level 9 Chameleon (Easy metamagic Heighten)
Yes you saw that. Raw this in conjunction with ISK lets you heighten a 1st level spell into a 3rd level spell that’s cast as a 4th level spell with a 2nd level slot. Assuming you picked said second level spell as a spell to be boosted by ISK anyway. If Dragon Mag content isn’t allowed then you’ll need to apply a template that gives dragonblooded and pick up practical metamagic or use some other metamagic cost reducer. You don’t need to reduce it to +0, just need a way to make heighten cheaper than the actual level you make.

Level 10-15 Chameleon (floating feats + Extra slot)
Pick whatever you want really. At least for the first one. Extra slot in the second one, assuming one ISK spell is 5th or lower and is getting heightened to 7th with a 6th level slot, you get a 7th level slot.

Level 16-17 Dragon Disciple
At this point you can safely move one of your ISK slots to 7th. That’s a 8th level spell for you now for all intents and purposes. This, dragon disciple lets nab a 8th level slot. Move ISK to a 8th level spell as soon as this happens, meaning you have one 9th level spell level hen you take your send level of DD and congrats, 9th level slots at the same level as the big boys. Granted it’s only one of 7-9 but you can get bonus spells from extra slot and high wisdom/Int. Was it worth it? Maybe.

Level 18-20 (whatever feat you want)
You’ve hit the benchmark for a effective Theurge. Enjoy your cake.

So, any thoughts on how I can improve this?

[thethird]

I like to play chameleons a lot.

On optimization check the handbook (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=135.0) it has some tips on getting higher lvl slots.

My chameleon go to build tends to assume partial bab/saves and be monk 2 / factotum 3 into chameleon 2 / uncanny trickser 3 (advancing chameleon) / legacy champion 10 (advancing uncanny trickster; which in turn advances chameleon). For effectively 12 chameleon levels (and 11 uncanny trickster levels) that gets you a CL of 24 for chameleon spells and 11 skill tricks). Grab a custom legacy item and put a lot of metamagic abilities on it and go to town.

[bekeleven]

This is a similar trick to the Chameleon Bootstrapper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?425036), although I hadn't thought about Dragon Disciple for permanent slots. Also this is closer to the PO side, whereas the bootstrapper is solidly TO.

[Crake]

I like to play chameleons a lot.

On optimization check the handbook (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=135.0) it has some tips on getting higher lvl slots.

My chameleon go to build tends to assume partial bab/saves and be monk 2 / factotum 3 into chameleon 2 / uncanny trickser 3 (advancing chameleon) / legacy champion 10 (advancing uncanny trickster; which in turn advances chameleon). For effectively 12 chameleon levels (and 11 uncanny trickster levels) that gets you a CL of 24 for chameleon spells and 11 skill tricks). Grab a custom legacy item and put a lot of metamagic abilities on it and go to town.

Yup, with the methods in that thread, you can get 9th level spells as early as level 9 if you can snag 2 flaws, with dual 9s as early as level 12 even without flaws, so you can easily be way ahead of the curve in terms of casting.

Don't forget for your divine spells you have access to literally every divine spell in existence, while your arcane spells, you can use your floating bonus feat to add a new spell into your spellbook every day, so each day of downtime is a free spell in your spellbook. Bonus points if you snag a single level of wizard before entering chameleon, and get the eidetic spellcaster ACF to eventually have literally every arcane spell in your head available to prepare at your whim, and every divine spell available at your hand to prepare each morning.

[Jervis]

Yup, with the methods in that thread, you can get 9th level spells as early as level 9 if you can snag 2 flaws, with dual 9s as early as level 12 even without flaws, so you can easily be way ahead of the curve in terms of casting.

Don't forget for your divine spells you have access to literally every divine spell in existence, while your arcane spells, you can use your floating bonus feat to add a new spell into your spellbook every day, so each day of downtime is a free spell in your spellbook. Bonus points if you snag a single level of wizard before entering chameleon, and get the eidetic spellcaster ACF to eventually have literally every arcane spell in your head available to prepare at your whim, and every divine spell available at your hand to prepare each morning.

I believe Sha’ir also gives all wizard spells on the divine side so you could arguably use that to expand your spellbook. You would need a way to convert arcane to divine spells though. Makes you into this weird reverse archivist.

[Crake]

I believe Sha’ir also gives all wizard spells on the divine side so you could arguably use that to expand your spellbook. You would need a way to convert arcane to divine spells though. Makes you into this weird reverse archivist.

I don't believe that's how Sha'ir works. From the way it reads, you can cast sorcerer/wizard spells as arcane, and the limited domain spells as divine, you can't mix and match lists and arcane/divine how you wish.

Even if it did work that way though, it wouldn't matter, because the Sha'ir itself doesn't have a spell list of it's own, it draws from another's spell list, and the sorcerer/wizard spell list itself is an arcane spell list.

It's ultimately irrelevant though, since, yknow, you have access to literally every spell, and twice the spells/day by having double casting.

[Jervis]

I don't believe that's how Sha'ir works. From the way it reads, you can cast sorcerer/wizard spells as arcane, and the limited domain spells as divine, you can't mix and match lists and arcane/divine how you wish.

Even if it did work that way though, it wouldn't matter, because the Sha'ir itself doesn't have a spell list of it's own, it draws from another's spell list, and the sorcerer/wizard spell list itself is an arcane spell list.

It's ultimately irrelevant though, since, yknow, you have access to literally every spell, and twice the spells/day by having double casting.

Id argue the specific wording of it you can chose from "any divine spellcasting class", which Sha'ir does qualify as. Though the point about them pulling from the wizard list is a fair one. You could interpret it as Sha'ir itself as not having a class spell list. I always just took it as Sha'ir having essentially a identical spell list to Wizard, but i can see your point. DM dependent i guess. But like you said it doesn't matter all that much assuming you manage arcane spell failure.

Actually that does raise a question. How does the spells per day thing work with the twin focuses? I've always assumed you just share the same spells per day, double dipping in bonus spells. Does it really just straight up double spells per day? Amd for that matter how does wonder worker or dragon disciple interact if it does? Was there ever a Raw answer on that? And for that matter is it all arcane/divine classes or any one of them? I keep seeing contradictory information on that.

[Darg]

Id argue the specific wording of it you can chose from "any divine spellcasting class", which Sha'ir does qualify as.

The description of the Sha'ir class calls it an arcane spellcaster. Food for thought is that the "divine spells" that a sha'ir casts still suffer arcane spell failure. Seems to follow the extra domains rule where domain spells are cast as arcane even though they are called divine spells.

[Jervis]

The description of the Sha'ir class calls it an arcane spellcaster. Food for thought is that the "divine spells" that a sha'ir casts still suffer arcane spell failure. Seems to follow the extra domains rule where domain spells are cast as arcane even though they are called divine spells.

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that the Sha'ir's divine spells have ASF. I don't see anything in the class description so i might be missing something. There's a line about "arcane gestures" making a spell fail but keep in mind, taken literally, this would bypass ASF all together and could make their casting fail even in armor with 0 ASF. This is just a line about ASF that every arcane caster has. Besides that it doesn't just mention that they're divine in fluff. There are specific rules regarding retrieval time and DC modification which specifically call out that they are divine spells. IE, they cast divine spells and are a divine caster. IIRC this even effects other prestige classes for them where rainbow servant is pretty terrible for them because the cleric spells stay divine and thus their retrieval mechanic treats them like domain spells but that specific interaction is something i haven't read up on in a while so, eh, i cant remember for certain.

I know its a contentious issue for some reason but when the class itself calls them divine, has rules calling them divine, has fluff calling them divine, and is based on a class that has always been a divine arcane hybrid(Not applicable in RAW discussion but it's worth mentioning if RAI is involved), i think it's fair to call them a hybrid caster. But that's not a hill i'll die on so i don't feel like arguing it for longer than this paragraph.

That aside, i think the conversation is getting a bit off into the weeds. To bring it back to Chameleon i really need to see how the heck the bonus spells interaction works and how many actual spells you get a day.

[redking]

Bonus points if you snag a single level of wizard before entering chameleon, and get the eidetic spellcaster ACF to eventually have literally every arcane spell in your head available to prepare at your whim, and every divine spell available at your hand to prepare each morning.

You blew my mind with that one. I wonder if there are any other ways to optimize this ACF.

[Crake]

The description of the Sha'ir class calls it an arcane spellcaster.

No it doesn't, it says "A sha'ir is capable of extraordinarily versatile spellcasting because he can use arcane spells as well as a limited selection of divine spells." This means some of it's spells are arcane, and others are divine. Using context clues, I think we can come to the conclusion that the sorc/wizard spells are arcane when prepared, and the domain spells are divine when prepared.


Food for thought is that the "divine spells" that a sha'ir casts still suffer arcane spell failure.

Likewise, no it doesnt, it says "Armor of any type interferes with a sha'ir's arcane gestures, which can cause his spells with somatic components to fail." so it clearly only applies to arcane spells he casts.


Seems to follow the extra domains rule where domain spells are cast as arcane even though they are called divine spells.

See my first point as to why I disagree with this.


Actually that does raise a question. How does the spells per day thing work with the twin focuses? I've always assumed you just share the same spells per day, double dipping in bonus spells. Does it really just straight up double spells per day? Amd for that matter how does wonder worker or dragon disciple interact if it does? Was there ever a Raw answer on that? And for that matter is it all arcane/divine classes or any one of them? I keep seeing contradictory information on that.

I've always run it as two sets of chameleon spells, with the spells/day list dictating both sides. This means that a single "Extra spell slot" feat will actually give you two extra spells per day, before you take into account potentially extra bonus spells from high casting ability scores.


You blew my mind with that one. I wonder if there are any other ways to optimize this ACF.

Thanks :smallbiggrin: it is by far one of my favourite combos, and I allowed a player who was playing a wedded to history character with the Atrophy background to use it. Basically, the fluff was that they were slowly remembering all the spells they had forgotten over the ages, and unlocking their memories faster than they were actually accumulating raw power, hence the ability to cast 9th level spells at level 9, but only with caster level 8 haha.

It was a fun character, but they got retired into an NPC fairly quickly, since, as you can imagine, 9th level spells at level 9 are... kinda broken :smalltongue:

[Darg]

Between commerce, diplomacy, or even war, the sha'ir's arcane traditions could slowly filter across the world.


They feel their magic is superior to other arcane casters because of their flexibility.


The sha'ir provides arcane casting ability to the party.


Armor of any type interferes with a sha'ir's arcane gestures, which can cause his spells with somatic components to fail.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Domain spells are not part of a class' spell list. They are part of their own lists. Can you really call a caster with an arcane spell list with access to domain spell lists a divine caster?

Not to mention that it would be a completely unique ability, especially when it is left unspecified, compared to any other example of arcane spellcasters capable of casting domain spells. In every other case an arcane caster casts domain spells as arcane spells. Just because domain spells are cast as arcane spells it doesn't mean they lose their general classification as divine spells. It also doesn't make sense thematically either as the divine spells come from the same source as the arcane spells, the elemental planes by the familiar.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


No it doesn't, it says "A sha'ir is capable of extraordinarily versatile spellcasting because he can use arcane spells as well as a limited selection of divine spells." This means some of it's spells are arcane, and others are divine. Using context clues, I think we can come to the conclusion that the sorc/wizard spells are arcane when prepared, and the domain spells are divine when prepared.

I don't think we can make the assumption in good faith that the divine spells are cast as divine spells. See above for quotes that puts the context in the court of arcane spellcasting.


Likewise, no it doesnt, it says "Armor of any type interferes with a sha'ir's arcane gestures, which can cause his spells with somatic components to fail." so it clearly only applies to arcane spells he casts.

It doesn't specify that the divine spells are cast as divine spells. Their is no case (other than the sha'ir, but referencing the point of contention is not evidence) where an arcane caster with access to domains cast those domain spells as divine.

[Jervis]

I don't think we can make the assumption in good faith that the divine spells are cast as divine spells. See above for quotes that puts the context in the court of arcane spellcasting.



It doesn't specify that the divine spells are cast as divine spells. Their is no case (other than the sha'ir, but referencing the point of contention is not evidence) where an arcane caster with access to domains cast those domain spells as divine.

No one argued that they aren't arcane casters, just that they are both a Arcane and Divine caster. You referenced mostly favor text there but you're conveniently left out the parts from the spell retrieval rules that break this argument. Ironically you bolded a line that breaks it on its own but there are more.


A sha'ir is capable of extraordinarily versatile spellcasting because he can use arcane spells as well as a limited selection of divine spells

And the lines from the retrieval rules.



Arcane Spell Known: To retrieve an arcane spell that the sha'ir can normally cast (that is, one within his Spells Known repertoire), the gen must search for a number of rounds equal to 1d4 + the spell level.

Arcane Spell Unknown: The sha'ir can cast a spell from the sorcerer/wizard list he does not know but has seen the effects of and identified with a successful Spellcraft check. If the sha'ir seeks to cast such an arcane spell, the gen must search for 1d6 minutes + 1 minute per spell level. A spell so retrieved does not become learned or known for the purposes of the gen retrieving it again.

Divine Spell: Retrieving a divine spell, known or not, takes a gen 1d6 hours + 1 hour per spell level. The gen can retrieve only divine spells from the domains indicated above.

Once a gen is sent out to fetch a spell, it cannot be recalled; it is gone for the duration of the search. To determine its success, the sha'ir must succeed at a DC 20 Diplomacy check, since the gen is acting as a proxy to the elemental powers on behalf of the sha'ir. Modify the sha'ir's Diplomacy check as follows:

+1 per sha'ir level.
+2 if the spell is in the Spells Known category (arcane only).
-2 per level of the desired spell.
-6 if the spell is an unknown divine spell.
-1 per increase in level caused by the use of a metamagic feat.
-2 per attempt after a failed check the gen makes to retrieve the same spell in the same day.


Again your arguments are almost entirely flavor text with your strongest example being a line from the armor proficiencies section listing that arcane spell failure exists. Meanwhile you ignore this a few lines down. And then there's the obvious case of the Fire domain, where retrieving a spell from said domain takes 60 times longer even though most of them are on the wizard list. I honestly don't see a argument for why a spell specifically called out as divine suddenly becomes a arcane spell. If you really want to argue flavor text then i could point out that Sha'ir grab power from other entities and thus fit comfortably into the umbrella of Divine casters, but at that point its not much of a discussion. Sticking strictly to effect text, not the armor proficiency text that just points out that they don't ignore ASF, i don't see an argument for this.

[redking]

A sha'ir is a skilled spellcaster who, with the help of his elemental familiar, can gain access to almost any arcane spell and many divine ones.


A sha'ir is capable of extraordinarily versatile spellcasting because he can use arcane spells as well as a limited selection of divine spells.


The gen can retrieve only divine spells from the domains indicated above

I think the weight of evidence is that the sha'ir casts these domain spells as divine spells. In fact, this is the first time I have seen anyone say that the divine spells retrieved by the sha'ir are cast as arcane spells.

In the case of other arcane casters with access to domain spells, their spells are clearly denoted as arcane spells.