A No-Summon Druid

[Melphizard]

Playing in a higher level Avernus game where we're currently around level 14 and I've come to the realization that I practically only cast Conjure Animals and wish to see if there's a way I could do comparable damage or equivalent control using other Druid spells! I've been using a Battle Standard looted from a Pit Fiend we killed to give them magical attacks and it's been super powerful summoning 16 cows every initiative but my turns take exponentially longer then the other party members and with there being 6 of us, it's no good.

Tl;dr: Stars Druid wants to reject summon and embrace full nature caster potential

[Psyren]

1) Why not use the more modern Tasha/Fizban summon spells instead? One standardized Beast/Elemental/Fey/Dragon instead of the GM needing to bring in 16 cows for you to control should speed things up considerably. If you're a stars druid you at least have access to the former.

2) If you're adamant against all summoning ever, druids have decent blasting options but none that are particularly great. At low levels you'll definitely want your bonus guiding bolts and cantrips along with archer form for some decent damage. At higher levels you'll be using Dragon to help you maintain concentration on something harder-hitting like Wall of Fire or Sunbeam.

[Bobthewizard]

So I have to ask, why always cows? They're not bad, but no wolves, velociraptors, or constrictor snakes? No giant owls or bats for flying enemies? But I do love the ability to cast Wall of Beef. You might be able to have more fun if you just vary the animals. I like to roll randomly to determine what shows up, from a list of 6-8 that I know how to run.

Anyway, if conjure animals is too good of a spell, take other things, but know they won't be as effective.

I like the suggestion for one or two of the Tasha's Summoning spells. Summon Elemental is good if their attacks are magical. I can't wait to see a Summon Draconic Spirit in play.

An upcast moonbeam could be fun, but it does eat your action to move it. But it's a decent use of a 3rd or 4th level slot. Sunbeam is similar for a 6th level slot.

Control spells like sleet storm, plant growth, watery sphere, transmute rock, wall of stone, and bones of the earth are all good.

You won't be as powerful if you are avoiding conjure animals, but you'll have more variety.

[Snowbluff]

At higher levels you'll be using Dragon to help you maintain concentration on something harder-hitting like Wall of Fire or Sunbeam.

Mhm. Moonbeam is very effective against shapeshifters, which there are a few of among the fiend types. It's not as good there as against, say a werewolf or vampire, but it's still very good for its level.

[Sherlockpwns]

I think the way to look at this is by spell level. Since summons are out (btw I’d also just use the new Tasha summons, but let’s ignore that and go true no-summon)

You basically need 1 preferred CC and 1 preferred damage spell per level. Since you are level 14 that means we need 6 sets. Fill the remaining readied spells with whatever seems fun.

6: sunbeam and Druid grove

Investiture of ice is also an option given you are in Avernus. Gives you a lot more durability but a lot less damage. Druid grove is a weird one, but super fun and handy if you manage to keep a spell slot when it’s time for a long rest.

5: cone of cold and wall of stone.

Coc is just a solid aoe blast spell. Wall of stone may be the poor man’s wall of force, but it does one thing force doesn’t. After 10 minutes the wall is permanent. Lots of utility on top of CC value.

4: Polymorph and Confusion

Whoa, I know Polymorph isn’t a damage spell but I can’t pass up the fact that with dragon chalice and the level 14 stars ability you can be a flying t-Rex. If you want to be lame instead: ice storm. Yawn.

Oh and confusion gets **** on sometimes but they forget one thing: NOTHING is immune to it! It is NOT a charm spell! Devils, demons, mindless undead and oozes, it confuses everything and is one of the best CC spells hands down.

3: nothing.

This level is crap for cc and damage, but it has a ton of important utility spells so load up on dispel magic, daylight, revivify, aura of vitality, etc. Nothing against decent spells like plant growth, but avernus is not ideal for it.

2: Moonbeam and Earth Bind

Moonbeam is great against shifters and does decent enough damage. I wouldn’t use it much though. Earth bind assuming your party isn’t full of flying ability. Otherwise hold person (unlikely to be useful where you are but it’s handy if you need it).


1: thunder wave and entangle.

Thunder wave just as a melee aoe with a different damage type. Entangle is the OG of CC so it’s a must.

Then slot in utility and healing with the 9 (if you have 20 wis) slots remaining. I am confident you won’t feel useless and it may be a lot more fun since there are so many more interesting decisions to make!

[GreyBlack]

So I have to ask, why always cows? They're not bad, but no wolves, velociraptors, or constrictor snakes? No giant owls or bats for flying enemies? But I do love the ability to cast Wall of Beef. You might be able to have more fun if you just vary the animals. I like to roll randomly to determine what shows up, from a list of 6-8 that I know how to run.

Anyway, if conjure animals is too good of a spell, take other things, but know they won't be as effective.

I like the suggestion for one or two of the Tasha's Summoning spells. Summon Elemental is good if their attacks are magical. I can't wait to see a Summon Draconic Spirit in play.

An upcast moonbeam could be fun, but it does eat your action to move it. But it's a decent use of a 3rd or 4th level slot. Sunbeam is similar for a 6th level slot.

Control spells like sleet storm, plant growth, watery sphere, transmute rock, wall of stone, and bones of the earth are all good.

You won't be as powerful if you are avoiding conjure animals, but you'll have more variety.

Because you have to fight until the cows come home.

[Dalinar]

Gonna echo the consensus here: if your problem is specifically with Conjure Animals' ridiculous action economy, just grab a Tasha summon instead. Otherwise, the Druid list has loads of good picks. Leave the blasting to your team for the most part IMO, and focus on utility and control spells.

[Sigreid]

Because you have to fight until the cows come home.

Always go with the cows

https://cdn.blizzardwatch.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/diablo-2-cow-level.jpg

[Melphizard]

So I have to ask, why always cows? They're not bad, but no wolves, velociraptors, or constrictor snakes? No giant owls or bats for flying enemies? But I do love the ability to cast Wall of Beef. You might be able to have more fun if you just vary the animals. I like to roll randomly to determine what shows up, from a list of 6-8 that I know how to run.

While most go with velociraptors, wolves, and/or constrictor snakes, many ignore the power cows have. Since you control where they're summoned you can make them add charge and do 3d6+4 bludgeoning damage a hit if you have the space to do it. That said, it typically works once before they lack the space to "recharge".

[Eldariel]

Elk is perfectly competitive with Cow to switch it up a bit (3d6+3 instead of 3d6+4 and one lower attack bonus, but higher movement speed and the prone-knocking Str check which gives the remaining Elks advantage and any moving and recharging Elks a measure of protection from the OA). They can even afford to move away and charge again thanks to their movement speed; only one eats up the OA. Lots of great 1st level options if you want a bit of variety on that front.

But no, there's nothing even remotely competitive with summoning in the game damage-wise. No PC, no action, nothing. Summoning/minionmancy is by far the strongest option for all but the most extreme encounters in the game thanks to bounded accuracy and the stupid number of things minionmancy in this game gives.


Other animals that are probably not as often mentioned but are great include:
Flying Snake (only vs. poisonable enemies though, but there they are CR 1/8 and totally better than most CR 1/4 options)

Giant Frog (mostly for CC much like Constrictor Snake, can Swallow small enemies too though)

Giant Badger (probably the best straight-up fighter though the low attack bonus sucks this high up)

Giant Poisonous Snake (if no space available, it's also great vs. poison vulnerable enemies)

[Psyren]

The polymorph suggestion + Dragon constellation is a good alternative to blasting too. You'll get a lot of mileage out of that spell slot provided someone else in the party can manage your reduced mental state. (You keep your alignment and personality, so there's no real risk of friendly fire, but your GM might enforce you using suboptimal tactics when you no brain good.)

[sambojin]

Or, just summon less things? And accept the loss of DPR. Let your party shine, as you do a bit of damage and heaps of lockdown, while they nova like mad. You'll find the total party DPR is about the same, but your turns are quicker.

Slapping down 4 Giant Rocktopuses makes for some fun grapple/restrain battles, and don't take too long to use. A couple of Giant Constrictor Snakes can do the job as well. Or a bunch of Giant Eagles or Giant Flying Spiders or Quetzcoatluses to fly around on (parties like free flying + attacks). Give them orders so the party member that is their rider can command them as they see fit.

Learn all about Holding Actions with Tasha's and Fizzbin's Summons! You'll learn how screwy the action economy can be, even without summons or conjures out :)

Casting Summon Draconic Spirit and flying around on it while Guiding Bolt/ Tidal Wave/ Cone of Cold/ Archer Constellation'ing doesn't even feel like summoning, and you've got plenty of slots for that. The Dragon even has 10' reach, so hit and run is easy, and the resists and elements can help you against some creature types.

If you can't just cast/ upcast level 5+ spells (you've been able to upcast to lvl5), Summon Beast and Summon Fey are still fun and a bit broken with wildshape alongside them. Just remember, the summon can ride you, or you can ride the summon. And you've got CR1 wildshape with flying/ swimming speeds by now, so be a power-packed blending machine on those few squares you occupy. Sure DM, choose which one to hit :)
There's tonnes of stuff to conjure in, not just boars, that works for every other party member too. But Summons are fine as well.

Dropping a big Moon Beam (or Flaming Sphere), wildshaping into a Giant Flying Spider (plenty of action options then)/ Giant Eagle (for simple and lazy) and Archer Constellation'ing stuff down can be good for a laugh. Is very nice if you grabbed Metamagic Adept somewhere along the way for Transmute Spell to avoid resistances and immunities. Wall of Fire or Flaming Sphere is better as nearly any other element.

Just wildshaping in a familiar for help actions, and Weal/Woe'ing things as you use CC spells is nice to fulfill a more bardish de/buffer role. Woe from Cosmic Omen is incredible for making CC or damage spells land, so your party will love you.

Dropping a Spike Growth and grappling stuff through it (a lot) as a Giant Eagle can be fun too. Actually, just archering and being a Giant eagle is a lot of fun to grapple stuff wherever you want anyway, even without SG.

Conjure Fey can bring in up-to CR6 Beasts, so bring in a Elder Giant Lizard or Mammoth. A bit of variety is good. But it's a higher level spell.

Casting Summon Fey as a 6th lvl spell for three attacks and teleporting the little blighter anywhere annoying can work in some battles. Give him an entire adventurer's kit and live vicariously in melee through him. A magic short sword for giggles, and random stuff like caltrops and ball bearings makes it like a full PC under your control, while you Tidal Wave stuff prone for him (remember that Tidal Wave can be tiny, or pretty big, and you can size and angle that box any way you want to within 120'). Remember that you can always wildshape into a Deinonychus/ Warhorse/ Dire Wolf/ Jaculi and let him ride around on you as well, just for funsies. He's small, so anything medium sized or larger will do. Mirthful can be brutal against non-charm immune enemies like this. They can't attack either of you, so you move onto the next. Always keep an exotic saddle ready as a druid (get a magical one so it auto-resizes to fit the wearer if you can. Applies to barding as well). You are *perfectly tame* though, because you're you, so I doubt it would require a saddle at all.

Polymorph is great. But so is Draconic Transformation at lvl7. And you can still cast spells as a flying, 60' cone 6d8 force damaging purifier of the unholy. You can even Dragon Constellation to maintain it if you'd like. Or wildshape into a Giant eagle for a 26HP buffer against damage. Or a Giant Octopus for +52HP, because you 60' fly now. There's lots of stuff to Voltron into (even a Giant Flying Spider or Frilled Deathspitter might work, although they're poison based. Anything with a ranged/reach attack really...).
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So, no, you probably won't compete with CR1/4 summoning in DPR terms. Your DM probably should have never given you that Battle Standard. But in the "how much stuff did I get done in the last real-time hour of play?" terms, nearly anything is better. And total party DPR doesn't really go down with decent summons, your own might a bit, but you wasted less time and rolled less dice doing it. Try the Tasha's/Fizzbin's summons. Restrain-on-hit Conjures, but bigger ones, is a good thing too. Flying around on a high to-hit dragon while you bolt/archer away is so much fun that you won't mind the less dice rolled. And every dice is that much more likely to do damage, that you won't be too far off in damage terms anyway. But everyone will have more fun, including the DM.


((Seriously, at lvl14 you could be riding around on a fricken dragon for 4hrs a day. Other people could ride around on that dragon too. You could just fly around as something else and archer constellation/ weal-buff/ woe-debuff/ help action/ grapple/ restrain stuff for them. Or wildshape in a familiar for help actions as you EMP blast everywhere with tidal wave and guiding bolt. Do this, and your party will probably forgive the occasional 4-16 conjure combat.
(Remember, with one 6th level Summon Dragon spell and an Archer constellation, you can have 3x 10' reach attacks, a 30' breath attack, a bonus action ranged attack, and then either guiding bolt or tidal wave or cone of cold. Or you could just use a sling or two hand weapons. Or wildshape into something (a Deinonychus or Frilled Deathspitter could probably easily ride a tame dragon if it knew how, and you do know how. So up-to 3-4 melee attacks or an extra ranged attack if you'd like). And a reaction that ups to-hit or destroys saves. Seriously, that's competitive DPR if you like rolling dice with ok'ish and poor'ish to-hit. No-one usually complains about having 6-9 attacks per round, flying, and a funky 30' ranged reaction, 2 potential attacks of opportunity, and it won't feel like you're just sitting back doing nothing while you're doing it either).

Oh, and Heroes Feast the party every once in a while during a short rest. This also gives you a lot more leeway on druid BS you'll find. More HP to top-up makes you have a spare job to do all day anyway. Higher Level spell, but it's often allowed as a healthy thing.

You have radiant, magical bludgeoning and cold spells as your instant damage spells as a Stars Druid. Your walk through Avernus shall not be hard :)
The fact you've got a tame friggen large-sized, dragon on-call, with magical attacks, will help too))

[KorvinStarmast]

Always go with the cows

https://cdn.blizzardwatch.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/diablo-2-cow-level.jpg Moo moo moo, moo moo, moo!

[sambojin]

Or, you could be nice to your party and DM and go elite cows (warhorses), flying cows (giant eagles) or cow kings (giant elk). Elite cows are very good, and even prone stuff for you. They're faster, can bonus attack when they do prone stuff, can be armoured if you want, plus the DM can't complain if you all want to ride in to town (or battle) on them, because they're trained for that.

There's something to be said for flying berserker cows (Giant Eagles) though. Same philosophy, just a few less of them. But you can wildshape into one if your party really needs five of them.

Give a few elite cows (warhorses) to party members and watch them squee with joy. You just gave them 60' movement and +1-2 attacks (or a free help action on their turn). Even works for things like giving rogues advantage (the warhorse does a help action instead of attacking), and players being able to barge through to important areas (or run away from problem ones). Shooters can kite better, meleers can melee better, casters are safer, and you still get your charge-down pack full of muscle. You get three (then wildshape into a rocktopus or Giant Flying Spider or Giant Eagle?), the rest of the party gets one each.

(Oh, and ridden summoned warhorses can definitely attack when you (or the party member you gave command of them to) tells them to. They follow your orders. It's a part of the spell, which overrides the mounted combat stuff of only dash, disengage or dodge actions. So ride to victory, brave heroes!)

Elite cows (warhorses) really make summoning quicker and easier, but with lots more options for fun as well. Everyone's turns take slightly longer, but it's not you hogging table time, it's everyone being awesome. They'll like that :)