most fun levels

[Mordante]

What do you the consider the most fun levels to play. I personally think level 4-14 are the best. Below 4 the character is too fragile, above 14 the character is too powerful.

[Zarvistic]

For combat encounters and exploration it's definitely levels 1-6 for me. Both as a player and for the few times I was DM. After that, I feel there's too much power and too many options for players thanks to magic mostly. As a DM it felt really hard to make interesting encounters too. I suppose role-playing does feel more interesting at higher levels though.

[Jay R]

I probably enjoy levels 3-13 or so best.

Having said that, I prefer to start at first level. Yes, it's a challenge, but the story is incomplete without D'Artagnan getting in trouble on his way to Paris, or Harry Potter being clueless when he arrives at Hogwarts, or Frodo, Sam, and Pippin being nervous about Farmer Maggot's dogs, or the Pevensies arriving in Narnia with no useful skills.

I know other people disagree with me about it, and there's nothing wrong with that.

[Twurps]

I like to start at lvl 1, both as player and as DM. Mostly for the reasons Jay R mentioned.
So lvl 1-3 are fun for setting the scene, and getting to know your fellow players. After that, fun drops off a bit. things get a bit more 'same-y' for a couple of levels until:
lvl 9 through 12 is where the sweet-spot usually is. Pre-req's have been acquired, prestige classes entered, and this is where individual builds really start to come to life, whilst still not being too overpowered.

After that, it really depends on group/playstyle/optimization. through lvl 15 is mostly OK. after that, the amount of options open to everybody gets to a level where nobody is able to fully grasp all of them. Which is exhausting as a DM, and as a player means you kinda tune out on some of what the others do, until everything eventually breaks in epic, or well before that if players try hard (or even: if players don't try hard to avoid it).

Do note that all of the above is relative, and any level of D&D is still very high on my fun ladder compared to just about any other game.

[Beni-Kujaku]

The levels I most enjoy are level 7 and level 12-14. Level 7 is the most fun to play, where nothing is broken, martials and casters are mostly balanced but there is still a fair bit of choice. Level 12-14 is the most fun to build. At these levels, you have your character concept finished, and you can play it as it was supposed to look like. It's pretty satisfying.

[Thurbane]

I'd say 6-10 is the sweet spot for me.

Powerful/versatile enough to be fun, and not quite high enough that it's become rocket tag.

[Quertus]

Conceptually?

Probably the 30-50 range.

The first few levels, a lucky orc crit could take the character out.

At the frantic leveling pace of 3e, you've barely gotten to know the character before 10th.

With prestige classes, they may well not come online before 15.

Maybe by 20, you've gotten a feel for who they are as what you "intended" them to be.

But "20" isn't a range, so you've got to have time to get acclimated to their new epic abilities.

And, if the design falls short of your expectations, it often can take 20 levels in a tier 1 class to catch up to the curve.

Never mind if you wanted to play an Illithid, a giant, an ancient Dragon, or a Merilith.

So, all in all, if I had to guess, maybe level 30-50, you might just feel confident about getting a character worth playing, that you know how the character runs, and how they fit with the group.

-----

From experience?

The BDH party was fun from start to finish (maybe 3-23?)

Quertus was fun from start to finish (entered 3e at maybe 17-42+)

And, off the top of my head, everyone else (Han, Xyzzy, Yiiksuv, Serin, Squinnamort, VSH, "the Ninja", Mandrek, Ammon, Harold, James Bird, etc), I'd describe as having fun scenes rather than fun ranges.

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Final analysis?

Looking at a few characters in various systems that have whole ranges of fun, not just scenes, I'd say it's the character, the party, the players… the capacity for fun, coupled with a general lack of obstacles to that fun, more than a particular level/capacity range, that makes a character enjoyable.

For me, at least.

[Vaern]

I'd say 6 is probably the best starting point. A lot of fun stuff happens at 6. Wizards, clerics, and druids already have 3rd level spells by then, but sorcerers are just now gaining access to them. Martial characters are gaining their second attack per round from BAB. Add in a bonus feat and access to prestige classes, and it's definitely an exciting level for character development.
I feel like most characters tend to be kind of boring and same-y at lower levels. At 6th level, with a handful of feats and probably a selection of spells beyond the "essentials" under your belt, your character is beginning to feel unique compared to others of the same class. With your first level of a prestige class, you've cemented the character concept and playstyle you'll be building towards. Once you've established some direction for your character, I'd say the only stopping point is when challenges are no longer properly balanced (or rather, when it's no longer possible to properly balance challenges for you).

[rel]

I think the game works best at level 1.
Bear with me here. At level 1, using PHB only to build PC's the rules subsystems all sort of work, the world sort of makes sense.

An unspecialised martial type can reliably rush the back line and grapple a tricksy spellcaster or make an impromptu ranged attack.
When the corrupt merchant prince realises the jig is up and pulls a hand crossbow from his desk the PC's are concerned and not laughing derisively.
The fighter might actually succeed at sneaking past the guards and the wizard might actually roll well and escape the monsters grapple.
When the party rolls will saves there is a resonable chance that the druid will fail and a reasonable chance that the fighter will pass.
Anyone can try climbing a wall, staunching a wound, figuring out what made the tracks or attempt a special attack.

even if you try and limit things with E6 or something similar, by the end game, the differences between PC bonuses can easily be extreme enough that a challenge for one is impossible for another.

Unfortunately, while level 1 is balanced and internally consistent in an elegant way, it isn't fun for a lot of people since options are somewhat limited.
For maximum fun I suggest levels 7 to 12, an amplified e6 if you will.

[Thurbane]

Two words as to why I hate level 1/early levels: dire rats.

Seriously. Disease sucks at low levels, and dire rats appear in sooooo many low level adventures.

[pabelfly]

I like starting at level 3. You're not screwed by one bad dice roll like level 1, but you still have pretty simple characters that you can ease into (especially good for getting used to new characters and/or new players) and can run gritty, low-stake adventures. You're also getting bonus feats, characters are getting second-level abilities, and so forth.

Highest level I'm unsure of, since I haven't played there for extended periods of time. I'd say around 9-12, just because the caster/noncaster difference only gets way tool pronounced.

[Xervous]

3 to 16 for play. If I want the level 1 experience I’ll play a different game that stays around that level of sudden death incompetence. Level 16 can get out there, but it doesn’t go so far as to force the campaign to go planar as the party looks for valid threats.

Sweet spot is probably 7-16 where things actually start getting off the ground.

[icefractal]

1st level can be fine sometimes, but it does limit what type of character concepts are possible, and is very swingy. By 4th/5th level, I feel like things are in a pretty solid place.

On the upper end? It depends on the GM and campaign. I've played 20th level games and they were a lot of fun, so it's not like the game stops working there. But some campaign concepts do stop working at (or before) that point. And the higher you go, the more need for all the players (including the GM) to be on the same page about power levels.

Epic, I've not tried. If you're going by just the ELH in terms of setting/fiction, then it's a lot of extra RL work just to run on a treadmill. But if a GM did some additional worldbuilding and gave levels beyond 20th concrete meaning, no reason it couldn't be fun.


Not quite the same question, but when I'm building a character just to see how something would work out, rather than for a particular campaign, I usually build in the 10th-12th range. That's high enough to usually have their full mechanical concept working, while still allowing comparison to a wide variety of foes and situations.

[Seward]

Mostly it is "what do I get to play".

Had a 3.0 campaign go from 1-12 before GM got complexity-locked

Played several characters from 1-16 in Living Greyhawk (and many more had careers interrupted by campaign ending). One did actually retire around level 5 realizing he COULD upgrade armor and weapons OR he could just buy a tavern, pay somebody else to run it while he hung out there and live off that wealth with his current gear for the rest of his natural life.

Played several from 1-12 in Pathfinder Society, and a couple into the L13-14 range. My alchemist cook retired after some close calls around level 4 to...cook stuff. The rest were all bit by the adventuring bug and trying hard to be annoying Pathfinder busybodies.

Because they all started at L1, and I was addicted to alternate characters, I have played a lot more in the L1-8 range than in the L9-16 range. But...it's like enjoying Coffee AND Hot Chocolate. They're differently fun.

I agree with others, baby levels are for learning who the character is. By around level 6 the personality is set and often the planned build is shifted radically based on what I learned playing them, sometimes by options gained or events that occurred in play. In the 8-12 levels characters grow into something closer to the hero they wanted to become. In L13-16, they learn that the world is kinda tiny and the multiverse is big and scary. But so are they. A LOT of players get complexity locked somewhere after level 8, with druids sometimes melting down as soon as L6 especially if they summon. But even a simple barbarian with power attack can get complicated juggling the modifiers for current turn, especially in a buff-heavy party.

If you play from L1, by the time you are L12 you should at least know what your character can do and should do. For most players, that's true, and L12 goes better than if the chars were all created at L12 for a one-shot.

There are some players though that never seem to get better, and play their L12 guy as if he didn't have all those new abilities, forgets to buy gear, can't seem to generate a full attack and add up results etc. Sometimes those guys always seem to pick the most complicated characters "I'll play a druid because I want an animal friend" and then basically the animal companion is the only thing that helps because they never figured out what to do with the actual character...

[Mordante]

Conceptually?

Probably the 30-50 range.

The first few levels, a lucky orc crit could take the character out.

At the frantic leveling pace of 3e, you've barely gotten to know the character before 10th.

With prestige classes, they may well not come online before 15.

Maybe by 20, you've gotten a feel for who they are as what you "intended" them to be.

But "20" isn't a range, so you've got to have time to get acclimated to their new epic abilities.

And, if the design falls short of your expectations, it often can take 20 levels in a tier 1 class to catch up to the curve.

Never mind if you wanted to play an Illithid, a giant, an ancient Dragon, or a Merilith.

So, all in all, if I had to guess, maybe level 30-50, you might just feel confident about getting a character worth playing, that you know how the character runs, and how they fit with the group.

-----

From experience?

The BDH party was fun from start to finish (maybe 3-23?)

Quertus was fun from start to finish (entered 3e at maybe 17-42+)

And, off the top of my head, everyone else (Han, Xyzzy, Yiiksuv, Serin, Squinnamort, VSH, "the Ninja", Mandrek, Ammon, Harold, James Bird, etc), I'd describe as having fun scenes rather than fun ranges.

-----

Final analysis?

Looking at a few characters in various systems that have whole ranges of fun, not just scenes, I'd say it's the character, the party, the playersÂ… the capacity for fun, coupled with a general lack of obstacles to that fun, more than a particular level/capacity range, that makes a character enjoyable.

For me, at least.

I'm really surprised by this answer to be hones. How fast do you level? In January of this year I started a new party. We have played about 20 session so far as a guess. We are level 4 now (3lvl + 1LA). Maybe we will reach level 5 or 6 by the end of the year. I have never played anything over level 16.

In another party we just started new and we are now level 3 after about 10 sessions.


I like it that many people here still start at level 1. I think that is the best options. If you don't want your character to die early because you're so fragile start playing without combat and do social quests. What I like about low levels is that there is less power difference between the characters. At level 10+ a min/max wizard vs a casual fighter is extreme. At low levels the GM doesn't have to worry about that too much. Lower level characters make for better role playing IMHO, since you can't power your way to a solution.

[Thunder999]

10-20 is my favourite, 10 is when basically everyone will have a distinct and interesting build in play, plenty of fun and game defining spells are available. Depending on exactly what people want to do it might be more like 7-20 (though 10-20 already feels like too wide of a range to answer with).

21+ relies on epic, and while it can be fun it's a lot harder to run and play and there's just not that many stories that make sense at epic, the list of enemies that work is vanishingly small compared to lower levels and for a lot of characters you don't really get all that much of interest by adding epic.

[Mordante]

10-20 is my favourite, 10 is when basically everyone will have a distinct and interesting build in play, plenty of fun and game defining spells are available. Depending on exactly what people want to do it might be more like 7-20 (though 10-20 already feels like too wide of a range to answer with).

21+ relies on epic, and while it can be fun it's a lot harder to run and play and there's just not that many stories that make sense at epic, the list of enemies that work is vanishingly small compared to lower levels and for a lot of characters you don't really get all that much of interest by adding epic.

No everyone has access to spells, so that is not something that really matters. High level characters depend more and more on the character sheet and less on role playing. They are so powerful that they can get away with anything.

The new party we just started we are now level 3 in a prison city. The city runs on a barter system mostly, 5 copper is a significant amount of money. No markets, just a big gladiator type arena where you need to fight if you want to gain anything. So far we killed a few locals buried their bodies to gain a house and we're fighting in the arena gathering info to move up in society. Hopefully to find a way to escape the city. A rogue in the party was nearly killed by a janitor with a broom. So far we are really enjoying ourselves.

[Quertus]

I'm really surprised by this answer to be hones. How fast do you level? In January of this year I started a new party. We have played about 20 session so far as a guess. We are level 4 now (3lvl + 1LA). Maybe we will reach level 5 or 6 by the end of the year. I have never played anything over level 16.

In another party we just started new and we are now level 3 after about 10 sessions.


I like it that many people here still start at level 1. I think that is the best options. If you don't want your character to die early because you're so fragile start playing without combat and do social quests. What I like about low levels is that there is less power difference between the characters. At level 10+ a min/max wizard vs a casual fighter is extreme. At low levels the GM doesn't have to worry about that too much. Lower level characters make for better role playing IMHO, since you can't power your way to a solution.

Balance to the table. If you have a "min/max wizard" and a "casual fighter" (or, worse, a casual Wizard and an übercharger) in the same party, and that's a problem for the group, then the players have failed to balance to the table.

My sniper feeling like your data entry analyst is (one of the reasons) why I don't like 4e (or Bounded Accuracy), and why your description of low level makes me suspect I wouldn't like that, either. I want different characters to actually feel different.

As has been said (in this very thread, I think), by RAW, leveling is very quick in 3e - readily accomplished in just a couple of sessions. Possibly just 1 session if you play quickly (like my groups) and the foes are worth your time to fight.

"Social leveling" would be great. Not only are there no lucky Orc crits, but it seems like a great way to get to know the character.

Of course, even if I had a group that would go for that, that doesn't change the fact that, generally, the most fun levels are *after* you get to know the character, and they fit like a glove. So low levels will always be the worst. Even if you don't get taken out by a social faux pas, like sleeping with the King's daughter.

[Seward]

No everyone has access to spells, so that is not something that really matters. High level characters depend more and more on the character sheet and less on role playing. They are so powerful that they can get away with anything.


I had the opportunity to GM with Lord Robilar (one of Dave Arneson's characters in the original Gary Gygax campaign, and the individual who soloed the Temple of elemental evil in that campaign, poaching it from the lower level party who was clearing it carefully) as a character when running a Living Greyhawk module, interacting with about a CL12 party at a social event. I spent a lot of time beforehand trying to get into the head of a person who achieved epic levels as a solo, 1st edition fighter largely on the strength of a ring of invisibity and regeneration, plus lower level henchmen who helped carry out loot after he'd done the work.

I wrote up a 3.5 build to L24, equipped him properly and thought again about what his life must have been like, and what advice he would give baby adventurers from his Lawful evil perspective. (I was running at a con many times, party levels 4, 8 , 12ish). This advice is relevant to this discussion, and my contention that it's all fun, although my personal experience with levels above 16 is strictly in CRPG territory.

"When you are just starting down the path of the Hero, you worry about death. Nobody knows you, but one misjudgement or ill fortune will finish your legend before it begins. As you gain victories, death is a serious setback, but you worry more about dying in such a way that you can't be raised. Locals start to know of your name, but you are more a worry for the local magestrate or petty villain than something anybody important cares about."

"There comes a point where you carry equipment that costs more than revival and your worry switches to loss of equipment, and your party is more frightened by a rust monster or an adamantine axe weilded with skill than a dragon. You have earned favors of the temporal rulers where you operate, and are a wildcard for any large scale operation planned in your area. The fools who attacked me earlier today are that sort, which is why I chastized them by disarming a few weapons rather than slaying them. (this happened in sight of PC's...a 15th lvl party vs 1 epic warrior....that party is lead by a rival patron also about L15. She is way out of her depth).

"Then comes the time when death is no threat. You are owed favors or have cohorts never in harms way who can cast a true ressurection or perhaps a wish. Your cast-off items can cover most equipment needs and favors and cohorts will produce enough to retrieve any unique artifacts you lost. In short, you are now like me. When I show up in a new city the Circle of 8 (all epic mages) wonder what earth-shaking plot I am involved in, even if I just travelled there to sample the local ale. If I say that my patron War God has taken an interest, He probably will even if He did not before I uttered those words, in spite of the fact that I take no power from him directly. "

"What matters to a living legend like myself is my reputation, my story. When I cease to find joy in the challenges of Oerth, I will allow myself to stay dead and see what being the Right Hand of Hextor is like on the outer planes".

At that point he would encourage PCs to describe what drove them to adventure. I nearly talked a Paladin into becoming his cohort that night, another PC claimed to be the rightful King of Tenh (his response "What are you doing to make that come true?" Hilariously that PC encountered the actual Tenh ruler in later play and I was told by the player he chickened out in pressing his claim, and that conversation made him know he wasn't the stuff of Legend, just an also-ran).


The point being that if you are mindful of why your character is out there risking life and limb daily, you can find new challenges in D&D to motivate you, none of which are strictly tied to WBL, class growth, and such. Yes, the game changes, and the largest change of a progression based RPG like D&D is accepting that it has a campaign and character lifecycle. A low level party is crappy at everything, so anybody can attempt any challenge. You will fail easy stuff half the time even if it is your "role".

As characters level, they stay bad at most things, aside from combat (a L10 wizard can probably win a barfight with her fists and all-day buffs and nothing else. A L10 martial will do the same after emerging naked from an assignation, drunk and fatigued even faster). A few characters will get good at some noncombat stuff, doing easy stuff 100% of the time and hard stuff half the time. As you approach epic, they will do it all the time, and do crazy things that normally are in realms of magic with raw skill, while all other party members struggle to notice if a guard is lying or to climb anything harder than a ladder without a rope.

Much of the gap is closed with magic, as a spellcaster can do stuff outside of skill roles with a magic substitute, and again that just gets more nuts as you level. A L12 party can scry and die any threat lvl 10 or lower. Level appropriate challenges have to assume that invisibility, teleport, disintegrate, flight commune, divination, scrying, wind-walk speed movement and such all are normal for anybody strong enough to thwart their plans. (even martials can do a lot of this, with items, low lvl magic or UMD+consumables etc). Also anybody who has not yet learned that standing where a martial can full attack you (be it normal melee, threat of pounce or archery) will result in being too dead to act next round isn't a serious threat or challenge.

If the party is no longer finding goals or roleplay it's probably time to end the campaign. (seriously, roleplay deities of divine types, summons/familiers of arcanes, mooks as PC's are plowing through them and have movers and shakers of world show respect and interest in PCs as they advance...even in the middle of a crawl it dosn't have to be just all about the killing)

If you want a more static world, there are lots of other game systems out there where PCs start out much more competent but grow much more slowly. If that's your jam in D&D, I recommend story-arc campaigns that only span a few levels. It's designed to have Farmboy become Jedai master, not to have you play Legolas from Rivendell to Gates of Mordor.