Fizban Spells as Bonus Draconic Sorcerer Spells?

[DragonBaneDM]

Heya Playground!

Ever since Tasha's, the sorcerer in the Eberron game I run and I keep telling each other "one of these days we might sit down and see how balanced Draconic vs Clockwork/Aberrant Mind is!" A big part of that is the bonus spells that these subclasses got, which seem to intend to level the playing field between Sorcerers and other Casters.

I'm wondering if giving access to the spells listed in Fizban's as "always known" spells for Draconic Sorcerers would help bridge the gap between PHB Sorcerer Origins and Tasha's. It's only 1-2 per spell level (we'll probably talk a bit about the "dragonest" level 1 spell) instead of the other lists' usual 2-3.

Obviously Draconic Sorcerer works fine as written, my player is having a blast, and the character has presented a challenging problem for me to build encounters and social situations around from levels 1-9. As the group's single-class full caster, this PC ends up being one of the strongest members of the party no matter what I do, so I'm trying to be wary of overtuning.


Thanks!

[Psyren]

I think that normalizing the caster subclasses such that all of them either get bonus preparations/spells known, or an equivalent ability, is good design. I also think sorcerers having fewer spells than bards was a huge miss on WotC's part.

So yes, I'm in favor of all the sorcerer subclasses getting the same number of spells known, and am hopeful that "5.5e" does this. Whether you should stick to the ones in Fizban's for the draconic sorcerer is a different question that I'm not equipped to answer, having not read through that book in detail yet.

[strangebloke]

The Draconic sorcerer shouldn't be getting spells that are tied to a specific element, which constrains things a lot, but you can still put together a flavorful list, Fizban's just doesn't get much rep.

1st - Absorb Elements, Chromatic Orb
3rd - Dragon's Breath, Alter Self
5th - Fear, Elemental Weapon
7th - Stoneskin, Elemental Bane
9th - Dominate Person, Summon Draconic Spirit

Something like Nathair's trickery or Raulothim's Lance aren't really draconic flavor despite having that in their name. IMO anyway.

[Quietus]

The Draconic sorcerer shouldn't be getting spells that are tied to a specific element, which constrains things a lot, but you can still put together a flavorful list, Fizban's just doesn't get much rep.

1st - Absorb Elements, Chromatic Orb
3rd - Dragon's Breath, Alter Self
5th - Fear, Elemental Weapon
7th - Stoneskin, Elemental Bane
9th - Dominate Person, Summon Draconic Spirit

Something like Nathair's trickery or Raulothim's Lance aren't really draconic flavor despite having that in their name. IMO anyway.

I really like this list.

[strangebloke]

I really like this list.

yeah.

Something like this is unlikely to see print though, if only because it references spells from both XGTE/EE and TCOE. Which is a stupid reason for it not to exist imo but that's the world we live in.:smallannoyed:

[Pex]

The Draconic sorcerer shouldn't be getting spells that are tied to a specific element, which constrains things a lot, but you can still put together a flavorful list, Fizban's just doesn't get much rep.

1st - Absorb Elements, Chromatic Orb
3rd - Dragon's Breath, Alter Self
5th - Fear, Elemental Weapon
7th - Stoneskin, Elemental Bane
9th - Dominate Person, Summon Draconic Spirit

Something like Nathair's trickery or Raulothim's Lance aren't really draconic flavor despite having that in their name. IMO anyway.

The problem with Chromatic Orb is the spell component. First level Sorcerers usually cannot afford it, and it's a shame to give them a spell they can't use.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

The problem with Chromatic Orb is the spell component. First level Sorcerers usually cannot afford it, and it's a shame to give them a spell they can't use.

Honestly, If you go starting gold it's not a big deal. Average for Sorc is 75. 25 GP is enough for Explorer's pack, some weapons and some extra cash. If they really want the spell available.

It's not a great answer, and personally, I'd probably Put a house rule in place that says "These spells require no material component when cast in relationship to your Draconic Bloodline's element"

[strangebloke]

The problem with Chromatic Orb is the spell component. First level Sorcerers usually cannot afford it, and it's a shame to give them a spell they can't use.

It's 50 GP, they can almost always afford that after a single encounter even if they're starting with nothing (And sorcerers by default start with 85 GP on average with no other real equipment cost so they can start with enough money even at level 1)

So yeah, I don't view this as a serious criticism. It's a flavorful spell in a way that burning hands isn't, and it builds some gutter guards into the class by ensuring you should always have a non fire/lightning/acid option.

EDIT: also worth pointing out that at this level sorcerers get default mage armor and two more spells besides these, so it isn't like they can't have another attack spell if they don't want to.

[werescythe]

It's 50 GP, they can almost always afford that after a single encounter even if they're starting with nothing (And sorcerers by default start with 85 GP on average with no other real equipment cost so they can start with enough money even at level 1)

That's really dependant upon the DM. Most of the games I've been in players start with the gold given to them by their background. As for the gold after the first encounter that is also dependant upon the encounter and how much the DM wants to spoil it.

Now keep in mind, I think Chromatic Orb makes a LOT of sense on the Draconic Sorcerer spell list. It's just that it might be tricky to get those mayerials is all.

[strangebloke]

That's really dependant upon the DM. Most of the games I've been in players start with the gold given to them by their background. As for the gold after the first encounter that is also dependant upon the encounter and how much the DM wants to spoil it.

Now keep in mind, I think Chromatic Orb makes a LOT of sense on the Draconic Sorcerer spell list. It's just that it might be tricky to get those mayerials is all.

either way, doubling their effective number of options.

[werescythe]

either way, doubling their effective number of options.

Indeed. :smallwink:

[Psyren]

I'm okay with Chromatic Orb being a flavorful free spell even if they can't cast it (much) right at the start of the game.

[Saelethil]

The Draconic sorcerer shouldn't be getting spells that are tied to a specific element, which constrains things a lot, but you can still put together a flavorful list, Fizban's just doesn't get much rep.

1st - Absorb Elements, Chromatic Orb
3rd - Dragon's Breath, Alter Self
5th - Fear, Elemental Weapon
7th - Stoneskin, Elemental Bane
9th - Dominate Person, Summon Draconic


"These spells require no material component when cast in relationship to your Draconic Bloodline's element"

These in conjunction are probably the best answer I’ve seen for this since Tasha’s came out. I’m not a fan of over complicating things with different spells for each Bloodline which is what I’ve seen most suggest and these capture the essence of what I would expect.

[sambojin]

1st - Absorb Elements, Chromatic Orb
3rd - Dragon's Breath, Alter Self (See Invisible?)
5th - Fear, Summon Beast (Elemental Weapon x)
7th - Fireball (Elemental Bane/Polymorph x), Stoneskin
9th - Legend Lore (Immolation/ Hold Monster/ Dominate Person x), Summon Draconic Spirit



At third I'd ditch Alter Self for See Invisible, but Alter Self is so much better, so I've left it. Dragons do happen to do blindsight/ truesight though, and see invisible is kinda close to that.....

At fifth I'd ditch Elemental Weapon for Summon Beast. Why a 2nd level spell at 5th character level (normally a 3rd level spell)? No reason. It makes it unique and quirky and fun. Have a wyrm or a ground drake or a flying drake or a sea dragon or a mini-baby flying dragon beast thingo (combat pseudo-dragon!). It gets bigger as you do. Or just whatever beast, dragons always seem to have some spies in the land, even ones they've just ravaged. Good for a laugh really, and it can ride on your shoulder if you're medium-sized. And no-one can say it's OP, even off-list, if it's two levels late.

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(Removed)
At seventh I'd ditch Stoneskin for Polymorph. There, now you're an "insert thing here". Because I don't really think dragons just become people. It's whatever helps them blend in that they become. Reskin as dragon rage as required.
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Nope. Fireball. Just make it easy. Transmute if you want, or have a basic big blaster. All dragons breathe gouts of explody fire, we all know that. And again, a level later than normal, to help you really make some choices on what you'll choose on leading up to this. You can always sub it out if you chose it at 5th lvl. Still have Stoneskin though. Attack (against resists/immunities without investment) or defense for concentration? Easy decisions made hard. But options and slots available.

At ninth I'd ditch Dominate Person for Immolation. Because Immolation with Transmute Spell metamagic really does seem to be asking to be done. You've already got fear.... Not everyone gets dominated by dragons. Turned to ash though? That happens a fair bit.
You'd probably grab Transmute at 10th if you didn't already have it, just for flavour 🌈
(I was going to suggest Hold Monster instead of Dominate Person. Super-out-of-the-sky, gonna get crit heaps, dragon rage. Honestly, Dominate Person is super powerful, and seems non-thematic. You're meant to summon the dragon every time, rather than hold or dominate anything. I'd damn near put Legend Lore there, just for those sorts of campaigns. That makes WAY more sense...).

Is mine too highly tuned? Maybe. But it's fun and unique and really does add flavour to the class. You could ditch See Invis/ Alter Self and put Summon Beast there, but *then* it's too highly tuned. And some abilities/ spells come on just about when you want them too, you've got low and high level spell-slot options for lots of different tasks at hand, and it's a good mix for plenty of different metamagics for your build to utilize too. Yeah, it's across two books, but whatever. We've all got apps on our phones and the internet :)

So....



1st - Absorb Elements, Chromatic Orb
3rd - Dragon's Breath, Alter Self
5th - Fear, Summon Beast
7th - Fireball, Stoneskin
9th - Legend Lore, Summon Draconic Spirit
????

Seems legit dragon'y. Not overtuned, and you can still fill your list with heaps of basic sorcerer staples, but covers a lot a "normal" dragon'y sorcerer stuff the basic one doesn't.

[Chronic]

What I did in my games is that all of the sorcerer subclasses get bonus spells. Draconic sorcerers get common spells shared between every draconic ancestry and specific spells according to the draconic ancestry they choose.
Probably not incredibly well balanced because of the lack of spells in some elements and the need to be thematic while choosing spells that mostly do damage, but most of my players seem satisfied by it.

[sambojin]

I've always just DM'd it as "All PHB Sorcs get 1 open prep at 1st level per day, 2 open preps at 6th level per day, off the Sorcerer spell list of any spell level they can cast, kinda like a cleric/druid, but only 1-2 of them".
Each long rest, really. But we used to do "days".

It entirely fixed all early-material sorcerers. You're never locked into one playstyle, which can be very handy in some campaigns. Combat to intrigue? No worries. Class still works fine!

(Makes it a very easy class to pick-up for newer players too. Because planning out 5-11 lvls of character development isn't newbie friendly, Sorcs are meant to be easier than wizards, so a floating spell prep or two takes all the stress out of the class as well. Still a sharp casting blade, but not a focused brain-surgeons's scalpel, just a versatile tool that can do all kinds of things well. Made metamagic choices a lot easier for the player too, even before Tasha's).
((Thematically it was just "Dragon Heritage and Knowledge" coming out, or "whimsical randomness" of Wild Magic doing its thing)).


But I do like the themed list above. As well as my own for the off-list yet thematic, but spell-level-shifted list too. You'll end up dragon'y whether you like it or not 😋

[strangebloke]

These in conjunction are probably the best answer I’ve seen for this since Tasha’s came out. I’m not a fan of over complicating things with different spells for each Bloodline which is what I’ve seen most suggest and these capture the essence of what I would expect.
Thanks, nice to receive positive feedback.


Seems legit dragon'y. Not overtuned, and you can still fill your list with heaps of basic sorcerer staples, but covers a lot a "normal" dragon'y sorcerer stuff the basic one doesn't.

I think telling any non-fire dragon sorc "just transmute it" is going to feel bad. Like why should my white dragon sorcerer even have fireball? Why should they have to have transmute? Is that a tax for this class? I don't like it. Same goes for immolation. Not all dragons breath gouts of fire, that's just not how any of this works.

Beyond that, summon beast and legend lore are weird choices, I don't see how beasts are on flavor for dragon. Polymorph has a similar problem.

Which leaves hold person and hold monster. Both are fine in theory but the level shifting feels... really bad imo. Like, "you can just swap it for another spell" isn't a defense of an item's place on a list.

[DragonBaneDM]

The Draconic sorcerer shouldn't be getting spells that are tied to a specific element, which constrains things a lot, but you can still put together a flavorful list, Fizban's just doesn't get much rep.

1st - Absorb Elements, Chromatic Orb
3rd - Dragon's Breath, Alter Self
5th - Fear, Elemental Weapon
7th - Stoneskin, Elemental Bane
9th - Dominate Person, Summon Draconic Spirit

Something like Nathair's trickery or Raulothim's Lance aren't really draconic flavor despite having that in their name. IMO anyway.

Oh hey! I wanted to reply to this since I never had a chance to thank you!

I ran this by my sorcerer player. We both agree it's a WAY better spell list, plus he's been eyeing up Absorb Elements for a WHILE.

Thanks! I think we're going to put this into use next session!

[strangebloke]

Oh hey! I wanted to reply to this since I never had a chance to thank you!

I ran this by my sorcerer player. We both agree it's a WAY better spell list, plus he's been eyeing up Absorb Elements for a WHILE.

Thanks! I think we're going to put this into use next session!

Nice! Happy to help.