5e Beguiler Wizard Subclass

[GreyBlack]

Hey guys! I decided to try my hand at making a Wizard subclass, so please let me know what you think! I think it's a bit weak right now except for that 14th level ability, but still!

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Edits will be made in this color based on feedback.

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School of Beguiling

The realm of the mind is a complex problem that the School of Beguiling seeks to unravel. While some might call the school a myth told to young wizards still in their classes, the School of Beguiling seeks new ways to alter the mind and perception of those around them.

Often serving as spies or intelligence operatives for nobility, Beguilers, as they are called, are often called on for their unique ability to warp the minds of those around them.

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Beguiler Training: Beginning at 2nd Level when you select this school, you gain proficiency in light armor.

You gain proficiency in Deception and Disguise Kit if you don't already have it.

Manipulative Casting: Starting at 2nd level, your spells become more effective when cast against an unwary foe. When casting an Illusion or Enchantment spell, you may make a Deception check as a Bonus action. If you roll higher than 10+the spell's level, the foe is unaware of your spellcasting, and they have Disadvantage to save against the spell.

Arcane Manipulation: Starting at 6th level, your training in subtlety grants you unseen benefits. You may cast spells from the Illusion or Enchantment schools without using any somatic or verbal components.

Mental Manipulation: Starting at 10th level, you can sense the surface thoughts of those around you as per Detect Thoughts without expending a spell slot. You may activate this ability a number of times equal to your Proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses of it when you finish a long rest.

Reality Manipulation: By 14th level, your training in deception has deepened to where your deceptions change the world around you. Whenever you make a Deception check to convince someone of something, you can warp reality for 1 minute to make your deception true. You may activate this ability a number of times equal to your Proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses of it when you finish a long rest.

[Jervis]

Are there any illusion or enchantment spells that even use attack rolls? Undetectable casting is good though.

Honestly I think Bard might be better for this since you use deception and have armor profs. I know beguiler in 3.5 uses Int bit Int doesn’t contribute to skill monkeying like it does in that edition. So bard’s extended skill proficiency and armor profs are a better fit.

[GreyBlack]

Are there any illusion or enchantment spells that even use attack rolls? Undetectable casting is good though.

Honestly I think Bard might be better for this since you use deception and have armor profs. I know beguiler in 3.5 uses Int bit Int doesn’t contribute to skill monkeying like it does in that edition. So bard’s extended skill proficiency and armor profs are a better fit.

Okay... do you have any suggestions other than "lol use a bard"?

ETA: I am taking your advice of that there are not illusion or enchantment spells that use attack rolls. Changing this as above to:


[ ... ] If you roll higher than 10+the spell's level, the foe is unaware of your spellcasting, and they have Disadvantage to save against the spell.

[Kane0]

Yeah Manipulative Casting doesn't quite fit I think, there are very few enchantment or illusion spells that use attack rolls and the whole 'cast undetected' thing is done by the level 6 Subtle Spell feature.
Perhaps swap it out for something like 'creatures that are surprised or that haven't taken a turn in combat yet have disadvantage on saving throws against enchantment or illusion spells you cast'. That would sync nicely with the level 6 and 10 features.

Reality manipulation could be theoretically infinite in power, but then again the same could be said of the level 14 illusionist, transmuter and enchanter features so as long as the DM can handle this I'd say it's fine. I'd put it in the same category as Divine Intervention.

So looks pretty good apart from Manipulative Casting.

[GreyBlack]

Yeah Manipulative Casting doesn't quite fit I think, there are very few enchantment or illusion spells that use attack rolls and the whole 'cast undetected' thing is done by the level 6 Subtle Spell feature.
Perhaps swap it out for something like 'creatures that are surprised or that haven't taken a turn in combat yet have disadvantage on saving throws against enchantment or illusion spells you cast'. That would sync nicely with the level 6 and 10 features.

Reality manipulation could be theoretically infinite in power, but then again the same could be said of the level 14 illusionist, transmuter and enchanter features so as long as the DM can handle this I'd say it's fine. I'd put it in the same category as Divine Intervention.

So looks pretty good apart from Manipulative Casting.

I think I fixed it above. Opinions?

ETA: Perhaps, then, making Reality Manipulation a once per long rest thing instead of a X times per long rest? I agree that it's powerful, but it also only lasts for a minute before it's undone, which I thought was a good way to weaken it.

[Kane0]

ETA: Perhaps, then, making Reality Manipulation a once per long rest thing instead of a X times per long rest? I agree that it's powerful, but it also only lasts for a minute before it's undone, which I thought was a good way to weaken it.

Honestly not sure really. My first thought was 'can I convince the party barbarian that i'm basically a god; indestructible with unlimited spells at my disposal? I could get a lot of spells done in 9 turns' but what part of that would get reverted?

[GreyBlack]

Honestly not sure really. My first thought was 'can I convince the party barbarian that i'm basically a god; indestructible with unlimited spells at my disposal? I could get a lot of spells done in 9 turns' but what part of that would get reverted?

Personally, I might rule that as 3 separate uses of the ability, but I get your point. What prevents the character from simply making a Deception to get unlimited attempts at this?

Perhaps I should set a fixed DC for this ability of around 25 to prevent using this ability on super gullible people for an auto-success, and then word it such that it only affects the physical world and not creatures?

The intent was to create something to the effect of being able to stop boulders from falling while a building is collapsing around the PC's. Beguiler then says "The boulders aren't falling," and the boulders suddenly stop allowing the PC's to escape. Or lying and saying that the door isn't made of wood; it's made of jello. Something like that.

[Ilerien]

Hey guys! I decided to try my hand at making a Wizard subclass, so please let me know what you think! I think it's a bit weak right now except for that 14th level ability, but still!I'm curious, how much do you want to follow the original beguiler from PHB2 3.5e.

Beguiler Training: Beginning at 2nd Level when you select this school, you gain proficiency in light armor.

You gain proficiency in Deception and Disguise Kit if you don't already have it.
How about expertise in Deception right away? I wouldn't have minded another bonus skill proficiency, probably from those available to rogues.
Manipulative Casting: Starting at 2nd level, your spells become more effective when cast against an unwary foe. When casting an Illusion or Enchantment spell, you may make a Deception check as a Bonus action. If you roll higher than 10+the spell's level, the foe is unaware of your spellcasting, and they have Disadvantage to save against the spell.To be honest, it's actually quite inelegant for several reasons. First, you do something as a bonus action, like, in the middle of something else. Second, you imply this spell would be an action, but you can't guarantee thus: what if this wizard has metamagic adept and quickens their dominate person (which is actually a common enough tactic with mind sliver as an action first)?
I would either steal arcane trickster's magical ambush feature (restricting it to illusion and enchantment spells) or make it Charisma (Deception) vs passive Wisdom (Insight) of creatures affected, get rid of that bonus action requirement and make it usable a number of times per long rest equal to the character's proficiency bonus.
Arcane Manipulation: Starting at 6th level, your training in subtlety grants you unseen benefits. You may cast spells from the Illusion or Enchantment schools without using any somatic or verbal components.Permanent subtle spell on mind sliver, suggestion and dominate person is actually quite strong.
Mental Manipulation: Starting at 10th level, you can sense the surface thoughts of those around you as per Detect Thoughts without expending a spell slot. You may activate this ability a number of times equal to your Proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses of it when you finish a long rest.I don't see any mental manipulation here, only some reading. ;)
Flavorful, but not exactly strong. Also, you have to clarify what action is required to activate this, etc.
Reality Manipulation: By 14th level, your training in deception has deepened to where your deceptions change the world around you. Whenever you make a Deception check to convince someone of something, you can warp reality for 1 minute to make your deception true. You may activate this ability a number of times equal to your Proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses of it when you finish a long rest.Please, no. Not only the wording is graviturgy-level vague, but unless it's limited severely at the table, it's going to be several free wishes per day, and you just need your party members to use them.
I urge you to scrap this one and not to try to fix it while retaining the general idea. Also, manipulating reality itself feels like a long stretch for what a beguiler should be able to accomplish more readily than any other wizard, in my opinion.

School of Beguiling

The realm of the mind is a complex problem that the School of Beguiling seeks to unravel. While some might call the school a myth told to young wizards still in their classes, the School of Beguiling seeks new ways to alter the mind and perception of those around them.

Often serving as spies or intelligence operatives for nobility, Beguilers, as they are called, are often called on for their unique ability to warp the minds of those around them. (emphasis mine)
Overall, I have mixed feelings about this subclass. Some of the features fit the theme well and improve the wizard class in meaningful ways, some don't do one or the other. I don't see the features delivering on what is advertised in the fluff. I'd suggest to steal a couple of lines from PHB2 3.5e. ;) Less of "an ultimate mind-warper" and more of "a wizard who is a liar and manipulator extraordinaire too": I see it more as an illusion-and-enchantment sister subclass to the warmage, a wizard trained for the specific purpose of infiltration just as a warmage is for battlefield.

[GreyBlack]

I'm curious, how much do you want to follow the original beguiler from PHB2 3.5e.

How about expertise in Deception right away? I wouldn't have minded another bonus skill proficiency, probably from those available to rogues.To be honest, it's actually quite inelegant for several reasons. First, you do something as a bonus action, like, in the middle of something else. Second, you imply this spell would be an action, but you can't guarantee thus: what if this wizard has metamagic adept and quickens their dominate person (which is actually a common enough tactic with mind sliver as an action first)?
I would either steal arcane trickster's magical ambush feature (restricting it to illusion and enchantment spells) or make it Charisma (Deception) vs passive Wisdom (Insight) of creatures affected, get rid of that bonus action requirement and make it usable a number of times per long rest equal to the character's proficiency bonus.Permanent subtle spell on mind sliver, suggestion and dominate person is actually quite strong.I don't see any mental manipulation here, only some reading. ;)
Flavorful, but not exactly strong. Also, you have to clarify what action is required to activate this, etc.Please, no. Not only the wording is graviturgy-level vague, but unless it's limited severely at the table, it's going to be several free wishes per day, and you just need your party members to use them.
I urge you to scrap this one and not to try to fix it while retaining the general idea. Also, manipulating reality itself feels like a long stretch for what a beguiler should be able to accomplish more readily than any other wizard, in my opinion.
(emphasis mine)
Overall, I have mixed feelings about this subclass. Some of the features fit the theme well and improve the wizard class in meaningful ways, some don't do one or the other. I don't see the features delivering on what is advertised in the fluff. I'd suggest to steal a couple of lines from PHB2 3.5e. ;) Less of "an ultimate mind-warper" and more of "a wizard who is a liar and manipulator extraordinaire too": I see it more as an illusion-and-enchantment sister subclass to the warmage, a wizard trained for the specific purpose of infiltration just as a warmage is for battlefield.

Advice taken; I'd just like to explain my thought process here.

My thought process was that the Beguiler would gain ability to learn how to lie and deceive throughout their career, up to the point that they can trick reality itself into doing what they want it to do.

Although, I wholeheartedly agree that this ability is probably too powerful, and does need to be brought back in line. I'll give it a think.