Looking for Ideas/Advice: Kobold & Lizardfolk Two-Man Cell

[BlackOnyx]

Relatively new to 5e. Looking for some advice on how to build a particular style of two-man cell with another player for an upcoming campaign. (The overall party will be larger, we're just looking to share a backstory.)

Likely starting at level 1. Would probably want to see something practical at early levels of play. I'd be surprised to see things go past level 10.

The team:

Player 1 (the other player): the sneaky (melee oriented) rogue damage dealer.

Player 2 (myself): the tanky lizardfolk martial.

Assuming Player 1's class is fixed, how might one go about optimizing Player 2 in the context of creating an effective two-man martial cell? (What class options, feat options, etc.)

My image of Player 2 is a PC that's tanky, physically imposing, and capable of making changes to the battlefield by mundane means. (Things like grappling, intimidating, charging, maneuvering, etc.)

The image of the Mad Max "Master Blaster" is very much in line with what we're looking for thematically: Player 2 is the muscle that breaks skulls and draws the aggro, Player 1 is the brains/strategy/stinger that makes use of their bulk.

[icedraikon]

Can never go wrong with Battle Master.
- Bait and Switch - Allows you to help allies disengage (helpful vs Sentinel or when your rogue wants to preserve their bonus action for something else)
- Commander's Strike - Allows rogue to get off another sneak attack in a round (SA is 1/turn, so if you do this on your turn, your rogue can attack again and get 2 sneak attacks per round)
- Grappling Strike - Allows you to grapple target as a BA
- Maneuvering Strike - Moves allies w/ no OAs
- Pushing Attack - Pushes target (good with stuff like Spike Growth)

Fighting Styles:
- Blind Fighting - A classic if your team likes using Fog Cloud, Darkness, etc
- Defense - Simple +1 AC
- Interception - Intercept attacks vs allies
- Protection - Impose disadvantages on attacks vs allies

Other Fighter options:
- Rune Knight - Cloud Rune to move a Sneak Attack from the tank to the squishy in the back, or a hard hit on one of your allies to an enemy. Runic Shield at level 7 as well. And of course Giant's Might where you get larger, do more damage, etc



Barbarian could work as a dummy thicc frontliner
- Ancestral Guardian - Pretty decent with its 3rd and 6th level features at protecting allies. 3rd - hit a creature and that creature has disadvantage to hit anyone other than you. If they do hit someone else, that someone else has resistance. 6th - reaction to reduce damage a creature takes by 2d6.
- Storm Herald - Tundra aura gives 2THP to all creatures of your choice within 10feet. Not really worth it imo unless you have at least 1 other person that will be frontlining. (For comparison, at level 3 you could have an artillerist artificer put their protector cannon on you and get 1d8+3THP every round)
- Totem - Classic tank. Resistance to everything except for psychic. No real movement or utility options. Does damage, takes damage.



Battle Master in my opinion is the best option. Plenty of options in combat, short rest recovery, pretty simple, and extremely effective.(Can go for a dex fighter to also be decent at ranged combat as well if you're worried about being able to get close to enemies.) Additionally, fighter gets an extra ASI at 6th which feels wonderful.





Edit:
Somehow forgot Paladins. Aura at level 6, and fantastic spells like Heroism, Shield of Faith, and Bless. Command and Compel Duel give decent control options.

[Khrysaes]

The image of the Mad Max "Master Blaster" is very much in line with what we're looking for thematically: Player 2 is the muscle that breaks skulls and draws the aggro, Player 1 is the brains/strategy/stinger that makes use of their bulk.

It's a bit debated, but the small kobold can ride the medium sized lizard folk.

That said, a barbarian, fighter, or paladin lizardfolk, and an artillerist artificer may fit that.

Essentially anything that affects allies within 5ft or more feet, have the smaller one ride the larger one.

Arguably, the smaller one would want the higher defenses because of the mounted combatant feat allowing them to take the attacks of the "mount."


Another thought would be an answer I never got to a question: "What if two characters cast warding bond on each other?"
5 levels of cleric. A twilight cleric would be great for constant temp hp.

The way it works is that both get resistance to damage, one gets attacked, the damage is halved (because of resistance), and then half that damage is taken by the other, which is halved again (because of resistance). I am unclear if it creates an endless loop or not. The healing from each other, either replenishing temp HP or aura of vitality or something means that the damage taken is essentially instantly fixed.

Paladin auras are great for a combo like this, especially the level 6 feature which grants the CHA bonus to all saves to everyone in 10ft.

[BlackOnyx]

Can never go wrong with Battle Master.
- Bait and Switch - Allows you to help allies disengage (helpful vs Sentinel or when your rogue wants to preserve their bonus action for something else)
- Commander's Strike - Allows rogue to get off another sneak attack in a round (SA is 1/turn, so if you do this on your turn, your rogue can attack again and get 2 sneak attacks per round)
- Grappling Strike - Allows you to grapple target as a BA
- Maneuvering Strike - Moves allies w/ no OAs
- Pushing Attack - Pushes target (good with stuff like Spike Growth)


Barbarian could work as a dummy thicc frontliner
- Ancestral Guardian - Pretty decent with its 3rd and 6th level features at protecting allies. 3rd - hit a creature and that creature has disadvantage to hit anyone other than you. If they do hit someone else, that someone else has resistance. 6th - reaction to reduce damage a creature takes by 2d6.


These two are definitely looking promising.

The barb chassis is a solid start for a lot of the baseline traits I'm looking for--speed, tankiness, initiative/dex-adjacent bonuses--but those Battle Master maneuvers are pretty hard to pass up.

At the *very* least, three levels of Battle Master fighter alongside Ancestral Barb would be a pretty fitting combination; the hardest part would be waiting until higher levels to gain access to those maneuvers.

In sum, Ancestral Barb X / Fighter Battle Master 3 / Ancestral Barb Y is looking pretty tempting.



It's a bit debated, but the small kobold can ride the medium sized lizard folk.


Essentially anything that affects allies within 5ft or more feet, have the smaller one ride the larger one.

Arguably, the smaller one would want the higher defenses because of the mounted combatant feat allowing them to take the attacks of the "mount."


The idea of mounted combat is definitely an enticing one.

Granted, I don't want to go so far as to assume the Mounted Combat feat will be applicable, but even if Player 1 was simply able to attack from Player 2's shoulders without penalty, that'd be a pretty cool tool to have in the arsenal.

And even if *that* sounded a little iffy to the DM, just having the option to deposit Player 1 into the center of the fray with barbarian movement as an opening salvo would be pretty nifty.

More on the fluff side, but I've been looking at the "marine" background for Player 2 as well. The ability to travel for 16 hours a day without tiring makes him a pretty ideal traveling companion/mount for Player 1.

[icedraikon]

These two are definitely looking promising.

The barb chassis is a solid start for a lot of the baseline traits I'm looking for--speed, tankiness, initiative/dex-adjacent bonuses--but those Battle Master maneuvers are pretty hard to pass up.

At the *very* least, three levels of Battle Master fighter alongside Ancestral Barb would be a pretty fitting combination; the hardest part would be waiting until higher levels to gain access to those maneuvers.

In sum, Ancestral Barb X / Fighter Battle Master 3 / Ancestral Barb Y is looking pretty tempting.




If you didn't want to take the battle master levels you could take the Martial Adept feat (either via Custom Linage/Variant Human or at level 4 on Barbarian) and take 2 maneuvers there then go straight Barbarian. Limits number of maneuvers as well as maneuver options, but it would help deal with the 3 levels you would need to take otherwise. Could also take Fighter1 with Superior Technique which gives you 1 maneuver and 1 superiority die. That said, both the Martial Adept feat and the Superior Technique fighting style give you d6s as your superiority dice and not d8s.


You could also go Barb 3 / Fighter X to get rage and first subclass feature then go straight fighter to get extra ASI at Fighter 6 and Extra Attack (2) at Fighter 10.
Totem Barbarian (Bear) 3 / Battle Master fighter X would get you really good tankiness with all the maneuvers you want/need


All that said, you don't really need that many maneuvers to help the rogue. Commander's Strike's value comes from helping the rogue get off another sneak attack, so the die going from a d8 to a d6 doesn't really matter. Maneuvering Attack is similar. Bait and Switch probably won't suffer much either.

[BlackOnyx]

If you didn't want to take the battle master levels you could take the Martial Adept feat (either via Custom Linage/Variant Human or at level 4 on Barbarian) and take 2 maneuvers there then go straight Barbarian. Limits number of maneuvers as well as maneuver options, but it would help deal with the 3 levels you would need to take otherwise.


Another potential option. The single use per short rest leaves me a bit restless though, I'll admit. Pros and cons, I suppose.



Could also take Fighter1 with Superior Technique which gives you 1 maneuver and 1 superiority die.

You could also go Barb 3 / Fighter X to get rage and first subclass feature then go straight fighter to get extra ASI at Fighter 6 and Extra Attack (2) at Fighter 10.
Totem Barbarian (Bear) 3 / Battle Master fighter X would get you really good tankiness with all the maneuvers you want/need


A lot of good suggestions to work with there.


And actually...now that I'm looking at it...I hadn't realized Fighter was the only class to get access to Extra Attack multiple times over their advancement.

Between that and the additional ASIs you brought to my attention (there's quite a few feats I'm interested in)...maybe fighter might be where I'd want to start from:


- A few of the Barb traits liked could be subbed out for some feats. (Lucky for Feral Instinct , certain maneuvers for [I]Ancestral Protectors [aggro].)


- The Fighter's Extra Attack(s) and Action Surge kinda make up for Reckless Attack. (More rolls made.)


- If I started Fighter this way and went into Totem Barbarian 3, I could have a lot of Ancestral Protectorish adjacent abilities *and* the resistances of the bear totem. Another level of Barbarian after that would net another ability score increase (likely a feat) after that....


Ohhh boy. A lot to consider here:


- Battle Master Fighter 6 / Totem Barbarian 4 / Battle Master Fighter X might be good if I want to prioritize getting maneuvers, the first Extra Attack, second ASI, and additional Barbarian ASI.


- Totem Barbarian 4 / Battle Master Fighter 6 if I wanted prioritize tanking.


- Battle Master Fighter 3 / Totem Barbarian 4 / Battle Master Fighter X if I wanted to prioritize maneuvers and tanking over Extra Attack.


I guess it comes down to how badly I want to focus on damage, control, or defense with Player 1 in mind.

By level 10 or so, all three would even out, but given most of the campaign will have taken place by then, order of operations could matter quite a bit here.




That said, both the Martial Adept feat and the Superior Technique fighting style give you d6s as your superiority dice and not d8s.


All that said, you don't really need that many maneuvers to help the rogue. Commander's Strike's value comes from helping the rogue get off another sneak attack, so the die going from a d8 to a d6 doesn't really matter. Maneuvering Attack is similar. Bait and Switch probably won't suffer much either.


Agreed, having access to the new movement modes (rather than the bonuses to the superiority dice) would be the priority here.

There's a few other maneuvers that could be fun/useful as well, but those are the big three that caught my eye.

I imagine maneuvers known from feats and fighting style have their usage/superiority dice tied to the feature they earned them from? (That is, they draw from separate resource pools when used?)

[CTurbo]

I like the idea of a Kobold Rogue and his Lizardfolk Barbarian(Ancestral Guardian) buddy. They'd both have always on advantage on attacks standing next to each other. The Kobold could use the Lizardfolk as partial cover.

The Rogue takes Sentinel at some point. The Barb baits the enemy into attacking him via Reckless Attack, and the Rogue gets the off-turn Sneak Attack from Sentinel. When/if the Rogue does take damage, the Barb can decrease it via AG's features. Maybe the Rogue is a Thief and eventually takes Healer since the Barb will forever be soaking up most of the damage. I'd probably go good old fashioned GWM for the Barb for maximum damage.

Battle Master levels would be good, but not strictly necessary.

[BlackOnyx]

I like the idea of a Kobold Rogue and his Lizardfolk Barbarian(Ancestral Guardian) buddy. They'd both have always on advantage on attacks standing next to each other. The Kobold could use the Lizardfolk as partial cover.

The Rogue takes Sentinel at some point. The Barb baits the enemy into attacking him via Reckless Attack, and the Rogue gets the off-turn Sneak Attack from Sentinel. When/if the Rogue does take damage, the Barb can decrease it via AG's features. Maybe the Rogue is a Thief and eventually takes Healer since the Barb will forever be soaking up most of the damage. I'd probably go good old fashioned GWM for the Barb for maximum damage.

Battle Master levels would be good, but not strictly necessary.


Sentinel on the Rogue...that's a pretty solid idea. As is the idea of using the Lizardfolk as partial cover.

That said, what I find kind of appealing about Battle Master is the fact you can sort of fudge an approximation of the Ancestral Guardian features in just three levels.

Fighting Style: Interception lets you negate damage as a reaction like Spirit Shield. (The caveat being that it can only be used on adjacent allies.)

The Goading Attack maneuver can impose disadvantage against allies if you hit, much like Ancestral Protectors. (The caveats being the enemy gets a save against it, you can only use it for as many superiority dice as you have, and your ally doesn't gain resistance.)

By pushing those features onto Fighter (and picking up action surge and some other maneuvers at the same time), one could circle back to Barbarian and pick out some other path features they wouldn't otherwise have room for.

Ancestral Guardian probably does those things best, but Battle Master isn't too far behind.

[chiefwaha]

Another thought would be an answer I never got to a question: "What if two characters cast warding bond on each other?"
5 levels of cleric. A twilight cleric would be great for constant temp hp.

The way it works is that both get resistance to damage, one gets attacked, the damage is halved (because of resistance), and then half that damage is taken by the other, which is halved again (because of resistance). I am unclear if it creates an endless loop or not. The healing from each other, either replenishing temp HP or aura of vitality or something means that the damage taken is essentially instantly fixed.

Warding Bond can't be cast on both creatures. "It also ends if the spell is cast again on either of the connected creatures."