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ReluctantReaper
2007-11-18, 04:15 PM
should I multiclass into a figher/rogue for the bab and the fort but I dont know if i want to give up all the skills. So what do you think I should do? Stay a rogue or multicalss into fighter or something else?

Crispy Dave
2007-11-18, 04:16 PM
id stay a rouge or mabey go for a cool prestege class

Solo
2007-11-18, 04:17 PM
should I multiclass into a figher/rogue for the bab and the fort but I dont know if i want to give up all the skills. So what do you think I should do? Stay a rogue or multicalss into fighter or something else?

As rogue 20 is a dead level, it is common for rogues to take a cone level dip in some other class that can help them out somehow.

ReluctantReaper
2007-11-18, 04:17 PM
whats a level dip?

Sstoopidtallkid
2007-11-18, 04:21 PM
1 level of another class. After all, at 20, you get nothing. At all. It is the MOST useless level-up in the game, bar none.

Quietus
2007-11-18, 04:23 PM
whats a level dip?

When you take a single level of another class to gain advantage of some class feature they get at first level. For example, a one-level dip of Barbarian gets you Rage, and if you have Complete Champion, can get you Pounce. A one-level dip of Paladin gets you a weak smite evil, as well as Detect Evil at will; Comparably, two-level Pally dip gets Divine Grace (or whatever it's called), and three-level dip adds immunity to fear.

Crispy, I don't know what you've been playing, but my characters tend to be humanoid, not makeup.

ReluctantReaper
2007-11-18, 04:24 PM
ahh alright, so what class should i take?

Edit: Paladin wouldn't work, rogue is chaotic evil..barb might be good, but I dont konw exactly.

Crispy Dave
2007-11-18, 04:26 PM
mage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Sstoopidtallkid
2007-11-18, 04:28 PM
I say Barb, though a single level Wizard would actually be handy for you. Bard is good, too. Pally rarely works from a role-playing point of view. Fighter is always helpful, too. Really, anything is better than a 20th in rogue.

ReluctantReaper
2007-11-18, 04:30 PM
alright Id get mage, but I have umd at like plus 19 or 20 so no need there, but I think fighter or barb.

Crispy Dave
2007-11-18, 04:31 PM
whatever class that is that can cast invisiblity at first level(or was that in another game)

ReluctantReaper
2007-11-18, 04:35 PM
Id get mage, but I have umd at like plus 19 or 20 so no need there

I can jsut buy a wand of invisiblity...did you not read what I just wrote?

Jannex
2007-11-18, 04:38 PM
Ranger. You only miss out on 2 skill points, as opposed to the 6 that Fighter would cost you, and you get your full BAB/good Fort and Reflex saves, not to mention the free Track feat. Besides, I'm sure you can find a good use for that Favored Enemy, given that you're a CE Rogue. :smallwink:

ReluctantReaper
2007-11-18, 04:42 PM
ahh..ill have to look into that thanks.

RTGoodman
2007-11-18, 04:47 PM
Well, I don't think anyone else has mentioned it, but for the loss of some skill points, you could take one level in Assassin (http://systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/assassin.html). That'll net you +1d6 sneak attack, +2 Ref, maybe some minor spellcasting, a death attack, and poison use.

EDIT: Of course, it also requires that you be Evil-aligned, and it won't get you the good Fort save that you could get from, say, Barbarian or Fighter.

Chronos
2007-11-18, 04:49 PM
A good rule of thumb for character creation in general is to specialize at something. If there's something you're already good at, take choices which make you better at that, or which compliment those abilities in some way. In the rogue's case, what you're good at is skills. So if you multiclass, you should pick something which has a decent number of skill points, and has at least some of the skills you're emphasizing as class skills. If it's only a one-level dip, then it doesn't have to have all of your favorites as class skills, since you'll be able to catch those skills up at your next rogue level, but if you're planning on staying in the new class, you want it to have all your important skills as class skills. Even if it's only a one-level dip, though, it should have enough class skills that you like to use up that level's skill points.

So, more specifically, Fighter in your case would be a bad idea. You've already got all the weapon proficiencies you need, medium or heavy armor would penalize many of your skills, and a rogue doesn't actually need all that many feats.

Barbarian is better than Fighter, since you get more skill points than Fighter and fast movement (or Pounce, if you use that variant). You also get Rage, which is somewhat useful, but it doesn't really help your Sneak Attacks very much, and it'd prevent use of UMD (if, say, you want to sneak attack with a Ray of Frost). On the other hand, the barbarian's class skill list doesn't overlap much with the rogue's, so you wouldn't be able to put your skill points from that level into something useful to you.

Ranger doesn't get you as much as barbarian from a dip (mostly, Favored Enemy), but the ranger has a lot of skill points, and class skills include useful things like Hide, Move Silently, Listen, and Spot, so switching to Ranger (even full-time) would let you keep those skills high.

Since you say you're evil, assassin and blackguard might also be options, if you meet the other prerequisites, and might accomplish what you're looking for.

deadseashoals
2007-11-18, 05:01 PM
A common thing to do is to take 16 levels of rogue, and four levels of a full BAB class. All you lose is one rogue special ability, and you gain +16 BAB and the class features of another class - Ranger and Fighter are both pretty good for this.

Dode
2007-11-18, 05:02 PM
1 level of another class. After all, at 20, you get nothing. At all. It is the MOST useless level-up in the game, bar none. There's Spirit Shaman 20, wherein you gain the Fey type and therefore deal 20d6 damage to yourself when you use your Chastise Spirits ability. That's got to be up there.

AKA_Bait
2007-11-18, 05:03 PM
If you are allowed to go outside of Core then a 1 level dip into the following could be good as well:

Factotum- Inspiration Points, Everything is a class skill (dungeonscape)
Spelltheif- Sneak Attack +1d6 + low level steal spell (CAdv)
Ninja- +1 Sudden Strike stacks with Sneak Attack (CAdv)
Duskblade- Spells for the weapon, +1 BaB, light armored casting (PHBII)

Sornjss Lichdom
2007-11-18, 05:03 PM
yes as said before go for assassin or avenger (good assassin)

UserClone
2007-11-18, 05:10 PM
You could start cherry-picking classes with Sneak Attack/Sudden Strike...as an aside, what's the highest SA/SS one could get if you atart with a Rogue 11?

boomwolf
2007-11-18, 05:11 PM
Assassin is a good choice.

Also you might want to use the "alternate alignment" paladin variant. i think the CE one is called paladin of slaughter.

rouge 16/fighter 4 is also a good set. nets you 3 bonus feats and good BAB for not a high loss on the rouge part.


But to answer more truly I need to know your race and abilities.

Jannex
2007-11-18, 05:14 PM
rouge 16/fighter 4 is also a good set. nets you 3 bonus feats and good BAB for not a high loss on the rouge part.

Unless, y'know, you care at all about skills.

Rad
2007-11-18, 05:15 PM
if you have a feat to spare and use sneak attack a lot you might consider swashbuckler (full BAB) with the daring outlaw feat (levels stack for sneak attack and grace). Even better if you somehow didn't get weapon finesse yet or your DM allows you to take something else in its place.

That is, assuming you are looking for melee benefits. What are you focused on? What are your feats?

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-18, 05:19 PM
You can always use the various stacking to great effect, but I'd REALLY save that 20th level for shadowdancer. Hiding anywhere, provided your DM isn't an *******? Yes please!

mabriss lethe
2007-11-18, 05:29 PM
Binders from Tome of Magic, for some decent buffs

A level of Warlock might be fun, but not incredibly useful. Gain a ranged touch attack at will in the form of eldritch blast (that does mesh with sneak attack..so not that bad) access to one invocation, either to further mod the eldritch blast or for a simple magical ability. spiderwalk, entropic warding, or Devil's sight would be my choice. A few more levels (warlock 6 can choose from least or lesser invocations) would probably be better, gives you some nifty tricks at will like flight, invisibility, dimension door, curse, animate corpses,dispel magic, etc. Not to mention detect magic at will, dr1/cold iron, blast damage boosted to 3d6 and the ability to take 10 on UMD checks even when distracted or threatened. You know. I change my mind. Warlock would be an excellent choice, especially if you give it 6 or so levels, focus on invocations that are centered on you instead of ones to mod the eldritch blast or the handful of others that don't quite fit in other categories.

#Raptor
2007-11-18, 06:17 PM
Hm, how about using one or both of the fighter variants here?:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm

Take a look at the "Thug" fighter variant (gains you the Urban Tracking Feat, as well as Bluff, Gather Information, Knowledge (local), and Sleight of Hand as Fighter class skills).

Or the Sneak attack fighter below. Gives you Sneak attack instead of extra feats.
Maybe use both variants in combination, as mentioned in the sneak attack fighter variant.

KIDS
2007-11-18, 06:28 PM
There's Spirit Shaman 20, wherein you gain the Fey type and therefore deal 20d6 damage to yourself when you use your Chastise Spirits ability. That's got to be up there.

What the... that never occured to me but it looks like truth. Good catch there :)

Kantur
2007-11-18, 06:52 PM
1 level of another class. After all, at 20, you get nothing. At all. It is the MOST useless level-up in the game, bar none.


What about Hierophant 5?

Not only have you given up 4 casting levels before you take the fifth level, you've had to find 3 special abilities you want to take other than Divine Reach 30'.

Now you get no extra BAB, no improvement on any saves and another caster level lost and in exchange you get your D8 HD, 2+Int Skill points and another Special Ability....


But more on the lines of the original question, I think a level of Barbarian or Assassin would be good if you like sneak attacking (Barbarian for getting to your target quickly, raging if they're tougher than expected, +2 Fort save, +1BAB and a D12 hit dice is always nice. Assassin for Death Attack, similar skill set, +1d6 sneak attack and poison use and a couple of nice spells)

Person_Man
2007-11-18, 09:47 PM
Since you've already gone Rogue 11, I suggest just going Rogue 19/Whatever 1. Pick up the Savvy Rogue feat from Complete Scoundrel to improve your special abilities, and you'll be fine.

JaxGaret
2007-11-18, 10:03 PM
What about Hierophant 5?

Not only have you given up 4 casting levels before you take the fifth level, you've had to find 3 special abilities you want to take other than Divine Reach 30'.

You do mean Spell Power, right?

The best path to utilize levels in Hierophant is to go Hierophant4 with Practiced Spellcaster and Spell Power 4 times.

I guess that 5th level can be used for Divine Reach if you want it. It's pretty decent.

ReluctantReaper
2007-11-18, 10:04 PM
is there a link to the complete scoundral?

Im human just got to level 12 dual wield rapiers

Feats

Two wep fighting
Wepfinn Rapier
Ambidex
Qdraw
Wfoc Rapier maybe..I think thats it

And all basic skills of rogue...plus cook

Blasterfire
2007-11-18, 10:20 PM
I notice ambidexterity, youre playing 3.0?

JaxGaret
2007-11-18, 11:05 PM
I notice ambidexterity, youre playing 3.0?

That'd be really weird if they were playing 3.5 but still used Ambidexterity. :smallsmile:

TheOOB
2007-11-18, 11:56 PM
Think about it like this, what do you have to look forward to as a rogue? More special abilities, more sneak attack, and more skills. You probably already have enough ranks in most your skills, sneak attack is allready good, but too unreliable to be your only damage source, and the special abilities are fairly weak. I would suggest either going twords the tempest PrC (complete adventurer I belive), to get some awesome TWF ability, or if you have access to ToB going warblade, you'll start off as a decent initiator level right off and get some really good manuvers plus more BAB and HP to boot.

ReluctantReaper
2007-11-19, 03:54 PM
That'd be really weird if they were playing 3.5 but still used Ambidexterity.

I think that it is 3.5...but why would ambidex be weird? dont you need that and two wepon fighting so you dont have a super negative to hit while wielding dual weapons?

JaxGaret
2007-11-19, 04:08 PM
I think that it is 3.5...but why would ambidex be weird? dont you need that and two wepon fighting so you dont have a super negative to hit while wielding dual weapons?

There is no Ambidexterity feat in 3.5. It was folded into Two-Weapon Fighting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#twoWeaponFighting) in the conversion from 3.0.

It seems as if every character in D&D 3.5 is considered ambidextrous for rules purposes.

ReluctantReaper
2007-11-19, 04:09 PM
oh..I suppose im playing 3.0....whats the real difference between 3.0 amd 3.5?

Reptilius
2007-11-19, 04:14 PM
Not much for rogues. Here's the stuff changed featwise.

-No Ambidexterity.
-No need to choose one weapon for Weapon Finesse.
-Rapiers are one-handed; you need Oversived TWF from CAdv to minimize it.

JaxGaret
2007-11-19, 04:16 PM
oh..I suppose im playing 3.0....whats the real difference between 3.0 amd 3.5?

There are many, many changes from 3.0 to 3.5.

Here is a character conversion document that details many of the changes (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=3&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theocracyofthepale.com%2Fdown loads%2Flg_conversion.pdf&ei=gP1BR6LeOIXAggKWjbS0DA&usg=AFQjCNFF6FcA0brqGafULjRbUUFmZ_tH6A&sig2=TlqX1mUR89tb-wReyQ0E_A).

You can also look at the 3.0 SRD (http://www.dragon.ee/30srd/) and the 3.5 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/) to compare the two.

Keld Denar
2007-11-19, 04:19 PM
is there a link to the complete scoundral?

Im human just got to level 12 dual wield rapiers

Feats

Two wep fighting
Wepfinn Rapier
Ambidex
Qdraw
Wfoc Rapier maybe..I think thats it

And all basic skills of rogue...plus cook

Duel-wielding rapiers in 3.5 isn't really a great combo. They are not light weapons, so having one in your offhand nets you an extra -2 hit penalty for a total of -4 to main hand and offhand. It does appear that you are playing 3.0. I'd double check with your DM. If you are 11th level, you should look into taking Improved 2 Weapon Fighting, which will grant you a 2nd attack with your offhand (so you'll hit 4 times, 2 mainhand, 2 offhand). If you are really playing 3.5, swap Ambidextarity for ITWF. When you get your 3rd attack with your main hand (BAB+11) take Greater TWF and you'll get a 3rd attack with your offhand.

If your DM is letting you DW rapiers and only take a -2 to hit with all attacks, keep em. If your DM is forcing a -4 penalty on you for em, see if you can switch to short swords. The damage die is the same, but the crit range goes down 1 number. You lost the extra -2 to hit, which is worth the loss of crit threat range.

I also advocate the use of 1 level of shadow dancer. It'll get you out of trouble more often than not when you can hide in plain sight. Normally you have to be out of line of sight or have full cover to hide, HiPS allows you to hide any time you are in shadowy illumination, regardless of if someone is watching you. Then you can ambush them from hiding over and over again.

Yami
2007-11-19, 04:55 PM
I was going to suggest taking levels of scout, but the main problem I see is that you would want, but don't have the spring attack tree.

If you are still interested, complete scoundrel (for all your thieving needs!) has the class, which gives you a +1d6 on attacks made when you move 10ft or more. It levels somewhat like sneak attack, but with +1 to ac thrown in every other level up (i.e. lvl1 +1d6, lvl 3 +1ac, lvl 5 +1d6. lvl 7 +1ac...)

The real kicker is that at level 3 scout you can take a feat to allow your rouge levels to count for scout levels for your advancement. I think. Might want to double check before taking it, but if I'm right...

lvl 11 rouge lvl 3 scout gets
+6d6 sneak attack
+4d6 skirmish damage
+3ac

If you can move and sneak attack. But like I said, you'd want to have spring attack before it becomes feasible.

Jannex
2007-11-19, 05:58 PM
If you are still interested, complete scoundrel (for all your thieving needs!) has the class, which gives you a +1d6 on attacks made when you move 10ft or more. It levels somewhat like sneak attack, but with +1 to ac thrown in every other level up (i.e. lvl1 +1d6, lvl 3 +1ac, lvl 5 +1d6. lvl 7 +1ac...)

Complete Adventurer, actually. The feat you mention (Swift Ambusher) is in Complete Scoundrel, though. It only advances your skirmish damage, not your sneak attack (which may have actually been what you said, but I wanted to clarify that anyway).

Signmaker
2007-11-19, 06:29 PM
It largely depends on your feats/race/skills to decide to multiclass.

Rogue-PrC favorites of mine were Invisible Blade and Whisperknife. Feinting as a free action is always good times.

cupkeyk
2007-11-19, 06:36 PM
I you do get a single level of ranger, take the urban ranger variant as your skill points will veer more towards gather info than survival, as such track is less useful than urban tracking.

Mike_G
2007-11-19, 07:31 PM
Shadow dancer is ncie. the Hide in Plain Sight is good, you only lose two Skill points, BAB and Saves stay the same. If you put a few levels in it Shadow Step and Summon Shadow can be nice tricks up your sleeve.

Beguiler is a very good option, since it still gives high skill points, very similar class list, plus a great spell list.

Chronos
2007-11-19, 09:49 PM
I also advocate the use of 1 level of shadow dancer.I've been thinking about Shadow Dancer... One of the prereqs is Combat Reflexes, and I'd like to get some use out of it. What are good ways (preferably core ones) for rogues to get lots of Attack of Opportunity opportunities? The best I can think of is to hide somewhere in the middle of the battlefield where folks will have to move past.

Armads
2007-11-19, 10:14 PM
wield a reach weapon? It'll help with your flanking, too.

Balkash
2007-11-19, 10:22 PM
At least take rogue until 13th level, that way you can get the special improved evasion, then you can switch over to a more melee class. Ranger sounds good, assassin too. Though if you are just looking for saves, try monk. I'm not sure what that would do for your backstory, but it might work well.

Enlong
2007-11-19, 11:02 PM
Hm, too late to get 10 levels in a PRC, but if you so choose, I would suggest a level of an arcane Spellcaster, then PRC into Arcane Trikster. You get Spell Levels, Ranged Ledgermain, AND extra sneak attack progression.

Alternatively, Shadowdancer (the Shadow Familiar can flank for you)

Chronos
2007-11-20, 03:23 PM
wield a reach weapon? It'll help with your flanking, too.Hm, I guess a darkwood longspear might be worthwhile. I hadn't noticed that rogues were proficient with those.

At least take rogue until 13th level, that way you can get the special improved evasion, then you can switch over to a more melee class.Personally, I wouldn't bother with Improved Evasion, since it only does anything for you if you fail a reflex save, which isn't going to happen very often for a rogue. And heck, even if you do fail a reflex save, a level 13 character should be able to eat the 35 damage or so from a failed-save fireball.

Temp
2007-11-20, 06:54 PM
Hm, too late to get 10 levels in a PRC, but if you so choose, I would suggest a level of an arcane Spellcaster, then PRC into Arcane Trikster. You get Spell Levels, Ranged Ledgermain, AND extra sneak attack progression.Good luck getting 3rd level spells in a short dip. Unseen Seer (CM) doesn't have as many offensive options, but has considerably easier entry.

ReluctantReaper
2007-11-20, 10:39 PM
I was going to suggest taking levels of scout, but the main problem I see is that you would want, but don't have the spring attack tree.

If you are still interested, complete scoundrel (for all your thieving needs!) has the class, which gives you a +1d6 on attacks made when you move 10ft or more. It levels somewhat like sneak attack, but with +1 to ac thrown in every other level up (i.e. lvl1 +1d6, lvl 3 +1ac, lvl 5 +1d6. lvl 7 +1ac...)

The real kicker is that at level 3 scout you can take a feat to allow your rouge levels to count for scout levels for your advancement. I think. Might want to double check before taking it, but if I'm right...

lvl 11 rouge lvl 3 scout gets
+6d6 sneak attack
+4d6 skirmish damage
+3ac

If you can move and sneak attack. But like I said, you'd want to have spring attack before it becomes feasible.

Is there a link for this I need it by Wenesday before 7 pm

kyuubigan
2007-11-20, 10:50 PM
If you have high Dex and Int, I suggest going into swashbuckler, and at fifteenth level take the Daring Outlaw feat, which stacks Swashbuckler and Rogue levels for sneak attack damage. Also at third level, Swashbucklers have the best BAB, good fortitude saves (which rogues lack), they get 4 skill points per level, but an 11th level Rogue's skills are high enough, AND they add their intellegence bonus to their damage rolls, but only if the weapon can be used in concert with the Weapon Finesse feat.

*heavy breathing* just a suggestion, but I built one based on this principle, and he killed the boss character in a module on his first full attack, though that takes flanking into account. Ah well I'm rambling, I just thought I'd throw that out there.

ReluctantReaper
2007-11-20, 10:52 PM
do you have a link to the swashbuckler build...setup/what ever it is. The class page that would be in the book.

kyuubigan
2007-11-20, 11:00 PM
do you have a link to the swashbuckler build...setup/what ever it is. The class page that would be in the book.

Swashbuckler is on page 10 in Complete Warrior, and the Daring Outlaw feat is on page 76 of Complete Scoundrel. You'll meet the requirements after taking the third level of Swashbuckler, seeing as the only requirements are +2d6 sneak attack and +1 grace bonus, which you get at the second level of Swashbuckler. It really is a fun build, especially if you manage to flank an enemy for a full attack...it is quite satisfying.

ReluctantReaper
2007-11-20, 11:04 PM
ehh..i meant did you have a link...I really need to buy some books.

kyuubigan
2007-11-20, 11:11 PM
ehh..i meant did you have a link...I really need to buy some books.

Oi! Of course, here:




[URL=]"http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070105a&page=4" (]"http://www.triskpoli.com/dnd-articles/character-class/Swashbuckler_class.php"[/URL)

ReluctantReaper
2007-11-20, 11:11 PM
nothing is there..?

Edit: Never mind. :smallconfused:

kyuubigan
2007-11-20, 11:12 PM
Look now. I made a mistake with the post. My bad!

ReluctantReaper
2007-11-20, 11:16 PM
I will have to show to my Dm..We play something kind of werid, I was talking and he said its 3.0/3.5 so I said kind of our own thing then right? and he replyed no we play 3.0...I was deeply confused afterwords...and we only have magic books no other ones.

kyuubigan
2007-11-20, 11:18 PM
Well I hope that your dm foolishly says yes...

ReluctantReaper
2007-11-20, 11:19 PM
the funny thing is in the fight tomorrow he has an assassin, and I have a rogue/swash buckler hopefully..if not pure rogue then..

kyuubigan
2007-11-20, 11:23 PM
the funny thing is in the fight tomorrow he has an assassin, and I have a rogue/swash buckler hopefully..if not pure rogue then..

That would make for an interesting fight

ReluctantReaper
2007-11-20, 11:23 PM
it would except his assassin has like 30 spot...

herrhauptmann
2007-11-21, 02:29 AM
Wish to the gods and make yourself a whisper gnome instead of a human.
At fifth level (3 rog, 2 cleric, I want a black flame zealot of Hextor)a whisper gnome with 18 dex (they get dex bonus) has a +20 hide and +13 move silently, without any magic bonuses.

Imagine what a rogue12 can pull off.

kyuubigan
2007-11-29, 03:15 PM
it would except his assassin has like 30 spot...

Oh you're playing a stealth rogue?

ReluctantReaper
2007-11-29, 03:56 PM
that campagin is over..so what should I be now?

Xocelot
2007-11-30, 02:34 PM
Take 1 level in Assassin. You'll get and extra d6 of sneak attack every other level.