Generic Spellcaster optimization

[Soranar]

Ok so I've been looking into the generic spellcaster (from unearthed arcana) and I'm wondering what's the best possible build using that class.

Arcane or Divine?

-I'm thinking Divine just because it lets you use armor and shields even without proficiencies even though INT is a better casting stats to get skillpoints. Wisdom boost races are also pretty easy to find.

Which spellknowns would you suggest?

-The druid/cleric/wizard/sorcerer list is pretty big, it's going to be tough to choose.

Race and/or template

-If I'm going divine then I'm thinking something crazy like a Jermlaine. A dragonborn of bahamut Jermlaine, with wings. Unfortunately a Jermlaine can't be a necropolitan

-If I'm going arcane then I'm definitely playing a necropolitan

Finally should I bother investing into sneak attack? It's bonus damage but it's not strickly necessary, thoughts?

[Maat Mons]

If you go with divine spellcasting, you can pick up Turn Undead as a feat, and then add on some of the feats that require spending uses of Turn Undead.

If you go with arcane spellcasting, you can pick up a Familiar as a feat, and then have it scout, activate wands, and provide comic relief.

I'm not sure about Sneak Attack. You've got a poor base attack bonus and no good weapon proficiencies. I guess you could always apply it to spells that involve a ranged touch attack. But it might be better to focus on save-or-lose spells instead.

If prestige classes are allowed, Generic Spellcaster with Sneak Attack as a feat could lead in to Unseen Seer pretty easily. But because Generic Spellcaster is one level behind Wizard on spell access, you still wouldn't wind up ahead of the standard entry of a Wizard with a Rogue dip. Also, combining the generic class' class-features-as-feats thing with regular classes that provide actual class features sounds like something most DMs wouldn't allow.

[Rebel7284]

"Best possible" is not really a thing that's applicable to D&D since you can easily get infinite everything at very low levels. I find it more often to find a general optimization tier and optimize to that.

I am going to assume high optimization without infinite loops as the baseline since that's common to this forum and I personally like it. :smallsmile:

In general, you give up some of the incredible strategic power of prepared casters - the ability to completely change the spell loadout daily, in exchange for slightly better tactical choices in combat like a sorcerer/favored soul hybrid.

If prestige classes are allowed, then not much changes. You find a powerful prestige class, enter it as soon as possible, and optimize around its class features. Incantatrix, Shadowcraft Mage, Dweomerkeeper, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, etc.
Take some broken caster feats such as Craft Contingent Spell.
In this case, you need to go with whatever type of casting the class you want requires.

If prestige classes are not allowed, Divine is probably better since you can get turn undead with a feat and Divine Metamagic [Persistent Spell] is a really powerful form of metamagic reduction that you can do without any prestige class levels.

Jermlaine can work fine I guess, but Anthropomorphic Bat has the same +6 Wis with less penalties. Small instead of Tiny, though.

While the D12HD and immunities from Necropolitan are useful, it seems like a roleplaying nightmare due to general attitudes toward the undead and the plethora of anti-undead abilities available. With that said, if you can pull off Necropolitan + Faerie Mysteries Initiate for some creepy undead sex, you can have your d12HD + Int modifier for hit points, which is likely higher than the Barbarian.

As far as Sneak Attack, the common maxim of optimized casters is that you do not want to do damage most of the time. Everyone in your party can do damage, but the spellcaster is in a unique place where they can use battlefield control, buffs and debuffs to control the flow of combat, or use spells to completely bypass encounters. If you would like to enter Unseen Seer to play a sneaky and skillful caster, that's fine, but I certainly would advice against taking Improved/Greater sneak attack at least at the higher optimization levels. It's cute that the game rules allow you to Sneak Attack with Disintegrate if you want, but those are resources that could have been used towards making it a Empowered + Split Ray Disinitegrate if you want blasting in the first place or, you know, a Summon Monster 6 that lasts for a bunch of rounds and may have multiple spell-like abilities.

[Troacctid]

Sneak attack is embarrassingly cheap on the generic classes, and it's a very good ability. It'll let you qualify for some great prestige classes and feats basically effortlessly. I say snap it up, unless you have a very good reason not to.

Anyone who says casters shouldn't be dealing damage is just wrong. Dealing damage is a highly effective strategy, and casters can deal damage better than almost anybody else. Spontaneous casters in particular are really good at it!

[Gruftzwerg]

Sneak attack is embarrassingly cheap on the generic classes, and it's a very good ability. It'll let you qualify for some great prestige classes and feats basically effortlessly. I say snap it up, unless you have a very good reason not to.

Anyone who says casters shouldn't be dealing damage is just wrong. Dealing damage is a highly effective strategy, and casters can deal damage better than almost anybody else. Spontaneous casters in particular are really good at it!

I agree on the sneak attack part.

But not so much on the part that casters deal damage better than anybody else. Sure (full) casters can be build to deal damage. But imho the amount of build defining resources (e.g. feat, prc lvl..) is to heavy compared to mundanes/gishes who aim for the same thing. Further the damage per day is another bottleneck for casters which doesn't apply to mundanes since most of their options for damage are at-will abilities. Both have their ups and downs. Casters can easier build AoE damage, while mundanes can easier build for single target damage (exceptions exist for both!).

Further, caster need some heavy investment and much more lvls to be able to kill at least a single enemy per turn/action. A mundane can start killing multiple enemies per action/round starting at lvl 1 (high Str + Power Attack + Cleave as Fighter or Human).

My point is, that imho, full caster damage builds have to give up to much for what they get. Not saying it's impossible. On the other hand, gish builds face similar consequences. So if a gish can live with it, a full caster can live with it too. You just need to be aware of the trade off your are making with a full caster damage build.

[Anthrowhale]

The spell selection possibilities are remarkably broad, so it would help to narrow down the role. Are you imagining a spellcaster in a party of 4 with another spellcaster? Or something else? Do you know what other characters there are?

You can pick up additional spells known via Cerebrosis (which is _free_), or Mother Cyst (which is great for minioning), then using the spells known swap provided by Sorcerer to expand your list.

2d6 Sneak attack is pretty powerful at level 1. The only other way to get that is via halfling rogue.

At level 4, Snowsight + Obscuring Snow comes online.

Maybe an opening like:

Human: Extend Spell
Generic 1: Sneak attack
1. Mother Cyst
3. Persistent Spell.
<free> Cerebrosis
Generic 5. Turn Undead
6. DMM[Persistent Spell]

You could give up on sneak attack for an earlier persistent spell or alternate race.

[Soranar]

Ok in this case the anthropomorphic bat has some upside since it gets blindsense and it can become a necropolitan.

But Jermlaine has 40ft movement speed, the bat has 5 or 20 in flight

So I guess I'd need a mount or I'm always in flight.

If I end up going the sneak attack route, the Jermlaine's DEX and size are definitely a win here. So far I'm still thinking Jermlaine+ Dragonborn of Bahamut if that's what I go for.

Shadowcraft mage is tempting but you can realistically enter it by level 9 since I get a sorcerer's progression. So you only get to mimic spells by level 11, that's too late. Not worth losing the +6 to wisdom from playing a bat or a Jermlaine.

Now, assuming I go dragonborn of bahamut jermlaine divine sneak attacker

my 4 skills must be concentration, spellcraft, hide and move silently

Level 1 point blank shotsneak attack (2d6)
Level 2
Level 3 open feat
Level 4
Level 5 turn undead
Level 6 open feat
Level 7-11 Spellward Sniper

I still need to pick my spells. I'm thinking orb of force to make a sneaky mailman build

But a mailman just needs orb of force and true strike, still have plenty of spells to choose

[Anthrowhale]

For a mailman build, standard alternates (sorcerer or warmage) are pretty strong. The advantage you have is just spell selection, skill selection, and sneak attack.

You might consider something like

Silverbrow Human Spellcaster (divine)
Bonus: Iron Will
1. Reserves of Strength//caster level+3, stunned for 3 rounds
Spellcaster 1: Sneak Attack//2d6 sneak attack
3. Craven//+level sneak attack
Spellcaster 5: Ocular Spell//two spells in one round
6. Practical Metamagic[Ocular Spell]//now practical
9. Elder Giant Magic//caster level+3
Spellcaster 10: Improved Sneak Attack//+3d6 sneak attack.
...

With chosen skills Hide, Move Silently, Spellcraft, ??

Spells might look like:
1. Lesser Orb of Sound, Snowsight
2. Obscuring Snow, Sense Weakness
4. Orb of Force, Surge of Fortune

This allows you to deliver 4d6 in a single attack initially with sneak attack triggered. At 4th level, your ability to trigger sneak attack reliably grows significantly. At 6th level Ocular spell comes online, allowing you to deliver two spells at once---and I think sneak attack applies to both of them since it's a full round action (RC page 42) that hits with two distinct spells rather than twice with one spell (RC page 136). So, at level 6 you could do 5d6+2d6(sneak attack)+6(craven) x2 ~= 61 sonic damage when discharging your eyes. At level 8, you can critical hit at will, and at level 10 you get another substantial sneak attack boost.

[Rebel7284]

Shadowcraft mage is tempting but you can realistically enter it by level 9 since I get a sorcerer's progression. So you only get to mimic spells by level 11, that's too late. Not worth losing the +6 to wisdom from playing a bat or a Jermlaine.


There is an adaptation section in the class description that would allow you to play a different race.



Adaptation

A cabal of nongnome illusionists could certainly use this prestige class; simply replace the racial requirement with a requirement that shadowcraft mages be members of the cabal.


How long do you expect the game to go since level 11 is too late?

[Soranar]

There is an adaptation section in the class description that would allow you to play a different race.



How long do you expect the game to go since level 11 is too late?

Most games I've played finish around level 10, if they ever reach that. The one exception was a high powered thing but that started at level 6.

So far it looks like we have a Barbarian type and a Ranger. The ranger will be our trapfinder, so I won't have to handle those. The last player will be a druid.

[Rebel7284]

What are your DM's thoughts on early entry?

Bonus feat: Turn Undead
1: Spell Focus: Illusion
Flaw 1: Highten Spell
Flaw 2: Divine Metamagic[Highten Spell]

- Join a cabal of illusionists
- Take Net of Shadows as your Shadow spell, and you can cast it as a 4th level spell by using Turn Undead attempts. Whether or not this counts is up to the DM, but Heighten spell does say that the affected spell is treated in all ways like it's a higher level spell.
- Enter Shadowcraft Mage at level 2.
- Emulate spells starting at ECL 4, including 8th level spells since that Silent Image can be 9th level due to Heighten.
- Get banned from playing with this group because you chose optimization level higher than the rest of your group.

[Soranar]

What are your DM's thoughts on early entry?

Bonus feat: Turn Undead
1: Spell Focus: Illusion
Flaw 1: Highten Spell
Flaw 2: Divine Metamagic[Highten Spell]

- Join a cabal of illusionists
- Take Net of Shadows as your Shadow spell, and you can cast it as a 4th level spell by using Turn Undead attempts. Whether or not this counts is up to the DM, but Heighten spell does say that the affected spell is treated in all ways like it's a higher level spell.
- Enter Shadowcraft Mage at level 2.
- Emulate spells starting at ECL 4, including 8th level spells since that Silent Image can be 9th level due to Heighten.
- Get banned from playing with this group because you chose optimization level higher than the rest of your group.

Early entry is fine but flaws are not , besides you still need to know 3 illusion spells so that won't happen until level 3 minimum if you spend all of your spell knowns on illusion.

But just the feat requirements means level 6 so I'd save 1 whole level and I'd get useful spells by level 9. Useful but not gamebreaking by any means.

Or I can just pick the useful conjuration spell I need to know from the start and stay versatile through skillpoints.

[Rebel7284]

Early entry is fine but flaws are not , besides you still need to know 3 illusion spells so that won't happen until level 3 minimum if you spend all of your spell knowns on illusion.

But just the feat requirements means level 6 so I'd save 1 whole level and I'd get useful spells by level 9. Useful but not gamebreaking by any means.

Or I can just pick the useful conjuration spell I need to know from the start and stay versatile through skillpoints.

Level 0 spells are still spells and with a quick google search, there are exactly 3 Illusion level 0 spells in the game (you only need two of them).
Ghost Sound (core)
Unnerving Gaze (BoVD)
Silent Portal (SpC)

You do get another bonus feat at 5th, so you could enter Shadowcraft Mage at 6th with no flaws or further shenanigans and be casting 8th level spells by level 8.

edit: Admittedly, you probably do want Silent Image at some point to actually use Shadowcraft Mage's abilities :smallwink:

edit2: Of course this also means that you can chose a different Shadow spell as well. Shadow Spray is nifty. :smallsmile:

[paladinn]

I've become a huge fan of the generic classes. I wonder if there's a way to rig the "sidekick" classes in 5e to be even more generic.

The generic spellcaster has soo much potential! Especially given that so many class features have been turned into feats. You can have an arcane caster who turns undead, etc. I wouldn't worry about trying to make him/her a melee combatant with all the magic possibilities.

One thing I Wish they had made a feat is the druid's wildshape ability. But there is a workaround: Pathfinder has a spell called Beast Shape that does pretty much the same thing. And if you don't want to burn a feat on turn undead, there's a spell called Disrupt Undead that would work in a pinch.

Lots and lots of possibilities!