Cursing with no save

[Greywander]

I've taken a stab at writing up witch subclasses for both warlock and druid (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?638559-Witch-themed-subclasses-for-druid-and-warlock), and I've also looked over KibblesTasty's Occultist class (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?638813-Some-quibbles-for-KibblesTasty-s-Occultist-(Witch-subclass-specifically)), which has a witch subclass. I think any of these are... fine. They work, they're functional. But the witch is such a weird concept (deliberately; unconventionality is part of their trademark) that I think it can only be captured by creating an entirely new Witch class. Warlock is close, but relies too heavily on EB, whereas I don't really think of witches as being blasters.

With that in mind, one of the features I was considering for this new class was something sort of similar to metamagic, where they learn Curses and can apply one Curse they know to a target of Bane, Hex, or Bestow Curse. At the moment, I'm not thinking that Curses would cost anything to use, they would simply be a straight upgrade to these spells. Each of these three spells has slightly different use-cases: Bane can let you curse multiple enemies, Bestow Curse can get up to a permanent duration with no concentration (and is already pretty nasty by itself), and Hex... Hex doesn't require a save, and can get to a 24 hour duration much easier than Bestow Curse can, and you can move it to a new target if the previous one dies.

Is this an issue? Being able to inflict a curse on someone with no save? It is only single target, and without something like EB you miss out on the major benefits of Hex anyway. So maybe it's fine?

I was also considering partially lifting concentration requirements for Bane and Hex specifically, probably as a T2 or T3 feature. You'd still have to concentrate, and casting the spell again would end the previous casting, but you could concentrate on a different spell at the same time. This would somewhat degrade the usefulness of Bestow Curse becoming non-concentration when cast at higher levels.

[stoutstien]

Without seeing the whole class it's hard to say. I've played around with concepts with at-will leveled casting with good results so the bones of it would work. Bestow curse is really the only one that would need some form of gate.

Personally I like the artificer chassis for a witch subclass that doesn't feel overly Blasty. Eventually I'll finish mine but it's knee deep in the pile of ideas to be worked on.

[Amnestic]

Bestow Curse with no save is...concerning to me. Being able to just say "you have disadvantage on this save, and you can do nothing about it" is pretty potent. I guess part of it might depend on the level it comes online and uses per long rest though.




Personally I like the artificer chassis for a witch subclass that doesn't feel overly Blasty. Eventually I'll finish mine but it's knee deep in the pile of ideas to be worked on.

I stapled pathfinder's witch hexes (well, as many of them as I wanted to convert) to the artificer in 5e, not had a chance to play it yet but I think it'll work out okay.

[Greywander]

I've played around with concepts with at-will leveled casting with good results so the bones of it would work. Bestow curse is really the only one that would need some form of gate.
To clarify, you still have to cast the spell normally, and if the spell sticks, then you can add one of your Curses as an additional spell effect. I didn't mention it in the OP, but I'm leaning toward some form of Pact Magic for casting, with at-will Bane being given at 1st level (Bane works pretty well as an at-will spell, since it's concentration and requires a save). So for Bestow Curse, you'd be burning a pact magic slot, or whatever I end up replacing Mystic Arcanum with (in order to get that 9th level permanent duration). Likewise, Hex would also use a slot.


Bestow Curse with no save is...concerning to me.
No no, they still have to save against Bestow Curse. It's specifically the Hex spell that doesn't require a save. Once you inflict one of these curse spells on a target, you would be able to add one of the Curses you know as an additional effect. The point of this thread was that the Hex spell, specifically, doesn't require a save, so you could just cast it and inflict one of your Curses on the target with no save. Bane and Bestow Curse would still allow a save.

Edit: To further clarify, we have three curse spells (Bane, Hex, and Bestow Curse), and then separately, we have metamagic-esque Curses that add an additional effect when you apply one of your curse spells to a target. The spell has to land first, then you can apply one of your Curses on top of the spell's normal effect.