Tashalatora / Fist of the Forest

[schreier]

If I had a Monk 2 / Psion 5 / Fist of the Forest 3 / Psion 5 with Tashalatora linked to psion - how would it calculate unarmed damage?

At effective monk level 7 (monk 2/ psion 5) I would do 1d8 damage.
Taking fist of the forest 3 raises me two advances - 1d10, then 2d6. When I go back into psion, does it advance form effective level 12 (the lowest 2d6), or do I recalculate the fist of the forest "advance two damage levels"? If I recalculate, I would have monk 12 (Monk 2, psion 5 + psion 5), 2d6 - advancing two damage levels gives me 2d6 then 2d10 (level 20 equivalent).

That makes the most sense from a simplicity perspective, but I wanted to see if other people had any experience going into fist of the forest, then continuing with a monk open-hand damage.

[Gruftzwerg]

You first calculate your effective monk lvl and then add the FotF step-increase.

You can also add either a Monk's Belt (+5 lvl) or Monk's Tattoo (+4 lvl) in between if you like. (either one, they don't stack!)

+ 7 from effective monk lvl (emlvl) from classes
+ 5 (emlvl) from Monk's Belt
= effectively a 12lvl monk 2d6
+ 2 step increases by FotF > 2d8 > 2d10

[Darg]

Fist of the Forest only advances you by one step for UAS damage. At level 1 if you already do 1d8 you instead do 1d10. By level 3 you are doing 1d10 so increase it to 2d6.

Also, your build is entering FotF too early. It has a requirement of +4 BAB which you won't have unless you have 3 monk/5 psion or 2 monk/6 psion. This means your first FotF level is at CL 9. At this point you get UAS damage of 2d6 and at CL 11/FotF 3 it stays at 2d6 because it only improves a step if you do 1d10. Normal progression would see you having 2d6 at CL 12 and 2d8 at CL 16. With 3 levels of FotF you would get 2d8 at CL 15, only 1 level ahead of normal progression.

A monk 2/psion 6/FotF 3/Psion 4 would have the UAS damage of 2d8. 12 effective monk levels (2d6) plus the one step increase of FotF (2d8).

[Gruftzwerg]

Fist of the Forest only advances you by one step for UAS damage. At level 1 if you already do 1d8 you instead do 1d10. By level 3 you are doing 1d10 so increase it to 2d6.

Also, your build is entering FotF too early. It has a requirement of +4 BAB which you won't have unless you have 3 monk/5 psion or 2 monk/6 psion. This means your first FotF level is at CL 9. At this point you get UAS damage of 2d6 and at CL 11/FotF 3 it stays at 2d6 because it only improves a step if you do 1d10. Normal progression would see you having 2d6 at CL 12 and 2d8 at CL 16. With 3 levels of FotF you would get 2d8 at CL 15, only 1 level ahead of normal progression.

A monk 2/psion 6/FotF 3/Psion 4 would have the UAS damage of 2d8. 12 effective monk levels (2d6) plus the one step increase of FotF (2d8).

The FotF steps are always calculated last. This is because it is an ongoing passive effect that increases based on the current effective monk lvls.

I also assume that schreier used fractional BAB to enter FotF. With fractional BAB he has +4 BAB:
2 x 0.75 = 1.5
5 x 0.5 = 2.5
1.5 + 2.5 = 4

[Darg]

The FotF steps are always calculated last. This is because it is an ongoing passive effect that increases based on the current effective monk lvls.

I also assume that schreier used fractional BAB to enter FotF. With fractional BAB he has +4 BAB:
2 x 0.75 = 1.5
5 x 0.5 = 2.5
1.5 + 2.5 = 4

The BAB thing makes sense. Though entering at 9 gives 2d6 damage at level 1.

FotF unarmed damage step increase only works once. It's a single ability. Your damage is 1d8 (amazing for tiny monks) or increases to 1d10 or one step up. There is no second step increase as you can only already have 1d10 or higher once.


Unarmed Damage (Ex): Your unarmed attacks deal more damage than usual. At 1st level, you deal 1d8 points of damage with each unarmed strike. When you attain 3rd level, this damage increases to 1d10 points. See the monk class feature (PH41). If your unarmed attack already deals this amount of damage, increase the base damage to the next step indicated on the monk class table.

[Gruftzwerg]

The BAB thing makes sense. Though entering at 9 gives 2d6 damage at level 1.

FotF unarmed damage step increase only works once. It's a single ability. Your damage is 1d8 (amazing for tiny monks) or increases to 1d10 or one step up. There is no second step increase as you can only already have 1d10 or higher once.

There is no reason to assume that the sentence only applies once.

If your unarmed attack already deals this amount of damage, increase the base damage to the next step indicated on the monk class table.

In fact, even at lvl 1 FotF, you can get stuck into a loop with this ability for multiple times. The ability doesn't start the count on your monk's unarmed damage. It starts it at the mentioned 1d8/1d10 ("this amount of damage") and goes to the next step from there. As long as the triggers condition is fulfilled, the ability will repeat itself since its an ongoing passive ability.

Let me show it with 2 examples:

A)
Monk 12 / FotF 1
monk 12 = 2d6

FotF now tries to give the monk 1d8 dmg. But he already does that much (and more..) dmg. Thus you go to next step (from the 1d8!) on the monk table, which would be 1d10. Remind you, that the quoted sentence is ongoing passive effect that is still there checking if it gets triggered. Well, your monk (again) already does 1d10 dmg (and more..), so the ability of FotF kicks in again, increasing your unarmed damage to the next step on the monks table, which would be 2d6. The ability checks again, gets triggered again and increases your damage to 2d8. Now the ability doesn't get triggered anymore, but it still is constantly checking in the background.

B)
Monk 12 / FotF 3

Since this is similar, I'll shorten it up. The 2 damage increases (1d8 & 1d10) and the check if you already do this much damage are all 3 (!) constant passive effects. Which means that you go twice trough the above mentioned loop. The first loop when the ability tries to give you the 1d8 damage and the second time when it tries to give you 1d10 damage.
After the first loop for the 1d8 you end up with 2d8 (as we already checked above).
The second loop then tries to give you 1d10 and checks it against your 2d8 damage, finally ending at 2d10 damage.

[Darg]

There is every reason the sentence only applies once. It's a single effect from a single ability with 2 conditionals. The idea that it is two separate abilities that activate from separate sources is quite out of the blue.

[Gruftzwerg]

There is every reason the sentence only applies once. It's a single effect from a single ability with 2 conditionals. The idea that it is two separate abilities that activate from separate sources is quite out of the blue.


Note that a single ability/spell can create multiple partial effects. And that is the chase here.

The ability is gained twice (1d8 & 1d10), thus you go twice through the loop (created by the line "if you already do this damage..").

Try to see it like the sneak attack text rule:

This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter.
It's a single ability that gets repeated multiple times scaling with your lvl. Every time you get another +1d6 extra sneak attack damage increase "effect" that stacks on you.

Same with the unarmed strike ability of FotF. It gets a second instance at lvl 3 which causes it to apply 2 (partial) effects on you. And each of those partial effect has to go through the loop as said.

You are under the impression that those are instantaneous effects only gained on lvl up, but they are passive effects that are constantly on your character. The table just sums them up for you, but they don't vanish. Remember that text trumps table. Table is just for a better visualization, nothing more.