Optimizing Heroics

[Jervis]

This is one part optimization and one part ruling nonsense. Namely i'm positing the implications of casting Heroics at will. Heroics as a spell gives the target any feat from the fighter bonus feat list they qualify for. That raises a question. What happens if you cast it twice? Three times? twenty times? Do the spells overlap in such a way that each one gives the creature a different feat? And if so, could you, hypothetically speaking, make a use activated custom magic item that allows you to cast the spell at will for a base cost of 18,000 before applying crafting discounts that allows you to reapply the spell multiple times every hour or so to get every fighter feat you qualify for?

If this does work, and i'm not 100% sure it does, what are the best choices outside of the obvious improved initiative, save boosters, etc? For my money i think it would be fun for a Chameleon to let you make a different fighter build every day.

[Rebel7284]

All custom items are subject to DM discretion. There are certain guidelines, sure, but the guidelines are very clear that the DM can and should compare the power of each item to other similar items and adjust the price accordingly.

Whether or not you can benefit from a different "mode" of the same spell multiple times is unclear in the rules.
- If you can't then this discussion is over.
- If you can, then you can certainly use various resources to give someone a ton of feats, sure, but the utility of that is questionable since there are only so many good fighter feats out there.

Also, note that Mirror Move is an old 3.0 spell that can give you MULTIPLE feats at once, is not limited to fighter feats, and can be Persisted, so it might be more efficient to use that spell if you want a dozen feats all day. Works best with leadership since you do need to see the feat in action first.

[AvatarVecna]

Alright let's break this down into pieces to make answering easier:


This is one part optimization and one part ruling nonsense. Namely i'm positing the implications of casting Heroics at will. Heroics as a spell gives the target any feat from the fighter bonus feat list they qualify for. That raises a question. What happens if you cast it twice? Three times? twenty times? Do the spells overlap in such a way that each one gives the creature a different feat?

SRD link. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#combiningMagicalEffects)


Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. For example, a series of polymorph spells might turn a creature into a mouse, a lion, and then a snail. In this case, the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

This is a weird question to answer because the RAW isn't as clear-cut as I'd like it to be. In the above quote, the unbolded part is the "general rule", while the bolded part is a particular example, and the underlined part makes it unclear whether "this case" is an exception to the general rule, or an ideal example of it. If it's ideal, then multiple castings of Heroics do not stack - you can only benefit from one Heroics spell at a time. If it's an exception that's specifically because of how Polymorph is weird, then Heroics can self-stack. A better example would've been Bestow Curse, which can have multiple different effects, but being under one doesn't automatically make the others irrelevant; if the PH had specified what happens when under multiple Bestow Curse spells, it would do a better job illustrating whether Heroics stacking is legal or not.

RAI, this is difficult to rule on. If I were looking for a ruling that is most in line with the existing stacking rules, I'd probably err on the side that they can't stack. I don't necessarily think it would break anything if they did - an extra fighter feat for a few hours isn't broken, and neither is two of them. What would actually break things is if you had some way of really spamming them.

So, we can acknowledge that even at best, the RAW is not clear-cut in favor of stacking, and that reading/ruling in favor of self-stacking Heroics isn't going to be universal by any stretch. Now, let's continue on the assumption that a DM has agreed to either a reading or a ruling that allows you to self-stack Heroics.


And if so, could you, hypothetically speaking, make a use activated custom magic item that allows you to cast the spell at will for a base cost of 18,000 before applying crafting discounts that allows you to reapply the spell multiple times every hour or so to get every fighter feat you qualify for?

A continuous Heroics effect would cost 18000 (spell level 2 x caster level 3 x continuous 2000 x duration 1.5 = 18000). However, an at-will use-activated heroics would cost 12000 (spell level 2 x caster level 3 x use activated 2000 = 12000), while an at-will command word heroics would cost 10800 (spell level 2 x caster level 3 x command word 1800 = 10800). The duration modifier is only for continuous effects. The tradeoff in this case is that you're spending 18000 to get a single infinite duration feat, vs spending 10800/12000 to get a feat that lasts 30 minutes. If you want it to last longer per casting, you need to pay more money - 3600 or 4000 per additional 10 minutes.

That being said, all of these costs can be quite debatable. The chart in the DMG is pretty explicitly guidelines for approximating prices, and particularly when it comes to at-will/continuous spells, it can get very tricky to find something where the price isn't too high or too low. A wand of Heroics would be similar to an at-will item, but would only get 50 charges and would cost 4500 instead. Is it fair to pay the same cost for infinite charges as a normal player would pay for 120 charges?

The A&EG feat rules indicate that when pricing an item that grants a feat, while there's a general guideline as a fallback, the primary method should be to figure out how much it would cost to get the effect normally. For example, if an item gave the Great Fortitude feat, that's +2 to specifically fortitude that stacks with any other bonus type. Buying +2 (resistance) to all saves would cost 4000 gp, with +2 (untyped) costing twice as much. One-third of that would be ~2666. And yet the feat guideline would indicate a minimum of ~5000 instead...but then, the guideline is the secondary method for determining price when the primary is insufficient. I bring this up because continuous Heroics items would have similar issues to the A&EG guideline - it's a flat price that doesn't take into account how some feats are better than others. Is it fair that you might overpay for something like Weapon Focus, but underpay for something like Weapon Supremacy?


If this does work, and i'm not 100% sure it does, what are the best choices outside of the obvious improved initiative, save boosters, etc? For my money i think it would be fun for a Chameleon to let you make a different fighter build every day.

Let's ignore all the stuff about how it's probably not legal, probably more expensive than that, and probably kinda unbalanced especially if you're spamming it. Heroics isn't "any feat", it's fighter bonus feats. That means Toughness and "save boosters" aren't actually options you can take. Fighter Bonus Feats isn't...the best list of feats in the world. If you want a guide on which ones are worth taking, there's a dozen "build a good 3.5 fighter" handbooks floating around. One interesting combo that doesn't see much play in pre-epic games (and thus, doesn't see much play) is essentially "immunity to ubercharger":

Dodge/Mobility/Elusive Target: among other benefits, your Dodge target gets no damage bonus from PA against you.

Combat Focus/Combat Dodge/any other [Combat Focus] feat (probably Combat Vigor): Combat Dodge and two other [CF] feats lets you switch your Dodge target as an immediate action. Technically, this only lets you avoid two uberchargers per round at most (your dodge target charges you, and then somebody else does but you immediate-switch Dodge to them), but no-selling at least one ubercharger per round is still pretty great for high-level rocket-tag. Of course, it costs 6 fighter feats...

EDIT: If you want a way of buying multiple feats that's more rules-defensible, that's what the A&EG guidelines help with. They provide pricing info for buying feats in items directly.

[Jervis]

Let's ignore all the stuff about how it's probably not legal, probably more expensive than that, and probably kinda unbalanced especially if you're spamming it. Heroics isn't "any feat", it's fighter bonus feats. That means Toughness and "save boosters" aren't actually options you can take. Fighter Bonus Feats isn't...the best list of feats in the world. If you want a guide on which ones are worth taking, there's a dozen "build a good 3.5 fighter" handbooks floating around. One interesting combo that doesn't see much play in pre-epic games (and thus, doesn't see much play) is essentially "immunity to ubercharger":

Dodge/Mobility/Elusive Target: among other benefits, your Dodge target gets no damage bonus from PA against you.

Combat Focus/Combat Dodge/any other [Combat Focus] feat (probably Combat Vigor): Combat Dodge and two other [CF] feats lets you switch your Dodge target as an immediate action. Technically, this only lets you avoid two uberchargers per round at most (your dodge target charges you, and then somebody else does but you immediate-switch Dodge to them), but no-selling at least one ubercharger per round is still pretty great for high-level rocket-tag. Of course, it costs 6 fighter feats...

EDIT: If you want a way of buying multiple feats that's more rules-defensible, that's what the A&EG guidelines help with. They provide pricing info for buying feats in items directly.

I don't know why i thought toughness was a fighter feat, my brain blanked there. Thanks for the thoughts tho. My thought has always been that spells can overlap with themselves unless the effects just don't work together. Example being resist energy, ruin delver's fortune, or your example of bestow curse. The fact Polymorph was listed as the example kinda muddies things because that obviously can't apply in two instances at once. I was mostly hoping to get some other takes on it or see if another precedent for similar spells existed.

[Jervis]

All custom items are subject to DM discretion. There are certain guidelines, sure, but the guidelines are very clear that the DM can and should compare the power of each item to other similar items and adjust the price accordingly.

Whether or not you can benefit from a different "mode" of the same spell multiple times is unclear in the rules.
- If you can't then this discussion is over.
- If you can, then you can certainly use various resources to give someone a ton of feats, sure, but the utility of that is questionable since there are only so many good fighter feats out there.

Also, note that Mirror Move is an old 3.0 spell that can give you MULTIPLE feats at once, is not limited to fighter feats, and can be Persisted, so it might be more efficient to use that spell if you want a dozen feats all day. Works best with leadership since you do need to see the feat in action first.

What book is Mirror Move from?

[Rebel7284]

What book is Mirror Move from?

Web article. Currently visible here: https://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20000901a

Edit: Looks like I forgot this part:
The DM may allow mirroring of feats from sources other than the Player's Handbook, as long as they are feats with observable physical effects. I thought other books were included automatically.

[Gruftzwerg]

What book is Mirror Move from?

It's from an web article (https://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20000901a).

And as AvatarVecna said, only the last instance of the same spell trumps all other instances as long as it is there. Spells don't stack with themselves unless it is called out as specific exception.

If you want to stack temporary feats, there are other options..
But these are high lvl cheese chains and each causes you to break the game entirely.

1. Pun-Pun (https://1d4chan.fandom.com/wiki/Pun-Pun)(not from me: the first build that can give himself all feats and becomes thus omnipotent)
2. BoBaFeat (my first build that can also stack infinite feats to become omnipotent)
3. Orochimaru (it wasn't intended. But as I finished the required build to adapt him, I realized that he also has the option to get all feats to also become omnipotent).

[Jervis]

thanks to you both. This was mostly theoretical optimization but i was somewhat considering it for a chameleon build with the gimmick that i effectively play a different character every session. I.E. tripper one day, mounted combat another, random optimization of a weapon no one's ever heard of, etc. Even using the Shifting + Sizing weapon enhancement combo to make one weapon any weapon for the day.

[Rebel7284]

As a side note, if you're interested in feat-based shenanigans, this showcase I wrote does nifty things with Heartfire Fanner. With judicious use of Shun the Dark Chaos, it can even give Epic feats at later levels too. :smallamused:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?622924-Rebel-s-Optimization-Showcase-Nood-the-Legend-Maker

[Doctor Despair]

thanks to you both. This was mostly theoretical optimization but i was somewhat considering it for a chameleon build with the gimmick that i effectively play a different character every session. I.E. tripper one day, mounted combat another, random optimization of a weapon no one's ever heard of, etc. Even using the Shifting + Sizing weapon enhancement combo to make one weapon any weapon for the day.

Check out my Horselord build for something approaching that. You can pray for 24 hours to get a new horse with new feats, and therefore you ALSO get those new feats.