OOTS #1248 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Cygnia]

Ah, V...gotta love the basics :smallamused:

[Ivrytwr]

I like the whole process of V examining the situation. The light, the closed eye, the "tap-tap". V seems more effectively analytical and not just showboating.
Belkar's random act of violence is helpful too!
I especially like ... </pause-for-effect> ... the reveal.

Thanks Giant!

[RMS Oceanic]

Sometimes being wordy is useful. :smallsmile:

[Shining Wrath]

Henceforth I shall think of all intervals between strips as being Rich doing an ominous pause.
And good work by both Belkar and V. Also, the stone inhibiting teleportation is an essential part of the dungeon; otherwise a Xykon could just pop into each tunnel and pop back out.
Also, Serini seems to be at least a little nervous. Which she probably should be.

[Gift Jeraff]

Paladins soon?

[Hurkyl]

I'm amused at throwing the nickname 'Sunshine' at Haley Starshine.

[Lord Torath]

"I didn't spot jack!" Classic.

Thanks, Rich!

[tcrudisi]

I read the final line like William Shatner. I was disappointed that it wasn't set up in different chat bubbles.

"I will have you know there is no skill more foundational to the practice of wizardry through the ages than that of the"

"ominous pause."

[Cicciograna]

Nice to see that V, after wondering why they had even one passwall prepared (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0896.html), decided that they would still like a way to cast that spell, even if its usefulness is not stellar. They are a Wizard, after all, "being prepared comes natural" (cit.).

[Gwynfrid]

I read the final line like William Shatner. I was disappointed that it wasn't set up in different chat bubbles.

"I will have you know there is no skill more foundational to the practice of wizardry through the ages than that of the"

"ominous pause."

That would have been too much, I think. That last line was just perfect.

[Fyraltari]

Thag carpet monster look hurt. They waited who-knows-how-long to do their one thing and they just got stabbed for it.

[Coyote0715]

Nice scream by the Trapper(?). Doesn't seem like a typical monster response.

[Schroeswald]

Thag carpet monster look hurt. They waited who-knows-how-long to do their one thing and they just got stabbed for it.

I think they need a hug, if Elan was here I’m sure he’d give them one.

[Peelee]

Also, Serini seems to be at least a little nervous. Which she probably should be.
Definitely. She's gotta be running low on tricks.

Paladins soon?
No, paladins Lein and O-Chul. Soon died.

[Great Dane]

That would have been too much, I think. That last line was just perfect.

Right - that got a straight up belly laugh from me.

[Hiro Quester]

After being trapped under the pyramid, I’m not surprised that V obtained that spell. Fool me once……

[Doug Lampert]

I like the whole process of V examining the situation. The light, the closed eye, the "tap-tap". V seems more effectively analytical and not just showboating.
Belkar's random act of violence is helpful too!
I especially like ... </pause-for-effect> ... the reveal.

Thanks Giant!

That was not random violence, that the terrain is likely to be alive and hostile is a given where they are. He gave his logic, the floor was the only thing that hadn't yet attacked them.

[HUMVEE Driver]

First off, that's not random violence. I don't think it is, at all. Roy knows it too. Start off by looking at the situation. Try to see it from their POV.

Put it all together, and what do you get? A great strip! Go, Belkar! (Elan too) :)

[elros]

I love that Belkar's random violence was actually helpful, and V's long winded response helped advance the plot. The Giant is excellent at keeping the core features of each character in the forefront while making them relevant and interesting. It's a lot harder to do that than it seems!

[Starknight62040]

Awesome Strip!

[dancrilis]

Credit to Belkar - seemingly figuring out the door monster and the floor monster based on the ceiling monsters.
More credit to Belkar - not killing the floor monster.

So far Serini has tried to use non-fatal means against the Order, escalating the situation might be a mistake.

[danielxcutter]

Heh. V's always had some understanding of theatrics though, they just didn't like it. :smallamused:

Also I really hope that's where her hideout is, and not some new and creative deathtrap.

[Psepha]

I'm not sure what it is specifically, but man, this strip really made me think about how much I've missed getting some solid Haley and V time. They've been established as close, but it feels like we haven't had some focused interaction between them in a while, so it's great to see them getting the joint spotlight again in this sequence (with bonus Belkar lol)

[Peelee]

And only now do I see the line in panel 2 such separated real floor from floor monster.

[elros]

Also I really hope that's where her hideout is, and not some new and creative deathtrap.
The floor in strip 1248 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1248.html) is similar to the walls (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1225.html) of (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1226.html) Serini's (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1227.html) hide (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1228.html)out (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1229.html), so I think you are right.

[KorvinStarmast]

Paladins soon? That was my gut feel, given the color of the stone blocks and there being no doors and no windows in Serini's living quarters (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1225.html).

I'm amused at throwing the nickname 'Sunshine' at Haley Starshine. That got a grin out of me.

Nice scream by the Trapper(?). Doesn't seem like a typical monster response. That it didn't attack is unorthodox behavior for that monster, but maybe Serini's influence on them all has, like her influence on Sunny, adjusted their default behaviors.

No, paladins Lein and O-Chul. Soon died. Obligatory groan

So far Serini has tried to use non-fatal means against the Order, escalating the situation might be a mistake. She's playing to her own strengths.

Belkar's intuition was nice to see at work. It's almost as though he's playing as a ranger, which means that the Order is doomed! :smallcool:

[Yxylu]

I'm not sure what it is specifically, but man, this strip really made me think about how much I've missed getting some solid Haley and V time. They've been established as close, but it feels like we haven't had some focused interaction between them in a while, so it's great to see them getting the joint spotlight again in this sequence (with bonus Belkar lol)

It takes us way back - this was one of the original groups when they split the party all the way in comic number 2. 18 years ago.

[MoonCat]

That's very clever placement of the floor monster, acting as both a trap and camouflage of an entrance.

Can't help but feel dreadfully sorry for the poor little floor monster though.

[KorvinStarmast]

Can't help but feel dreadfully sorry for the poor little floor monster though. The Belkster, aka Death's Little Friend, showed admirable restraint in not continuing his usual stabby routine after the initial hit. I also like how the original face is a crooked smile, but the second face is a frown (panels 6 and 7). That's a nice touch. :smallsmile:

[Shining Wrath]

My congratulations to those who spotted the similarity between the floor and Serini's lair. Nice catch.

So now we have Serini nervous, and the party has entered her final hideout. This is where she goes lethal.

[Metastachydium]

My congratulations to those who spotted the similarity between the floor and Serini's lair. Nice catch.

So now we have Serini nervous, and the party has entered her final hideout. This is where she goes lethal.

Well, she wanted to get lethal the moment it became obvious that the Order won't just obediently go down as she planned (khm, "we have glue", khm).

[In4Dimensions]

The scroll of Passwall wasn't totally a surprise (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1238.html)!

[Psyren]

Well, that answers the question about how she can teleport in the dungeon :smallsmile: Excellent to have some theories confirmed. And we now have confirmation that her lair is indeed inside the complex proper.



No, paladins Lein and O-Chul. Soon died.

ba-dum-tish :smalltongue:


After being trapped under the pyramid, I’m not surprised that V obtained that spell. Fool me once……

Especially when you can't teleport. V should definitely keep this around as a go-forward tactic.

I wonder if Passwall will work on the dimensional stone? It's not teleportation after all.


The scroll of Passwall wasn't totally a surprise (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1238.html)!

Brilliant.

[danielxcutter]

Passwall's a Transmutation effect I think, so it probably should. It sounds like the stone is mostly about effectively blocking line-of-effect for teleportation effects and Ethereal Plane cheesing.

[Fyraltari]

Passwall only makes a temporary hole, right? It would probably be wiser to regroup before trying to follow Serini.

[In4Dimensions]

Passwall only makes a temporary hole, right? It would probably be wiser to regroup before trying to follow Serini.
It's an hour per level (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/passwall.htm). Serini might have (well, probably does have) a wand of Dispel Magic though.

Also, technically, Passwall doesn't state that it can make holes in floors.

[Wannes]

No, paladins Lein and O-Chul. Soon died.

Keeping them chained without supervision was dangerous, but I didn't expect it to be so dangerous that they both soon died.

[Rogan]

I'm pretty sure that I guessed Serini had used normal stone for some parts of her dungeon, so she could use it as a secret door with her Wand.

Am I the only one who thinks the floor monster seems to be sad?

[danielxcutter]

Keeping them chained without supervision was dangerous, but I didn't expect it to be so dangerous that they both soon died.

There's only one Soon.

[Peelee]

Passwall's a Transmutation effect I think, so it probably should. It sounds like the stone is mostly about effectively blocking line-of-effect for teleportation effects and Ethereal Plane cheesing.
Seconded. I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work on multidimensional stone.

Keeping them chained without supervision was dangerous, but I didn't expect it to be so dangerous that they both soon died.
No, only one Soon died.

[3SecondCultist]

Excellent, so we'll be seeing a Serini & co. vs Team Rogue Wizard (with Team Paladin and Belkar backing them up) showdown... only to cut away to Elan and Minrah having befriended Sunny.

I can feel the cutaway gag coming! :smallbiggrin:

[Fyraltari]

No, only one Soon died.

That's two Soon, man, way two Soon.

[Metastachydium]

Am I the only one who thinks the floor monster seems to be sad?

It has more of a "badly hurt" face, but I'd bet that doesn't make it very happy.

[Vikenlugaid]

Wow Belkar DID change a lot.

I agree that wall should lead to where the paladins are, this will be interesting... Serini seems nervous so I bet she is running out of tricks, maybe one more... But then what? Just surrender? Or go lethal?

[CountDVB]

They're all showing more genre-savvy, even Belkar, Elan would be tearing up with pride right now.

Also, V's comment on the omnious pause makes me wonder if that was another reason why Elan considered becoming a Wizard

[Personification]

They're all showing more genre-savvy, even Belkar, Elan would be tearing up with pride right now.

Also, V's comment on the omnious pause makes me wonder if that was another reason why Elan considered becoming a Wizard

Belmar has always been genre savvy about these things. One of my favorite early quotes from him is the old "What happened to adventurer paranoia? It's like they've never had the ceiling come to life and try to smother them before." (I may have garbled the wording a bit)

[danielxcutter]

And V has always had a basic understanding of drama, which is why they know when to complain about it. :smalltongue:

[Thermophille]

Laying down my prediction now:

Serini doesn't actually explain her problems to the Order. The Paladins tell the Order when they drop through the ceiling. The Order, realizing how things must look, attempt some sort of resolution with Serini, perhaps letting the whole Godsmoot situation slip at some point.

[LasVegasLawyer]

Silly wizard. You can't dramatically reveal something you outright revealed only 10 panels ago. How short do you think our attention spans are, an-

Hey, Belkar is being funny!

[Shining Wrath]

I'm going to take a wild guess here.
Belkar's last breath is imminent, because who better to kill the violent halfling than a violent halfling? Belkar will hesitate because he kind of likes her, and she'll kill him.

Or, possibly, petrify him (which would meet the definition of "last breath").

[Fyraltari]

I'm going to take a wild guess here.
Belkar's last breath is imminent, because who better to kill the violent halfling than a violent halfling?

Xykon. Redcloak. The Snarl.

[DaOldeWolf]

Cool, we got a chase to conntinue. I kinda wonder where she is going. Could she be returning to base where her stuff and the paladins are?

[Wintermoot]

I'm going to take a wild guess here.
Belkar's last breath is imminent, because who better to kill the violent halfling than a violent halfling? Belkar will hesitate because he kind of likes her, and she'll kill him.

Or, possibly, petrify him (which would meet the definition of "last breath").

Petrified, then animated. Boom. Breathless Belkar of Stony Doom!

[Schroeswald]

Petrified, then animated. Boom. Breathless Belkar of Stony Doom!

And then of course he moves to the Snarl world and is never allowed to retire ever.

[Psyren]

I'm really enjoying Belkar's brand of dungeon-genre-savvy. I never thought several hundred strips ago that I'd be sad to see him go, but I fully expect his end to be tragic now.

[Xel]

While the floor monster is interesting from a story perspective, it feels like a poor design for a trap to have put it in a place that reveals the normal stone. Even if the targets didn’t notice it, it’s going to reveal that normal stone when it attacks. I’d think keeping the camouflage intact by putting the floor monster further up the passage would have been prudent.

[RatElemental]

That's very clever placement of the floor monster, acting as both a trap and camouflage of an entrance.

Can't help but feel dreadfully sorry for the poor little floor monster though.

I dunno, I can't help but question the logic of having a monster there at all. The lurker above slowed them down, yeah, but unless that trapper managed to kill all three of them all it would manage to do would be to mildly inconvenience one of them before they noticed the different stone anyway.

[Sloanzilla]

Why didn't the floor monster fight back after being stabbed? Just caught off guard?

[Baelzar]

Finally, the INT score appears!

[Doug Lampert]

Silly wizard. You can't dramatically reveal something you outright revealed only 10 panels ago. How short do you think our attention spans are, an-

Hey, Belkar is being funny!

Squirrel!

I wonder how this will work in the book. It was 10 strips, not 10 panels, so there is a good chance readers will have forgotten. Usually Rich's timing is aimed more at book readers than online readers.

[TheNecrocomicon]

As enthused as I am by the prospect of the Order finally reuniting with the paladins, I fully expect Serini to have a full suite of nigh-infallible countermeasures ready to go as long as the plot demands, especially now as she seems to have returned to her long-maintained and well-stocked personal hideout to regroup and rearm.

Either that, or she's going to have dosed the paladins with her epic level amnesia potion by the time the Order gets through, just so that this has the most frustrating way forward possible for all involved.

[SkepticalSquid]

I'm not sure what it is specifically, but man, this strip really made me think about how much I've missed getting some solid Haley and V time. They've been established as close, but it feels like we haven't had some focused interaction between them in a while, so it's great to see them getting the joint spotlight again in this sequence (with bonus Belkar lol)

Their friendship is one of my favorites too. I hope we get more of it on-panel!

[Kantaki]

Belkar's logic is absolutely flawless.:smallamused:


Squirrel!

I wonder how this will work in the book. It was 10 strips, not 10 panels, so there is a good chance readers will have forgotten. Usually Rich's timing is aimed more at book readers than online readers.

Well, I definitely did (dramatic pause) forget.:smallbiggrin:

[littlebum2002]

Too bad it's a scroll of passwall, not a scroll of passfloor.

[Onyavar]

It takes us way back - this was one of the original groups when they split the party all the way in comic number 2. 18 years ago.

I just hope the party doesn't stay split.

Hm, we have a stoned Durkon (no cure for him currently, unless Sunny's ray was just temporary or can be lifted), an unconscious Roy and a very eloquent Elan. If Durkon can't be rescued right now, I am seeing Elan persuading Sunny that he and Roy are the good guys, and they go and find Serini right in time as she has overwhelmed V, Haley and Belkar.

[Fyraltari]

Too bad it's a scroll of passwall, not a scroll of passfloor.

It's okay, it's also a ceiling, so it averages out to a wall.

[Kantaki]

Too bad it's a scroll of passwall, not a scroll of passfloor.

A floor is just a wall that's lying down a little while. :smalltongue::smallbiggrin:

Edit:


It's okay, it's also a ceiling, sonit averages out to a wall.

Also this. :smallamused:

[Quizatzhaderac]

"I didn't spot jack!" Classic.I vote we call the floor monster "Jack".

[Psyren]

I dunno, I can't help but question the logic of having a monster there at all. The lurker above slowed them down, yeah, but unless that trapper managed to kill all three of them all it would manage to do would be to mildly inconvenience one of them before they noticed the different stone anyway.

I mean, what else would she cover it with? She can't use the dimensional stone there or she locks herself out. An illusion would just be a neon sign saying something interesting is underneath. Dirt maybe? Paint?


Why didn't the floor monster fight back after being stabbed? Just caught off guard?

Her sneakier monsters are pretty weak overall. Belkar having stabbed it with a +5 Impact Dagger probably left it rethinking its commitment to its job.

[Fyraltari]

I vote we call the floor monster "Jack".

But Belkar was the one who hit the road.

[faustin]

Is it legit to use an assumption to skip a spot or ability check?

[KorvinStarmast]

Either that, or she's going to have dosed the paladins with her epic level amnesia potion by the time the Order gets through, just so that this has the most frustrating way forward possible for all involved. That would be consistent with the trends of this book so far.

I vote we call the floor monster "Jack". You have my vote of Yes. :smallsmile:

Her sneakier monsters are pretty weak overall. Belkar having stabbed it with a +5 Impact Dagger probably left it rethinking its commitment to its job. Likely.

[Corian]

But Belkar was the one who hit the road.

First: slow clap. That was brilliant.

Second: He "hit the road: Jack". I never realized it was an apposition.

[Psyren]

Is it legit to use an assumption to skip a spot or ability check?

If you're asking "can you attack an object/square just in case it might secretly be a creature" - yes, you can do that without needing to make a check.

[Dewin Dwl]

But Belkar was the one who hit the road.

No problem: Belkar just hit Jack, but Jack is clearly already on the floor/road, so must have hit it earlier.

[Edward15]

First up, when did Belkar figure out that thing blocking the door the Order went through was a monster?

Second, what was that creature that was on the floor? Another Mimic?

[RickDaily12]

If that stone on the other side leads to Serini's secret hideout...

...why do I have this terrible sense of impending dread that this encounter is only going to end with Serini having all of her memories wiped out? :smallsigh:

[Coyote0715]

First up, when did Belkar figure out that thing blocking the door the Order went through was a monster?

Second, what was that creature that was on the floor? Another Mimic?

It's probably a Trapper. And apparently, his name is Jack.

[Gnome Alone]

Always happy for a cool moment from Vaarsuvius, my favorite physiologically and morally ambiguous character. Actually I think V might be my favorite character period. I relate to a lot of their issues, I guess. Also nice to see an annoyed reminder that Elan, bards and the genre savvy don't have a monopoly on the shape of stories and showmanship. Showpersonship.

[Edward15]

I just hope the party doesn't stay split.

Hm, we have a stoned Durkon (no cure for him currently, unless Sunny's ray was just temporary or can be lifted), an unconscious Roy and a very eloquent Elan. If Durkon can't be rescued right now, I am seeing Elan persuading Sunny that he and Roy are the good guys, and they go and find Serini right in time as she has overwhelmed V, Haley and Belkar.

You forgot about Minrah. She won't like that.

[Hurkyl]

So Serini is nervous about putting her plans into action. Makes sense really; she was more of a follower and/or wander, was she not? But now she has to play the responsible party leader, and it's not like she would have much chance to actually execute these plans in earnest.

I was kind of thinking this from the wording in #1189 -- the idea that she knew intellectually that a confrontation was coming and was resigning herself to actually having to go through with it -- but I think the first panel of #1248 makes it more clear.

I also think this is strengthening my interpretation of #1229 that Serini's frustration is more directed at the other Scribblers than it is at the remnants of Soon's legacy, and that the failures of their defenses have forced a responsibility upon her that she was hoping to avoid.

[Edward15]

I also think this is strengthening my interpretation of #1229 that Serini's frustration is more directed at the other Scribblers than it is at the remnants of Soon's legacy, and that the failures of their defenses have forced a responsibility upon her that she was hoping to avoid.

Hey, SHE was the one who convinced them to go their separate ways.

[gatemansgc]

well even though belkar didn't spot the monster he still used logic to find it! and then stabbed it of course!

[Askthepizzaguy]

Noting how Belkar's character is getting better and better at "playing the game". Not just fighting, but advancing through the obstacles and clearing them using his wits.

He may not be super intelligent, or morally insightful, or particularly skilled at tracking, but he's gotten worldly enough and experienced enough that he does possess a certain type of wisdom: genre savvy.

He's possessed far more of that type of wisdom than Roy for a couple of books now.

He actually rounds out the team and is helpful, and has saved their necks more than once. The world gets saved, its partly because of Belkar, and literally because of Belkar helping turn the tide in several instances.

Not to steal the thunder of any other character. No way in heck does Belkar even embark on this adventure for the cause. He needed all of them.

It's just nice to see that they need him too, and he delivers.

[RatedArgh]

It takes us way back - this was one of the original groups when they split the party all the way in comic number 2. 18 years ago.

Dear Pantheon! Have I been reading this strip for 18 years???

[Dire Moose]

With all these disguised wall/ceiling/floor monsters, I can’t help but recall the concept of the perfectly ordinary-looking room where literally everything in it is a well-disguised monster waiting to kill you.

I wonder if that still lies ahead.

[bravelove]

honestly this level of competency from them is starting to scare me

[Edward15]

honestly this level of competency from them is starting to scare me
Well, what do you expect? It's the final arc. Obviously they'd start pulling the act together right.

[Fitzclowningham]

It's probably a Trapper. And apparently, his name is Jack.

Jack Trapper has 3 for company

[elecampane]

Too bad it's a scroll of passwall, not a scroll of passfloor.
Well, the word "wall" has a meaning "a barrier, an impediment to a free movement".
Also, the spell "wall of stone" can specifically create (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfStone.htm) even bridges:
"Unlike a wall of iron, you can create a wall of stone in almost any shape you desire. The wall created need not be vertical, nor rest upon any firm foundation; however, it must merge with and be solidly supported by existing stone. It can be used to bridge a chasm, for instance, or as a ramp"
(yeah, I know you made a joke, I just wanted to get real for a second)


I just hope the party doesn't stay split.

Hm, we have a stoned Durkon (no cure for him currently, unless Sunny's ray was just temporary or can be lifted), an unconscious Roy and a very eloquent Elan. If Durkon can't be rescued right now, I am seeing Elan persuading Sunny that he and Roy are the good guys, and they go and find Serini right in time as she has overwhelmed V, Haley and Belkar.

Apart from Minrah people already mentioned above, Elan also has a Song of Freedom (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm#songofFreedom) ability, and Durkon even already was freed from petrification with that ability before (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1178.html)

[Psyren]

Dear Pantheon! Have I been reading this strip for 18 years???

3.5 came out in 2001/2002, a little while before the first strip dropped and the OotS converted.


I just hope the party doesn't stay split.

Hm, we have a stoned Durkon (no cure for him currently, unless Sunny's ray was just temporary or can be lifted), an unconscious Roy and a very eloquent Elan. If Durkon can't be rescued right now, I am seeing Elan persuading Sunny that he and Roy are the good guys, and they go and find Serini right in time as she has overwhelmed V, Haley and Belkar.

It's permanent / instantaneous, but Elan can (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0890.html) break it. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1178.html)

[Yxylu]

3.5 came out in 2001/2002, a little while before the first strip dropped and the OotS converted.

Specifically, comic number 2 came out on October 4th, 2003. It’s been a little over 18 years.

[PattThe]

I love me some end-game passwall!!

[Emanick]

3.5 came out in 2001/2002, a little while before the first strip dropped and the OotS converted.

June/July 2003, actually. (https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Editions_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons)

[Carl]

If that stone on the other side leads to Serini's secret hideout...

...why do I have this terrible sense of impending dread that this encounter is only going to end with Serini having all of her memories wiped out? :smallsigh:

It's only supposed to wipe memories of their time in the north, (and replace them with fake ones), not completely wipe all knowledge and memory from them.

[Riftwolf]

It's only supposed to wipe memories of their time in the north, (and replace them with fake ones), not completely wipe all knowledge and memory from them.

But she has made a cauldron of it, so who knows what improper dosage could do to her.

Also, is there anything more old school DM {scrubbed}move than Killer Floor?

[Fyraltari]

But she has made a cauldron of it, so who knows what improper dosage could do to her.

Also, is there anything more old school DM {scrub the post, scrub the quote}move than Killer Floor?

Killer Ceiling?

[Peelee]

But she has made a cauldron of it, so who knows what improper dosage could do to her.

Probably nothing (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html).:smalltongue:

[KorvinStarmast]

Also, is there anything more old school DM {scrubbed}move than Killer Floor? The list of such moves is long and distinguished. :smallwink:

[Shining Wrath]

The most old school DM killer move is probably a pit trap where the top closes, something heavy slides onto the lid, and then the pit fills with water. I'm pretty sure Gygax used that one.

[Peelee]

The most old school DM killer move is probably a pit trap where the top closes, something heavy slides onto the lid, and then the pit fills with water. I'm pretty sure Gygax used that one.

No spikes on the ceiling?

[Metastachydium]

The most old school DM killer move is probably a pit trap where the top closes, something heavy slides onto the lid, and then the pit fills with water. I'm pretty sure Gygax used that one.

Ah, the old days when the fun stuff (the pit filling with acid and acidborn sharks) wasn't available yet!

[danielxcutter]

Personally I’ve never seen the appeal of rogue-likes and old-school dungeon crawlers like that where paranoia was a prereq and you got screwed over by the most arbitrary and unfair things the dungeon designer could think of.

[Schroeswald]

No spikes on the ceiling?

I think it needs spikes on the floor too

[danielxcutter]

Spikes on the ceiling, spikes on the floor, spikes on the walls, spikes inside your armor, pack, and the slice of pie your mom sent you, I think?

[Metastachydium]

Spikes on the ceiling, spikes on the floor, spikes on the walls, spikes inside your armor, pack, and the slice of pie your mom sent you, I think?

Yes, and that's before you come to realise that ♪all in all you're just a-nother spike in the wall!♫

[Psyren]

Personally I’ve never seen the appeal of rogue-likes and old-school dungeon crawlers like that where paranoia was a prereq and you got screwed over by the most arbitrary and unfair things the dungeon designer could think of.

It fell especially out of favor when rolling up new characters became a more involved process, and you weren't just throwing characters whose stats meant they had no business adventuring into a meat grinder.

[BriarHobbit]

I dunno, I can't help but question the logic of having a monster there at all. The lurker above slowed them down, yeah, but unless that trapper managed to kill all three of them all it would manage to do would be to mildly inconvenience one of them before they noticed the different stone anyway.

In classic D&D, trappers were deadly if you didn't spot them. They'd catch some unsuspecting party members and smother them with dazzling speed. Even if the party sees it and kills it, its mass hides the secret door. If Belkar had not spotted the creature, it might have got them all. This creature is much larger than the lurker above that we saw. I enjoyed this comic quite a bit.

[Hurkyl]

Personally I’ve never seen the appeal of rogue-likes and old-school dungeon crawlers like that where paranoia was a prereq and you got screwed over by the most arbitrary and unfair things the dungeon designer could think of.
It's skill/puzzle based challenge. For the rogue-likes, at least. The puzzle is to learn how to best manage the hostility of the environment so that you still get resources as necessary to proceed while minimizing the risk of catastrophe, and how to get the most use out of what resources you do come across. And then there is joy in the execution, seeing your overall strategy work successfully, seeing specific tactics work out, and being able to read situations and the environment and adapt to new things as you come across them.

It's a game that expects you to 'git gud' made for people who enjoy 'gitting gud'. If that's not your cup of tea -- or even if it is but you were going into the game expecting a completely different sort of experience -- then I can see why one would not find it appealing.

Of course, not all such games are well-written, and due to the increased penalty for failure, it's a far more painful experience when the game has problems on the unfair side (and I mean an actually unfair way, not in the "whoops I wasn't managing that risk" way). E.g. on the opposite side if this, RPG combat is usually pretty bad these days... but it's easier to overlook that issue because it's so gosh-darned easy that it doesn't get in the way if you're enjoying the plotline and visuals. Until it does at which point people complain about how awful the game is.

[danielxcutter]

I got burned on a rogue-like. Asked the creator on their Discord server and they said flat-out that it's not meant to be beaten by newcomers. I basically dropped it after that.

[Vikenlugaid]

Most important, who said V wasn't effective in this persecution? O:)

[Werbaer]

If Belkar had not spotted the creature, it might have got them all.
If Belkar had not attacked it, it would have done nothing. Just like Mimi didn't attack. His job is to conceal something, not to fight the party.

[Duncun]

In classic D&D, trappers were deadly if you didn't spot them. They'd catch some unsuspecting party members and smother them with dazzling speed. Even if the party sees it and kills it, its mass hides the secret door. If Belkar had not spotted the creature, it might have got them all. This creature is much larger than the lurker above that we saw. I enjoyed this comic quite a bit.

Actually, Belkar did not spot the creature. He made the assumption that there would be a floor based creature and stabbed the floor to test his assumption and just happened to be right.

[Yanisa]

Spikes on the ceiling, spikes on the floor, spikes on the walls, spikes inside your armor, pack, and the slice of pie your mom sent you, I think?

Reminds me off:


"Couldn't there have been lava on top of the spikes, with fire-sharks swimming in it? Couldn't there be more spikes coming from the sides, ready to close in and squash me while stabbing at the same time? How 'bout some laser cannons and upside-down volcanoes?"

[bunsen_h]

And good work by both Belkar and V. Also, the stone inhibiting teleportation is an essential part of the dungeon; otherwise a Xykon could just pop into each tunnel and pop back out.

Teleport (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleport.htm) requires that you know your destination. Even Greater Teleport (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportGreater.htm) requires that you have at least a "reliable" description of the destination.


No, paladins Lein and O-Chul. Soon died.

[*snort*]


More credit to Belkar - not killing the floor monster.

I noticed that too.


I wonder if Passwall will work on the dimensional stone? It's not teleportation after all.

I think that the idea is that Serini ran to a location that had non-dimensional stone between areas, so she could teleport through that specific barrier. Passwall should allow the good guys to get through that same barrier. (EDIT: That is, she just went down a level.)

Do we know for sure if she's using a Teleport wand, vs. Dimension Door or some other effect? V uses the word "teleport" but also says that the spell has "middling range". Teleport has a range of 100 miles per caster level, while DimDoor gives 400 ft. + 40 ft./level.


With all these disguised wall/ceiling/floor monsters, I can’t help but recall the concept of the perfectly ordinary-looking room where literally everything in it is a well-disguised monster waiting to kill you.

Ah, the Castle (https://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20070725)!


Ah, the old days when the fun stuff (the pit filling with acid and acidborn sharks) wasn't available yet!

Mutant, acid-resistant flying piranhas! (https://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20090617)

[Frozenstep]

I got burned on a rogue-like. Asked the creator on their Discord server and they said flat-out that it's not meant to be beaten by newcomers. I basically dropped it after that.

Curious, how do you feel about difficult game bosses were killing them on your first try is incredibly rare?

[KorvinStarmast]

Personally I’ve never seen the appeal of rogue-likes and old-school dungeon crawlers like that where paranoia was a prereq and you got screwed over by the most arbitrary and unfair things the dungeon designer could think of. We had a lot of fun with them for a lot of years. The environment was a hazard, the world was dangerous, and death lurked around every corner. Only the brave, the bold, and the foolish were adventurers. Glorious fun indeed. We used our wits and imagination to try and bypass hazards. (And 11 foot poles ...)

Yes, and that's before you come to realise that ♪all in all you're just a-nother spike in the wall!♫ That too.

It's skill/puzzle based challenge. For the rogue-likes, at least. The puzzle is to learn how to best manage the hostility of the environment so that you still get resources as necessary to proceed while minimizing the risk of catastrophe, and how to get the most use out of what resources you do come across. And then there is joy in the execution, seeing your overall strategy work successfully, seeing specific tactics work out, and being able to read situations and the environment and adapt to new things as you come across them. yes, and the brainstorming by a group of focused, immersed players was part of the fun. "What if we pour some oil on the floor and see which way is down hill?" ...

It's a game that expects you to 'git gud' made for people who enjoy 'gitting gud'. If that's not your cup of tea -- or even if it is but you were going into the game expecting a completely different sort of experience -- then I can see why one would not find it appealing. Player skill is a thing in most games. Heck, GiTP optimization discussions are all about player skill, or at least player skill at 'building' ...

Of course, not all such games are well-written Understatement of the week. :smallsmile:

I got burned on a rogue-like. Asked the creator on their Discord server and they said flat-out that it's not meant to be beaten by newcomers. I basically dropped it after that. First time I ran into the Butcher in Diablo, on level 2, he killed my warrior. It took me some trial and error to find ways to beat him. That's a part of the fun of rogue-likes.

Actually, Belkar did not spot the creature. He made the assumption that there would be a floor based creature and stabbed the floor to test his assumption and just happened to be right. Hooray for the scientific method! :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

I think that the idea is that Serini ran to a location that had non-dimensional stone between areas, so she could teleport through that specific barrier. Passwall should allow the good guys to get through that same barrier. (EDIT: That is, she just went down a level.)

I'm aware of that :smallsmile: I was musing whether that stone stops the spell more generally, not for the specific use case of chasing down Serini. Passwall works by physically altering the material rather than any kind of planar or phasic attempt to bypass it.


Do we know for sure if she's using a Teleport wand, vs. Dimension Door or some other effect? V uses the word "teleport" but also says that the spell has "middling range". Teleport has a range of 100 miles per caster level, while DimDoor gives 400 ft. + 40 ft./level.

It's definitely Dimension Door, Teleport is too high to be put on a wand. (It could also potentially put her off target by a factor of miles, whereas dimension door is much more precise.)

[Wintermoot]

I'm aware of that :smallsmile: I was musing whether that stone stops the spell more generally, not for the specific use case of chasing down Serini. Passwall works by physically altering the material rather than any kind of planar or phasic attempt to bypass it.



Passwall certainly works on multidimensional stone. it's just that no self respecting sorcerer like Xykon would possibly waste a precious spell known slot on such a suboptimal spell.

I assume V's came from a random grab-bag booster pack. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html)

[TheNecrocomicon]

Curious, how do you feel about difficult game bosses were killing them on your first try is incredibly rare?

I'm fairly sure that there's a substantial difference between bosses and other difficult adversaries as specific or level-related obstacles for the player to overcome and get past, versus entire game environments that are designed to kill your character(s) before you even realize that you did something wrong (or missed doing something right when you should have).

The former is a challenge; the latter strikes me as just sadomasochistic.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Passwall certainly works on multidimensional stone. it's just that no self respecting sorcerer like Xykon would possibly waste a precious spell known slot on such a suboptimal spell.

I assume V's came from a random grab-bag booster pack. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html)

The previous book established, or at least provided ample evidence, that Vaarsuvius passes time in transit scribing scrolls of (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0950.html) lower-level utility spells (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1020.html), so there's that.

[Frozenstep]

I'm fairly sure that there's a substantial difference between bosses and other difficult adversaries as specific or level-related obstacles for the player to overcome and get past, versus entire game environments that are designed to kill your character(s) before you even realize that you did something wrong (or missed doing something right when you should have).

The former is a challenge; the latter strikes me as just sadomasochistic.

I was asking because I was scouting out the reason they felt burned, as to better be able to explain the appeal of a rogue-likes. Few of the rogue-likes I play do anything similar to what you've stated, so I was wondering if they just got burned by a particularly cruel one, or maybe if they inherently didn't like challenges that are made with the idea that the player won't clear them on first try, or perhaps it was simply the feeling of losing all the progress made that stings too much for them.

[TheNecrocomicon]

I was asking because I was scouting out the reason they felt burned, as to better be able to explain the appeal of a rogue-likes. Few of the rogue-likes I play do anything similar to what you've stated, so I was wondering if they just got burned by a particularly cruel one, or maybe if they inherently didn't like challenges that are made with the idea that the player won't clear them on first try, or perhaps it was simply the feeling of losing all the progress made that stings too much for them.

I mean, an entire genre in which player characters are as a rule wiped from saves completely when they die, and which is also characteristically designed in a whole lot of places so that players will get themselves killed and have to start over from scratch repeatedly at one stage after another, does strike me as particularly cruel and not enjoyable in general. That seems to be what they're getting at.

Also, I objected to the apparent false equivalence being drawn between someone not liking games which are an ordeal in general, versus bosses which are specific obstacles designed to stand out from the rest of a game by their difficulty (and where you can usually save beforehand to try a different approach when you die rather than lose all your progress entirely).

[DavidSh]

I'm fairly sure that there's a substantial difference between bosses and other difficult adversaries as specific or level-related obstacles for the player to overcome and get past, versus entire game environments that are designed to kill your character(s) before you even realize that you did something wrong (or missed doing something right when you should have).

The former is a challenge; the latter strikes me as just sadomasochistic.

At least at one point there was a whole genre of video games where the idea was to memorize the non-intuitive sequence of steps required to make it through each level, dodging enemies that are about to attack, jumping over hidden traps, and so forth.

[TuringTest]

At least at one point there was a whole genre of video games where the idea was to memorize the non-intuitive sequence of steps required to make it through each level, dodging enemies that are about to attack, jumping over hidden traps, and so forth.

That's true, but they had a crucial difference with roguelikes: an immediate feedback loop, where you knew exactly what killed you (and with several lives, you could immediately try it again and get several attempts at learning how to beat it).

I enjoyed that genre, but I can't stand roguelikes either, where you need to guess what's going on and memorize every single step you took in all previous games so as to discern what each game element means.

[Shining Wrath]

If Belkar had not attacked it, it would have done nothing. Just like Mimi didn't attack. His job is to conceal something, not to fight the party.

I think it would have been foolish indeed to step on the Trapper. The stone could have been hidden by illusion, or even paint. Hiding it beneath a monster implies intent for there to be monstrous things done.

EDIT:

Also, the OotS is a rogue-like game; in the event of a TPK it would be game over, not just for them, but for their world.

[KorvinStarmast]

It's definitely Dimension Door That was my guess. We've also seen Nale use DD, and his DD goes "pop" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0908.html) just like Serini's goes "pop" here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1229.html).

I assume V's came from a random grab-bag booster pack. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html) Seems plausible.

The former is a challenge; the latter strikes me as just sadomasochistic. And yet Tomb of Horrors was ranked as the third best D&D adventure module ever. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomb_of_Horrors)
... or maybe if they inherently didn't like challenges that are made with the idea that the player won't clear them on first try, or perhaps it was simply the feeling of losing all the progress made that stings too much for them. That's not an uncommon reaction to some rogue likes. Save points soften the blow.

Also, I objected to the apparent false equivalence being drawn between someone not liking games which are an ordeal in general, versus bosses which are specific obstacles designed to stand out from the rest of a game by their difficulty (and where you can usually save beforehand to try a different approach when you die rather than lose all your progress entirely).
Yeah, those two seem to me to be an apple and an orange.

At least at one point there was a whole genre of video games where the idea was to memorize the non-intuitive sequence of steps required to make it through each level, dodging enemies that are about to attack, jumping over hidden traps, and so forth. And you paid a quarter for each time you played the game, yes? :smallwink:

[Frozenstep]

I mean, an entire genre in which player characters are as a rule wiped from saves completely when they die, and which is also characteristically designed in a whole lot of places so that players will get themselves killed and have to start over from scratch repeatedly at one stage after another, does strike me as particularly cruel and not enjoyable in general. That seems to be what they're getting at.

Also, I objected to the apparent false equivalence being drawn between someone not liking games which are an ordeal in general, versus bosses which are specific obstacles designed to stand out from the rest of a game by their difficulty (and where you can usually save beforehand to try a different approach when you die rather than lose all your progress entirely).

I wasn't drawing an equivalence, just trying to see if it was really the fact that they couldn't beat it the first try the real issue they were getting at. I didn't want to start explaining why I find roguelikes appealing with only a simplified understanding of why they don't find it appealing.


That's true, but they had a crucial difference with roguelikes: an immediate feedback loop, where you knew exactly what killed you (and with several lives, you could immediately try it again and get several attempts at learning how to beat it).

I enjoyed that genre, but I can't stand roguelikes either, where you need to guess what's going on and memorize every single step you took in all previous games so as to discern what each game element means.

I wonder if I'm just playing completely different rogue-likes from everyone else here. I've played and enjoyed slay the spire, dead cells, hades, FTL, into the breach, along with others. I've not experienced the level of sadism you guys are dealing with. When you die in these games, it's usually pretty clear what happened. You do need to remember things you encounter, but only so much in what they do, just like you would come to recognize and work around the movesets of enemies/bosses in any action game. The nature of plenty of those rogue-likes is randomized levels/enemy placements, so remembering anything else is pointless.

[Fyraltari]

Also, the OotS is a rogue-like game; in the event of a TPK it would be game over, not just for them, but for their world.


Ceci n'est pas une partie de Donjons et Dragons.
1234567890

[Hurkyl]

I wonder if I'm just playing completely different rogue-likes from everyone else here. I've played and enjoyed slay the spire, dead cells, hades, FTL, into the breach, along with others. I've not experienced the level of sadism you guys are dealing with. When you die in these games, it's usually pretty clear what happened. You do need to remember things you encounter, but only so much in what they do, just like you would come to recognize and work around the movesets of enemies/bosses in any action game. The nature of plenty of those rogue-likes is randomized levels/enemy placements, so remembering anything else is pointless.
I wonder if they're describing identification minigames. I remember a big element of Nethack wasn't just that you had to identify your items (or suffer the risk of using unidentified ones) -- but in discovering, through observation, experimentation, and planning, how one might be able to safely identify items.

[Peelee]

Also, the OotS is a rogue-like game; in the event of a TPK it would be game over, not just for them, but for their world.


Ceci n'est pas une partie de Donjons et Dragons.

That follows, then. It is not a game of Dungeons and Dragons, it is instead a rogue-like game.:smallamused:

[KorvinStarmast]

That follows, then. It is not a game of Dungeons and Dragons, it is instead a rogue-like game.:smallamused: :haley: My name is Haley Starshine and I approve of this message.

[Crusher]

And yet Tomb of Horrors was ranked as the third best D&D adventure module ever. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomb_of_Horrors)
Those first 4 "S-dungeons" were pretty spectacular. All 4 made the top 30, I think.

[Crusher]

I got burned on a rogue-like. Asked the creator on their Discord server and they said flat-out that it's not meant to be beaten by newcomers. I basically dropped it after that.

Hah. Do you remember which one it was?

I spent a very large amount of time playing Rogue-likes in my youth, and probably as a result mostly only play "Hardcore" versions of games. Many of the older ones are quite difficult to beat even by the most experienced players. Really, they're more like puzzles or perhaps running optimization exercises as much as they are games. Sure, you're the brave hero and there are orcs ahead which in theory you should probably go slay. But you need to know that since you're on level 22 its now possible, albeit unlikely, that adult dragons can spawn. And so in approaching the orcs, you need to not just feel like you can take the orcs (bearing in mind there might be a lot more of them around a corner you can't see), but also that you have an escape route if something nasty has spawned around the corner and perhaps a back-up escape route in case the noise of the fighting wakes up something that'd been sleeping and it sneaks up behind you as you try to flee. Paranoid caution and opportunistic play are the only way to survive.

A fun way to jump into those and really get a different perspective is a *really* old one. I think it was a version of an Angband variant, "The Halls of Mandos" which is basically the Middle Earth afterlife. The trick is that you're a naked level 1 character who starts on level 99 of a dungeon and need to climb all the way out without access to shops or anything. You die a LOT and often very fast, but you can also stumble over artifacts of incredible power just sitting on the floor because its level 99. Really, really different perspective.

[Ruck]

How is OOTS a roguelike? Aren't roguelike games defined by their element of randomly generated challenges? OOTS is neither a game nor randomly generated.

[mjasghar]

Is it legit to use an assumption to skip a spot or ability check?

Many adventures have logic puzzles or similar which the players (not the characters) are supposed to solve.

[Tecatin]

Not gonna lie I appreciate that even without Elan around it seems his love of tropes is starting to help the other party members - Everyone's seemingly taken a level in Genre Savvy!

[danielxcutter]

Well in that game technically the character didn’t die but the penalties stacked up so much and the RNG was so bad that eventually the character became completely unplayable before reaching the final boss. Plus at least a few of the countermeasures were bugged.

[bunsen_h]

It's definitely Dimension Door, Teleport is too high to be put on a wand.

Is that an absolute? Back In The Day, spells from a wand were cast at 6th level by default (staves' spells at 8th level), but there were exceptions. Higher-level spells were sometimes featured in wands and staves. Per the DMG, the default level for a scroll spell to be cast at was the minimum for the spell, on the basis that that was easiest for the person who created the scroll, but it noted that it was possible for scroll spells to be scribed at a higher casting level.

[Doug Lampert]

Is that an absolute? Back In The Day, spells from a wand were cast at 6th level by default (staves' spells at 8th level), but there were exceptions. Higher-level spells were sometimes featured in wands and staves. Per the DMG, the default level for a scroll spell to be cast at was the minimum for the spell, on the basis that that was easiest for the person who created the scroll, but it noted that it was possible for scroll spells to be scribed at a higher casting level.

A wand can have any caster level adequate to cast the spell, but the SPELL LEVEL must be level 4 or lower.



Craft Wand [Item Creation]
Prerequisite
Caster level 5th.

Benefit
You can create a wand of any 4th-level or lower spell that you know. Crafting a wand takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. The base price of a wand is its caster level × the spell level × 750 gp. To craft a wand, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half of this base price. A newly created wand has 50 charges.

Any wand that stores a spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the cost derived from the base price, you must expend fifty copies of the material component or pay fifty times the XP cost.




A wand is a thin baton that contains a single spell of 4th level or lower. Each wand has 50 charges when created, and each charge expended allows the user to use the wand’s spell one time. A wand that runs out of charges is just a stick.

[Psyren]

What Doug said, and to put the bow on it:


Teleport

Conjuration (Teleportation)
Level: Sor/Wiz 5, Travel 5
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal and touch
Target: You and touched objects or other touched willing creatures
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None and Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance: No and Yes (object)
...

It's just out of range of wands in 3.5.

[danielxcutter]

Wands are for spells you want to spam a lot anyways. Teleport usually isn’t one of those.

[Seward]

I just hope the party doesn't stay split.

Hm, we have a stoned Durkon (no cure for him currently, unless Sunny's ray was just temporary or can be lifted), an unconscious Roy and a very eloquent Elan.

Elan can fix Durkon and Roy. Durkon takes Song of Freedom and 10 minutes (same as casting Break enchantment). Roy just needs ntlz poison from Elan's spell slots+a few taps from the CMW wand Haley gave elan to undo any damage (sleep poison, so Roy should revive)

[MADCrab]

Noting how Belkar's character is getting better and better at "playing the game". Not just fighting, but advancing through the obstacles and clearing them using his wits.

He may not be super intelligent, or morally insightful, or particularly skilled at tracking, but he's gotten worldly enough and experienced enough that he does possess a certain type of wisdom: genre savvy.

He's possessed far more of that type of wisdom than Roy for a couple of books now.

He actually rounds out the team and is helpful, and has saved their necks more than once. The world gets saved, its partly because of Belkar, and literally because of Belkar helping turn the tide in several instances.

Not to steal the thunder of any other character. No way in heck does Belkar even embark on this adventure for the cause. He needed all of them.

It's just nice to see that they need him too, and he delivers.

I see this a little different. He is indeed getting better at "playing the game." But as maybe-soon said in his hallucinations - playing the game means he can still cheat.

[RatElemental]

I wonder if I'm just playing completely different rogue-likes from everyone else here. I've played and enjoyed slay the spire, dead cells, hades, FTL, into the breach, along with others. I've not experienced the level of sadism you guys are dealing with. When you die in these games, it's usually pretty clear what happened. You do need to remember things you encounter, but only so much in what they do, just like you would come to recognize and work around the movesets of enemies/bosses in any action game. The nature of plenty of those rogue-likes is randomized levels/enemy placements, so remembering anything else is pointless.

I absolutely LOVED FTL, and Into the Breach, and I'd add Haque, Cogmind, Heat Signature, Tangledeep, Streets of Rogue, Dungeons of Dredmore, Crypt of the Necrodancer and a few others to the list as well. For a slightly different take on it, UnReal World, Project Zomboid and Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead are good too.

But people are probably talking more about the likes of NetHack, Angbad and Rogue, or games that draw heavily on them.

[Blatt]

I like the way Serini is running towards the dead end to make it look like she's gating through - when really she's going straight down.

[danielxcutter]

I like the way Serini is running towards the dead end to make it look like she's gating through - when really she's going straight down.

Yeah - it took me a few reads for me to get that.

[Carl]

:haley: My name is Haley Starshine and I approve of this message.

You could say it's her favourite message on the citadel.

[Shining Wrath]

How is OOTS a roguelike? Aren't roguelike games defined by their element of randomly generated challenges? OOTS is neither a game nor randomly generated.

Clearly OotS is not a game, as you say. It's a story about a group of adventurers loosely (increasingly loosely) associated with 3.5 D&D characters and opposed by 3.5 D&D monsters.

However, in the context of a video game (not a TTRPG) OotS is more rogue-like. If they collectively die, the entire world ends, and someday a new group of adventurers will try to truly seal away the Snarl.

[Ruck]

Clearly OotS is not a game, as you say. It's a story about a group of adventurers loosely (increasingly loosely) associated with 3.5 D&D characters and opposed by 3.5 D&D monsters.

However, in the context of a video game (not a TTRPG) OotS is more rogue-like. If they collectively die, the entire world ends, and someday a new group of adventurers will try to truly seal away the Snarl.

But that's not what defines a roguelike. The randomly generated levels and elements do.

(In some modern roguelikes, the game world doesn't reset after a death, either, but has elements that can be unlocked or upgraded permanently.)

[SlashDash]

Interesting that V decided to have Passwall from a scroll when before they memorized it (#857)
Though I suppose it's possible they didn't have time to write a scroll of it up until now

[Fishman]

With all these disguised wall/ceiling/floor monsters, I can’t help but recall the concept of the perfectly ordinary-looking room where literally everything in it is a well-disguised monster waiting to kill you.
Also, the room itself is a monster that has already eaten you.

[danielxcutter]

But that's not what defines a roguelike. The randomly generated levels and elements do.

(In some modern roguelikes, the game world doesn't reset after a death, either, but has elements that can be unlocked or upgraded permanently.)

I think those are called roguelites.

[Metastachydium]

Interesting that V decided to have Passwall from a scroll when before they memorized it (#857)
Though I suppose it's possible they didn't have time to write a scroll of it up until now

I know V seems to prepare lots of counterintuitively chosen spells (I mean, Bigsby's Cat Retrieving Hand?), but I can't see why they should keep preparing them.

[Fishman]

I know V seems to prepare lots of counterintuitively chosen spells (I mean, Bigsby's Cat Retrieving Hand?), but I can't see why they should keep preparing them.Probably because he keeps needing it for some bizarre reason. Since he keeps needing it, using it on a scroll would cost him tons of XP, so he keeps preparing it, because despite its counterintuitiveness and rather niche usage, apparently he says it keeps coming up.

[Metastachydium]

Probably because he keeps needing it for some bizarre reason.

Heh. Fair. (Although we've only ever seen them use it once.)

[danielxcutter]

I don’t think V was expecting combat that day, so they prepared a bunch of utility spells.

[Metastachydium]

I don’t think V was expecting combat that day, so they prepared a bunch of utility spells.

Disagreed. The Order was pretty sure that if they don't find the Linears at the Gate already, they won't be too far away.

[Doug Lampert]

Disagreed. The Order was pretty sure that if they don't find the Linears at the Gate already, they won't be too far away.

But they weren't planning to go to the gate that day, just to get some information from Tarquin.

And, in any case, the actual Bigby's Hand line of spells are combat spells. We don't actually know what spell V is casting for Cat Retrieving hand, that's just what he calls it when using it to retrieve a cat.

[Metastachydium]

But they weren't planning to go to the gate that day, just to get some information from Tarquin.

And, in any case, the actual Bigby's Hand line of spells are combat spells. We don't actually know what spell V is casting for Cat Retrieving hand, that's just what he calls it when using it to retrieve a cat.

I'm talking about Passwall, though.

[Doug Lampert]

I'm talking about Passwall, though.

Oh, well, carry on then. My mistake.

Having Passwall on a scroll for a combat day is fine. That's what you do with utility spells you may not need, put them on a scroll just in case.

[Fyraltari]

Oh, well, carry on then. My mistake.

Having Passwall on a scroll for a combat day is fine. That's what you do with utility spells you may not need, put them on a scroll just in case.

Could you use Passwall to drop an ennemy in the room below? Because that sounds rather useful in combat.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Could you use Passwall to drop an ennemy in the room below? Because that sounds rather useful in combat.
Especially if its into one of those rooms will with spikes covered in acid where also the air is tiny razor blades.

[RatElemental]

Could you use Passwall to drop an ennemy in the room below? Because that sounds rather useful in combat.

It's a touch range spell, so you'd have to be in melee range to make it work. Also it only goes 5 feet +5 more per 3 levels you have above 9th, so the most you can get below epic is 20 feet. It won't be enough to hurt anyone with fall damage, let alone kill them, but you could trap a single melee combatant small enough to fit into an 8 foot opening out of range and pelt them with spells which might have some niche usage in combat. Outside of a cramped dungeon, you'd probably be better off just flying out of range of all of the melee only combatants though, and inside of one using passwall to bypass, well, walls is likely to be much more useful than banishing one single enemy to the next floor.


Probably because he keeps needing it for some bizarre reason. Since he keeps needing it, using it on a scroll would cost him tons of XP, so he keeps preparing it, because despite its counterintuitiveness and rather niche usage, apparently he says it keeps coming up.

Scribing a scroll of passwall would cost 562 gold and 5 silver, 45 exp, and take two days. For a level 17+ wizard those are negligible costs.

[Fyraltari]

It's a touch range spell, so you'd have to be in melee range to make it work.
So, you'd fall too? That's too bad. It'd be some desperate move then.

Also it only goes 5 feet +5 more per 3 levels you have above 9th, so the most you can get below epic is 20 feet. It won't be enough to hurt anyone with fall damage, let alone kill them,
That depends on what's below you, though. Doing it on The Mechane or on a balcony would get more results.

[Psyren]

Oh, well, carry on then. My mistake.

Having Passwall on a scroll for a combat day is fine. That's what you do with utility spells you may not need, put them on a scroll just in case.

This is especially true for spells that don/t really depend on caster level to be effective. Even at minimum CL, Passwall lasts a whopping 9 hours and makes a 10ft. deep hole, which will get your party around most doors built into stone.

Also, the material component is one of the "jokey" ones :smallbiggrin:


So, you'd fall too? That's too bad. It'd be some desperate move then.

That depends on what other buffs you might have running when the floor goes away (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0981.html) :smalltongue:

[Ezekiel]

Drop them through the floor with passwall, dismiss the spell. Let them find their own way back :smallcool:

[hungrycrow]

Drop them through the floor with passwall, dismiss the spell. Let them find their own way back :smallcool:

It takes a standard action to dismiss it, so the opponents probably have a round to get through.

[bunsen_h]

That depends on what's below you, though. Doing it on The Mechane or on a balcony would get more results.

"FOUL!" (https://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20040714)

"He's fallen out of the airship!"

[Crusher]

"FOUL!" (https://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20040714)

"He's fallen out of the airship!"

Wow. That strip is 17 years old. Gah.


I absolutely LOVED FTL, and Into the Breach, and I'd add Haque, Cogmind, Heat Signature, Tangledeep, Streets of Rogue, Dungeons of Dredmore, Crypt of the Necrodancer and a few others to the list as well. For a slightly different take on it, UnReal World, Project Zomboid and Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead are good too.

But people are probably talking more about the likes of NetHack, Angbad and Rogue, or games that draw heavily on them.

Yeah, I spent a stunning amount of time playing Angband and Rogue variants. They were fun, but definitely not everyone's cup of tea and crushingly unforgiving. I have a screenshot of a character I was playing in... Hengband, I want to say (edit - I went and looked it up, it was Entroband), where I was going after the Chemist, a special, extra boss after the Serpent of Chaos. My character is almost totally out of healing potions, has like 8% health and is literally surrounded by powerful monsters. I titled it "I SURRENDER!" and then I suicided the character the next turn because there was no chance of survival or beating the Chemist and it'd have taken another game of playing to build the resources back up. Yet I remember it fondly.

Into the Breach, Slay the Spire and FTL were fantastic games (and FTL being so freaking hard only adds to its charm. I've only even gotten to the final sector a few times), and I also really enjoyed Hades. The production values and voice acting on that were way better than I expected. I've heard that Necrodancer is fun but I've never tried it.

[TheNecrocomicon]

So, you'd fall too? That's too bad. It'd be some desperate move then.

You don't necessarily have to. You melee-spell-attack the enemy and open the Passwall aperture underneath and behind the foe, then let gravity do its thing while your character remains standing on the rim. Or otherwise give the target the "this is Sparta" treatment to tip them over the edge.


That depends on what's below you, though. Doing it on The Mechane or on a balcony would get more results.

Doing it on the Mechane would also leave a hole in the hull and/or deck which would last until the spell was dismissed. But in terms of general falling distance and consequent damage, yes.

[RatElemental]

Wow. That strip is 17 years old. Gah.



Yeah, I spent a stunning amount of time playing Angband and Rogue variants. They were fun, but definitely not everyone's cup of tea and crushingly unforgiving. I have a screenshot of a character I was playing in... Hengband, I want to say (edit - I went and looked it up, it was Entroband), where I was going after the Chemist, a special, extra boss after the Serpent of Chaos. My character is almost totally out of healing potions, has like 8% health and is literally surrounded by powerful monsters. I titled it "I SURRENDER!" and then I suicided the character the next turn because there was no chance of survival or beating the Chemist and it'd have taken another game of playing to build the resources back up. Yet I remember it fondly.

Into the Breach, Slay the Spire and FTL were fantastic games (and FTL being so freaking hard only adds to its charm. I've only even gotten to the final sector a few times), and I also really enjoyed Hades. The production values and voice acting on that were way better than I expected. I've heard that Necrodancer is fun but I've never tried it.

I have a similar memory of FTL, actually. I got to the flagship with only a hacking system, teleporter, fire bomb and a pike beam (the weakest one) and still managed to squeak a win out with clever use of those tools. Having a zoltan shield bypass helped, though.

Crypt of the Necrodancer is definitely on the light side though, unless you do all zone runs (or try to play as Aria, Bolt, Coda or Tempo). Fantastic fun either way and I highly recommend, however. The sound track alone is worth price of admission.

I've dabbled in NetHack and Slash'EM as well, think the farthest I ever got in either was a gnome archaeologist past the mall in the latter.

[Thermophille]

I played Nethack when I was maybe 15. I played on the difficulty where whenever you die, you can choose to be restored to full health.

Even despite that, I still failed maybe two dozen runs. Running out of resources, getting surrounded by enemies I can't hurt, or getting stuck by equipping a two-handed cursed weapon with no way out. The farthest run I ever got, I fought a vampire that drained levels until I went from 18 to 1. Haven't played since.

Props to anyone who can reach the end even with cheats, let alone when you can actually die. Anyone who does challenge runs or doesn't use the wiki would have to be insane.

[Riftwolf]

Drop them through the floor with passwall, dismiss the spell. Let them find their own way back :smallcool:

Didn't Captain Jack Harkness do that?

[danielxcutter]

I’m surprised there aren’t magic traps that can do similar things already. Not custom magic traps, I mean in official material. Or at least something from the magazines.

[Vikenlugaid]

Now I am thinking if that wall is the only wall between the dungeon and the place where the paladins are...

[Robots]

Death Road to Canada is probably one of my favorite rougelike games, but I agree Crypt of the NecroDancer is great too.

Oh yeah, I should probably say something about the update too. Great update. I'm glad that Passwall scroll V mentioned offhandedly is coming into play.

[Fishman]

Heh. Fair. (Although we've only ever seen them use it once.)
Yes, but he told us explicitly it keeps coming up, regardless of whether we see it on screen, which explains his motivation for preparing it.


Scribing a scroll of passwall would cost 562 gold and 5 silver, 45 exp, and take two days. For a level 17+ wizard those are negligible costs.
Yes, but I was talking about Cat-Retrieving Hand, which he has prepared rather than scrolled because he says the usage keeps coming up. So if he keeps needing it, that's why he actually prepares this spell rather than using it as a scroll, whereas Passwall is a bit more of a niche usage case.

[danielxcutter]

Didn’t V use it twice? Once for Mr. Scruffy and once for Little Whiskers?

[bunsen_h]

Didn’t V use it twice? Once for Mr. Scruffy and once for Little Whiskers?

Yes (https://oots.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Uses_Various_Hand_Spells), along with the various other Hand spells.

[Gusion]

New comic is up.

My favorite part is how they just ignore the monster instead of killing it.

This shows growth for Belkar. Obviously he's now super CG.

[RatElemental]

The force hand spells are evocation and evocation is V's specialty. Gotta fill those school slots with something, and for lower level ones a niche utility spell is probably going to be more useful than doing 1d3 cold damage or something.

[danielxcutter]

Shame Xykon’s basically immune to the higher end ones now. I guess they can still be used to Bull Rush him.

[mjasghar]

Possibly it’s some sort of home brew that allows customisation of certain spells. So the Hand spells become more controllable and have wider applications

[bunsen_h]

Possibly it’s some sort of home brew that allows customisation of certain spells. So the Hand spells become more controllable and have wider applications

Something like a "Bugsby's Fill-In-The-Blank Hand", determined at casting time?

[Doug Lampert]

Something like a "Bugsby's Fill-In-The-Blank Hand", determined at casting time?

Order of the Stick clearly has people renaming spells, Thor's Might rather than Divine Might being the most obvious example. Bugsby rather than Bigsby being presumably purely for trademark/copyright/humor purposes.

In the SRD, there's Mage Hand as a cantrip (somewhat too weak to lift a cat). Then Interposing Hand (level 5), Forceful Hand (level 6), Grasping Hand (level 7), and Crushing Hand (level 9).

None of these but Mage Hand can actually pick up and move things. This strikes me as an oversight, Grasping Hand and Crushing Hand can both grapple a foe (Crushing hand has no option to do so without doing damage), both can bull's rush a foe and can be directed by the caster, and both specify that you can direct the hand to new targets; but the writers don't appear to have anticipated that you might want to move a grappled target despite that being a fairly standard thing to do with a grapple.

There's plenty of room for a hand spell that's an upgraded Mage Hand and can lift a cat, or for a version of Grasping Hand that can move a grappled creature without harming them.

Or Rich may have simply assumed that Hand Spells are allowed to pick things up and move them, it strikes me as bizarre that by the strict rules as I read them they can't do so. It's a giant hand that responds to your mental commands. You can command it to move, to grab something, to shove something, or to block someone from moving in a particular direction; but you CAN'T have the hand grab something and then move it?! What were they smoking?

[danielxcutter]

For what it’s worth, there’s a fair number of Hand spells outside Core. Greater Mage Hand, for example, can lift an object or creature that weighs up to 40 pounds.

[Edric O]

Wait... are they seriously going to rush into the unknown with only half the Order?

[danielxcutter]

Wait... are they seriously going to rush into the unknown with only half the Order?

Well, it’s that or sit around until she comes back with worse stuff.

[Fyraltari]

Wait... are they seriously going to rush into the unknown with only half the Order?

Probably not.

[Liquor Box]

Do we think Serini is worried about the beholder (or the other monsters she left behind)? It is pretty vulnerable right now, even just against the four of them left in the room. But the others might return soon.

Do we think she is just hoping that they show the monsters mercy? Their track record doesn't suggest that.

[Fyraltari]

Do we think Serini is worried about the beholder (or the other monsters she left behind)? It is pretty vulnerable right now, even just against the four of them left in the room. But the others might return soon.

Do we think she is just hoping that they show the monsters mercy? Their track record doesn't suggest that.

They planned for that exit. Sunny most likely has their own way out. Even if it's just making another hole in the wall (preferably higher up).

[danielxcutter]

There is also the factor that anyone who could actually hurt Sunny all came chasing after Serini.

[Fyraltari]

There is also the factor that anyone who could actually hurt Sunny all came chasing after Serini.

Yeah, but she just cut that chase down, in theory they'd have nowhere to go but the ambush chamber. This makes me wonder how Sunny can go to and from the lair. Do Eye Tyrants have teleportation powers? Or is Sunny reliant on Serini's wands?

[Albion]

Oh, V. Such an Elven way to act.

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, but she just cut that chase down, in theory they'd have nowhere to go but the ambush chamber. This makes me wonder how Sunny can go to and from the lair. Do Eye Tyrants have teleportation powers? Or is Sunny reliant on Serini's wands?

Pretty sure you can take at least one other creature with you via Dimension Door.

[bunsen_h]

Pretty sure you can take at least one other creature with you via Dimension Door.

"You may also bring (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionDoor.htm) one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent per three caster levels. A Large creature counts as two Medium creatures, a Huge creature counts as two Large creatures, and so forth." Assuming that the wand operates at the minimum possible caster level for that spell (8th), that would be 2, so Serini could transport Sunny if the latter is Large but not Huge. Most editions (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Beholder) seem to put Beholders as Large. Sunny seems to fit the size limit (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreatu resInCombat) (16') but I don't know about the weight limit (2 tons).

[Vikenlugaid]

Do we think Serini is worried about the beholder (or the other monsters she left behind)? It is pretty vulnerable right now, even just against the four of them left in the room. But the others might return soon.

Do we think she is just hoping that they show the monsters mercy? Their track record doesn't suggest that.
Their track record actually suggest exactly that, they never killed any "child monster" they have met.

Maybe that can be a test, and when they don't kill Sunny she will trust them at least a little.

Anyway I doubt her plan now is to just flee of them, I think she is leading them to a new trap, I mean, she knows she is being followed by a wizard, a rogue and a ranger, she should know that they were going to find that secret wall and be capable of crossing it.

[Psyren]

Well, it’s that or sit around until she comes back with worse stuff.

^That. Going back now is just asking her to vanish and ambush them again later. They're on her turf, but right now they have the initiative since she probably doesn't think they can follow her to her lair.


Their track record actually suggest exactly that, they never killed any "child monster" they have met.

With one notable exception (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html) :smalltongue::smallbiggrin:

[danielxcutter]

"You may also bring (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionDoor.htm) one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent per three caster levels. A Large creature counts as two Medium creatures, a Huge creature counts as two Large creatures, and so forth." Assuming that the wand operates at the minimum possible caster level for that spell (8th), that would be 2, so Serini could transport Sunny if the latter is Large but not Huge. Most editions (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Beholder) seem to put Beholders as Large. Sunny seems to fit the size limit (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreatu resInCombat) (16') but I don't know about the weight limit (2 tons).

Actually, minimum caster level for Dimension Door is 7, not 8.

[Vikenlugaid]

^That. Going back now is just asking her to vanish and ambush them again later. They're on her turf, but right now they have the initiative since she probably doesn't think they can follow her to her lair.



With one notable exception (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html) :smalltongue::smallbiggrin:
Well and Belkar attacked MITD, let's talk about the good members of the Order only XD

[mjasghar]

^That. Going back now is just asking her to vanish and ambush them again later. They're on her turf, but right now they have the initiative since she probably doesn't think they can follow her to her lair.



With one notable exception (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html) :smalltongue::smallbiggrin:

Wasn’t it a young adult - so equivalent to the goblin teenagers in the very first strips.

[bunsen_h]

Actually, minimum caster level for Dimension Door is 7, not 8.

Oops -- I was looking at the Sorcerers' table. At any rate, that doesn't change the rest of the calculation regarding DimDoor passengers.

[Carl]

Oops -- I was looking at the Sorcerers' table. At any rate, that doesn't change the rest of the calculation regarding DimDoor passengers.

To me the spell effect looks rather bright:smallbiggrin:.

[Psyren]

Wasn’t it a young adult - so equivalent to the goblin teenagers in the very first strips.

This gets into questions of whether you consider a teenager to be a child that I'll avoid here. Suffice to say his mother referred to him that way.


Well and Belkar attacked MITD, let's talk about the good members of the Order only XD

True but I was focusing on "killed" :smalltongue:

[Fyraltari]

I think Elan killed a few of those goblin teens...

[Gnoman]

A beholder -even a timid one like Sunny seems to be - is an extremely dangerous opponent, and two of the Order's strongest members is already out of action. Of the people still standing, V is easily neutralized by the antimagic cone, Minrah's very low level, and neither Elan or Belkar have any serious ranged attacks. Practically speaking, the only way Sunny's getting killed here is if Haley manages to solo her. I can't fault Serini for assuming that Sunny will be able to escape easily enough.

[KorvinStarmast]

Elan and Sunny, I suspect, will be engaging in a conversation when we next see them.

[bunsen_h]

Elan and Sunny, I suspect, will be engaging in a conversation when we next see them.

"My turn. What have I got in my pockets?"

"You're an... eye... being. You have pockets?"

[Liquor Box]

They planned for that exit. Sunny most likely has their own way out. Even if it's just making another hole in the wall (preferably higher up).

Maybe that's it, and Sunny will have escaped. He did seem to think that he had to continue to guard the hole though.


There is also the factor that anyone who could actually hurt Sunny all came chasing after Serini.
First, as Fyraltari said, one option for Belkar's group is to now return to the ambush room, in which case Serini would be well outmatched.

Second, I don't think we can assume Durkon and Roy and still incapacitated - and with those two up, the beholder would be outmatched even without Belkar's group.


Their track record actually suggest exactly that, they never killed any "child monster" they have met.

Maybe that can be a test, and when they don't kill Sunny she will trust them at least a little.

Anyway I doubt her plan now is to just flee of them, I think she is leading them to a new trap, I mean, she knows she is being followed by a wizard, a rogue and a ranger, she should know that they were going to find that secret wall and be capable of crossing it.

What child monster have they captured and then released? (assuming child monster is a fair classification of the beholder).


I doubt she is using the beholder's life as a test. She seems attached to it.

She may have another trap, although some seem to think she has now retreated to her chamber. But that wont help ppotect against Roy and Durkon (assuming Elan frees them).

[InvisibleBison]

Second, I don't think we can assume Durkon and Roy and still incapacitated - and with those two up, Serini would be outmatched even without Belkar's group.

I don't think this is correct. Both Durkon and Roy rely entirely on magic ranged attacks. If Sunny just floats out of reach and opens their central eye, there's nothing Roy or Durkon could do to hurt them.

[mjasghar]

This gets into questions of whether you consider a teenager to be a child that I'll avoid here. Suffice to say his mother referred to him that way.


Parents will refer to their offspring as their child regardless of actual age category.

[Liquor Box]

I don't think this is correct. Both Durkon and Roy rely entirely on magic ranged attacks. If Sunny just floats out of reach and opens their central eye, there's nothing Roy or Durkon could do to hurt them.

Well that was all true in the first ambush too, and they had the additional advantage of being able to hit back through Serini's poison crossbow. Yes the Order overcame that. Now the beholder is already badly wounded.

I guess it comes down to is that the beholder could probably escape if it needed too - either by mking ahold and fleeing, or by trying to hold the order off in the way you described. But if the beholder tries to stop the group from following Serini through the hole it is probably toast. After all it is already quite badly wounded.


Parents will refer to their offspring as their child regardless of actual age category.

We don't know that the beholder isn't a teenager. Indeed, although it has a childish demeanor, I don't actually think it is sub-adult. It seems to have all the powers of a normal beholder, and immature monsters usually have less power.

[Peelee]

Well that was all true in the first ambush too, and they had the additional advantage of being able to hit back through Serini's poison crossbow. Yes the Order overcame that.

In a manner not likely to work twice. And it's not like Sunny couldn't petrify more. Or use any of the other beams more.

None of that is going to happen because of dramatic reasons, but even barring all that, I would not say Sunny is in grave danger. They are a very powerful being, and underestimating that power is not likely to lead to good outcomes.

[Liquor Box]

In a manner not likely to work twice. And it's not like Sunny couldn't petrify more. Or use any of the other beams more.

None of that is going to happen because of dramatic reasons, but even barring all that, I would not say Sunny is in grave danger. They are a very powerful being, and underestimating that power is not likely to lead to good outcomes.

It may not work the same way twice, but there are different ways that Sunny might make suboptimal choice - as I already pointed out one possibility is that it think it needs to stop the rest of the Order from following Serini.

I think that a beholder cannot use its other eye powers at the same time as it's anti magic ray. So if it turns off the anti-magic ray, Roy could throw his sword, or Durkon could cast whatever. If that does happen, all the eye rays are subject to saves (and I think someone worked out that the probability of saving is over 50%). On the other hand, Sunny is already badly wounded.

You are right that a beholder is powerful, but it would still usually be outmatched by a party of the Order's level. I agree that a fight could possibly go Sunny's way, but the odds are against it. As I pointed out, the Order got the better of Sunny and Serini combined, despite having some really bad save rolls. It's not like Sunny's death would be a certainty, but at the very least it is in grave danger.

[Hurkyl]

I think that a beholder cannot use its other eye powers at the same time as it's anti magic ray.
I thought the reverse; that they don't interfere with each other at all, aside from what an anti-magic field does to magical effects. Or is that what you meant?

I assume the central eye works like antimagic field? Am I reading that correctly in that, for example, the sleep ray can still be successfully cast on someone in the antimagic field, and that it just won't do anything until the target leaves the field (or the field is turned off)?


I don't think this is correct. Both Durkon and Roy rely entirely on magic ranged attacks. If Sunny just floats out of reach and opens their central eye, there's nothing Roy or Durkon could do to hurt them.
I don't think there's nothing they can do -- it's just that the effects won't be as useful as they normally would be. They're still thrown weapons, after all. Heck, they might even get the full magic bonuses on a successful hit since Sunny himself is not in the anti-magic field. I assume Roy would be substantially more effective than Durkon, though.

[Liquor Box]

I thought the reverse; that they don't interfere with each other at all, aside from what an anti-magic field does to magical effects. Or is that what you meant?

I assume the central eye works like antimagic field? Am I reading that correctly in that, for example, the sleep ray can still be successfully cast on someone in the antimagic field, and that it just won't do anything until the target leaves the field (or the field is turned off)?

I don;t really know the answer to this. I can see that Sunny didn't use any of its other eye rays at the same time as its anti-magic field in the recent skirmish (Serini was shooting her crossbow at the same time). But someone else probably knows the rules better than me.

[Peelee]

It may not work the same way twice, but there are different ways that Sunny might make suboptimal choice - as I already pointed out one possibility is that it think it needs to stop the rest of the Order from following Serini.

I think that a beholder cannot use its other eye powers at the same time as it's anti magic ray. So if it turns off the anti-magic ray, Roy could throw his sword, or Durkon could cast whatever. If that does happen, all the eye rays are subject to saves (and I think someone worked out that the probability of saving is over 50%). On the other hand, Sunny is already badly wounded.

You are right that a beholder is powerful, but it would still usually be outmatched by a party of the Order's level. I agree that a fight could possibly go Sunny's way, but the odds are against it. As I pointed out, the Order got the better of Sunny and Serini combined, despite having some really bad save rolls. It's not like Sunny's death would be a certainty, but at the very least it is in grave danger.

I also don't see why they would be insistent on fighting Sunny in the antimgaic field when an exit is readily apparent.

Round 2 is unlikely to happen, Sunny is almost certainly in zero danger.

[Liquor Box]

I also don't see why they would be insistent on fighting Sunny in the antimgaic field when an exit is readily apparent.

Round 2 is unlikely to happen, Sunny is almost certainly in zero danger.

Well, the obvious answer is that they would want to do so if Sunny insists on blocking the exit - which was what it was doing when we last saw it.

You're right, if Sunny seeks to escape though, they probably wouldn't make much effort to stop it.

[danielxcutter]

Beholders are kinda BS to fight because of the antimagic cone; it might have been okay in editions where magic bonuses weren’t mandatory(and even then shutting down certain classes entirely sucks) but in 3.5e at least unless the party’s invested in nonmagical ranged attacks a lot it can just use the Telekinesis ray to beat you to death by throwing rocks into the cone.

[Peelee]

Well, the obvious answer is that they would want to do so if Sunny insists on blocking the exit - which was what it was doing when we last saw it.

You're right, if Sunny seeks to escape though, they probably wouldn't make much effort to stop it.

Sunny was shooting at those following Serini and then following up with an anti-magic field, until distracted. At which point Sunny was simply talking to Elan. I think "blocking the exit" is not an accurate description of what Sunny was intentionally doing.

Not to mention that anti-magic field as a denial tactic doesn't work terribly well if Sunny floats down at melee range.

[Liquor Box]

Sunny was shooting at those following Serini and then following up with an anti-magic field, until distracted. At which point Sunny was simply talking to Elan. I think "blocking the exit" is not an accurate description of what Sunny was intentionally doing.

Not to mention that anti-magic field as a denial tactic doesn't work terribly well if Sunny floats down at melee range.

So you thnk Sunny just went down to the hole to say good bye to Serini, rather than to block it off? I though the refusal to step aside suggested it was intentionally blocking the exit.

Either way, flying to ground level does leave it vulnerable. It could fly up into the sky again while Elan revives his companions, if it doesn't care about them following Serini though. If it doesn't do that immediately, a power attack from Roy could finish it though.

Really it still comes down to what Fyraltari said a page back - does Sunny want to escape, or stop the Order following Serini. If the former it will probably be able to (although not without some danger), but if the latter it will probably fail unless it puts itself into considerable danger.


Beholders are kinda BS to fight because of the antimagic cone; it might have been okay in editions where magic bonuses weren’t mandatory(and even then shutting down certain classes entirely sucks) but in 3.5e at least unless the party’s invested in nonmagical ranged attacks a lot it can just use the Telekinesis ray to beat you to death by throwing rocks into the cone.

I reckon its great that there are some rules in the game which counter the magic dominates everything at higher levels problem. Bring on more stuff that shut down magic I reckon.

[danielxcutter]

Sunny was shooting at those following Serini and then following up with an anti-magic field, until distracted. At which point Sunny was simply talking to Elan. I think "blocking the exit" is not an accurate description of what Sunny was intentionally doing.

Not to mention that anti-magic field as a denial tactic doesn't work terribly well if Sunny floats down at melee range.

I mean, Minrah and Elan are the only ones capable of attacking Sunny at all. In an AMF, Minrah can't buff, Elan can't use bardic magic, and neither of them can benefit from magic items or get Roy or Durkon back into the fight.

A particularly sadistic DM might have Sunny angle the AMF cone so they can still use Telekinesis to throw the petrified Durkon(which would probably also damage him enough to prevent him being revived), but even back in Don't Split the Party with the advanced pit fiend and Thieves' Guild and ABD the "DM" was never that bad.


I reckon its great that there are some rules in the game which counter the magic dominates everything at higher levels problem. Bring on more stuff that shut down magic I reckon.

I would approve of it more if not for two things; the stats of encounters inherently account for magical bonuses and sometimes magical defenses like Freedom of Movement, and that it makes spellcasters almost entirely useless without min-maxing cheese most people don't even consider using.

[Peelee]

So you thnk Sunny just went down to the hole to say good bye to Serini, rather than to block it off?

Sunny was shooting at those following Serini and then following up with an anti-magic field, until distracted.
Sunny had no intention to block the exit, and even offered to step aside at first. They only objected because they thought they were being tricked. I feel safe in saying that if the rest of the party were on their feet, armed with melee weapons, rushing towards where Sunny is, and enough time for Serini to have bolted back to her hidey hole (a round or two, maybe ten, maybe twenty seconds; Sunny certainly knows the details on getting back there), Sunny would have no reason to block the exit.

It is remarkably unlikely that Sunny is in danger, or that Serini has any reason to think Sunny will be in danger.

[danielxcutter]

I mean, she thinks they'll try to destroy the Gate no matter what. I don't really think she has any sort of faith in them.

That being said, "the only people capable of even scratching Sunny chasing after her" is probably more than enough.

[Peelee]

I mean, she thinks they'll try to destroy the Gate no matter what. I don't really think she has any sort of faith in them.

Her belief about what they intend to do with the Gate as a last ditch action is irrelevant to any belief she may have about what they would do in any other situation.

[Emanick]

This gets into questions of whether you consider a teenager to be a child that I'll avoid here. Suffice to say his mother referred to him that way.

The dragon V killed was a Young Adult (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0188.html). A Young Adult is an adult. An adult is not a child, by definition.

Ergo, when V killed him, s/he was not killing a child.

It may have been ethically problematic in other ways (I'd argue not, since it was basically self-defense, but that's at least debatable), but it was not child-slaying.

[danielxcutter]

I mean, it was basically a house invasion. Maybe it wasn't an outright Evil act, but the dragon hadn't actually done anything that we know of before that. It's not like the Order was after some crucial resource(to their knowledge) at the time either. And it's not like they couldn't have tried to retreat or parley either.

[Emanick]

I mean, it was basically a house invasion. Maybe it wasn't an outright Evil act, but the dragon hadn't actually done anything that we know of before that. It's not like the Order was after some crucial resource(to their knowledge) at the time either. And it's not like they couldn't have tried to retreat or parley either.

It was an unlabeled cave. The Order can't be blamed for venturing in; there was absolutely no sign of sentient habitation that we saw. They were attacked on sight and attempted to flee before fighting back.

I guess they could have employed divination magic to find out if the cave was inhabited by sentient beings before venturing in, or tried to flee for longer before fighting back (although Elan seems to have become pinned by the dragon during the very first round of combat, so even that may not have been morally defensible), but aside from that, it's hard to see what else they could have done.

[Metastachydium]

I mean, it was basically a house invasion.

Those damn dragons shouldn't have chosen to live in such an obviously cool adventure location (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0975.html)!


Maybe it wasn't an outright Evil act, but the dragon hadn't actually done anything that we know of before that.

But its scales weren't all shiny (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0207.html)!


It's not like the Order was after some crucial resource(to their knowledge) at the time either.

Roy thought that this is the only way to fix his sword, though. How crucial a resource that was at the point is up to debate, of course.

[Bacon Elemental]

By the standards of adventurers, the Order's actions at the Starmetal Cave weren't exactly out of hand (As much as V executing the charmed dragon was the catalyst for a whole heap of very unpleasant things, it's hard to categorise as being much worse than the coup-de-graces against the goblins who succumbed to V's not-spell.


Of course, the standards of adventurers are rarely a good moral code to stand by, and definitely not in that case, ha ha. Any of the other party members other than belkar could probbably have defused the situation if they'd been the polymorphed lizard without immediately resorting to "cast mind control spells and hope he Roll a natural 1 on his save", given the dragon's amicability to them as a harmless lizard and obvious combat superiority to the rest of the order.

[Metastachydium]

By the standards of adventurers, the Order's actions at the Starmetal Cave weren't exactly out of hand (As much as V executing the charmed dragon was the catalyst for a whole heap of very unpleasant things,

Well, while hardly commendable, it was still a lot better than enslaving and actively torturing Yukyuk which happened after those unpleasant things.


it's hard to categorise as being much worse than the coup-de-graces against the goblins who succumbed to V's not-spell.

That one reflected quite poorly on them too, yes.

[hroþila]

I mean, it was basically a house invasion.
It was not. The Order only reached the dragons' home later, after squeezing through an underwater tunnel.

[hamishspence]

That's like the bedroom of a house, and the "front porch" is the pit in the ground near where the meteor hit.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0180.html

[danielxcutter]

It was not. The Order only reached the dragons' home later, after squeezing through an underwater tunnel.

That was still basically the front door, though.

Edit: aaaaand swordsage’d.

[Psyren]

Parents will refer to their offspring as their child regardless of actual age category.

Sure. Like I said, I'm not touching/getting goaded into that discussion.


The dragon V killed was a Young Adult (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0188.html). A Young Adult is an adult. An adult is not a child, by definition.

Ergo, when V killed him, s/he was not killing a child.

It may have been ethically problematic in other ways (I'd argue not, since it was basically self-defense, but that's at least debatable), but it was not child-slaying.


I mean, it was basically a house invasion. Maybe it wasn't an outright Evil act, but the dragon hadn't actually done anything that we know of before that. It's not like the Order was after some crucial resource(to their knowledge) at the time either. And it's not like they couldn't have tried to retreat or parley either.

And this is why. Once you start debating the adulthood of the dragon in question, "Was the Order morally justified" conversations are inevitable.

[danielxcutter]

I mean, if the deva didn’t mention it, it’s presumably not too bad.

And as the Planetar showed in O-Chul’s story, celestials have a rather dim view of killing mortals, even “monstrous races”, for little reason.

[Riftwolf]

I mean, if the deva didn’t mention it, it’s presumably not too bad.

And as the Planetar showed in O-Chul’s story, celestials have a rather dim view of killing mortals, even “monstrous races”, for little reason.

I guess early comics don't count to your permanent record.

[Peelee]

The Order, quite simply, didn't kill the dragon. V did. The Order did not know they were invading a dwelling, attempted to run, and defended themselves when that failed. V neutralized the dragon, and effectively held the Order hostage. V then slayed the dragon alone.

Regardless of anything else, that was purely on V's head, not the Order's as a whole.

[danielxcutter]

I think it's fair to say that V was being extremely callous at the best there, though.

[hamishspence]

The dragon V killed was a Young Adult (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0188.html). A Young Adult is an adult.

Young Adult fiction is aimed at 12-18 year olds. In that context, a Young Adult human could be as young as 12 - allowing a Young Adult dragon to be the equivalent of a 12 year old. Or an 18 year old. Depending on how the author wants it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_adult_fiction
Young adult fiction (YA) is a category of fiction written for readers from 12 to 18 years of age.

[Peelee]

I think it's fair to say that V was being extremely callous at the best there, though.

Oh I wholly agree.

[Skull the Troll]

Young Adult fiction is aimed at 12-18 year olds. In that context, a Young Adult human could be as young as 12 - allowing a Young Adult dragon to be the equivalent of a 12 year old. Or an 18 year old. Depending on how the author wants it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_adult_fiction
Young adult fiction (YA) is a category of fiction written for readers from 12 to 18 years of age.

Young Adult fiction is intended to be bought by Teenagers, who dont like to be called "older children" A legal definition of young adult (in our world) is over 18. A biological definition would be "able to breed" which is closer to what you're saying.

[Peelee]

A legal definition of young adult (in our world) is over 18.

Legal definitions are really not something you ever want to rely on if you're not a lawyer arguing law. Even setting aside all other considerations, these change from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, which can vary greatly in size. For example, your definition fails in Alabama.

[hamishspence]

A legal definition of young adult (in our world) is over 18.

I've never heard that term used. "Legal adult", yes but not "Legal young adult".

[Peelee]

I've never heard that term used. "Legal adult", yes but not "Legal young adult".

Yeah, that too. Again, legal definitions are not a good thing to hinge anything on outside of talking with an attorney, and even then it should be coming from the attorney.

[bunsen_h]

Yeah, that too. Again, legal definitions are not a good thing to hinge anything on outside of talking with an attorney, and even then it should be coming from the attorney.

There are any number of "Sovereign Citizen fails" videos on YouTube, showing what happens when someone insists that definitions from Black's Law Dictionary overrule the statutes in their jurisdiction. "I'm not driving, I'm travelling, and I have a constitutional right to do that! It's only driving if I'm doing it for commercial purposes!" "This isn't a motor vehicle, it's personal property!" These generally don't end well.

[Peelee]

There are any number of "Sovereign Citizen fails" videos on YouTube, showing what happens when someone insists that definitions from Black's Law Dictionary overrule the statutes in their jurisdiction. "I'm not driving, I'm travelling, and I have a constitutional right to do that! It's only driving if I'm doing it for commercial purposes!" "This isn't a motor vehicle, it's personal property!" These generally don't end well.

Fun fact! I'm British Commonwealth areas, they like to call themselves "freeman of the land". I think one of my favorites was the guy who tried to claim land by throwing four hatchets into the ground and declaring those the corners of his newly acquired land.

[bunsen_h]

Fun fact! I'm British Commonwealth areas, they like to call themselves "freeman of the land". I think one of my favorites was the guy who tried to claim land by throwing four hatchets into the ground and declaring those the corners of his newly acquired land.

I hadn't heard of that "practise". The only reference I'm seeing to it is this (https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/qrxloh/brother_is_using_common_law_to_evict_me_from_my/) -- is that the incident you're referring to?