A question for you Final Fantasy fans!

[Thoughtbot360]

How do you use a Phoenix Down?

I mean, the item itself looks like a feather, "Down" are the "hairs" on a bird's feather, but this doesn't really answer what we do with the "Down". (There's also a question about where the item shops get the phoenix to get the down from to begin with, but whatever). But do you make the subject swallow the down, do you just place it on the body, I mean, what is it?

[TheOtherMC]

Do you drink the Potion? Do you cook the Ethers before you smoke them? How exactly do you transport a Maiden's Kiss? These are all important questions people!

[Xuincherguixe]

For the Phoenix Down, my assumption is that it comes in pillow form and one throws them at the dead person.

[Dihan]

You obviously use the feather to tickle the feet of the corpse.

[Xefas]

Couldn't "Echo Screen" and "Maiden's Kiss" and "Phoenix Down" just be names for potions; named such for what they do?

Like you might name a sword that shoots fire from its blade "Dragon's Breath", even though it obviously isn't literal.

Or perhaps its a potion with a phoenix feather dissolved in it?

[Green Bean]

Couldn't "Echo Screen" and "Maiden's Kiss" and "Phoenix Down" just be names for potions; named such for what they do?

Like you might name a sword that shoots fire from its blade "Dragon's Breath", even though it obviously isn't literal.

Or perhaps its a potion with a phoenix feather dissolved in it?

That's a logical and plausible theory. The Internet will eat you alive. :smalltongue:

[TheOtherMC]

Couldn't "Echo Screen" and "Maiden's Kiss" and "Phoenix Down" just be names for potions; named such for what they do?

Like you might name a sword that shoots fire from its blade "Dragon's Breath", even though it obviously isn't literal.

Or perhaps its a potion with a phoenix feather dissolved in it?

HOW DARE YOU INJECT LOGIC INTO OUR BLIND SPECULATION!

[Xefas]

HOW DARE YOU INJECT LOGIC INTO OUR BLIND SPECULATION!

IT WAS FOR THE GREATER GOOD, SHAS'O!

[Cubey]

I always viewed it as a feather that you have to throw at people, and it activates its magic on touch. Of course throwing a feather accurately is a feat in itself.

Also, Phoenix/Fenix Down does not ressurect dead people, only revives unconscious ones. All "fight deaths" in Final Fantasies are just party members being knocked out, with the exception of FF1 when you actually had to raise them in town or something like that.

EDIT: This post coming from one who gets really, really angry if someone asks in his vicinity "Why didn't they raise Aerith with a Fenix Down?". Don't ask that question if you value your life.

[Lord Shplane]

Also, Phoenix/Fenix Down does not ressurect dead people, only revives unconscious ones. All "fight deaths" in Final Fantasies are just party members being knocked out, with the exception of FF1 when you actually had to raise them in town or something like that.

EDIT: This post coming from one who gets really, really angry if someone asks in his vicinity "Why didn't they raise Aerith with a Fenix Down?". Don't ask that question if you value your life.


I have a feeling that they *did* die in the Japanese versions, and that they felt like they had to "Clean them up" for the American ones.

I mean look at the spell that brings them back.

Life. Not consciousness.

EDIT: Pheonix Downs are a supository.

[Cubey]

EDIT: My post was of inferior quality.

I will strip it to one point - if you believe the translators went out of their way to mask that characters die in this game, wouldn't they censor out all of the plot-related deaths as well?

[Lord Shplane]

EDIT: My post was of inferior quality.

I will strip it to one point - if you believe the translators went out of their way to mask that characters die in this game, wouldn't they censor out all of the plot-related deaths as well?


No, because translators are idiots.

[Nerd-o-rama]

The "fight death is a knockout" bit was included in later games so they could have irreversible plot deaths for people like Tellah, Galuf, Cid (maybe), and Aeris.

And Phoenix Downs are activated the same way as all items in Final Fantasy: by chucking them at the target, or I guess just touching them to your skin if you're using them on yourself (not that you can with a Phoenix Down specifically). Presumably, Downs are weighted in some way for accurate throwing.

[Cubey]

No, because translators are idiots.

Having the pleasure to play FF VI in both Woolsey's and fan translations (the fan one being more close to the original), I disagree.

[Sneak]

My old (dead) comic explains all! (http://halfwit.smackjeeves.com/comics/58433/this-is-why-they-prefer-not-to-die/)

Really, the only explanation: magic.

A wizard did it.

[Yuki Akuma]

My old (dead) comic explains all! (http://halfwit.smackjeeves.com/comics/58433/this-is-why-they-prefer-not-to-die/)

Really, the only explanation: magic.

All has been reviled.

[Lord Shplane]

Having the pleasure to play FF VI in both Woolsey's and fan translations (the fan one being more close to the original), I disagree.

Maybe in that one game. But generally, they're idiots. Especially in anime.

[Green Bean]

All has been reviled.

Typo or Freudian slip? You be the judge. :smalltongue:

[Thoughtbot360]

Maybe in that one game. But generally, they're idiots. Especially in anime.

Tell me about it. I mean 4kids alone is enough unnecessary editing for all the history of the world to fulfill some kind of cosmic quota, but have you heard L's voice in the English Dub of Death Note? Its got the "mysterious" part down, but he's much younger. When episode six airs, his "Bang!" line as done by this gravely voice will clearly be one for the record books. *rolls eyes*


Also, creating this thread was the best idea I ever had. Some of the responses are hilarious.

So far, the only reasonable explanation posted here (if we want to keep it serious) is Xefas' "They are all really potions, just named fancily." I'd point out that I had already come up with that idea, but I really appreciate the effort, and I feel bad that the internet subsequently ate him alive upon mentioning that. :smallfrown:

In other news, forcing dead/unconscious people to swallow liquids is fun!

[Lord Shplane]

In other news, forcing dead/unconscious people to swallow liquids is fun!

It's MUCH better than the suppository version.

[Eldritch_Ent]

I always wondered that about Aeris- Why didn't they at least TRY a pheonix down? Or some cure spells? or both? It just seems kinda silly.


However, I've always wondered just what an "Echo Screen" is and how it works. Do you stand behind it? Is it some sort of Magical Megaphone that lets you talk through silence? Is it an inhaler full of loudifying ingredients? The mind boggles.

[tyckspoon]

Tell me about it. I mean 4kids alone is enough unnecessary editing for all the history of the world to fulfill some kind of cosmic quota, but have you heard L's voice in the English Dub of Death Note? Its got the "mysterious" part down, but he's much younger. When episode six airs, his "Bang!" line as done by this gravely voice will clearly be one for the record books. *rolls eyes*


Also, creating this thread was the best idea I ever had. Some of the responses are hilarious.

So far, the only reasonable explanation posted here (if we want to keep it serious) is Xefas' "They are all really potions, just named fancily." I'd point out that I had already come up with that idea, but I really appreciate the effort, and I feel bad that the internet subsequently ate him alive upon mentioning that. :smallfrown:

In other news, forcing dead/unconscious people to swallow liquids is fun!

In this thread, people continue to confuse 'translation' for 'casting and directing of voice actors'. (Hello, pet peeve. Nice of you to come back inside.)

I think the Phoenix Down is intended to be real down from a phoenix. Which seems odd and hard to get, but if you've ever summoned Phoenix you'll notice the bird drops the stuff all over the place. All you have to do is get somebody to summon up Phoenix and have it shake its wings over some crates. You'll get plenty of Phoenix Down to package.

The other stuff is probably just potions with fancy names, but Phoenix Down's animation uses little feathers and, when the item has an icon, it's a feather as opposed to the potion bottles of most everything else.

[Lord Shplane]

When people say "Translation" they don't only mean the words being switched over to a different language. Yes, that is the technical meaning of the term, but that's not what it's being used as, and people know that they're not using it as the word that it actually means.

People use "Translation" as an umbrella term to describe the entire process of taking an anime/game/manga/whatever, and changing it into a different language for a different area.

EDIT: I suppose "Localization" might be a better term.

[Duke Malagigi]

I always wondered that about Aeris- Why didn't they at least TRY a pheonix down? Or some cure spells? or both? It just seems kinda silly.

I think the proper term would be Plot Induced Stupidity (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotInducedStupidity). That or Mass Idiot Ball (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IdiotBall).

[Woot Spitum]

I always wondered that about Aeris- Why didn't they at least TRY a pheonix down? Or some cure spells? or both? It just seems kinda silly.Three possible explanations.

1. IITS. (It's in the script)

2. The party in FFVII is composed of a bunch of morons.

3. All of the above.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Malagigi, why quote the wise and mighty TV Tropes and miss the most applicable one: Plotline Death (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotlineDeath).

I still hold by the "battlefield death is a KO" explanation. We're pretty obviously dealing with an abstracted combat system, here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLnejSsa7_k).

[Duke Malagigi]

Malagigi, why quote the wise and mighty TV Tropes and miss the most applicable one: Plotline Death (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotlineDeath).

I still hold by the "battlefield death is a KO" explanation. We're pretty obviously dealing with an abstracted combat system, here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLnejSsa7_k).

Okay then, but that shouldn't justify Plot Induced Stupidity. Granny Weatherwax, Death, Ridcully, Constable Igor, Miracle Max and Doctor House would have had made more of an attempt to revive Aeris than the temporary idiot squad of Cloud and friends. The six I mentioned are smarter than that. All together they'd at least test to see they could revive Aeris. Igor is from Uberwald and Miracle Max is, well Miracle Max damn it! Just collect some herbs and get a really good and long lightning rod and hook the dead girl up to it!

[Nerd-o-rama]

But they aren't in Final Fantasy VII, are they? I mean, what do those guys have to do with the topic at hand?

Now, admittedly, earlier games had done a better job of showing attempts to raise an unraisable character:

Renna: "Cure 3!"
Faris: "Life 2!"
Galuf: "I'm sorry, but I just took too much freaking damage in that fight. Gak."
Bartz: "Dammit!"

Or something like that. But I think the point is that they couldn't revive her, because she'd actually been killed rather than knocked out, and they knew as much. Of course, they could have chucked her body straight into the Lifestream. It worked for Sephiroth, apparently, although he might have been, to quote your friend Miracle Max, only mostly dead.

[tyckspoon]

But they aren't in Final Fantasy VII, are they? I mean, what do those guys have to do with the topic at hand?

Now, admittedly, earlier games had done a better job of showing attempts to raise an unraisable character:

Renna: "Cure 3!"
Faris: "Life 2!"
Galuf: "I'm sorry, but I just took too much freaking damage in that fight. Gak."
Bartz: "Dammit!"

Or something like that. But I think the point is that they couldn't revive her, because she'd actually been killed rather than knocked out, and they knew as much. Of course, they could have chucked her body straight into the Lifestream. It worked for Sephiroth, apparently, although he might have been, to quote your friend Miracle Max, only mostly dead.

Alternately, if you're badass enough, you can force the Lifestream to spawn you a new body. I think that's what Sephiroth did. (And/or his not-sufficiently-torched Jenova cells regenerated him.) Me, I find it more unlikely that there was an apparently infinitely deep pool with a shelf that drops from supporting Cloud waist-high in the water to letting Aeris sink out of sight within a couple of feet.

[Paragon Badger]

Better question: How does the FFT chemist throw a glass bottle at someone's face and it heals them?

[Nerd-o-rama]

Alternately, if you're badass enough, you can force the Lifestream to spawn you a new body. I think that's what Sephiroth did. (And/or his not-sufficiently-torched Jenova cells regenerated him.) Me, I find it more unlikely that there was an apparently infinitely deep pool with a shelf that drops from supporting Cloud waist-high in the water to letting Aeris sink out of sight within a couple of feet.
No, that was just special effects.

I still haven't quite figured out what the hell was going on with Sephiroth's resurrection in Advent Children. I'd agree with the "enough Jenova cells in one place regenerates him" theory, and his spirit is still kicking around because of the Epic XP he got from getting doused in the Lifestream in the first place. (Note to Cloud: stop throwing your enemies off catwalks).

[Duke Malagigi]

But they aren't in Final Fantasy VII, are they? I mean, what do those guys have to do with the topic at hand?

They don't quit before they exaust all possible options and they're much smarter. This is also assuming that they accidentally stumble into a portal to the world of Final Fantasy VII.


Now, admittedly, earlier games had done a better job of showing attempts to raise an unraisable character:

Renna: "Cure 3!"
Faris: "Life 2!"
Galuf: "I'm sorry, but I just took too much freaking damage in that fight. Gak."
Bartz: "Dammit!"

Or something like that. But I think the point is that they couldn't revive her, because she'd actually been killed rather than knocked out, and they knew as much. Of course, they could have chucked her body straight into the Lifestream. It worked for Sephiroth, apparently, although he might have been, to quote your friend Miracle Max, only mostly dead.

Then they should have gone to great lengths to explain why
they couldn't at least try to revive her. And, yes chucking her corpse into the Lifestream counts. But it would probably take the six I mentioned to bring it up in the first place.

[Xefas]

No, that was just special effects.

I still haven't quite figured out what the hell was going on with Sephiroth's resurrection in Advent Children. I'd agree with the "enough Jenova cells in one place regenerates him" theory, and his spirit is still kicking around because of the Epic XP he got from getting doused in the Lifestream in the first place. (Note to Cloud: stop throwing your enemies off catwalks).

Considering the last time I played Final Fantasy 7 was when I was 8(ish), I don't know for sure, but I was under the impression that Kadaj was an incomplete clone of Sephiroth, and the merge with Jenova perfected him into his intended form with some kind of genetic memory.

If that isn't the case, then I'd sure like to know the truth, myself.

[Setra]

I always wondered that about Aeris- Why didn't they at least TRY a pheonix down? Or some cure spells? or both? It just seems kinda silly.Actually, you'll note that Phoenix Downs are a gameplay element ONLY, they do not exist outside the item shops and battle screens in FFVII, unlike FFV.

And while materia does exist in the plotline, the creators wanted her to die, the plot presumes you have no healing magic. Or perhaps the Cure spell only works on light scratches and they knew that, and knew it was pointless.

Or hey, maybe they tried them offscreen and it didn't work, or since Cloud knew she wanted to die he didn't bother, plenty of possible theories.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Malagigi: well that's a pretty unlikely assumption, don't you think?


Considering the last time I played Final Fantasy 7 was when I was 8(ish), I don't know for sure, but I was under the impression that Kadaj was an incomplete clone of Sephiroth, and the merge with Jenova perfected him into his intended form with some kind of genetic memory.

If that isn't the case, then I'd sure like to know the truth, myself.
That does work (as much as any other FFVII Science! works), but I think it's been officially stated that Kadaj & Co. had a more spiritual origin, and weren't Sephiroth knockoffs like Cloud or the numbered chaps from the game.


Or hey, maybe they tried them offscreen and it didn't work
That's my answer. No one has ever accused Final Fantasy VII of being coherently written. Well, no one I know.

[Setra]

Actually, you'll note that Phoenix Downs are a gameplay element ONLY, they do not exist outside the item shops and battle screens in FFVII, unlike FFV.

And while materia does exist in the plotline, the creators wanted her to die, the plot presumes you have no healing magic. Or perhaps the Cure spell only works on light scratches and they knew that, and knew it was pointless.

Or hey, maybe they tried them offscreen and it didn't work, or since Cloud knew she wanted to die he didn't bother, plenty of possible theories.

Also, for whomever said that it was actually 'Death' in battle, and not 'KO' in the original version... I don't think that is the case, because while they did censor the Death in the Dragon Quest games somewhat (ie. the characters are 'ghosts' in DQ3, instead of carrying around a casket), they were still shown to be dead.

One must wonder why they didn't just bring Ortega back to town and revive him. Oh is it because the creators never intended for gameplay related resurrection to work on anything but gameplay?

Edit: Whoops hit quote instead of edit.

[Cubey]

I believe they didn't try to raise Aeris via Phoenix Down or any other means because of:

Theory #1 (plausible but boring): They knew it won't help because she's dead too much for it to work. Just like in FF V, but with less obvious drama and more giving up-ness.

Theory #2 (morbidly amusing): Cloud and his merry friends were fed up with her clingy behaviour and they finally had a chance to get rid of her forever.

[Setra]

I believe they didn't try to raise Aeris via Phoenix Down or any other means because of:

Theory #1 (plausible but boring): They knew it won't help because she's dead too much for it to work. Just like in FF V, but with less obvious drama and more giving up-ness.

Theory #2 (morbidly amusing): Cloud and his merry friends were fed up with her clingy behaviour and they finally had a chance to get rid of her forever.
Theory #3 (Morbidly Amusing): Cloud was into necrophilia

[Cubey]

Well, assuming the whole Zack-Cloud deal...

[Khanderas]

All has been reviled.
So good it must have been a classic. Or is now.

[Triaxx]

According to official entry, as recorded in the Invisible Library of the University of Unlearned Rabbit Spiders, on the world with no name, in the galaxy that does not exist in the Undiscovered Country, as recorded by the Blind Bard of Vadelaus the Pheonix down works as follows:

'The feather of the Pheonix is held over the fatal/debiliatating wound, and cracked. The dust inside the feather falls, healing the wound and reviving/awakening the wounded.'

FFT is the only later game I know of that includes dead characters. They die permanently after 3 rounds.

[Setra]

FFT is the only later game I know of that includes dead characters. They die permanently after 3 rounds.
The only FF game or the only game?

Cause there are other games that have Permadeath, like Fire Emblem.

[TheOtherMC]

Better question: How does the FFT chemist throw a glass bottle at someone's face and it heals them?

Would you rather he be throwing around Ether?

[Thoughtbot360]

Better question: How does the FFT chemist throw a glass bottle at someone's face and it heals them?

Well, actually, its not just FFT chemists: its anybody who uses an item on another character. I mean, generally, the character do throw the item at the character (including throwing phoenix downs at KO'd people.) The most logical is when a non-chemist without the Throw Item support ability uses an item on somebody: the target must be adjacent to the character using the item. But even then, tapping someone on the shoulder and stuffing the potion into their mouth in the middle of a chaotic battle doesn't sound like a very good system.

[Blayze]

FFT is the only later game I know of that includes dead characters. They die permanently after 3 rounds.

FFTA. If a character dies in an area not protected by the Judges, they're gone for good.

[Thoughtbot360]

FFTA. If a character dies in an area not protected by the Judges, they're gone for good.

Yeah, I remember that game....those "laws" were so dumb. I mean, I guess they promote tactical diversity. But seriously, what the bloit (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLrk4J6hK0M), "attacks with Rod are illegal, but only for today, and we'll throw you in jail if you use them, or whatever attack/ability we outlaw tomorrow"?

[Triaxx]

Sorry, mis-type. Of the latter games of the series, after the change to 3D.

I refuse to acknowledge FFTA, considering it seems to have been designed by and for the mentally challenged. I broke mine with a sledge hammer. It made me feel better inside.

[Duke Malagigi]

Malagigi: well that's a pretty unlikely assumption, don't you think?

What is, the Discworld/Princess Bride/House worlds having portals to Final Fantasy VII's world or Cloud and friends acting rationly and listening to common sense and alternative ideas and opinions? Or is it both?

[Nerd-o-rama]

Well, the first one more so, but you have a point.

You know, I think I know why people like Sephiroth so much despite his sociopathy, genocidal tendencies, and complete and utter lack of redeeming features other than being pretty: the protagonists are at best badly written, and at worst total morons.

Man, forget this conversation, I'm gonna go play FFVI.

[Daze]

According to official entry, as recorded in the Invisible Library of the University of Unlearned Rabbit Spiders, on the world with no name, in the galaxy that does not exist in the Undiscovered Country, as recorded by the Blind Bard of Vadelaus the Pheonix down works as follows:

'The feather of the Pheonix is held over the fatal/debiliatating wound, and cracked. The dust inside the feather falls, healing the wound and reviving/awakening the wounded.'

LOL... best official entry ever.

I'd agree with how the phoenix is used though, seem right that youd crack it for some reason.

[Lord Shplane]

Well, the first one more so, but you have a point.

You know, I think I know why people like Sephiroth so much despite his sociopathy, genocidal tendencies, and complete and utter lack of redeeming features other than being pretty: the protagonists are at best badly written, and at worst total morons.

Man, forget this conversation, I'm gonna go play FFVI.

That's why I like him.

[Moongoat]

if your going to question the logic of FF then there other things you should question too. like, how come all the encounters are random. I mean how come I'm just walking around minding my own business when suddenly a giant monster pops up and seems very mad at me. also, how come when I kill a cute little fluffy bunny, it drop's a ginormous axe? i would also like to know how they keep there hair styled the same way all the time:smallconfused:

[Woot Spitum]

When it comes to sociopathic, genocidal tendencies: Kefka>Sephiroth.

[Sequinox]

Simple, really. Aliens have bring-back-to-life-guns and shoot dead bodies just as you use a phoenix down. Phoenix downs don't really work. And about Aeris (if that's how ya spell it) the aliens were gonns rez her... But they never used a phoenix down on her!!! :smalleek:

DUHN DUHN DUHN!!!! :elan:

[Laudandus]

Yeah, I remember that game....those "laws" were so dumb. I mean, I guess they promote tactical diversity. But seriously, what the bloit (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLrk4J6hK0M), "attacks with Rod are illegal, but only for today, and we'll throw you in jail if you use them, or whatever attack/ability we outlaw tomorrow"?

The worst part was when they outlawed attacking a certain kind of creature, and it was one of your enemies, so you had no choice but to give up.

[JadedDM]

Why didn't Cloud try to use a Phoenix Down on Aerith? Simple.

He's not made of Phoenix Downs. (http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=176)

[Setra]

The worst part was when they outlawed attacking a certain kind of creature, and it was one of your enemies, so you had no choice but to give up.
Um.. that's not true, if they outlawed attacking you could just use magic to kill it.

However sometimes battles would be rendered unwinnable, that is true.