Has Strahd been defeated before?

[Scryangi]

Would the characters be able to find out that killing him in his resting place is only step 1 before he inevitably is ressurected a few months later and TPK's the party in the epilogue?

I have a Knowledge cleric in the party that plays an oracle by gaining proficiency in Knowledge: Local and uses it to great effect to divine where to go next. She could find obscure information with this.

[Naanomi]

The only way to 'defeat' him ultimately would be to redeem him... Or corrupt him so thoroughly that he isn't interesting anymore. Otherwise the best hope is to escape (and maybe allow others to escape)

[Scryangi]

The only way to 'defeat' him ultimately would be to redeem him... Or corrupt him so thoroughly that he isn't interesting anymore. Otherwise the best hope is to escape (and maybe allow others to escape)

No, like Dracula from Castlevania there is an outside entity ressurecting him (and tormenting him by keeping him trapped in Barovia). There are several ways to deal with this. The easiest is to transfer the contract to someone else by offering the dark powers a more willing / suitable candidate.

[Kurt Kurageous]

Has he been defeated before? Short answer, probably yes. In my universe, no.

The whole thing repeats when he 'dies.' It's the same thing that happens to all souls, and my exemplar is Tatyana. Her nightmare repeats, or at least it repeats for her.

[Kurt Kurageous]

No, like Dracula from Castlevania there is an outside entity ressurecting him (and tormenting him by keeping him trapped in Barovia). There are several ways to deal with this. The easiest is to transfer the contract to someone else by offering the dark powers a more willing / suitable candidate.

I think there is only one who could convince Vampyr they would be Strahd's successor. If you know who it is, you know. I know. And they are not a PC.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Depends on how you want to run it. I haven't heard of Strahd getting a cheap kill on the party after their victory, and I'd avoid doing that regardless. It'll just annoy the players. The first time I ran CoS, I gave an epilogue where I let them know that he eventually returned. In subsequent games, I've run with the idea that Strahd has been defeated a few times before. But knowing this doesn't offer the party any way to stop the cycle, as the ability to stop the Dark Powers is completely beyond them.

There's a somewhat popular CoS supplement that adds a fight with Vampyr to permanently defeat Strahd, easily found on DM's Guild. Older 2e Ravenloft material implies only Strahd is capable of releasing Strahd, by accepting responsibility for his own wrongdoing. His condemnation is truly by his own hand.

I'm currently running it again for CoS veterans with the twist being that Strahd has recognized some of the extent of the cycle he's trapped in and is trying to end it by breaking the Dark Powers' rules- he's intentionally summoned the reincarnations of people he's wronged in the past (the party) to help him save Barovia, has painstakingly rebuilt the Apparatus from I10, and is planning on doing a mind swap once Barovia is cleansed of evil and thus everyone except Strahd is allowed to leave. It's going to backfire spectacularly due to his arrogance and rotten nature, but I like the idea that he's learning from his defeats and is getting really tired of it.

[Naanomi]

No, like Dracula from Castlevania there is an outside entity ressurecting him (and tormenting him by keeping him trapped in Barovia).
Right, and historically the Dark Powers only give up a target when they are completely redeemed or so thoroughly corrupt that there is no point in continuing the torment (a few exceptions do exist of course)

[Scryangi]

Has he been defeated before? Short answer, probably yes. In my universe, no.

The whole thing repeats when he 'dies.' It's the same thing that happens to all souls, and my exemplar is Tatyana. Her nightmare repeats, or at least it repeats for her.

Thank you for your response. I know everything repeats. What I want to know is if the players can hear of the mist having been lifted before or not. Can they learn that a Disney ending of the sun shining upon the land and everyone feeling hope for the first time in their life is just the prelude to him coming back, or do the people truly believe that Strahd dies when he gets killed?


Right, and historically the Dark Powers only give up a target when they are completely redeemed or so thoroughly corrupt that there is no point in continuing the torment (a few exceptions do exist of course)

Strahd is unruly and they would like a more willing and definitely a stronger puppet. Vampyr can only feed through his "champion". Whenever Strahd drains a person dead Vampyr can drink the soul. The entire system of Barovia is like a fishing net. Strahd gets the power to pull people into Barovia so he can feed on them and that way the dark powers can feed. If he would get killed they starve so they ressurect him but that seems to be a drain on them so they would rather their feeding tube doesn't die in the first place and thus would prefer a stronger champion.

[Amechra]

I'm pretty sure that no-one remembers the previous times that Strahd has been defeated, besides Strahd and maybe some non-Barovian scholars.

[KorvinStarmast]

Older 2e Ravenloft material implies only Strahd is capable of releasing Strahd, by accepting responsibility for his own wrongdoing. His condemnation is truly by his own hand. And unless the characters manage some amazing persuasion, probably not within the realm of the possible for most parties. Defeat of evil is only temporary, evil will arise again ... that's a very old trope.

(See Blizzard's Diablo game franchise for a similar take on that theme, of evil never being 'finally' defeated)

[Naanomi]

I'm pretty sure that no-one remembers the previous times that Strahd has been defeated, besides Strahd and maybe some non-Barovian scholars.
Some versions of the Vistani have them knowing things like that


Vampyr can only feed through his "champion".
I don't necessarily read Vampyr as a Dark Power; they are much more inscrutable than that. A manifestation or servant of, maybe, but not a Power itself

[Scryangi]

Some versions of the Vistani have them knowing things like that


I don't necessarily read Vampyr as a Dark Power; they are much more inscrutable than that. A manifestation or servant of, maybe, but not a Power itself

Oh? What versions are those?

Yeah, I guess you have a point about the distinction. "I, Strahd: The Memoirs of a Vampire" didn't really mention which dark powers he contracted. I think Vampyr is a modern addition and originally it were the Dark Powers.

[Naanomi]

Oh? What versions are those?
2e Vistani elders and seers were presented as being pretty knowledgeable about the Mists, the Dark Powers (as much as one can be), the various Domains... They were often the mouthpieces to players learning that kind of info

[Keravath]

Thank you for your response. I know everything repeats. What I want to know is if the players can hear of the mist having been lifted before or not. Can they learn that a Disney ending of the sun shining upon the land and everyone feeling hope for the first time in their life is just the prelude to him coming back, or do the people truly believe that Strahd dies when he gets killed?



Strahd is unruly and they would like a more willing and definitely a stronger puppet. Vampyr can only feed through his "champion". Whenever Strahd drains a person dead Vampyr can drink the soul. The entire system of Barovia is like a fishing net. Strahd gets the power to pull people into Barovia so he can feed on them and that way the dark powers can feed. If he would get killed they starve so they ressurect him but that seems to be a drain on them so they would rather their feeding tube doesn't die in the first place and thus would prefer a stronger champion.

There are a few things to keep in mind. The majority of the inhabitants are "figments" of Strahd's mind. Most of the people don't have souls and the entire plane is part of Strahd's consciousness even if he isn't aware of it. Look at the text about why he was able to raise the river level and flood the village of Berez as an example.

A few of the inhabitants have souls because these souls can't escape the Domain of Dread so they are eventually reborn into one of the people. One of these souls is Tatiana whom Strahd obsesses about over the centuries.

The entire place is run down. Few seem to have the will or interest to keep records. The people who lack souls likely don't have any ability to be aware that things could be otherwise. However, the Vistani may have some historical knowledge of brief periods when the mists disappear.

If, in fact, this has ever happened before. Strahd is a challenging opponent and in his boredom he may take greater and greater risks with adventurers until finally one group defeats him. The party could be that group. This is especially true since after being defeated Strahd might be more cautious with his play things. He might decide to take the special items and hide them so that they can't be found (though eventually the Dark Powers in the Amber temple will likely ensure that these items make their way into Barovia again since it is part of their curse on Strahd).

Anyway, the bottom line is that it would be up to you as DM whether any such information would be available in Barovia. My personal opinion, is that such knowledge would be rare or non-existent, only held by a specific group and since Strahd would NOT like folks knowing he may have been defeated in the past he would probably make sure anyone uttering such information doesn't survive. (Strahd's spies are everywhere). If it has happened before, I would think the Vistani are the ones most likely to know but it would be knowledge they share amongst themselves only when traveling and NOT when in Barovia.

Also, the knowledge may be available outside Barovia if some folks fled previously and recorded the knowledge but that depends on the person who fled knowing what caused the mists to not be deadly and being able to read and write that knowledge to record it. Also, since only the ones with souls can exist outside of Barovia, it isn't clear how many would actually leave when the mists thin and the sun shines.

[Unoriginal]

Would the characters be able to find out that killing him in his resting place is only step 1 before he inevitably is ressurected a few months later and TPK's the party in the epilogue?

I have a Knowledge cleric in the party that plays an oracle by gaining proficiency in Knowledge: Local and uses it to great effect to divine where to go next. She could find obscure information with this.

Strahd has been defeated many, many, many times. It's part of his curse, so people who know his legend probably know about it too.

That being said, the point of killing Strahd is that everyone can escape his Domain afterward. So he would not be able to TPK the PCs once he come back.

Not sure what Knowledge: Local is, though.


Right, and historically the Dark Powers only give up a target when they are completely redeemed or so thoroughly corrupt that there is no point in continuing the torment (a few exceptions do exist of course)

I thought the only way to escape them was to become horribly, painfully boring.

[Waterdeep Merch]

And unless the characters manage some amazing persuasion, probably not within the realm of the possible for most parties. Defeat of evil is only temporary, evil will arise again ... that's a very old trope.

(See Blizzard's Diablo game franchise for a similar take on that theme, of evil never being 'finally' defeated)

Oh, absolutely. I love the idea that Strahd could be free of his curse. But I'm against the idea of it ever happening. It makes for a compelling villain, one who's evil isn't a result of his situation, but the other way around.


Some versions of the Vistani have them knowing things like that


I don't necessarily read Vampyr as a Dark Power; they are much more inscrutable than that. A manifestation or servant of, maybe, but not a Power itself
Yeah, I really, really hate the idea of the vestiges in the Amber Temple being Dark Powers. I can accept them being part of the Dark Powers, but only because they've got this whole legion-vibe going on in sources like the original I, Strahd. Perhaps they were even more benevolent, once, before those vestiges joined the fold. That's fine. But for me, their core power should remain an indescribable, unknowable eldritch terror. Even when I have an answer as DM, their nature and motives should remain perfectly nebulous to the players.

[Unoriginal]

Oh, absolutely. I love the idea that Strahd could be free of his curse. But I'm against the idea of it ever happening. It makes for a compelling villain, one who's evil isn't a result of his situation, but the other way around.

To me, Strahd and the other Dark Lords are tormented by the Dark Powers because they are *not* going to ever change.

Strahd is stuck because he's Strahd, and he won't ever give up re-doing the same cycle again and again. He's too petty and nasty and single-minded to ever give up, or learn, or try to escape his prison.

[Scryangi]

Thank you all very much for the help you are giving.


Strahd has been defeated many, many, many times. It's part of his curse, so people who know his legend probably know about it too.

That being said, the point of killing Strahd is that everyone can escape his Domain afterward. So he would not be able to TPK the PCs once he come back.

Not sure what Knowledge: Local is, though.

So Strahd truly believes himself invincible yet trapped as he knows death isn't permanent for him.

Knowledge Local is from 3.5 and Pathfinder which we usualy play. It was knowing about one place such as who are the shakers and movers of Waterdeep, rumours, black markets, etc. It was dropped in 5e but I allow her to do creepy things like knowing people's names before she meets them or guiding the players to a bar. She likes getting DM notes and knowing things the rest of the party doesn't know unless she is willing to reveal them. The problem with Knowledge Local was that you would need a different proficiency for each locale but given that Knowledge Of The Ages gives her a floating proficiency she can play an "oracle".

[Naanomi]

I thought the only way to escape them was to become horribly, painfully boring.
Through the editions, I'm aware of four ways to escape.

1) Actually become redeemed and accept and overcome your Evils (thus becoming boring to the Dark Powers);

2) Grow so corrupt and bestial that your originally interesting flavor of Evil is just sort of generic cruelty and brutality now (thus becoming boring to the Dark Powers)

3) Figure out the game and refusing to engage in it for decades (thus becoming boring to the Dark Powers)

4) Have your off-world cult raise you to Godhood so you rocket off the Demiplane (thus infuriating the Dark Powers)

5*) At least one person made some headway with 'have powerful extra-planar allows attempt to jailbreak you' as well, but it didn't ultimately work (it is implied that it might have though)

6*) There are least a few entities that appear able to enter and leave the Demiplane of Dread (when that is what it was) at will. Both examples I know were powerful Evil entities with no interest in helping others escape

7*) Doors to Ravenloft to Sigil have been known, and it is surmised that even a Lord could leave through one... Not even the Dark Powers can deny the Lady of Pain her access

[Brookshw]

No, like Dracula from Castlevania there is an outside entity ressurecting him (and tormenting him by keeping him trapped in Barovia). There are several ways to deal with this. The easiest is to transfer the contract to someone else by offering the dark powers a more willing / suitable candidate.

Is that what they did in 5e? There were always ways to defeat dark lord's before :smallconfused: (always loved the time traveling mystery aspect of Castle Forlorn to defeat the lord myself)

[Unoriginal]

So Strahd truly believes himself invincible yet trapped as he knows death isn't permanent for him.

Well, not really invincible. He knows he can't be permanently destroyed, but he knows (as much as he loathes to admit it) that he can be foiled in accomplishing what he wants, which vanquishes him.

[Brookshw]

Well, not really invincible. He knows he can't be permanently destroyed, but he knows (as much as he loathes to admit it) that he can be foiled in accomplishing what he wants, which vanquishes him.

Ehhh...in I, Strahd he believes he can be defeated and surmises his defeat will release Barovia back to the Prime.

@Naanomi, (8) The Grand Conjunction allowed several dark lord's to escape, and would have freed all of them if Azalin didn't screw it up.

[da newt]

I'm no expert but I've always thought of it as Strahd has never succeeded - this is an endless do loop of him failing over and over again. If you just wait long enough, he'll defeat himself again - he always does.

[Unoriginal]

Ehhh...in I, Strahd he believes he can be defeated and surmises his defeat will release Barovia back to the Prime.

He can be defeated, and Barovia is released when it happens, but it's only temporary. He'll come back and Barovia will return to the state of being his prison.


I'm no expert but I've always thought of it as Strahd has never succeeded - this is an endless do loop of him failing over and over again. If you just wait long enough, he'll defeat himself again - he always does.

Indeed.

[Brookshw]

He can be defeated, and Barovia is released when it happens, but it's only temporary. He'll come back and Barovia will return to the state of being his prison.
.

That wasn't the position of that novel, and he could definitely be permanently defeated in other editions, though I can't say about the 5e module. There's a lot of inconsistency though, so pick your poison (I prefer your version that the dark lord's are stuck in their personal hells no matter what).

[Amechra]

Here's a way to think about it:

Barovia, like every Dread Domain, is fundamentally fake — Strahd is effectively locked in a simulation that exists entirely to torment him (because the Dark Powers think that he's a very special boy). When he comes back to life, it's not like he just gets back up — that's the Dark Powers resetting the simulation. As a result, you're not going to find any information recorded in Barovia about what happens when Strahd dies, unless that information lies with someone unbound by the Domain, like the Vistani.

I guess you could ask Strahd about it? I doubt he'd tell you, though.

[Naanomi]

(8) The Grand Conjunction allowed several dark lord's to escape, and would have freed all of them if Azalin didn't screw it up.
Also, I remember now...

9) You can be brought as a set of Dark Lords that were meant to torture eachother, but when the other one of the set somehow escapes the Dark Powers get bored with you and eject you from reality

[Brookshw]

Also, I remember now...

9) You can be brought as a set of Dark Lords that were meant to torture eachother, but when the other one of the set somehow escapes the Dark Powers get bored with you and eject you from reality

While I'm thinking about

(10) writers feud :smalltongue:

A'la, Lord Soth

[Naanomi]

While I'm thinking about

(10) writers feud :smalltongue:
That was #3 :smallbiggrin:

[thorr-kan]

Through the editions, I'm aware of four ways to escape.

1) Actually become redeemed and accept and overcome your Evils (thus becoming boring to the Dark Powers);

2) Grow so corrupt and bestial that your originally interesting flavor of Evil is just sort of generic cruelty and brutality now (thus becoming boring to the Dark Powers)

3) Figure out the game and refusing to engage in it for decades (thus becoming boring to the Dark Powers)

4) Have your off-world cult raise you to Godhood so you rocket off the Demiplane (thus infuriating the Dark Powers)

5*) At least one person made some headway with 'have powerful extra-planar allows attempt to jailbreak you' as well, but it didn't ultimately work (it is implied that it might have though)

6*) There are least a few entities that appear able to enter and leave the Demiplane of Dread (when that is what it was) at will. Both examples I know were powerful Evil entities with no interest in helping others escape

7*) Doors to Ravenloft to Sigil have been known, and it is surmised that even a Lord could leave through one... Not even the Dark Powers can deny the Lady of Pain her access
OK, I'll bite.
1 is ?
2 is?
3 is Soth.
4 is Vecna.
5 is ?
6 is ?
7 is probably True. (I have in my head some greater god, buffing their Chosen and sending said Chosen into Sigil to treat with the Lady of Pain. "Look, follow the rules I gave you, and BE POLITE. You are not her peer; *I* am not her peer. I need this information, and if you piss her off, *I can't save you.*")

[Naanomi]

OK, I'll bite.
1 is ?
2 is?
3 is Soth.
4 is Vecna.
5 is ?
6 is ?
I can't cite a specific example of #1, but the concept is brought up in virtually every edition of Ravenloft as something that has rarely happened before

#2 is the backstory of some Demon lord I will try to find the name of later

#3 is Lord Soth

#4 and #5 are Vecna (heros in an adventure stopped #5 from working)

#6 had been mentioned in the backstory of Baernoloth and Nupperibo (Baernoloth and Ancient Baatorians have been hinted at being possible true identities of the Dark Powers in Magazine articles)

#9 is Kas the Bloodyhanded



#7 is probably True. (I have in my head some greater god, buffing their Chosen and sending said Chosen into Sigil to treat with the Lady of Pain. "Look, follow the rules I gave you, and BE POLITE. You are not her peer; *I* am not her peer. I need this information, and if you piss her off, *I can't save you.*")
At best this ends with someone Mazed

[Amechra]

Actually, is there any evidence that the Lady of Pain's obscene levels of power actually extends outside of her Dark Domain Sigil?

[thorr-kan]

Thank you! Despite my appreciation for the setting, Ravenloft is not one of my primary fandoms.


At best this ends with someone Mazed
Nah, best case the Chosen obeys the rules, gets some cryptic response from the dabbos, and hoofs it out of Sigil.

SECOND best case is Mazed. :smallcool: Outcomes after that get logarithm-atically worse.

ObOnTopic: I don't think the Lady is a Dark Power. But based on the Vecna trilogy, her autonomy, and vague refences to the Serpent and others of its ilk, I think she might be a *peer* to the Dark Powers.

Maybe...a Grey Power? who inflicts her domain on herself in the interests of balance. That posits the existence of Light Powers and realms that are as hopeful as Ravenloft is hopeless. That theory goes back to at least 1992, USENET, and alt.pub.dragons-inn newsgroup. Swanloft, I think was the term...

[Naanomi]

Actually, is there any evidence that the Lady of Pain's obscene levels of power actually extends outside of her Dark Domain Sigil?
Her personal power? No, we essentially never see her flex her muscle outside of Sigil. Her absolutely unchallengeable power to open a portal from Sigil to anywhere in the Great Wheel (and at least a few places beyond, if not everywhere beyond)... that can of course effect beyond her borders
Given what we know about her, I have to imagine the Lady is some sort of cosmological being that may be related to the Eldest that created the Great Wheel; or a being that predates the Great Wheel. The Dark Powers, while mysterious and powerful, feel like a great deal lower significance than she is to me. Of course, portrayals vary even in cannon material

[Amechra]

The reason why I'm going "hey, wait a minute here" is that her unstoppable ability/right to make her portals wherever she pleases and to bar all other powers from her city feels an awful lot like the Dark Powers' ability/right to have the mists rise up and transport people to the Demiplane of Dread... where, if I remember correctly, deities have trouble interfering.

[georgie_leech]

The reason why I'm going "hey, wait a minute here" is that her unstoppable ability/right to make her portals wherever she pleases and to bar all other powers from her city feels an awful lot like the Dark Powers' ability/right to have the mists rise up and transport people to the Demiplane of Dread... where, if I remember correctly, deities have trouble interfering.

The difference being, there are other things that can interfere with divine magic so that deities can't directly help, but only one thing off the top of my head that means that deities won't help.

[Naanomi]

Yeah Gods (or other similarly powerful beings) have a real hard time poking their nose into the Domain of Dread. (Actually Outsiders don't do well at all there for the most part, even planetouched are immensely uncomfortable)

They probably could poke their head into Sigil if they really wanted to, but it would just be instantly fatal.