[3.5] Stump Knife Build

[Thurbane]

So, the Stump Knife is an interesting exotic weapon in A&EG.

It's essentially a punching dagger that is strapped to the character, and gets an increased crit range of 17-20 during a "continuous melee" (however you want to parse that, I guess). That should stack with standard crit increases, I believe.

How would one build around it?

It's light, so no power attacking etc. Sneak Attack may be best options. Crit-fishing + Telling Blow, maybe? TWF? Manoeuvres?

Note: character will have a missing forelimb!

My usual sources apply: no PF, no 3rd party, no Kalamar, no Ravenloft, no Dragonlance (except campaign setting), preferably no Dragon Mag (except compendium), no Artificer, no Psionics, no Incarnum, no generic UA classes...

Unsure yet if it would be for a PC I might run, or for an NPC build.

No idea of the level range, but I like to work around ECL 9 or so.

Cheers - T

[Wintermoot]

So, the Stump Knife is an interesting exotic weapon in A&EG.

It's essentially a punching dagger that is strapped to the character, and gets an increased crit range of 17-20 during a "continuous melee" (however you want to parse that, I guess). That should stack with standard crit increases, I believe.

How would one build around it?

It's light, so no power attacking etc. Sneak Attack may be best options. Crit-fishing + Telling Blow, maybe? TWF? Manoeuvres?

Note: character will have a missing forelimb!

My usual sources apply: no PF, no 3rd party, no Kalamar, no Ravenloft, no Dragonlance (except campaign setting), preferably no Dragon Mag (except compendium), no Artificer, no Incarnum, no generic UA classes...

Unsure yet if it would be for a PC I might run, or for an NPC build.

No idea of the level range, but I like to work around ECL 9 or so.

Cheers - T

Absolutely a crit fisher, especially if you are going to stack it with other critical range extenders. I'm seeing a Thri-Keen with four keen stump knives and a big eyepatch leaping around with a flanking buddy and going to town.

[Anthrowhale]

Light weapon implies eligible for Snowtiger Berserker based pounce and Disciple of Dispater 8 can greatly increase the crit range.

[Jervis]

Like people said above disciple of dispater 8 explicitly stacks with improved critical for a crit threat range of 8-20 at level 12ish. Thri-Kreen 2 (+1 LA too), fighter 4, DoD 8 for ECL 13. Multi-weapon fighting, improved critical, that’s 4 weapons (3 if you want a actual hand like a weirdo) each with a threat range of 8-20. This isn’t a complete build. I would probably take a level of Barbarian for pounce in place of a fighter level.

[Saintheart]

A parsimonious reading might conclude that the threat range of the weapon overrules all other added bonuses, i.e. it's a flat 17-20. That's certainly more in line with how other oddball big-crit-range weapons in 3.0 and 3.5 tended to rule it.

That said, just to cover the bases: keen would presumably apply to this.

So base range after the first hit: 17-20
Keen or Improved Critical: 13-20.
Iron Power 1 from DoD: depends whether you rule that Iron Power extends the base threat range or the overall threat range. If the base, it's 9-20. If overall, it's a ludicrous 5-20 and you don't even need the second Iron Power upgrade at the end of DoD. This isn't clear because DoD is a 3.0 class, and that edition was more amenable to range-stacking effects like letting Keen + Improved Critical count together.

Do you optimise the critical multiplier? The most obvious option depends on whether you want DoD or not, Kaorti Resin gives you a x4 crit multiplier but isn't composed of iron or steel, therefore DoD won't work with it. That said, because the multiplier is x2, it makes sense to invest in critical confirmation options if you're going to push it to x3 or higher. It may work just as well to go for weapon sizing or weight shenanigans; get the weapon to 1d8 and the "expected" damage is double that of the 1d4, i.e. you've sort of got an inherent x2 to the multiplier right there.

For completeness: always consider the de rigeur Lightning Mace aptitude weapons trick.

In terms of debuffing effects alongside: Staggering Critical, no-save Slow effect on a target when you crit it. Best single-feat option I've seen outside Lightning Mace for effects that trigger on criticals.

[AvatarVecna]

For high-level crit-fishing, one thing I don't see mentioned very much is the Hero's Blade spell:


Necromancy
Level: Deathless (ECS) 9, Revered Ancestor (FE) 9,
Components: V, DF,
Casting Time: 1 Standard Action
Range: Touch
Target: Melee weapon touched
Duration: 1min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless, object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless, object)

You channel the spirit of a mighty elf hero of old into a melee weapon. For the duration of the spell, the weapon gains the following benefits.

The weapon deals an extra 2d6 points of damage to evil creatures, or an extra 2d8 points of damage to evil outsiders and undead. On a critical hit, the weapon deals an extra 2d10 points of damage to evil creatures or an extra 2d12 points of damage to evil outsiders and undead. (Against undead, the weapon damage is not multiplied on a critical hit, but the undead creature still takes increased damage from this effect. Other creatures immune to extra damage from critical hits do not take extra damage from this effect.)

The weapon becomes good-aligned, allowing it to overcome the damage reduction of certain evil creatures.

The weapon's threat range doubles, as though it were affected by a keen edge spell (this does not stack with the benefit of the keen special ability or the keen edge spell, but does stack with the benefit of the Improved Critical feat).
When it scores a critical hit against an evil foe, the weapon blinds and deafens the opponent for 1d4 rounds (a successful Will save negates the blindness). Spell resistance applies to this effect.

When the weapon scores a critical hit against an evil extraplanar creature, the creature must make a successful Will save or be instantly banished back to its home plane. A creature so banished cannot return for at least 24 hours.

Spell resistance applies to this effect.

While best for crit-fishing against evil creatures (particularly evil outsiders/undead), the primary benefit we're here for isn't alignment-gated, which is the "double crit threat range, stacking with Improved Critical". If you interpret this as being able to stack with Disciple Of Dispater as well (neither calls out all non-"Improved Critical" crit-boosts as not-stacking)...


Iron Power (Ex): When using an iron or steel weapon, a 4th-level disciple of Dispater gains a +1 insight bonus on attack and damage rolls. Furthermore, his threat range is doubled as if he were using a keen weapon. At 8th level, the insight bonus improves to +2, and the threat range triples. This ability does not stack with the keen weapon quality, but it does stack with the Improved Critical feat.

...then you've got 100% crit threat base, +100% Improved Critical, +100% Hero's Blade, and +200% Iron Power, for a total of 500% your normal crit threat range. Since your normal range is four points...that would be 20 points. That's a 1-20 crit threat range. Technically, you don't threaten a critical if you miss, so a nat 1 would still be a miss, but still!

EDIT: If you go Kaorti Resin, you can't benefit from Iron Power anymore, so that would "only" be 300% crit threat range, or 12 points, or 9-20/x4. Up to you whether that sounds better than 1-20/x2.

[Anthrowhale]

My understanding is that all multipliers apply to the base range with the multiplication-is-addition rule. Using that you get a crit range of 2 x(1+1(stump knife)+1(Improved critical)+2(Iron Power 2)) giving an 11-20/x2 crit?

[Thurbane]

Not sure of official rules, but at our table, the 17-20 crit range would be treated as the base range, and Improved Crit/Keen, DoD, etc would all build on that range (with normal stacking rules otherwise, so IC and Keen would not stack).

[SpicyBoi_Nezu]

You can either optimize the crit range, or number of attacks

Crit Range: Disciple of Dispater 8+Improved critical nets you a 4-20 crit range (Keep in mind you still have to beat their ac, crit doesn't always mean hit, unless it's a nat 20) which pairs well if you can slap some Kaorti resin on to drive that crit mod to x4.

Number of attacks: Two weapon fighting + Blood Claw Master is all you want, make sure to pick up Blood in the water and aim for Raging Mongoose. Haste, Belt of battle, surprise rounds, anything to grab as many actions as possible, maybe drop a level in Totem of the Lion Barbarian to get pounce, which really helps at early levels, and still works late game.

[Saintheart]

My understanding is that all multipliers apply to the base range with the multiplication-is-addition rule. Using that you get a crit range of 2 x(1+1(stump knife)+1(Improved critical)+2(Iron Power 2)) giving an 11-20/x2 crit?

I haven't seen anywhere that order of application is set in stone. Rules Compendium doesn't cover it. Most of the time it's silent; only late in 3.5 they started to say "add this critical threat range increase last, after all other modifiers have been put on." Sunyarta Patron in Squire of Legend, that sort of stuff. As far as I can see it only goes as far as 'double of a double is a triple', and that was more about critical multipliers or doubled damage under mounted charges with lances - not about threat range.

And A&EG doesn't help us out there. It says the weapon's threat range becomes 17-20 (from the default 19-20 the table sets out).



Also, Hero's Blade + DoD has a strong probability of airborne DMGs. Hero's Blade is aimed at evil outsiders, and you're a Disciple of Dispater who has to be of an evil alignment to qualify. You could be the kind of disciple who is jealous of other outsiders, I guess.

[AvatarVecna]

Also, Hero's Blade + DoD has a strong probability of airborne DMGs.

That is definitely true. Not that most DMs would be very approving of super-crit-fishing shenanigans like this regardless, even if "more damage" isnt exactly the most broken thing in the world...but yeah that particular aspect is a bit strange. :smalltongue:

[Zarvistic]

I haven't seen anywhere that order of application is set in stone. Rules Compendium doesn't cover it. Most of the time it's silent; only late in 3.5 they started to say "add this critical threat range increase last, after all other modifiers have been put on." Sunyarta Patron in Squire of Legend, that sort of stuff. As far as I can see it only goes as far as 'double of a double is a triple', and that was more about critical multipliers or doubled damage under mounted charges with lances - not about threat range.
RAW no, but RAI? It seems pretty clear how all multiplying in the game is suppose to work from the way doubling twice works and stuff like maximize + empower spell for example. You simply multiply the base value, probably like the majority of all types of games do I think.

[AvatarVecna]

RAW no, but RAI? It seems pretty clear how all multiplying in the game is suppose to work from the way doubling twice works and stuff like maximize + empower spell for example. You simply multiply the base value, probably like the majority of all types of games do I think.

There's actually pretty clear RAW on how multipliers stack, it's just that people mostly look at examples rather than the original rules text on multipliers.

SRD Link (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#multiplying)


Sometimes a rule makes you multiply a number or a die roll. As long as you’re applying a single multiplier, multiply the number normally. When two or more multipliers apply to any abstract value (such as a modifier or a die roll), however, combine them into a single multiple, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. Thus, a double (×2) and a double (×2) applied to the same number results in a triple (×3, because 2 + 1 = 3).

When applying multipliers to real-world values (such as weight or distance), normal rules of math apply instead. A creature whose size doubles (thus multiplying its weight by 8) and then is turned to stone (which would multiply its weight by a factor of roughly 3) now weighs about 24 times normal, not 10 times normal. Similarly, a blinded creature attempting to negotiate difficult terrain would count each square as 4 squares (doubling the cost twice, for a total multiplier of ×4), rather than as 3 squares (adding 100% twice).

Distance is a real-world value, so it multiplies as normal. Damage is not a real-world value, so it multiplies additively (that is to say, "x2" is actually "+100%", so two "x2" is "+200%", and is thus "x3" rather than "x4".

Critical threat range is not a real-world value, so it multiplies the way damage does. That is to say, if the base range is 18-20, and you somehow find two "crit threat range x2" that are allowed to stack together, they are "x3" rather than "x4". It's pretty clear.

(Also, the rule about how Maximize and Empower stack is unrelated to how multipliers stack, and separately has to be an exception to how metamagic-stacking works, otherwise all metamagic-stacking ends up being stupid nonsense. But I'm not going to go on a rant about that because it's unrelated to this thread.)

[Saintheart]

RAW no, but RAI? It seems pretty clear how all multiplying in the game is suppose to work from the way doubling twice works and stuff like maximize + empower spell for example. You simply multiply the base value, probably like the majority of all types of games do I think.

RAI differs table by table, and necessarily means there is no clear rule on it. And it gets even more complicated when you start combining non-critical hit doubling effects to it.

What's the multiplier for a Valorous lance, made of kaorti resin, wielded by a guy wearing Riding Boots, who makes and confirms a critical hit while mounted with it on a charge?

EDIT: The other issue being that WOTC didn't nail down entirely what they mean by "threat range", or at least didn't make it abundantly clear in all cases. Is it the weapon's base threat range, or the adjusted threat range? That's an open issue. For example, getting us back to the original subject: what is the Stump Knife's critical threat? Does your Keen effect stack on the conditional 17-20, or is it absorbed by it?

[Zarvistic]

I was thinking RAI as in, even if the books never explained multiplying at all, you could guess exactly how it works because that's how most games work anyway and it's really pretty simply: just apply stuff to base value. Doesn't have to be more complex than that I feel.

[Anthrowhale]

What's the multiplier for a Valorous lance, made of kaorti resin, wielded by a guy wearing Riding Boots, who makes and confirms a critical hit while mounted with it on a charge?

Lance: x2
Valorous: x2
Riding Boots: x2
Spirited Charge: x2
Kaorti Resin critical hit: x4

Total damage multiplier: x(1+2-1+2-1+4-1+2-1+2-1)=x8



EDIT: The other issue being that WOTC didn't nail down entirely what they mean by "threat range", or at least didn't make it abundantly clear in all cases. Is it the weapon's base threat range, or the adjusted threat range? That's an open issue. For example, getting us back to the original subject: what is the Stump Knife's critical threat? Does your Keen effect stack on the conditional 17-20, or is it absorbed by it?

My understanding is that it stacks.
Stump Knife base threat range: 2 (i.e. 19-20)
keen: x2
after wounding in continuous melee: x2

Total threat range: 2*(1+2-1+2-1)=6 (i.e. 15-20)