Spider-Man: No Way Home - New Trailer

[Palanan]

Hoo boy.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYzbalQ6Lg8



This might just be the first movie I see in a theater in nearly two years.

[Ramza00]

Oh, I like the twist. Good for him!

[Kareeah_Indaga]

…I might have to get my ticket in advance for this one. Really hope it lives up to its promise!

EDIT:



Dr. Octavious
Green Goblin
Sandman
Electro (now in yellow!)
Lizard




…did I miss anyone?

[Psyren]

…did I miss anyone?

From the trailer, no - but presumably Venom is going to get in on these shenanigans at some point. Oh hey, magic number.

[Tvtyrant]

Finally the Spiderman Cinematic Universe.

[Rater202]

That I want a fight between Tom Hardy Venom and Topher Grace Venom?

[Anteros]

This looks...really good. And I say that as someone burned out on the MCU and who doesn't really like their Spider-man.

It's fairly obvious that Toby Mcguire and Andrew Garfield Spideys are supposed to be in that last shot but have been edited out.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Anteros
This looks...really good. And I say that as someone burned out on the MCU….

Same here. This could be the movie that relights my almost-smothered enthusiasm.

I'm thinking MJ falls, Pete can't catch her...and another Spider-Man makes the save. Possibly Andrew Garfield.

[KillianHawkeye]

That I want a fight between Tom Hardy Venom and Topher Grace Venom?

I didn't until JUST NOW. :smallbiggrin:

[ben-zayb]

I so badly wanted to see this in theaters but unfortunately will most likely end up waiting for Disney+ instead all things considered.

was there a hooded (non-masked) Green Goblin in that trailer? I can't tell if it's supposed to be DeHaan's or Franco's.

Also, in one scene, Electro looks like he's attacking Doc Ock, and the latter wasn't in the final showdown scene. Considering that scene with Ned and MJ, it makes me wonder if Otto isn't really a full villain in this movie. It would make sense for his character too.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

That I want a fight between Tom Hardy Venom and Topher Grace Venom?

I’m going to say no, it’s not bad. I expect if it happens it will be a short fight though. :smallbiggrin: My headcanon right now is that the black suit we’ve seen is THE black suit, with Peter borrowing the Tom Hardy Venom symbiote and getting various other bits and pieces from his other allies.




Also, in one scene, Electro looks like he's attacking Doc Ock, and the latter wasn't in the final showdown scene. Considering that scene with Ned and MJ, it makes me wonder if Otto isn't really a full villain in this movie. It would make sense for his character too.



It would not only fit his Sam Raimi 2 characterization, but there’s at least one videogame wherein Doc Ock helps Peter make equipment for Spider-man, so there’s previous precedent there too. Add to that the whole premise is that these people died and he has already willingly sacrificed himself once…

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by ben-zayb
Considering that scene with Ned and MJ, it makes me wonder if Otto isn't really a full villain in this movie. It would make sense for his character too.

Definitely had that vibe, and it's got my vote.

[Psyren]

I so badly wanted to see this in theaters but unfortunately will most likely end up waiting for Disney+ instead all things considered.


You have my condolences for your impending spoiler/meme dodges online.


This looks...really good. And I say that as someone burned out on the MCU and who doesn't really like their Spider-man.


Same here. This could be the movie that relights my almost-smothered enthusiasm.

And this is why they won't be dying anytime soon :smallamused: :smallamused:


It's fairly obvious that Toby Mcguire and Andrew Garfield Spideys are supposed to be in that last shot but have been edited out.


I'm thinking MJ falls, Pete can't catch her...and another Spider-Man makes the save. Possibly Andrew Garfield.

Agreed on both counts. That last part especially would be so clutch!

[Eldan]

Okay, but can they stop giving Spider-Man more advanced armor? He's kind of not supposed to be Iron Man 2.

[Ramza00]

Peter can have gadgets, but no armor please. Stuff Peter manipulates with his hands, and sometimes accidentally breaks at key moments, not a second skin please.

[Psyren]

I definitely think it's time for the Iron Spider to get broken beyond repair.

With that said, Iron Spider vs. S6 is a fight I wouldn't mind seeing. Usually Peter has needed outside help taking all of them on.

[Wintermoot]

Dunno why everyone assumes MJ will be saved from the fall. Spiderman in comics and movies has a long history of being motivated by the death of a girlfriend via fall.

Haven't had a good fridging for hero motivation in positively weeks. Classic for the win.

I'm pretty sure I saw mysterio in some preview or another. It could've been a flashback or a memory or a dream or something, but otherwise, there's your sixth member of the sinister six without needing Venom of any variety.

[GentlemanVoodoo]

Kind of mixed on this.

On the one hand the overall premise seems to be interesting of what they are setting up for future marvel movies. But at the same time it seems this is just a tale of accepting consequences as they come versus personal desires and dealing with the after effects. Nothing wrong with the set up but the execution of what is shown is a bit meh. Also that has pretty much been the thing with every Spider-Man movie made which I was hoping for something different at least. Further it is a give away they are going to have to go on a macguffin fetch quest so not all that excited for this. Also I would like to see more of a Peter focus story. Having the support characters of Ned and MJ around just makes me less interested. But then again never cared for Zendaya's take on MJ and Ned was never that interesting of a character, even as comic relief IMHO. Jacob Batalon however is showing to be a promising actor which I hope this can catapult his career as being more than the comic relief.

Seems as such several classic actors are returning such as Alfred Molina (Doc Oct), William Dafoe (Green Goblin, from how the voice sounded sounded) and looked to appear that Thomas Haden Church from one of the last screenshots (as Sandman) and J.K. Simmons (as J. Jonah Jameson). So that is not a bad thing. At the same time I'm not excited to see Jamie Foxx as Electro because I never thought he was a good actor for the character to begin with.

I am also not surprised to see black suit Spider-Man again. Has me wondering however if this version of Venom is just going to have an actual personality like in the stand alone films or just be evil plot device like it was in Spider-Man 3? I surmise Peter will be getting it as a replacement for the Iron Man armor then something happens to where he has to rely on himself. Nothing bad in that regard as we could see this take on Peter finally stand on his own.

In all interest is peaked which this may be one of the better Spider-Man movies in the recent years. But I'm not going to go rush out and see this immediately.

[KillianHawkeye]

J.K. Simmons (as J. Jonah Jameson)

He was already shown at the end of Spider-Man Far From Home. He's the one who outed Peter's identity with the doctored footage from Mysterio.

[Ramza00]

Dunno why everyone assumes MJ will be saved from the fall. Spiderman in comics and movies has a long history of being motivated by the death of a girlfriend via fall.

Haven't had a good fridging for hero motivation in positively weeks. Classic for the win.

No it is not a long history!

The Night Gwen Stacey Died, often called the start of the Bronze Age of comics occurred in 1973. (Others cite the 1971 revised comic code revision which is different than the 1954 version, the switch from Silver Age to Bronze Age was gradual, but the trend is obvious if you do some comparative styles) ... and after that key Spider-Man comic we see lots of girlfriends and other loved ones die to create "spectacle" and an artificial form of male pathos of the hero. It got so bad that 1999 Gail Simone, comic book writer, launched the Women in Refrigerators (or WiR) website in 1999. [ while Spiderman started this trope, and lots of other heroes have similar events that followed. Gail was referencing a 1994 Green Lantern story when she named the trope ]

And this "trope" is less common than it used to be since that time. We are talking about 48 years of comic history in other words, and "fridging" as you yourself referenced Wintermoot has not been a constant during that time.

It is a trope that needs to die, for all the reasons that was listed in the 1999 website and the following year after where many newspapers and so on talked about that article.

[Wintermoot]

No it is not a long history!

The Night Gwen Stacey Died, often called the start of the Bronze Age of comics occurred in 1973. ... We are talking about 48 years of comic history in other words, ...


So.... 48 years isn't a long history? What... uh.. what would you consider a long history? Spiderman started in.. 63 right. So the "history" exists for 5/6th of the characters entire lifeline... seems pretty long to me. Not really sure what your issue with calling it a long history is.



It is a trope that needs to die, for all the reasons that was listed in the 1999 website and the following year after where many newspapers and so on talked about that article.


Yes. I agree. I'm sorry if my sarcasm wasn't clear to you in my post.

[Dire_Flumph]

Just got around to seeing this, my hopes weren't initially high, but having ##### actually be a character in the story rather than one of a series of endless fanservice cameo fights? You have my interest.

[Ramza00]

So.... 48 years isn't a long history? What... uh.. what would you consider a long history? Spiderman started in.. 63 right. So the "history" exists for 5/6th of the characters entire lifeline... seems pretty long to me. Not really sure what your issue with calling it a long history is.

Most of Spider-Man’s history, his 4094 total comic appearances (not counting clones or alternate universes) are not about Gwen Stacey, her death, or another “fridged love one”, an event happened but his lore is ineffably more vast than one single beat.

Likewise the same with comics in general and that is why I put it context with greater history and how it was more common (but still uncommon) in a specific era, and we have mostly moved on from it now. Why shouldn’t the movies move on from it now? Do you really want to see a teenager die again? You say you are being sarcastic but some of us are tired of this empty spectacle and trope. I would start cursing (but board rules) to signify how some of us are tired of it!

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Dunno why everyone assumes MJ will be saved from the fall. Spiderman in comics and movies has a long history of being motivated by the death of a girlfriend via fall.

I figure she'll make it just because they're advertising the fall. If I had to guess at who is most likely to die in this one...


...I'd say it's Aunt May. That scene she's in looks an awful lot like the one where Peter's trying to catch an exploding pumpkin bomb.

[ben-zayb]

I figure she'll make it just because they're advertising the fall. If I had to guess at who is most likely to die in this one...


...I'd say it's Aunt May. That scene she's in looks an awful lot like the one where Peter's trying to catch an exploding pumpkin bomb.

My money is on Peter failing to save Ned, though it would eventually be revealed as a fakeout and will lead to Hobgoblin becoming the next villain. That's assuming there's a part 4, though.

Or Peter fails to save both of them, and Aunt May dies for real.

[Psyren]

My money is on Peter failing to save Ned, though it would eventually be revealed as a fakeout and will lead to Hobgoblin becoming the next villain. That's assuming there's a part 4, though.

Or Peter fails to save both of them, and Aunt May dies for real.

Wouldn't Aunt May dying just lead to another spell? :smallbiggrin:

[Clertar]

Wouldn't Aunt May dying just lead to another spell? :smallbiggrin:

We all know what Aunt May dying leads to. And (some) people have been demanding that since WandaVision :smalltongue:

[ben-zayb]

Wouldn't Aunt May dying just lead to another spell? :smallbiggrin:It would turn out Norman Osborn just hired Marisa Tomei to pretend as Aunt May. She was so convincing in her portrayal that Peter really thought it was her Aunt May who died instead of Tomei.

[Androgeus]

It would turn out Norman Osborn just hired Marisa Tomei to pretend as Aunt May. She was so convincing in her portrayal that Peter really thought it was her Aunt May who died instead of Tomei.

If Marvel honestly went with a Ocean's 12 style both the actor and character exist plot point, I'll have a new favourite movie.

[Eldan]

We all know what Aunt May dying leads to. And (some) people have been demanding that since WandaVision :smalltongue:

I mean...

Maybe Aunt May dies, Strange declines to cast another spell for Peter to change that, and so he goes to find another spellcaster , Wanda has that book now...

[Velaryon]

I'm both interested and concerned with this. This movie looks really overstuffed to me, and although all the individual pieces look good I worry about their ability to combine well in the runtime of a single movie. Spider-verse and Sinister Six in one movie is asking a LOT.

Speaking of which, the animated Spider-verse film was just a couple years ago, did we really need that in a movie again already?

Ah well, I hope it's good, and I hope it's not the last of the Tom Holland Spider-Man movies.

[Anteros]

I'm both interested and concerned with this. This movie looks really overstuffed to me, and although all the individual pieces look good I worry about their ability to combine well in the runtime of a single movie. Spider-verse and Sinister Six in one movie is asking a LOT.

Speaking of which, the animated Spider-verse film was just a couple years ago, did we really need that in a movie again already?

Ah well, I hope it's good, and I hope it's not the last of the Tom Holland Spider-Man movies.

That's just kinda how the MCU does things in general though. They're less "intricate and well laid plot lines" and more "let's just throw everything at the wall and see what sticks!" It works for them because they're not the type of movies you want to think too hard about.

[Dragonus45]

Dunno why everyone assumes MJ will be saved from the fall. Spiderman in comics and movies has a long history of being motivated by the death of a girlfriend via fall.

Haven't had a good fridging for hero motivation in positively weeks. Classic for the win.

I'm pretty sure I saw mysterio in some preview or another. It could've been a flashback or a memory or a dream or something, but otherwise, there's your sixth member of the sinister six without needing Venom of any variety.

Gwen Stacy dies when she falls, MJ gets saved. It's like clockwork. Also, imagine the ****ing screeching that would ensue on the internet if they killed off Zendaya.

[Clertar]

Spider-verse and Sinister Six in one movie is asking a LOT.

Speaking of which, the animated Spider-verse film was just a couple years ago [...]?



Wasn't that movie precisely Spider-verse and the Sinister Six (and also introduced Miles Morales)? :smallbiggrin:

[Sapphire Guard]

Just smells like a giant ball of fanservice. Pass.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Also, imagine the ****ing screeching that would ensue on the internet if they killed off Zendaya.

I am abruptly wanting to see them kill her off, then bring her back as an evil supervillain from an alternate universe.

[Delicious Taffy]

Speaking of which, the animated Spider-verse film was just a couple years ago, did we really need that in a movie again already?
This is a sentiment I've been seeing a lot, lately. Spider-verse doesn't really need to be the default state of Spider-Man media. Heck, the darn near obsession with it has even leaked into the Power Rangers comics, what with the whole Shattered Grid storyline. Too much of a good thing can get old.

[GloatingSwine]

This is a sentiment I've been seeing a lot, lately. Spider-verse doesn't really need to be the default state of Spider-Man media. Heck, the darn near obsession with it has even leaked into the Power Rangers comics, what with the whole Shattered Grid storyline. Too much of a good thing can get old.

I don't think you can reasonably blame Spider-Verse for that given that they did their ultimate every-team-ever crossover literally the same month the Spider-Verse comic started (and it was based on the Super Sentai 35th anniversary movie from 3 years before that).

[The Glyphstone]

We won't hit peak Spiderverse until they give us a big screen portrayal of Japanese Spider-man (The Emissary From Hell!) and his giant mecha Leopardon...

[Anteros]

I mean, "what if there was more than one Spiderman" is a story that's been around with different variations since the 70s at least. It's one of his more common recurring stories. Also there are way too many Spider people in comics as a result.

[Psyren]

We won't hit peak Spiderverse until they give us a big screen portrayal of Japanese Spider-man (The Emissary From Hell!) and his giant mecha Leopardon...

While that would be cool, we'd probably just end up with a modern update of that character, which would just lead us back to Peni Parker :smalltongue:

[The Glyphstone]

While that would be cool, we'd probably just end up with a modern update of that character, which would just lead us back to Peni Parker :smalltongue:

Peni is cool, don't get me wrong, but she's still no Takuya. Heck, I'd settle for a Spiderverse 2 cameo where someone makes an off-hand comment about Spiderpeople who were just too weird to recruit, even for a team that includes Peter Porker.

[Psyren]

Peni is cool, don't get me wrong, but she's still no Takuya.

No argument here.

[Delicious Taffy]

I don't think you can reasonably blame Spider-Verse for that given that they did their ultimate every-team-ever crossover literally the same month the Spider-Verse comic started (and it was based on the Super Sentai 35th anniversary movie from 3 years before that).
We don't need to talk about the Super Megaforce "Legendary" War. It was a pale imitation of the Sentai version. But I wasn't really "blaming" anything on anything else.

[ben-zayb]

Wasn't Takuya and Leopardon already canon in the comics anyway?

Also, yeah, if we can possibly have the 35th anniversary SS as far away as possible from any PR discussion, that would be great.

[Prime32]

We won't hit peak Spiderverse until they give us a big screen portrayal of Japanese Spider-man (The Emissary From Hell!) and his giant mecha Leopardon...What about a cameo from Yuu Onomae, protagonist of Spider-Man: Fake Red? Short series where Spidey goes missing, and a Japanese-American guy with a similar build stumbles across his suit.

The finale of the 90s animated series had a multidimensional team of Spider-Men, one of whom turns out to be an actor from a universe similar to our own (imagine if they accidentally recruited Tom Holland, basically); he feels too useless to join their mission, but ends up saving the day at the last minute. If you really wanted, you could reference two past media at once by slotting Yuu into that role.

And then there's Yuu Komori, protagonist of the 70s Spider-Man manga, who spends a lot of time morbidly depressed and fantasising about murdering the people who annoy him.

[The Glyphstone]

Wasn't Takuya and Leopardon already canon in the comics anyway?

Also, yeah, if we can possibly have the 35th anniversary SS as far away as possible from any PR discussion, that would be great.

Yeah, he did get to show up and help in the comics Spiderverse crossover.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Also, yeah, if we can possibly have the 35th anniversary SS as far away as possible from any PR discussion, that would be great.

…gonna ask for clarification here. SS = Sinister Six?

[The Glyphstone]

…gonna ask for clarification here. SS = Sinister Six?

Super Sentai, if I followed the discussion. The original Japanese costumed-hero series that Power Rangers is built on re-using footage from.

[Traab]

I'm both interested and concerned with this. This movie looks really overstuffed to me, and although all the individual pieces look good I worry about their ability to combine well in the runtime of a single movie. Spider-verse and Sinister Six in one movie is asking a LOT.

Speaking of which, the animated Spider-verse film was just a couple years ago, did we really need that in a movie again already?

Ah well, I hope it's good, and I hope it's not the last of the Tom Holland Spider-Man movies.

Too be fair, the difference here is these are all well established and known characters to the audience, making it a lot easier to toss them into a blender and hit frappe. That was the problem with toby and his third. You had harry osborn as the goblin, the venom suit then brock as venom AND you had the sandman all needing to have their origin story and motivation and such covered in a single film. This time we can just go "OMG ITS DOCK OCK!" Honestly, I wanted a spiderman franchise to live long enough for a sinister six film for a long time now.

This all sounds like it can be an easy justification for a reboot, after all, holland is on record as saying he doesnt want to be playing spiderman when he is 30. And a huge multiversal collision like this can easily have reboot effects. You could even literally bring in a new actor to play spiderman in THIS mcu and justify it through dimensional shenanigans. Plenty of angst as mj and may want nothing to do with this stranger, the new spiderman isnt familiar with anyone or anything here, etc.

[Anteros]

Too be fair, the difference here is these are all well established and known characters to the audience, making it a lot easier to toss them into a blender and hit frappe. That was the problem with toby and his third. You had harry osborn as the goblin, the venom suit then brock as venom AND you had the sandman all needing to have their origin story and motivation and such covered in a single film. This time we can just go "OMG ITS DOCK OCK!" Honestly, I wanted a spiderman franchise to live long enough for a sinister six film for a long time now.

This all sounds like it can be an easy justification for a reboot, after all, holland is on record as saying he doesnt want to be playing spiderman when he is 30. And a huge multiversal collision like this can easily have reboot effects. You could even literally bring in a new actor to play spiderman in THIS mcu and justify it through dimensional shenanigans. Plenty of angst as mj and may want nothing to do with this stranger, the new spiderman isnt familiar with anyone or anything here, etc.

If they went with that route I'd imagine we'd get Miles instead of Peter as Spidey. Which...the MCU's Peter already steals a lot from Miles anyway, so it's not that big of a change.

[Traab]

If they went with that route I'd imagine we'd get Miles instead of Peter as Spidey. Which...the MCU's Peter already steals a lot from Miles anyway, so it's not that big of a change.

For all we know we might get ben reily.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Super Sentai, if I followed the discussion. The original Japanese costumed-hero series that Power Rangers is built on re-using footage from.

Thank you!

[ben-zayb]

Too be fair, the difference here is these are all well established and known characters to the audience, making it a lot easier to toss them into a blender and hit frappe. That was the problem with toby and his third. You had harry osborn as the goblin, the venom suit then brock as venom AND you had the sandman all needing to have their origin story and motivation and such covered in a single film. This time we can just go "OMG ITS DOCK OCK!" Honestly, I wanted a spiderman franchise to live long enough for a sinister six film for a long time now.Also, to MCU's credit, it has a track record of handling newly-introduced ensemble casts courtesy of James Gunn's GotG. So there's at least some kind of precedent or template, and the MCU loves its templated movies.

It's pretty wild how many mulligans Fox had in making a good ensemble movie, but missed on most of their attempts. Sony blew both of its live action ensemble Spider-Man movies, with Spiderverse at least bringing Sony's hitting record to at least a 1 of 3.

[Delicious Taffy]

For all we know we might get ben reily.
If we finally got some 2099 representation, I'd be very happy.

[Anteros]

For all we know we might get ben reily.

I can't see them passing up a chance to put Miles in the MCU. It's not a matter of if he gets in, but when. With the huge push for representation and how good the MCU is about being inclusive, and the fact that Miles is probably the best of those legacy characters...It just makes sense.

Not saying it'll be as a result of this movie, but it won't be long.

[Traab]

I can't see them passing up a chance to put Miles in the MCU. It's not a matter of if he gets in, but when. With the huge push for representation and how good the MCU is about being inclusive, and the fact that Miles is probably the best of those legacy characters...It just makes sense.

Not saying it'll be as a result of this movie, but it won't be long.

Speaking of representation, I havent heard anything about the jane as thor thing that was announced a long ways back. Is that still on?

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Speaking of representation, I havent heard anything about the jane as thor thing that was announced a long ways back. Is that still on?

Last I heard all of next year’s MCU slate has gotten pushed out a few months, including Thor 4.

[Rater202]

I can't see them passing up a chance to put Miles in the MCU. It's not a matter of if he gets in, but when. With the huge push for representation and how good the MCU is about being inclusive, and the fact that Miles is probably the best of those legacy characters...It just makes sense.

Not saying it'll be as a result of this movie, but it won't be long.

You say that... But they basically already did Miles' story.

They just made him white, called him "Peter Parker", called Ganke "Ned Leeds", and replaced the orignal Spider-Man with Iron Man.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

You say that... But they basically already did Miles' story.

Also, Spider-verse. It’s got a sequel coming next year 2022.

[Anteros]

You say that... But they basically already did Miles' story.

They just made him white, called him "Peter Parker", called Ganke "Ned Leeds", and replaced the orignal Spider-Man with Iron Man.

True. Maybe they'll give Miles an elderly aunt, a redhead gf, and have him work as a photographer.

[Traab]

True. Maybe they'll give Miles an elderly aunt, a redhead gf, and have him work as a photographer.

And be taken over by the spirit of doc ock. /nod :smallbiggrin:

[Clertar]

And be taken over by the spirit of doc ock. /nod :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, they should do that with Andrew Garfield at the end of this movie, then have his "Peter Parker" go back to his universe and make a movie on the follow-up.

[Azuresun]

We won't hit peak Spiderverse until they give us a big screen portrayal of Japanese Spider-man (The Emissary From Hell!) and his giant mecha Leopardon...

I looked that up and holy crud..... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFYIRZoyavw)

[Phobia]

Having both a Sony Spider-Man and a Disney Spider-Man after this seems like a great idea.

[Psyren]

Saw it.

PHENOMENAL.

GO SEE IT. NOW.

That is all.

There are two.

[Eldan]

How required would you say is knowledge of the previous spiderman movies? Not the marvel-adjacent ones, the last two generations. Because I think I've seen about half of Raimi Spider-Man two on TV once about ten years ago and none of the middle Spider-Men.

[GloatingSwine]

I saw it on Wednesday.

It's good, but I'm not as enthused as some seem to be.



+ The big positive is very good performances from Tom Holland, Alfred Molina, Willem Defoe, and Jamie Foxx. They were the core of the dilemma in the movie with the three villains representing the triangle of accepting, rejecting, and wavering over getting help from Spider-Man.

+ The interplay and cameraderie of the different Spider-Mans was very good, both when playing off each other and when discussing the emotional pain being Spider-Man has caused them.

+ A hero acting out of compassion even in the face of personal cost.

+ Willem Defoe playing the Green Goblin as he always should have, without a stupid plastic mask.

+ They didn't give in to the temptation to CGI de-age Tobey Maguire. They let him be a grown-up Spider-Man who had some life under his belt.

- It's busy. The villains have a good dynamic of one who accepts help, one who rejects it, and one who isn't sure, with Sandman as a wildcard who just wants to go home. That leaves absolutely nothing for The Lizard to do except eat up screen time that someone more interesting could have had. He doesn't challenge Spider-Man in any way any of the others don't, he's just present.

- Ned learning to open portals with the sling ring is a plot convenience which does nothing to his character. He can do it, it moves events forward, it stops. Again this is a casualty of how busy things are. He doesn't get to examine whether he wants to still be "the guy in the chair" after getting this new ability.

- Really super minor nitpick but it stood out: In his introduction scene when he was standing in front of the portal, Andrew Garfield's head looked a size too big. He's not small of bonce in the first place, but it looked like a CG error in that one specific scene like he hadn't been available for a reshoot and they pasted his face in afterwards.



How required would you say is knowledge of the previous spiderman movies? Not the marvel-adjacent ones, the last two generations. Because I think I've seen about half of Raimi Spider-Man two on TV once about ten years ago and none of the middle Spider-Men.

You need at least the wikipedia summaries. Probably not a lot more than that.

[Ornithologist]

How required would you say is knowledge of the previous spiderman movies? Not the marvel-adjacent ones, the last two generations. Because I think I've seen about half of Raimi Spider-Man two on TV once about ten years ago and none of the middle Spider-Men.

Saw it last night. You likely don't need much if any. They do surprisingly well with in movie quick synopsis, that felt really natural to me.



I would be curious if the movie holds up as well for someone who didn't watch up to 7 other spiderman movies, or not every MCU movie as well.

Personally, id call it 10/10. But its just my personal opinion.

[Psyren]

Going with 11/10 here. It really hit at the biggest strength of multiversal stories, seeing the true points of what makes a character who they are and why they are so enduring across generations.

The comedy, the action, the drama and emotions, even the worldbuilding and franchise stuff... Jon Watts brought his A-game here. It didn't feel busy to me at all, the stakes and the "what are we trying to do right now" always felt clear.

Also:
Come on guys, they fixed One More Day. Forget the Oscars, that's worthy of a Nobel Prize!

[Tyndmyr]

How required would you say is knowledge of the previous spiderman movies? Not the marvel-adjacent ones, the last two generations. Because I think I've seen about half of Raimi Spider-Man two on TV once about ten years ago and none of the middle Spider-Men.

Not required at all. It's been a long time since I saw either of those. If you have rough overall knowledge of spiderman and his traditional enemies, perhaps from reading comics, that will suffice.

I found the film to be quite enjoyable. My girlfriend, less so.


She viewed it as leaning too hard on nostalgia for the other two spideys, which I guess is at least partially fair...and was put off by the ending, and how Tom's spiderman gets treated harshly a lot. She prefers the lighter, banter-heavy spidey, which is why she prefers the MCU's spiderman.

I think I enjoyed the uniqueness of the premise...how many films could pull off something like this, with the same weight and setup to it? It's a rare thing. Toss in all these A tier actors giving it their best, and a script that isn't afraid to cut loose a bit with craziness, and it's a fun ride.

[Starbuck_II]

It was amazing.

In a few months, definitely seeing again on Disney Plus (when free), so much happened (loved seeing amazing again).

Loved After credits.

Doc Oct vs multiple leg Spider was so cool.

[GloatingSwine]

I think I enjoyed the uniqueness of the premise...how many films could pull off something like this, with the same weight and setup to it? It's a rare thing. Toss in all these A tier actors giving it their best, and a script that isn't afraid to cut loose a bit with craziness, and it's a fun ride.


I wouldn't say it's all that unique a premise really. Even discounting the other Spider-Verse stories, comic and movie (Into the Spider-Verse was better than No Way Home also), Doctor Who did it in 1972 with The Three Doctors (and again since), Power Rangers did it in 2002 with Forever Red (and again since), and I'm sure there have been others.

[Eldan]

Had nothing planned so I spontaneously went to see it on my way home from work.

Yeah, thoroughly entertaining. Had some of the same problems as other Marvel movies, some jokes that didn't quite land, some scenes that went on for too long, both emotional and humourous ones. But no major complaints.

Thought I had a handle on most of the Sinister Six, too, despite not seeing their movies. Though they felt all like pretty broad stereotypes. Maybe not Electro Man. Felt like I didn't quite get what his deal was or why I should care and how falling into a pool of electric eels lead to taking over the world. I can respect the guy who wants to turn everyone into dinosaurs instead of curing cancer, though, that seems a good idea, if he can make everyone as strong and durable as him.

As for the after credits...
Bit of a let down.

After Jamie Foxx said he expected Spider Man to be black, I was sure they were gonna tease Miles Morales, not just Venom (that scene... was probably the worst in the movie. Not funny or interesting.) and a MOM trailer. Especially after some parts of the credits looked a lot like the art style of Spiderverse.

[Psyren]

I can respect the guy who wants to turn everyone into dinosaurs instead of curing cancer, though, that seems a good idea, if he can make everyone as strong and durable as him.

Lizards*

The dinosaur guy is actually a different villain:
https://i.imgur.com/YKaqaTH.jpeg

[Eldan]

I know, but I thought it was funny.

[GloatingSwine]

Thought I had a handle on most of the Sinister Six, too, despite not seeing their movies. Though they felt all like pretty broad stereotypes. Maybe not Electro Man. Felt like I didn't quite get what his deal was or why I should care and how falling into a pool of electric eels lead to taking over the world.

Jamie Foxx' Electro was like a turbo-nerd who everyone ignored and who Spider-Man was nice to once, he got electric powers by accident and it went to his head because now people had to pay attention to him, and he got bitter that Spidey didn't recognise him from before he was a terrible blue CGI. Then he exploded.

[Psyren]

Jamie Foxx' Electro was like a turbo-nerd who everyone ignored and who Spider-Man was nice to once, he got electric powers by accident and it went to his head because now people had to pay attention to him, and he got bitter that Spidey didn't recognise him from before he was a terrible blue CGI. Then he exploded.

At least it wasn't a dubstep battle this time :smalltongue:

[Tvtyrant]

I actually really enjoyed that movie 😆

[Ramza00]

Thought I had a handle on most of the Sinister Six, too, despite not seeing their movies. Though they felt all like pretty broad stereotypes. Maybe not Electro Man. Felt like I didn't quite get what his deal was or why I should care and how falling into a pool of electric eels lead to taking over the world. I can respect the guy who wants to turn everyone into dinosaurs instead of curing cancer, though, that seems a good idea, if he can make everyone as strong and durable as him.


Cerebrocast, the podcast, just did an episode about the mutant adjacent villain who just wants to turn Humans into Dinosaurs since the 2010s. This marvel merry mutant podcast which does deep dives into characters, full of banter and lore was rated by Entertainment Weekly as one of their top 10 podcasts, that their staff has as favorites. Ironically this podcast specific episode about Dr. Karl Lykos, the marvel Sauron, is kind of special for as an anniversary milestone the podcast host had his dad as a guest and it was his dad’s comic collection that got the host into comics in the first place. Of course the podcast has lots of famous guests, but having a family member is kind of a sentimental thing you do for your Thanksgiving day episode for you are full of gratitude.

https://redcircle.com/shows/fcf903ec-714a-422e-8779-4f9d723a0540/episodes/bd78680f-44c7-4619-b5d3-67b55aa75ae0


Jamie Foxx' Electro was like a turbo-nerd who everyone ignored and who Spider-Man was nice to once, he got electric powers by accident and it went to his head because now people had to pay attention to him, and he got bitter that Spidey didn't recognise him from before he was a terrible blue CGI. Then he exploded.

In a different movie this I would be such an interesting foil, for it is Peter Parker as a different way he could have turned out. Peter he too was the angry nerdy loner with a chip on his shoulder, who when he first got his powers had to learn how to dial it down and grow up.

[Dire_Flumph]

I enjoyed it, *Really* happy I went in spoiler-light. Don't want to get too deep in the weeds, but a few things that did bug me:

Ok, I'm curious, is there any reason Eddie is there? How would he have known about Peter Parker (since only people who knew about the Parker/Spider-Man connection were brought over supposedly)? Was there something in Venom 2 that set that up?

Peter's actions cost him an awful lot. I'm sort of glad there wasn't a reboot to bring May back and undercut everything, but he went through a lot to help the villains that came through. I really wanted to see something of what happened when they went back (A quick montage like the end of Spider-Verse would have been fine, even animated over the end credits or something). Otherwise I have to figure they all just died again anyway after they went back.

I was hoping it would turn out that Ned's ability to weave portals would turn out to be Strange helping them while still trapped. Magic should require a little bit more training.

But yeah, gripes aside, I had a great time, better than I was expecting. I appreciated that they allowed better character moments than some of these guys got in their own movies.

A Toby Maguire/Andrew Garfield team up event series. Disney, Sony, make it happen. They were great together.

[Prime32]

When Osborne was cooking up an antiserum, I half-expected a twist where he was going to use data on Lizard + Hulk to turn himself into the Ultimate Marvel version of the Green Goblin. And then a stinger where Ned came across some stuff he left behind. There was still some possible foreshadowing there - what with Ned's unusual aptitude for magic, his interest in knives and torture devices, and that "I promise I won't turn into a supervillain" line...

Also, "Wong is Sorcerer Supreme now because someone had to step up when Strange was gone" is funny while also making perfect sense, and casts his role in the Shang-Chi movie in a new light.

Speaking of which, this movie was just a pileup of unexpected appearances. Besides the Spider-Men, and the Sinister Five (plus Venom) it also had cameos from Daredevil and even what looked like Evil Strange from the What If? series.


@Dire_Flumph
Venom 2 stinger had Eddie show up in the MCU and dropped some comment about symbiotes sharing knowledge between universes.

[Psyren]

I enjoyed it, *Really* happy I went in spoiler-light. Don't want to get too deep in the weeds, but a few things that did bug me:

Ok, I'm curious, is there any reason Eddie is there? How would he have known about Peter Parker (since only people who knew about the Parker/Spider-Man connection were brought over supposedly)? Was there something in Venom 2 that set that up?

Short version: Yes there was.

Longer version:
Venom establishes that the symbiote hive-mind extends across the multiverse. So Tom Hardy's venom knows who Peter Parker is thanks to Topher Grace's Venom knowing who Peter Parker is.

In the post-credits of this film, Tom Hardy is sent back to his universe (Earth-TRN688, aka SPUMC) when the others are. But the spell appears to overlook a bit of Venom's essence that is now left behind in the MCU, which will no doubt seek out Tom Holland so he gets the black suit at some point, and eventually transition to the MCU / Earth-19999 version of Eddie Brock (wherever he is.)


Peter's actions cost him an awful lot. I'm sort of glad there wasn't a reboot to bring May back and undercut everything, but he went through a lot to help the villains that came through. I really wanted to see something of what happened when they went back (A quick montage like the end of Spider-Verse would have been fine, even animated over the end credits or something). Otherwise I have to figure they all just died again anyway after they went back.

I liked it being ambiguous:
I view it kind of like redeeming Joker or Lex Luthor; whether it "sticks" or not isn't really the point. What matters is that it shows that's what Peter would actually do if he had the opportunity, because that's who he is. Just like Bruce Wayne or Clark Kent would really do that. (Diana not so much :smallbiggrin:)

In other words, redeeming them is more about showing us Peter's true character than theirs.

Maybe they stay good and Peter is able to retire while they help redeem Oscorp and help deal with any other associated villains who might pop up. Or maybe they backslide and end up dying anyway. They might even win and kill Peter in their respective universes. Again, what matters most is that Peter would try (and did), even risking his own life to do so or causing him extreme physical and emotional pain.


I was hoping it would turn out that Ned's ability to weave portals would turn out to be Strange helping them while still trapped. Magic should require a little bit more training.

I do agree that seemed to come out of nowhere - but at the same time
I'm totally down for Ned Supreme, that could be hilarious :smallbiggrin: and the shot of him floating down with the Cloak of Levitation certainly seems to be hinting that he could end up getting formal training or even becoming the SS at some point.

[GloatingSwine]

Peter's actions cost him an awful lot. I'm sort of glad there wasn't a reboot to bring May back and undercut everything, but he went through a lot to help the villains that came through. I really wanted to see something of what happened when they went back (A quick montage like the end of Spider-Verse would have been fine, even animated over the end credits or something). Otherwise I have to figure they all just died again anyway after they went back.

They were each plucked from just before the moment of their death (apart from Sandman who didn't die anyway, that's why he didn't care and just wanted to go home). So going back without their powers or madness they'll just stop trying to fight Spider-Man and be captured.

Except, ironically, Doc Ock, who was redeemed in the final moments of Spider-Man 2 anyway and sacrificed himself to stop his out of control fusion reactor. So he will still die for the same reason he did in Spider-Man 2.

[Dire_Flumph]

Short version: Yes there was.

I was thinking it was just Sony cramming Tom Hardy in willy nilly



I liked it being ambiguous:

I get that, I really do, and normally I might agree, but in this case it cost Peter so much that dramatically I really wanted some payoff as to whether it really changed anything or not. And come on, I just wanted to see Flint reunited with his daughter again.



I do agree that seemed to come out of nowhere - but at the same time
I'm totally down for Ned Supreme, that could be hilarious :smallbiggrin: and the shot of him floating down with the Cloak of Levitation certainly seems to be hinting that he could end up getting formal training or even becoming the SS at some point.

I agree totally, although the ending makes Ned getting more training unlikely. That could have been an interesting turn for him and a way to get him to turn up in later MCU films. I like the character a lot so it's a bit disappointing it looks like something that won't be explored further.

On another note, my wife is fluent in Tagalog and she was laughing her head off when his mom was talking to Andrew Garfield. She doesn't hear it much in the movies so that was a major treat for her. :smallbiggrin:

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Just got back from seeing it.


Wong you are a terrible Sorcerer Supreme. You made a mess, couldn't be bothered to clean it up, and then brushed off one of your underlings and bailed when you knew he was going to stir up more trouble? Mind, Strange's actions didn't make a good argument for him getting the job either. You're a doctor Strange, you make sure the patient understands the procedure before you start the procedure!
I got everything I wanted out of Matt Murdock's cameo. :smallbiggrin: SUPER pleased they squeezed him in.
NonMCU!Spidermen tearing into Dr. Strange 'why didn't you help?!!' amused me in a meta sense.
Called it with Aunt May!
Loved the bit with Doc Ock wrapping up both alternate Spider-men, playing the supervillian to the hilt...and then casually taking out Electro. :smallbiggrin:




How required would you say is knowledge of the previous spiderman movies? Not the marvel-adjacent ones, the last two generations. Because I think I've seen about half of Raimi Spider-Man two on TV once about ten years ago and none of the middle Spider-Men.

I know you've seen it since you posted this, but I'm going to answer anyway in case someone else has the same question: I've only seen the Raimi trilogy and I could follow the Amazing points mostly fine. It helps that most of the villains don't know each other either.




As for the after credits...
Bit of a let down.

After Jamie Foxx said he expected Spider Man to be black, I was sure they were gonna tease Miles Morales, not just Venom (that scene... was probably the worst in the movie. Not funny or interesting.) and a MOM trailer. Especially after some parts of the credits looked a lot like the art style of Spiderverse.

Yeah, gotta agree here.

Venom getting plopped back into the SUMaC right after getting ripped out of it is like 'why did you even bother, Sony?' and the MOM stinger felt too much like a commercial.


I was thinking it was just Sony cramming Tom Hardy in willy nilly

They basically did, though; he didn't do anything except apparently get drunk and interrogate a bartender. They could have gotten a symbiote to MCU Earth any other way if that's all they were going to do with it. *grumbles*



I get that, I really do, and normally I might agree, but in this case it cost Peter so much that dramatically I really wanted some payoff as to whether it really changed anything or not. And come on, I just wanted to see Flint reunited with his daughter again.

Concur that these would have made better end credit scenes.




On another note, my wife is fluent in Tagalog and she was laughing her head off when his mom was talking to Andrew Garfield. She doesn't hear it much in the movies so that was a major treat for her. :smallbiggrin:

I'm curious, was there any bilingual bonus in there?

[Dire_Flumph]

I'm curious, was there any bilingual bonus in there?

I asked her and it didn't sound like it. Sounded like she immediately started scolding them saying she keeps a neat house and they need to clean this mess up right away.

She was mostly just thrilled they went through the trouble of casting a Tagalog speaker for the part. We knew Ned's actor was of Filipino descent, but it didn't necessarily mean the character was. Representation can be very powerful.

Edit: She also corrected me, that's Ned's Grandmother.

[Lord Raziere]

Peter's actions cost him an awful lot. I'm sort of glad there wasn't a reboot to bring May back and undercut everything, but he went through a lot to help the villains that came through. I really wanted to see something of what happened when they went back (A quick montage like the end of Spider-Verse would have been fine, even animated over the end credits or something). Otherwise I have to figure they all just died again anyway after they went back.


I choose to interpret them as having been saved, and happy that there is at least one version of these characters that get to have a happy ending somewhere in the multiverse. with their memories of all this erased along with their various conditions, its not likely that they will be in the same situations that led to them dying or being villains in the first place.

[ecarden]

Generally enjoyed it though...

I am now confused as to what people believe happened historically. Like, MJ was still hurt and May was still dead, so it didn't change the past, just people's knowledge. So, how does MJ believe she was hurt?

How did Stark find him?

Does this finally close the ridiculousness of Stark complaining about needing oversight, then bringing in a child soldier to fight for him, in direct violation of the accords he was fighting to bring to fruition?

Argh...

I'm generally good with the expansion of the universe and I really enjoyed Wanda in the post-credits scene, where she doesn't try to evade what happened in Westview. I don't love the whole, 'I'm here for your help, so we aren't going to discuss the torture,' but I hope that will come across better in the actual movie.

The breakdown here was a lot better than the trailers suggested. I took away that but for what happened in Loki, things could not have gone so wrong, as the TVA would have trimmed everything, so Strange was operating under a faulty set of rules. And the spell (though the **** up was pretty embarrassing) was one he'd cast in the past and he managed to contain it. Strange doesn't come out looking great, but he looks a lot better than the trailers suggested (and unless I'm confused, they're flat out misleading about Wong's position on the whole thing).

Argh! Once again, we've made the world bigger, but only by shoving everything else out. I know Wong said 'don't involve me' but as everything collapsed and then the sky ripped open...a few wizards might have portalled in, they have teleportation!

Speaking of which...I really don't love portalling being that easy, but I can't remember how quickly Strange learned it, so I can't complain that it's actually breaking anything in canon.

I do love that Strange isn't Sorcerer Supreme, after being gone for five years. Makes sense and is an actual, if minor, consequence that seems to be sticking around.

Okay, I don't mind most super-science stuff, and the stuff that involved Octavius I can give a pass as MCU's robotics and AI are way more advanced and Peter has direct experience with them. But the others...wow...okay...science isn't just one field. There's a lot of biology, some sort of genetic engineering, electronic engineering and geez, I don't even know what branch of science would be involved in turning someone back from a giant sand creature...

They were cured awful darn easy with a bunch of spidermen and two smart highschool students working on it. Sort of feel like maybe the scientists of other universes are just all dummies or something.

This one was pretty good, Strange was in character, as was Peter and the argument wasn't artificial of anything. Now, a brief conversation, if they both were willing to be reasonable would have been better, but then we wouldn't have gotten the Strange-Spiderman fight and the nice parallel to Loki in being trapped for a long time by magic...

Personally, I would have had the debate and then had Strange put a clock on it as he could tell how long before things went wrong with the contained spell. Ned, MJ and those who are willing to help can work on cures for those which are possible and Strange/Spiderman are searching for magical artifacts for the ones that aren't. Things go wrong, villains escape, etc., etc., but that's just my preference.

[The Glyphstone]

Finally saw it so I can open this thread again.

Excellent, I had no complaints really. The jokes landed, the emotional beats hit. I was caught up enough in the action that I didn't see the obvious shocking twist coming despite it being telegraphed in giant neon letters, largely because I wasnt expecting Marvel to actually pull the trigger on that one after subverting it for so long.

[Bartmanhomer]

I saw the movie yesterday morning and I say that movie was awesome. What I like about the movie, It has so much action, I like that 3 Spider-Man from different universes join forces to stop the villains in other universes. That wasn't anything I dislike about the movie. Toby, Andrew, and Tom made a great Spider-Man team. I'll give this movie a perfect 10 out of 10 stars. :smile:

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I am now confused as to what people believe happened historically. Like, MJ was still hurt and May was still dead, so it didn't change the past, just people's knowledge. So, how does MJ believe she was hurt?

How did Stark find him?

Agree, and going to expand on this a little:


We see MJ is still wearing the necklace he gave her at the end, is there a big obvious hole in her memories as to how she got it or does she have some vague recollection of ‘oh, I got this from a classmate, wish I could remember their name’? Does the stuff Peter did get assigned to other people? She’s still wearing it, which suggests to me there’s enough memory left to remain attached to it.

And I want to know how the paper trail for this works. Did Peter’s birth certificate evaporate? Is he still going to MIT (assuming MIT lady filed the paperwork before the memory wipe)? Does his image vanish from video footage, like the recording he made at the beginning of Homecoming? Hypothetically, if MJ had scribbled ‘Spider-man is my boyfriend and his name is Peter Parker’ onto a post-it and stuck it to her forehead before the wipe could she have used it to remind herself?




Strange doesn't come out looking great, but he looks a lot better than the trailers suggested (and unless I'm confused, they're flat out misleading about Wong's position on the whole thing).

You’re not confused; Wong was a lot more against it in the trailer than the film.





Speaking of which...I really don't love portalling being that easy, but I can't remember how quickly Strange learned it, so I can't complain that it's actually breaking anything in canon.

I do love that Strange isn't Sorcerer Supreme, after being gone for five years. Makes sense and is an actual, if minor, consequence that seems to be sticking around.

They don’t come out and say it, but I gather Strange actually had more difficulty than average with the Sling Ring. Recall, the Ancient One had to strand him on a freezing mountain to get him to get it working.

Maybe it’s tied to how much you want the thing you’re portaling to?




Okay, I don't mind most super-science stuff, and the stuff that involved Octavius I can give a pass as MCU's robotics and AI are way more advanced and Peter has direct experience with them. But the others...wow...okay...science isn't just one field. There's a lot of biology, some sort of genetic engineering, electronic engineering and geez, I don't even know what branch of science would be involved in turning someone back from a giant sand creature...

They were cured awful darn easy with a bunch of spidermen and two smart highschool students working on it. Sort of feel like maybe the scientists of other universes are just all dummies or something.

Lizard, at least, Andrew Garfield had already cured once before, unless I misheard that bit of dialogue.

Otto’s was presumably just a case of looking at the broken inhibitor chip, replacing the bits that got fried and adding some extra shielding so it didn’t get fried again.

Goblin’s first cure didn’t work, and we’ve seen MCU!Peter has some skill with chemistry (making his webbing).

The rest admittedly I’ve got nothing. :smalltongue: I’m actually a little confused as to why they bothered curing Sandman, seeing as he wanted to go home anyway.



This one was pretty good, Strange was in character, as was Peter and the argument wasn't artificial of anything.

Agree here; we’ve seen Strange do the moral ‘needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few’ calculus back in Endgame and Peter save an enemy in Homecoming.

[ecarden]

Lizard, at least, Andrew Garfield had already cured once before, unless I misheard that bit of dialogue.

Otto’s was presumably just a case of looking at the broken inhibitor chip, replacing the bits that got fried and adding some extra shielding so it didn’t get fried again.

Goblin’s first cure didn’t work, and we’ve seen MCU!Peter has some skill with chemistry (making his webbing).

The rest admittedly I’ve got nothing. :smalltongue: I’m actually a little confused as to why they bothered curing Sandman, seeing as he wanted to go home anyway.

But, I'd be less grumpy if we didn't have a fairly hard time limit, as I believe Strange mentions they only had twelve hours, total for everything to happen. I mean, all the battles, plus all the science, and they solved it in twelve hours? That's...not great for solving problems on this scale.

[Psyren]

Agree, and going to expand on this a little:


We see MJ is still wearing the necklace he gave her at the end, is there a big obvious hole in her memories as to how she got it or does she have some vague recollection of ‘oh, I got this from a classmate, wish I could remember their name’? Does the stuff Peter did get assigned to other people? She’s still wearing it, which suggests to me there’s enough memory left to remain attached to it.

And I want to know how the paper trail for this works. Did Peter’s birth certificate evaporate? Is he still going to MIT (assuming MIT lady filed the paperwork before the memory wipe)? Does his image vanish from video footage, like the recording he made at the beginning of Homecoming? Hypothetically, if MJ had scribbled ‘Spider-man is my boyfriend and his name is Peter Parker’ onto a post-it and stuck it to her forehead before the wipe could she have used it to remind herself?

He's definitely not going to MIT. Friendly neighborhood Spiderman, remember? He may end up in NYU like in the comics.

As for MJ, I dunno about a post-it note, but I suspect some of her drawings may be used later to rebuild the connection.

The rest of your questions depend on the exact wording of the spell, which I don't remember verbatim.


They don’t come out and say it, but I gather Strange actually had more difficulty than average with the Sling Ring. Recall, the Ancient One had to strand him on a freezing mountain to get him to get it working.

Maybe it’s tied to how much you want the thing you’re portaling to?

Given that he can use the sling ring in precision combat I don't think he has as much difficulty with it as you seem to. He used it to keep Peter from escaping with the box pretty effectively. What Strange didn't count on was that Peter's Spider Sense essentially makes him a psychic being and so Strange's usual astral tricks were doomed to fail.


Lizard, at least, Andrew Garfield had already cured once before, unless I misheard that bit of dialogue.

Otto’s was presumably just a case of looking at the broken inhibitor chip, replacing the bits that got fried and adding some extra shielding so it didn’t get fried again.

Goblin’s first cure didn’t work, and we’ve seen MCU!Peter has some skill with chemistry (making his webbing).

The rest admittedly I’ve got nothing. :smalltongue: I’m actually a little confused as to why they bothered curing Sandman, seeing as he wanted to go home anyway.

Goblin had a hand in developing his own cure (as well as that of the others). Given that his evil side was secretly doing the driving at that point, it's little wonder that he sabotaged it to do nothing. But he made sure that the others he helped with worked so he wouldn't tip off Peter's Spider Sense until it was too late.

As for Flint - the science involved is physics, because they made a miniature version of the particle accelerator that warped his molecules in the first place. Presumably it works in reverse (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1prJr9VIaY) :smalltongue:

They're curing Flint because he doesn't want to be a sand elemental, never mind how awesome that would be to you or me :smalltongue: plus my understanding is that unexpected stress makes him "flare up" and go monstrous which would make life difficult for him and especially his daughter.


But, I'd be less grumpy if we didn't have a fairly hard time limit, as I believe Strange mentions they only had twelve hours, total for everything to happen. I mean, all the battles, plus all the science, and they solved it in twelve hours? That's...not great for solving problems on this scale.

Three of the greatest scientific minds in all of Marvel were helping out in that room though - with access to technology even more advanced than what they had in their home universes. (And later on, three more!)

[Ornithologist]

I actually got a big chuckle out of Venoms appearance. Eddie Brock does not have his life together on a good day, and I can totally see him just decide to go drinking instead crossing international borders and thousands of miles to go check out someone his symbiote says they know. Its not like any of the metauniverse characters knew it was Peter's fault when they came through.

[The Glyphstone]

As far as the memory wipe spell, it's not explicitly stated but does seem to be implied by the ending scene that it also deletes/erases physical evidence. If JJ still had the tape made by Mysterio where it both explicitly accuses Spider-Man of being a mass murderer and outs him as Peter Parker, he wouldn't be questioning both Spider-man's hero-ness or demanding he unmask. He knows Spider-Man exists, he's just forgotten everything relevant to his identity. So the post-it note would probably evaporate into a puff of magic, is my best guess. We've got plenty of proof on-screen that MCU magic works on intent as much as explicit wording.

[Tvtyrant]

Agree, and going to expand on this a little:


We see MJ is still wearing the necklace he gave her at the end, is there a big obvious hole in her memories as to how she got it or does she have some vague recollection of ‘oh, I got this from a classmate, wish I could remember their name’? Does the stuff Peter did get assigned to other people? She’s still wearing it, which suggests to me there’s enough memory left to remain attached to it.

And I want to know how the paper trail for this works. Did Peter’s birth certificate evaporate? Is he still going to MIT (assuming MIT lady filed the paperwork before the memory wipe)? Does his image vanish from video footage, like the recording he made at the beginning of Homecoming? Hypothetically, if MJ had scribbled ‘Spider-man is my boyfriend and his name is Peter Parker’ onto a post-it and stuck it to her forehead before the wipe could she have used it to remind herself?



You’re not confused; Wong was a lot more against it in the trailer than the film.



They don’t come out and say it, but I gather Strange actually had more difficulty than average with the Sling Ring. Recall, the Ancient One had to strand him on a freezing mountain to get him to get it working.

Maybe it’s tied to how much you want the thing you’re portaling to?



Lizard, at least, Andrew Garfield had already cured once before, unless I misheard that bit of dialogue.

Otto’s was presumably just a case of looking at the broken inhibitor chip, replacing the bits that got fried and adding some extra shielding so it didn’t get fried again.

Goblin’s first cure didn’t work, and we’ve seen MCU!Peter has some skill with chemistry (making his webbing).

The rest admittedly I’ve got nothing. :smalltongue: I’m actually a little confused as to why they bothered curing Sandman, seeing as he wanted to go home anyway.



Agree here; we’ve seen Strange do the moral ‘needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few’ calculus back in Endgame and Peter save an enemy in Homecoming.
Top spoiler:
They show him studying for the GRE, so my assumption is he is out of the college game.

Essentially he traded his aunt's life, his chances of a college life, his Stark funded finances, and his best friends so that his best friends could go to college.

[Psyren]

I think it was GED rather than GRE.
The latter is for after college, when you're applying to a Master's degree or Doctorate program. A GED is to get into college, which is where he's at.


As far as the memory wipe spell, it's not explicitly stated but does seem to be implied by the ending scene that it also deletes/erases physical evidence. If JJ still had the tape made by Mysterio where it both explicitly accuses Spider-Man of being a mass murderer and outs him as Peter Parker, he wouldn't be questioning both Spider-man's hero-ness or demanding he unmask. He knows Spider-Man exists, he's just forgotten everything relevant to his identity. So the post-it note would probably evaporate into a puff of magic, is my best guess. We've got plenty of proof on-screen that MCU magic works on intent as much as explicit wording.

The spells also aren't perfect. We're getting hints of that from MJ, she clearly is feeling something when she looks at Peter, and that also explains why she's holding on to the black dahlia despite having no idea where it came from.

$10 says she and possibly Ned transfer from MIT to NYU based on their subliminal memories, and that will serve as an inciting incident for Peter in the next film as he suddenly has the reintroduction of conflict between being Peter and being Spiderman to his life (lives).

[Ramza00]

Goblin had a hand in developing his own cure (as well as that of the others). Given that his evil side was secretly doing the driving at that point, it's little wonder that he sabotaged it to do nothing. But he made sure that the others he helped with worked so he wouldn't tip off Peter's Spider Sense until it was too late.

As for Flint - the science involved is physics, because they made a miniature version of the particle accelerator that warped his molecules in the first place. Presumably it works in reverse (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1prJr9VIaY) :smalltongue:

They're curing Flint because he doesn't want to be a sand elemental, never mind how awesome that would be to you or me :smalltongue: plus my understanding is that unexpected stress makes him "flare up" and go monstrous which would make life difficult for him and especially his daughter.

Wait are you saying with the memory spell


That the missing memories are like missing Dr Who episodes archives from the 60s, which were deleted as policy, and we are unable to recreate with fan copies and so on? Gone forever, yet they did happen, like a play prior to a recording.

If so that is DARK, Peter Parker’s pains, trials, and memories … like tears in the rain.

[Psyren]

Nah it wasn't that deep :smallbiggrin: I was making a joke about how physics in movies (and TV shows) is like a car where all you have to do is put it in reverse.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

But, I'd be less grumpy if we didn't have a fairly hard time limit, as I believe Strange mentions they only had twelve hours, total for everything to happen. I mean, all the battles, plus all the science, and they solved it in twelve hours? That's...not great for solving problems on this scale.

I don’t remember him saying they had a twelve hour time limit, just that he’d been falling through the Grand Canyon for twelve hours. Everything before Peter grabbing the box happened before that point. And IIRC one of the other Spider-men did mention they’d been trying to figure out a way to cure one of their villains (I forget which, does anyone else remember?) since after their fight, so some of this science might have happened in advance.


I actually got a big chuckle out of Venoms appearance. Eddie Brock does not have his life together on a good day, and I can totally see him just decide to go drinking instead crossing international borders and thousands of miles to go check out someone his symbiote says they know. Its not like any of the metauniverse characters knew it was Peter's fault when they came through.

Put that way, I’d have done the same, especially if they were only there for a day or so. That’s a rather large amount of effort to go through right after a big shakeup.

Doesn’t mean I’m not still annoyed at Sony, mind, but it is in character. :smalltongue:


As far as the memory wipe spell, it's not explicitly stated but does seem to be implied by the ending scene that it also deletes/erases physical evidence. If JJ still had the tape made by Mysterio where it both explicitly accuses Spider-Man of being a mass murderer and outs him as Peter Parker, he wouldn't be questioning both Spider-man's hero-ness or demanding he unmask. He knows Spider-Man exists, he's just forgotten everything relevant to his identity. So the post-it note would probably evaporate into a puff of magic, is my best guess. We've got plenty of proof on-screen that MCU magic works on intent as much as explicit wording.

This is a good point. And actually I can see this making Peter’s life very difficult even without the immediate loss of his support group - no birth certificate, no SSN, no high school diploma, he can’t use the ‘Stark Internship’ for prior work experience, if his Aunt May had any life insurance or would have left him inheritance he can’t use it…all things considered he might as well have gotten dumped on another planet.

Good thing he has previous experience dumpster diving for electronics.

[The Glyphstone]

[SPOILER]This is a good point. And actually I can see this making Peter’s life very difficult even without the immediate loss of his support group - no birth certificate, no SSN, no high school diploma, he can’t use the ‘Stark Internship’ for prior work experience, if his Aunt May had any life insurance or would have left him inheritance he can’t use it…all things considered he might as well have gotten dumped on another planet.

Good thing he has previous experience dumpster diving for electronics.


I dont think it went that far because he is studying for the GED, and that requires some form of government ID. So while it erased anyone's memories that he is Peter Parker/Spiderman, it probably didn't wipe out every trace of Peter Parkers existence. How does it erase a video while preserving a social security database entry? Wizard magic apparently.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I dont think it went that far because he is studying for the GED, and that requires some form of government ID. So while it erased anyone's memories that he is Peter Parker/Spiderman, it probably didn't wipe out every trace of Peter Parkers existence. How does it erase a video while preserving a social security database entry? Wizard magic apparently.


Okay but that raises a new question, namely if it didn’t wipe everything why doesn’t he have his high school diploma???

[ecarden]

I don’t remember him saying they had a twelve hour time limit, just that he’d been falling through the Grand Canyon for twelve hours. Everything before Peter grabbing the box happened before that point. And IIRC one of the other Spider-men did mention they’d been trying to figure out a way to cure one of their villains (I forget which, does anyone else remember?) since after their fight, so some of this science might have happened in advance.

Except all the science happens post Strange showing up and saying 'no we're sending everyone back.' It's only at that point they realize the folks are going back to their deaths and all the negative consequences. At least that's my recollection. So, the 12 hours he spent hanging out were the same 12 hours they spent fighting and sciencing.

ETA: I'm usually fine with ridiculous movie timelines, but don't shove it in my face. If Strange had just said 'Do you KNOW how long I spent hanging around in the Mirror Dimension?' then at least there'd be some ambiguity.

[Psyren]

Okay but that raises a new question, namely if it didn’t wipe everything why doesn’t he have his high school diploma???

This is basically going to be like the Snap where it creaks if you lean on it, and they wait to fill in some of the details later like we saw with FATWS and Hawkeye. Sure it's fun to speculate now, but if you're looking for concrete answers to some of these details you're probably going to have to wait.

[GloatingSwine]

Given that he can use the sling ring in precision combat I don't think he has as much difficulty with it as you seem to. He used it to keep Peter from escaping with the box pretty effectively. What Strange didn't count on was that Peter's Spider Sense essentially makes him a psychic being and so Strange's usual astral tricks were doomed to fail.


Using the Sling Ring in the first place was the first major hurdle for Strange because he still didn't quite believe in magic. Ned's best friend knows a wizard's home address, so he doesn't have that to overcome which is why he can sort of use it.

[Psyren]

Using the Sling Ring in the first place was the first major hurdle for Strange because he still didn't quite believe in magic. Ned's best friend knows a wizard's home address, so he doesn't have that to overcome which is why he can sort of use it.

Theory:

Ned's strong connection to Peter + the residual energy from Strange's mega-spell made porting in Garfield and Maguire relatively easy.

When Ned then had to use the ring differently, he struggled - which almost got MJ killed, and explained why Peter was happy to not try restoring their memories (if he even can) later.

[Dire_Flumph]

This is basically going to be like the Snap where it creaks if you lean on it, and they wait to fill in some of the details later like we saw with FATWS and Hawkeye. Sure it's fun to speculate now, but if you're looking for concrete answers to some of these details you're probably going to have to wait.

I'm really not sure what happened with regards to Pete as I realized if it was just wiping the Peter/Spider-Man reveal, then why don't Ned and MJ recognize him anymore? They both knew him before he was Spider-Man. I assume it was just a sledgehammer taken to any records or memory of Peter for the last few years or so which is why he might still be in the system as a citizen, but all his high school records went up in smoke.

If so, then if he pushed it with Ned and MJ they might remember vaguely seeing him at school some time back, but that would be it.

[ecarden]

I'm really not sure what happened with regards to Pete as I realized if it was just wiping the Peter/Spider-Man reveal, then why don't Ned and MJ recognize him anymore? They both knew him before he was Spider-Man. I assume it was just a sledgehammer taken to any records or memory of Peter for the last few years or so which is why he might still be in the system as a citizen, but all his high school records went up in smoke.

If so, then if he pushed it with Ned and MJ they might remember vaguely seeing him at school some time back, but that would be it.

So, the way I understood it:

What we have is an interaction of two spells. The first was messed up and so started pulling in people that know Peter Parker is Spiderman. But, due to loose phrasing, it's grabbing anyone who knows 'a Peter Parker' not 'this Peter Parker.' So, the solution due to the delay causing so many to start getting pulled in is to basically shift the spell so that it's completed via deleting the 'this Peter Parker' information from everyone. That doesn't quite make sense with what we know, but that's the best I could figure it out.

[Anteros]

Thought the first half was absolutely terrible, and the second half was great. They rely too much on what I'd call cringe humor. Or at least, a lot of the interactions in the first half of the movie were making me cringe and I hope it was intentional. I generally don't like "It's Always Sunny" style humor where everyone is just screaming nonsense at each other, and a lot of the scenes are constructed this way.

Specific plot beats.

For all the "oh I couldn't do this without you guys" that they kept spouting, I'm not sure what Ned or MJ actually bring to the table. They literally don't do anything. At all. At least until Ned arbitrarily gets magical powers during the second half of the movie. He gives them a button to press if he doesn't text them? That could be accomplished by literally anyone.

Apparently Parker is a Tony Stark level scientist now. Ok? I know he's a genius in the comics, but you didn't do any of the ground work in the previous movies to make it believable that this version of Spidey is a genius. Making super-tech in a lab is a pretty huge departure from his previous MCU depictions which have generally just shown him as a reckless kid with Stark doing the harder science stuff for him.

Speaking of being reckless and stupid...why would you take 5 mentally unstable, super-powered serial killers home to your family? What did he expect to happen? I get not abandoning them to die, but taking them home to your family feels stupid even for this version of Peter. It's pure plot contrivance that more people don't die. All those cars that got blown up were empty? I guess the police parked outside the building and then retreated across the street or something.

I guess he also never learned any basic CPR or even to hold pressure on a wound during his super heroing experiences. Yeah, he's a real genius.

If the spell was bringing in everyone across the multiverse who knows Parker=Spidey and removing knowledge of him is what stopped it....that's an infinite number of Peter Parkers out there that just got their life ruined for this universe's convenience. Not very heroic. He could have at least given his buddies a heads up that he just ruined their lives before he sent them home. I guess this is just typical MCU "don't think about it too hard" stuff though.


There's more, but that's enough for now. As for positives, the action scenes were very good, and I enjoyed Ock and Obsorne's portrayals. I loved the scene at the end with the snow and the Christmas lights, and I think it leaves off on a good place for future movies.


Using the Sling Ring in the first place was the first major hurdle for Strange because he still didn't quite believe in magic. Ned's best friend knows a wizard's home address, so he doesn't have that to overcome which is why he can sort of use it.

That would make sense....except Ned literally used it on accident the first few times. Apparently all you have to do is hold the thing and make a circle. Makes you wonder why anyone would struggle with it. To the point where Strange, who is a magical prodigy almost froze to death despite having seen the feat performed numerous times previously and literally arriving at his location via magic.

[Palanan]

Just saw it, and turns out I called it:


Originally Posted by Palanan
I'm thinking MJ falls, Pete can't catch her...and another Spider-Man makes the save. Possibly Andrew Garfield.



Overall, I’m with those who feel it was great fun, but extremely busy.

In fact, I’d call it a mess. Ton of fun, but definitely a mess.


Way too much goofy spider-banter. A few lines is one thing, but going on and on and on…started to feel forced and even draggy.

The villains were all over the place. Lizard and Marko were especially underused, and Electro was barely one-dimensional. Doc Ock was great, and Goblin was the best version we’ve ever seen on screen. But their motivations weren't always clear (why was Flint protecting Spidey at first?) and it ended up feeling like a crowded jumble.

I was expecting both more teamwork and more inter-villain betrayal from the bad guys. They're deranged geniuses who just...hang out? I was hoping for more of an organized Evil Master Plan, and then their sudden but inevitable betrayals as they attacked each other while working at cross-purposes.

Instead, they just snarked at each other a little, took turns beating on Spidey, and then they disappeared for long stretches. I was hoping to at least get a sense of what they’d been doing while offscreen. But apparently…not much? Not even a little skybeam to remind us they're in the big leagues?

And as Dire_Flumph mentioned, I really wanted to see a quick montage of how they readapted to their lives back home. With Doc Ock, the implication was that the arc reactor was a new beginning for his quest for fusion power, but what about the others? Lost opportunity, especially given the rather pointless Venom scene. (I haven't seen any of the Venom movies, so it took me a while to even realize that's who it was.)


Originally Posted by GloatingSwine
…but it looked like a CG error in that one specific scene like he hadn't been available for a reshoot and they pasted his face in afterwards.

I noticed something similar in one of the first scenes with Willem Dafoe, when he was crouching against the brick wall in the alley. Looked very much like his face had been tacked onto a suit via uncommonly poor CGI. It was visible enough that it was distracting in the moment.


Originally Posted by ecarden
They were cured awful darn easy with a bunch of spidermen and two smart highschool students working on it. Sort of feel like maybe the scientists of other universes are just all dummies or something.

One of them did say that he’d had a lot of time to think about it…but yeah, in a high school science lab? A bit much.

[Bartmanhomer]

Doctor Octopus became a hero during the movie. I like how he redeemed himself and took down Electro.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

But their motivations weren't always clear (why was Flint protecting Spidey at first?) and it ended up feeling like a crowded jumble.


In spite of his accidental murder of Raimi!Uncle Ben, he’s not an irredeemably bad guy - his motivation in his original movie was ‘steal money for sick daughter’. End result was Flint was on reasonably good terms with his Spider-man after the events of Raimi!Spider-man 3, which he mistook MCU!Spidey for.



I was expecting both more teamwork and more inter-villain betrayal from the bad guys. They're deranged geniuses who just...hang out? I was hoping for more of an organized Evil Master Plan, and then their sudden but inevitable betrayals as they attacked each other while working at cross-purposes.


In their defense they aren’t all familiar with each other beyond a few shared highlights and they’re stranded in another universe away from most of their resources or even familiar territory. That’s got to put a damper on any take-over-the-world plots.




One of them did say that he’d had a lot of time to think about it…but yeah, in a high school science lab? A bit much.

Didn’t they already have the bulk of the cures built before that point though, by the Stark box?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga
End result was Flint was on reasonably good terms with his Spider-man….

Sounds like you remember that movie better than I did. It was so terrible I only watched it once, and couldn’t force myself to rewatch it when it was on a few weeks ago. (The superhero channels have been plastering the schedule with Spidey movies.)

The Raimi movies were fun, but a little too earnest and way, way too much screaming. And MJ should’ve invested in some climbing gear after all the times she ended up perilously suspended above New York.


Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga
In their defense they aren’t all familiar with each other beyond a few shared highlights and they’re stranded in another universe away from most of their resources or even familiar territory. That’s got to put a damper on any take-over-the-world plots.

True, but “deranged genius” works from another set of assumptions. :smalltongue:

Also, they all know Spider-Man, and most of them are sure they can handle him; but they don’t know the weird guy in the cape and goatee, who’s the one actually capable of containing them all. It would make sense for them to cooperate, at least temporarily, to take him down—and of course to backstab each other as soon as they’re sure that Goatee Wizard is no longer a threat. Mu ha.

I guess what I really want is a Sinister Six series on Disney+.


Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga
Didn’t they already have the bulk of the cures built before that point though, by the Stark box?

True—but even so, if they needed to be built by the fabricator, then I would think they’d need to be completely built by the fabricator. Ah well.



Also…

I was hoping for a cameo from Kirsten Dunst, but I guess the MCU couldn’t afford her.

:smallsigh:

[The Glyphstone]

I saw a snippet of an interview with the screenwriter where someone asked why they didn't bring it alternate MJs, and the short version was they didn't want to bog the movie down with too many characters.

[Brackenlord]

That would make sense....except Ned literally used it on accident the first few times. Apparently all you have to do is hold the thing and make a circle. Makes you wonder why anyone would struggle with it. To the point where Strange, who is a magical prodigy almost froze to death despite having seen the feat performed numerous times previously and literally arriving at his location via magic.

I think it was intentionally (and sucessfully IMO) left open whether Ned has any magical talent/lineage or just a dumb fluke.
Stephen at the time had more of a mental block in trying to wrap his head around the way magic works vs how he believed the universe should work and his own inadequacy.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Sounds like you remember that movie better than I did. It was so terrible I only watched it once, and couldn’t force myself to rewatch it when it was on a few weeks ago. (The superhero channels have been plastering the schedule with Spidey movies.)

The Raimi movies were fun, but a little too earnest and way, way too much screaming. And MJ should’ve invested in some climbing gear after all the times she ended up perilously suspended above New York.

Yeah Raimi 3 had a lot of problems. :/ HISHE pegged the scene with the butler perfectly. They retconned Uncle Ben’s killer for some cheap drama. MJ is even more stuck on herself than the first two movies. I’m probably forgetting more.





I guess what I really want is a Sinister Six series on Disney+.

No arguments there. :smallsmile:

[Azuresun]

My favourite bit of the movie: The Daily Bugle demanding to know why Spiderman hates famous landmarks.


Venom establishes that the symbiote hive-mind extends across the multiverse. So Tom Hardy's venom knows who Peter Parker is thanks to Topher Grace's Venom knowing who Peter Parker is.

In the post-credits of this film, Tom Hardy is sent back to his universe (Earth-TRN688, aka SPUMC) when the others are. But the spell appears to overlook a bit of Venom's essence that is now left behind in the MCU, which will no doubt seek out Tom Holland so he gets the black suit at some point, and eventually transition to the MCU / Earth-19999 version of Eddie Brock (wherever he is.)

It's worth bearing in mind that the Venom symbiote has had other hosts in the comics, so they could use them if they don't want to tread on Sony's turf. One of which was Flash Thompson (he joined the military and lost his legs, then got the symbiote as part of a military black-ops program). Hard to imagine this version of Flash Thompson getting it and becoming a supervillain, though. :smallwink:

And cool as it would have been, I can understand why they didn't use him in the movie. He's got no reason to be angry at Peter (at best, Venom would be angry at Maguire Spiderman for killing one of the other symbiotes, which is tenuous), and bringing him in as an ally would have distracted from the big team-up. I'll be interested to see what they do with "homegrown" Venom.



They were each plucked from just before the moment of their death (apart from Sandman who didn't die anyway, that's why he didn't care and just wanted to go home). So going back without their powers or madness they'll just stop trying to fight Spider-Man and be captured.

Except, ironically, Doc Ock, who was redeemed in the final moments of Spider-Man 2 anyway and sacrificed himself to stop his out of control fusion reactor. So he will still die for the same reason he did in Spider-Man 2.

From context, he seemed to have not been plucked from right before he died (because he regained his sanity before sacrificing himself), so he'll have a bit more time to fix the mistake. Plus, he has a mini arc reactor this time.

Also, if Norman Osborne now doesn't die fighting Spiderman, that probably means that Harry never picks up the mantle, so he probably lives too.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

It's worth bearing in mind that the Venom symbiote has had other hosts in the comics, so they could use them if they don't want to tread on Sony's turf. One of which was Flash Thompson (he joined the military and lost his legs, then got the symbiote as part of a military black-ops program). Hard to imagine this version of Flash Thompson getting it and becoming a supervillain, though. :smallwink:



My thought was that they might give it to

Mac Gargan, aka Scorpion, who had it for a time in the comics and whose MCU version has been in limbo since the stinger in Homecoming.

[Psyren]

My favourite bit of the movie: The Daily Bugle demanding to know why Spiderman hates famous landmarks.



It's worth bearing in mind that the Venom symbiote has had other hosts in the comics, so they could use them if they don't want to tread on Sony's turf. One of which was Flash Thompson (he joined the military and lost his legs, then got the symbiote as part of a military black-ops program). Hard to imagine this version of Flash Thompson getting it and becoming a supervillain, though. :smallwink:

And cool as it would have been, I can understand why they didn't use him in the movie. He's got no reason to be angry at Peter (at best, Venom would be angry at Maguire Spiderman for killing one of the other symbiotes, which is tenuous), and bringing him in as an ally would have distracted from the big team-up. I'll be interested to see what they do with "homegrown" Venom.




From context, he seemed to have not been plucked from right before he died (because he regained his sanity before sacrificing himself), so he'll have a bit more time to fix the mistake. Plus, he has a mini arc reactor this time.

Also, if Norman Osborne now doesn't die fighting Spiderman, that probably means that Harry never picks up the mantle, so he probably lives too.


Honestly I think Flashom is a fine idea. He has a much bigger rivalry with Peter than introducing a new character (MCU Eddie) would at this stage of the game. And Marvel could bulk him up to avoid the Topher Grace problem.

Of course, now that Parker is broke and needs to make ends meet, he might end up doing the classic gig of selling pictures (...TikToks? How are we modernizing the newspaper concept?) of Spiderman to an obsessed JJ or his successor - and a gig like that could explain meeting whoever the MCU Eddie is. (overworked intern? nepotistic hotshot?)

[Phobia]

Doc Ock and Green Goblin were incredible. I wish we could have a Superior Spider-Man show! Love Rami Spider-Man 2 Hero Doc Ock.

I agree in that I feel they’ll use the symbiote to get our MCU-Scorpion. He already has beef with him and the actor is at least a tough looking guy. Unlike Flash in this version. I like the idea of Peter being forced to sell pictures to J.J. to make ends meet now lol

[Palanan]

One thing the movie glossed over is what exactly happened with E.D.I.T.H. and all of Stark’s tech. We saw a brief shot of the E.D.I.T.H. glasses, but were they confiscated by Damage Control? If so, and if everyone has now forgotten about Peter, does that mean Damage Control has no idea what they are? And how do the glasses and the tech resources intersect with whoever is now running Stark Industries?

As for funding, this version of Aunt May seems to be well-versed in legal issues (perhaps a nod to My Cousin Vinny) and I would expect she already had a will drawn up leaving her estate to Peter. Does that legal instrument puff away with the spell? If so, where do May’s assets go? If not, does Peter have more of a safety net than his one-room flat would indicate?

[The Glyphstone]

My favourite bit of the movie: The Daily Bugle demanding to know why Spiderman hates famous landmarks.



It's worth bearing in mind that the Venom symbiote has had other hosts in the comics, so they could use them if they don't want to tread on Sony's turf. One of which was Flash Thompson (he joined the military and lost his legs, then got the symbiote as part of a military black-ops program). Hard to imagine this version of Flash Thompson getting it and becoming a supervillain, though. :smallwink:

And cool as it would have been, I can understand why they didn't use him in the movie. He's got no reason to be angry at Peter (at best, Venom would be angry at Maguire Spiderman for killing one of the other symbiotes, which is tenuous), and bringing him in as an ally would have distracted from the big team-up. I'll be interested to see what they do with "homegrown" Venom.




From context, he seemed to have not been plucked from right before he died (because he regained his sanity before sacrificing himself), so he'll have a bit more time to fix the mistake. Plus, he has a mini arc reactor this time.

Also, if Norman Osborne now doesn't die fighting Spiderman, that probably means that Harry never picks up the mantle, so he probably lives too.


What if he regained his sanity because of his little side trip? If the spell returns him to the moment he left, from the Raimiverse PoV he just becomes redeenef suddenly...exactly like it happened.

[Traab]

Thought the first half was absolutely terrible, and the second half was great. They rely too much on what I'd call cringe humor. Or at least, a lot of the interactions in the first half of the movie were making me cringe and I hope it was intentional. I generally don't like "It's Always Sunny" style humor where everyone is just screaming nonsense at each other, and a lot of the scenes are constructed this way.

Specific plot beats.

For all the "oh I couldn't do this without you guys" that they kept spouting, I'm not sure what Ned or MJ actually bring to the table. They literally don't do anything. At all. At least until Ned arbitrarily gets magical powers during the second half of the movie. He gives them a button to press if he doesn't text them? That could be accomplished by literally anyone.

Apparently Parker is a Tony Stark level scientist now. Ok? I know he's a genius in the comics, but you didn't do any of the ground work in the previous movies to make it believable that this version of Spidey is a genius. Making super-tech in a lab is a pretty huge departure from his previous MCU depictions which have generally just shown him as a reckless kid with Stark doing the harder science stuff for him.

Speaking of being reckless and stupid...why would you take 5 mentally unstable, super-powered serial killers home to your family? What did he expect to happen? I get not abandoning them to die, but taking them home to your family feels stupid even for this version of Peter. It's pure plot contrivance that more people don't die. All those cars that got blown up were empty? I guess the police parked outside the building and then retreated across the street or something.

I guess he also never learned any basic CPR or even to hold pressure on a wound during his super heroing experiences. Yeah, he's a real genius.

If the spell was bringing in everyone across the multiverse who knows Parker=Spidey and removing knowledge of him is what stopped it....that's an infinite number of Peter Parkers out there that just got their life ruined for this universe's convenience. Not very heroic. He could have at least given his buddies a heads up that he just ruined their lives before he sent them home. I guess this is just typical MCU "don't think about it too hard" stuff though.


There's more, but that's enough for now. As for positives, the action scenes were very good, and I enjoyed Ock and Obsorne's portrayals. I loved the scene at the end with the snow and the Christmas lights, and I think it leaves off on a good place for future movies.



That would make sense....except Ned literally used it on accident the first few times. Apparently all you have to do is hold the thing and make a circle. Makes you wonder why anyone would struggle with it. To the point where Strange, who is a magical prodigy almost froze to death despite having seen the feat performed numerous times previously and literally arriving at his location via magic.

As far as the spidey is a genius now thing, didnt hollands spidey literally redesign his super suit from the ground up in the back of one of tonys jets during the whole mysterio thing? I do agree we didnt get a lot of genius parker in this one but at least we got to see some signs of his engineering skills.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Traab
As far as the spidey is a genius now thing, didnt hollands spidey literally redesign his super suit from the ground up in the back of one of tonys jets during the whole mysterio thing?

He did, but the jet’s fabricator was already loaded with a whole series of suit designs, probably the result of Stark’s design work on the “minor upgrade” and the Iron Spider. Peter didn’t have to design every component from scratch, just rearrange and reconfigure existing components. Stark probably did 95% of the actual design and coding.

Note that Peter used May’s sewing machine to make his latest costume the old-fashioned way, so he can’t just nick into the high school science lab and build Iron Spider 2.0 from scratch.

[Anteros]

As far as the spidey is a genius now thing, didnt hollands spidey literally redesign his super suit from the ground up in the back of one of tonys jets during the whole mysterio thing? I do agree we didnt get a lot of genius parker in this one but at least we got to see some signs of his engineering skills.

It seemed less like he was doing actual science and more like he was just picking from a list of pre-engineered options to me. Maybe I need to watch the scene again though.

[The Glyphstone]

How did I not remember until someone mentioned it here, that Aunt May is an expert in general automotive knowledge?:smallredface:

[Peelee]

How did I not remember until someone mentioned it here, that Aunt May is an expert in general automotive knowledge?:smallredface:

You probably missed that day of law school where it was discussed. :smallwink:

[KillianHawkeye]

Regarding Spidey being smart and inventive, we at least know that he built his web shooters using his high school chemistry lab's equipment. That ain't nothing.

Obviously, he doesn't have the resources to make a new nanotech armor suit now that the Stark fabricator is gone, but he can still do a lot with very little.

[hungrycrow]

It seemed less like he was doing actual science and more like he was just picking from a list of pre-engineered options to me. Maybe I need to watch the scene again though.

It did kinda feel that way, like he's buying a new car and deciding whether it has heated seats and flames painted on the side. But I think the intent of the scene is definitely Peter following in Tony's footsteps as an inventor. Maybe the fabricator is doing the heavy lifting, but I think you need a high level understanding of engineering to be able to use it.

Which is basically what happens in this film, the fabricator already designed and built the devices, Peter just needed a little understanding to be able to fix them.

[Ramza00]

So Spider-Man no way home (the 3rd MCU one) just crossed a Billion Dollars with the worldwide box office.

I find this ironic that 7 years ago Amazing Spider-Man 2 (the Andrew Garfield) only made $709 million and it was a disappointing number due to the large technical budget, a large marketing budget, and the theater part of the sales the movie barely made any money. It was the 9th highest movie in 2014.

More things change the more they stay the same.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

TV Tropes tells me that ‘Lola’ is Tagalong for ‘Grandmother.’ If so this brings an interesting dimension to Agent Coulson’s relationship with his car. :smallbiggrin:

[KillianHawkeye]

TV Tropes tells me that ‘Lola’ is Tagalong for ‘Grandmother.’ If so this brings an interesting dimension to Agent Coulson’s relationship with his car. :smallbiggrin:

I'm sorry, but what's this got to do with Spider-Man? :smallconfused:

[Psyren]

I'm sorry, but what's this got to do with Spider-Man? :smallconfused:

Ned is of Filipino descent; the exchange between him and his grandmother during the sling ring scene involves a good amount of Tagalog.

[KillianHawkeye]

Ah okay, thanks~!

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Ramza00
I find this ironic that 7 years ago Amazing Spider-Man 2 (the Andrew Garfield) only made $709 million and it was a disappointing number due to the large technical budget, a large marketing budget, and the theater part of the sales the movie barely made any money.

Tastes and mileage vary, but I found this one to be a sloppy, draggy mess. They tried to fit in way too much, including the worst possible version of Junior Green Goblin, and it ended up feeling like overcooked gumbo.

The one thing that really motivated me to watch this was the promise of a showdown with Rhino, and I watched the whole frickin’ grind of the movie hoping that at least it would all be justified by a phenomenal battle with a classic Spidey foe.

Instead I got 30 seconds of shooting up police cars, a dopey kid in Spidey jammies, and a manhole cover. And then it ended before the actual fight got started. Not cool.

So I can understand if other people also didn’t throng for this one. The contrast is especially strong with the sprightly tone of Homecoming, which was lighter, brighter, and just plain fun.

[Ramza00]

My feelings about ASM are “complicated”, they did some amazing casting, and the two leads had charisma together … but everything else that was done choices wise I question or I did not like and it would be a long list which I will spare you and my own tummy (for it will tighten itself if I relieve it.)

I kind of hate Spider-Man movies for one of the things in my mind of the character, is he is different people at different ages, he has real growth. And once he reaches a certain stage in the comics they plateau him and he has the illusion of change. Likewise even in the space of little change there is an inner monologue of inner thoughts, with actions not necessary matching those thoughts two pages later (for Peter did the right thing), and thus there is a tension within Peter Parker. He is several different people at all times and that does not translate well to film.

For example Peter Parker is an angry boy as a nerd in high school, yet is still sympathetic, but he has flashes of anger / meanness, thus how he interacts with Flash before the powers and after the powers is key. But once he has the powers he has to realize what he is capable of and not want to be what he wanted to be prior to gaining the powers. For example in ASM movies bully Flash Thompson tried to do a kind thing at once after hearing Peter’s uncle died, but Thompsons is caught up in the responsibility of his previous actions that were horrid. There is no catharsis, only pain. Peter is now not the person he was earlier, there is Kintsugi (金継ぎ, "golden joinery") / kintsukuroi (金繕い, "golden repair")

Yet while Peter’s life sucks, once they find the plateau and the illusion of change, there is still joy and kindness with Peter and Spider-Man. Yes Parker has his infamous “Parker Luck” but he always recovers to find some form of his life is alright, and he is there for his neighborhood helping children and adult neighbors in need. The world kicks at Peter, but he kicks back, and he also gives amazing hugs.

—————

Of course this is why the Spider-Verse movie with Miles is the perfect Spider-Man movie 🥰 🍿

[Dr.Samurai]

I loved seeing the three Peters together. Lots of fun.

Andrew Garfield - I am one of the seven people in the Milky Way galaxy that loved The Amazing Spider-Man movies and think Andrew Garfield was an excellent Peter/Spider-Man, so I was very excited to see him back. I thought his intro scene was hilarious and a much needed boost to the movie at the time it appears. Andrew's Peter arguing with MJ about how is he sticking to the ceiling and whether it's enough proof was awesome and captured his version of Peter perfectly.

Tobey McGuire - Tobey was great as the older, more mellow Peter that's been through it all already. The scene where he stops baby Spider-Man from killing Green Goblin was very moving, as he simply held onto the glider and looked him in the eyes without saying anything, quietly imparting his empathy, strength, and wisdom in that space. Excellent scene.

Tom Holland - I mean... I liked when he came up with team tactics, I guess?

I know this is a one-off but there's a lot of potential here and the greedy part of me wishes this had been a trilogy or something. It's a simple premise that's existed in the comics for a long time but seeing three different versions of Spider-Man together in a live action movie was tons of fun. And not only fighting but also in the lab doing science!

The two older Spider-Men sharing their experiences and giving their advise to Spider-boy was great as well, and even Tobey giving Andrew hope that he can still find love and have a partner was touching. All around a great premise and I enjoyed it.

The villains were a mess. I think by constraining itself to already existing versions of the villains, the story suffered.

Otto - The fight between Spider-Man and Doc Ock in Spider-Man 2 is hands down one of the best comic book movie fights ever. On the one hand, it makes sense that they wouldn't try to replicate that, on the other hand, it's disappointing to have Doc Ock taken out of the fight so easily. Seeing a Doc Ock empowered with nano tech taking on three different Spider-Men at the same time would have been epic. Instead, he's taken over via bluetooth and becomes an ally.

Lizard - Mostly there just to fill out the Six. He doesn't do anything in this movie and his motivations are pointless. He doesn't die and he is supposedly plane shifted when he learns Peter's secret; there is no reason he would be against being sent back. Especially since his plan was near fruition and he had Spidey against the ropes.

Sandman - Sandman was an annoying villain in Spiderman 3 because they made him so sympathetic. He obviously didn't change between now and then because he's the same guy from that moment. I get him helping Spiderman at first, but then I don't really get him not helping later. He wants to go home, so he should be helping the Peters. He was mostly forgettable in this movie.

Electro - I don't think they new what to do with Max. Max is embittered and resentful and vengeful. And now, with power, maniacal. He wants to snuff out all of the light and hope in the world and kill Spiderman. So it's weird that he would accept a device that is going to drain him of all of his power. I know he says "something feels wrong", but that is still far too much "go with the flow" for someone that has some very strong feelings with a very limited worldview. Then after the final fight he is sort of again a normal more sympathetic person talking about how Spiderman helps people.

Osborne - I think he was mostly okay. We are very lucky that Aunt May found hobo Green Goblin and not Sandman or Lizard, because it is unlikely she would have given Peter the "we have to help everyone" speech standing in front of a human dynamo or sand monster.

Happy - Um... why did this successful, intelligent, powerful person turn into a bumbling idiot in this movie?

Ned - Man I wish someone in the writer's room was like "No, we can't just randomly give one of the characters super powers, even with a throwaway line about grandma..."

Humor - The awkward dialogue where each person is tripping over their words is very stale at this point. It can be done, but it can't be the major source of comedy in the movie; it is absolutely overdone at this point. The first half of the movie dragged on and I think a lot of it has to do with this MCU formulaic humor.

Dr. Strange - Unfortunately, the plot in this movie, IMO, asks too much of the audience. That Strange would cast a spell over the entire planet to help Ned and MJ get into MIT seems... ridiculous. Then it goes haywire and affects an infinite number of universes? Did Strange know this? Did he know that Peter just speaking around him could impact the spell that way? Seems entirely too reckless and criminal for Strange to do something like this.

Symbiote - I am always down to see the symbiote in a Spider-Man movie, but I'd be curious to see what, if anything, they do with it. Spider-Man has the Iron Spider suit, so the Symbiote doesn't seem like it could offer all that much more to Spidey. Unless he no longer will have the Iron Spider because of the DODC.


Unfortunately I did not like the way Peter's lesson was delivered in this movie.

Aunt May's "moral crusade" is fine, but it has limits, and this movie doesn't appear to address that. "With great power comes great responsibility" doesn't mean that you help people no matter the consequences.

Unfortunately, in this movie Peter not only fights and traps his own ally (who trusts him and was trying to help him), he releases five super villains and then leads them right over to Aunt May, where they proceed to kill her.

Peter still ends up "curing" them all by the end of the film, and it seems that the moral is that everything that transpired is okay, because Peter helped a handful of super villains. This is a very hard pill to swallow. Strange is literally struggling to contain an infinite number of interdimensional intruders from invading their reality. Simply put, the crap that Peter did was way over the top and had such far-reaching consequences that there is no way it can be explained or justified by saying "with great power comes great responsibility".

[M1982]

Wow, the after credit was just cruel.

Well, at least I have to bow to them for how masterfully they played us. First the Venom 2 after credit scene, then starting with Eddie in the aftercredit scene of No Way Home and then in one swift moment the tear it all away. Yes, a piece of Venom was left behind, but I wanted see the Tom Hardy Venom in the MCU :smallmad:

[Psyren]

Wow, the after credit was just cruel.

Well, at least I have to bow to them for how masterfully they played us. First the Venom 2 after credit scene, then starting with Eddie in the aftercredit scene of No Way Home and then in one swift moment the tear it all away. Yes, a piece of Venom was left behind, but I wanted see the Tom Hardy Venom in the MCU :smallmad:

On the one hand, I did too. On the other hand, he has no connection to any PP, not even the tenuous one the others shared. Reducing it to a teaser of things to come was honestly the best option.


My feelings about ASM are “complicated”, they did some amazing casting, and the two leads had charisma together … but everything else that was done choices wise I question or I did not like and it would be a long list which I will spare you and my own tummy (for it will tighten itself if I relieve it.)

I kind of hate Spider-Man movies for one of the things in my mind of the character, is he is different people at different ages, he has real growth. And once he reaches a certain stage in the comics they plateau him and he has the illusion of change. Likewise even in the space of little change there is an inner monologue of inner thoughts, with actions not necessary matching those thoughts two pages later (for Peter did the right thing), and thus there is a tension within Peter Parker. He is several different people at all times and that does not translate well to film.

For example Peter Parker is an angry boy as a nerd in high school, yet is still sympathetic, but he has flashes of anger / meanness, thus how he interacts with Flash before the powers and after the powers is key. But once he has the powers he has to realize what he is capable of and not want to be what he wanted to be prior to gaining the powers. For example in ASM movies bully Flash Thompson tried to do a kind thing at once after hearing Peter’s uncle died, but Thompsons is caught up in the responsibility of his previous actions that were horrid. There is no catharsis, only pain. Peter is now not the person he was earlier, there is Kintsugi (金継ぎ, "golden joinery") / kintsukuroi (金繕い, "golden repair")

Yet while Peter’s life sucks, once they find the plateau and the illusion of change, there is still joy and kindness with Peter and Spider-Man. Yes Parker has his infamous “Parker Luck” but he always recovers to find some form of his life is alright, and he is there for his neighborhood helping children and adult neighbors in need. The world kicks at Peter, but he kicks back, and he also gives amazing hugs.

—————

Of course this is why the Spider-Verse movie with Miles is the perfect Spider-Man movie 🥰 🍿

My biggest problem with ASM is its huge preoccupation with destiny. Again I go back to Stan Lee's quote about how anyone could be under that mask if they're heroic/responsible enough, which of course carries through to Miles and how he seamlessly took up the mantle. The ASM movies' preoccupation with Peter's parents and building up a huge mythology and conspiracy around how and why he got the powers undermines that, and is in my mind a far bigger weakness than cramming in any number of extra villains and villain setups.

[Ramza00]

My biggest problem with ASM is its huge preoccupation with destiny. Again I go back to Stan Lee's quote about how anyone could be under that mask if they're heroic/responsible enough, which of course carries through to Miles and how he seamlessly took up the mantle. The ASM movies' preoccupation with Peter's parents and building up a huge mythology and conspiracy around how and why he got the powers undermines that, and is in my mind a far bigger weakness than cramming in any number of extra villains and villain setups.

Nods it was a mistake when Ultimate comics did this, and a similar story event in the 90s for Classic / Main Universe Spider-Man (Six Sixteen Universe). Yes there was a single “annual” story in 1968, but that was a one off and I do not take it seriously.

[M1982]

On the one hand, I did too. On the other hand, he has no connection to any PP, not even the tenuous one the others shared.

Which made it so great. His reaction to being told about all the supers in the world was priceless. I'd loved to see him meet some of those :smallannoyed:

[Psyren]

Which made it so great. His reaction to being told about all the supers in the world was priceless. I'd loved to see him meet some of those :smallannoyed:

You know what, fair point. Getting to see him interact with a bunch of Avengers rather than being obsessed with Peter would have been fun.

Maybe what we need is for Peter to have his own run-in with the symbiote first, get scared/wary of THAT Venom, and then bring Tom's back permanently. Somehow!

[KillianHawkeye]

So does anyone know if the Morbius film is in the MCU or in the Venom/Sony universe?

Because in the trailer there's a picture of Spider-Man on a wall, but he also says (jokingly) to someone that he is Venom.

Given that we now know that Tom Hardy's Venom was only in the MCU universe for a short time and probably didn't interact with anyone outside of the vacation resort, we can assume the name Venom still isn't known in the MCU. But Spider-Man isn't known in Venom's timeline, either. So what is happening here?

[Psyren]

Given the Wong scene in NWH, I'm not going to trust much of anything we see in trailers for now, especially anything multiverse-related.

[Dr.Samurai]

Apparently there's reports now that Sony will be doing The Amazing Spider Man 3 with Andrew Garfield, and may have plans for Spider-Man 4 with Tobey. And may be looking to have Emma Stone return as Spider-Gwen.

Man... this would be amazing :smallbiggrin:.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai
And may be looking to have Emma Stone return as Spider-Gwen.

Onboard for this. I’m happy to leave the Toby and Garfield movies where they stood, but definitely willing to watch a Spider-Gwen movie.

[Dr.Samurai]

Onboard for this. I’m happy to leave the Toby and Garfield movies where they stood, but definitely willing to watch a Spider-Gwen movie.
I'm not familiar with Spider-Gwen at all but I loved Emma's Gwen onscreen so I'm down to see Spider-Gwen. But I think what I read is that Sony is looking to bring her back to TAS in a Spider-Gwen role, so if you get Spider-Gwen you also get the greatest Peter Parker/Spider-Man to ever grace the screen :smallwink:.

[hungrycrow]

I'm not familiar with Spider-Gwen at all but I loved Emma's Gwen onscreen so I'm down to see Spider-Gwen. But I think what I read is that Sony is looking to bring her back to TAS in a Spider-Gwen role, so if you get Spider-Gwen you also get the greatest Peter Parker/Spider-Man to ever grace the screen :smallwink:.

If so I hope Sony has learned a few lessons over the years. There was a reason they stopped making those movies and let the MCU play with Spider-man for a while.

[Dr.Samurai]

I think The Amazing Spiderman movies suffered mostly from over-hyped negative PR online. The movies have flaws, but nothing approaching the bloodbath they received online. I chalk it up to the bandwagon effect, and I think, if it's true, that Sony is saying now the reception to Andrew Garfield in No Way Home has made it clear they can continue forward with the franchise, this supports that the original negative press to the movies was way overblown.

[hungrycrow]

I think The Amazing Spiderman movies suffered mostly from over-hyped negative PR online. The movies have flaws, but nothing approaching the bloodbath they received online. I chalk it up to the bandwagon effect, and I think, if it's true, that Sony is saying now the reception to Andrew Garfield in No Way Home has made it clear they can continue forward with the franchise, this supports that the original negative press to the movies was way overblown.

Eh, I saw both movies and thought they were below average. Andrew Garfield and Emma Stone gave great performances, but the plots didn't seem well-written or well-integrated, the villains weren't compelling, and there was way too much time spent hyping up an extended universe they didn't end up making. People like Andrew Garfield in No Way Home because he was working with a different director and a different script.

[Psyren]

If I had to guess, a big part of the backlash to ASM was driven by a desire among a vocal section of the moviegoing public for Marvel to get all their toys back and make the MCU even more of a phenomenon than it was shaping up to be. The MCU was really gathering steam at that point, and the Fox deal was churning the rumor mill pretty heavily.

And while Garfield's performance was pretty great, the writing in those movies was just awful and cluttered. And the less said about Pharrell's score the better. (Dubstep? The "For You" song? Criminy.)

[Dr.Samurai]

Eh, I saw both movies and thought they were below average. Andrew Garfield and Emma Stone gave great performances, but the plots didn't seem well-written or well-integrated, the villains weren't compelling, and there was way too much time spent hyping up an extended universe they didn't end up making.
I'm sure many people agree with you. But the franchise got dragged by the media/fans and nothing in either movie suggests the magnitude of negativity they got. The first one is doing well on Rotten Tomatoes at 72/77. The sequel not as well, understandably so, but still a fresh audience score.

People like Andrew Garfield in No Way Home because he was working with a different director and a different script.
It's virtually the same performance, except in No Way Home he was made to call himself "lame" as a bone to the haters lol. Apart from that, he's the same thoughtful, wise-cracking Spidey from his own franchise.

There's very little to support a position of "I didn't like Andrew Garfield as Spider-Man in TAS, but I liked him enough in No Way Home that Sony will bring him back".

In any event, I know my position is not the popular position, but if No Way Home has made the opportunity possible for more/continued Spidey franchises, then all credit given to the MCU and their version of Spider-Man.

[hungrycrow]

If I had to guess, a big part of the backlash to ASM was driven by a desire among a vocal section of the moviegoing public for Marvel to get all their toys back and make the MCU even more of a phenomenon than it was shaping up to be. The MCU was really gathering steam at that point, and the Fox deal was churning the rumor mill pretty heavily.

I don't remember the fan discussions back then, were they already discussing Spider-man being in the MCU when ASM 1 came out? ASM and the Avengers both came out around the same time. I think it might be the other way around, that fans started suggesting the idea of giving Spider-man back to Marvel because they didn't like the Amazing series. Otherwise they would have suggested just merging the ASM movies into the MCU canon instead of making a whole new Spider-man.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai
I think The Amazing Spiderman movies suffered mostly from over-hyped negative PR online.

…the original negative press to the movies was way overblown.

I never saw or heard any of the negative press. I first watched them just a year or so back, so had no outside influences on my viewing.


Originally Posted by hungrycrow
…I saw both movies and thought they were below average. Andrew Garfield and Emma Stone gave great performances, but the plots didn't seem well-written or well-integrated, the villains weren't compelling, and there was way too much time spent hyping up an extended universe they didn't end up making.

And this was exactly my impression.

The first one was okay-ish, but I really disliked the dark-vigilante tone for Spidey’s beginning. And the second movie was a meandering mess that bogged itself down with draggy drama and uninteresting villains, to say nothing of the special train car in the abandoned station, because apparently Peter’s parents had fifty million dollars to spend on building a secret lab that popped up from under the tracks.

Garfield is a solid actor and there was good chemistry with Emma Stone, but hungrycrow is right—the plot was a jumbled mess and the villains just weren’t that great. I felt underwhelmed by the first movie and downright cheated by the second, so no real urgency on my part to see a third.

[Dr.Samurai]

I'm certainly not saying that all negative critiques of TAS 1 and 2 is due to media influence. I understand some of the complaints.

My point is that to say the reason they didn't make a third one is because the movies were objectively awful is not true, in my opinion. The hype around how bad they were was overblown.

And I can't honestly understand thinking the plot was a mess and the villains were uninteresting, and not feeling the same way about No Way Home. But to each their own.

[The Glyphstone]

I'm certainly not saying that all negative critiques of TAS 1 and 2 is due to media influence. I understand some of the complaints.

My point is that to say the reason they didn't make a third one is because the movies were objectively awful is not true, in my opinion. The hype around how bad they were was overblown.

And I can't honestly understand thinking the plot was a mess and the villains were uninteresting, and not feeling the same way about No Way Home. But to each their own.

ASM didn't have William DaFoe devouring every bit of scenery he got near, or Alfred Molina being Alfred Molina. The pair of them basically carried the entire villain squad on their back - Lizard had no screentime, Sandman got almost no screentime, and Electro just sort of existed without doing anything.

[hungrycrow]

I'm certainly not saying that all negative critiques of TAS 1 and 2 is due to media influence. I understand some of the complaints.

My point is that to say the reason they didn't make a third one is because the movies were objectively awful is not true, in my opinion. The hype around how bad they were was overblown.

And I can't honestly understand thinking the plot was a mess and the villains were uninteresting, and not feeling the same way about No Way Home. But to each their own.

I'd agree that No Way Home had a lot of similar flaws. I think to an extent Dafoe carries the film. You need to build up that conflict of convictions to be able to keep viewers interested in a meandering and poorly paced plot.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone
ASM didn't have William DaFoe devouring every bit of scenery he got near, or Alfred Molina being Alfred Molina. The pair of them basically carried the entire villain squad on their back - Lizard had no screentime, Sandman got almost no screentime, and Electro just sort of existed without doing anything.

Pretty much this. No Way Home had two standout villains and several underused villains. ASM had no standout villains at all, and those it did have were either underused or not especially interesting.

If ASM had removed the Goblin completely it would have been a smoother and more focused movie. Maybe still not great, but a lot more watchable.

But I will give it credit for one thing:

In the opening sequence, the future Rhino has rhino-themed boxers. :smalltongue:

[Tyndmyr]

Eh, I saw both movies and thought they were below average. Andrew Garfield and Emma Stone gave great performances, but the plots didn't seem well-written or well-integrated, the villains weren't compelling, and there was way too much time spent hyping up an extended universe they didn't end up making. People like Andrew Garfield in No Way Home because he was working with a different director and a different script.

The *most* memorable thing about Garfield's plot was, of course, the failed catch. Electro was kinda whatever, and while I liked Garfield's acting at the time, most of the films went into a black hole for me. Not extremely memorable. He's good here because he basically gets the perfect capstone to make his previous movies feel, well, complete.

He wasn't really bad, I think, and I liked that he conveyed a bit of Spidey's awkwardness, but I'm not gonna die on the hill of them being great movies.

[Dr.Samurai]

ASM didn't have William DaFoe devouring every bit of scenery he got near, or Alfred Molina being Alfred Molina. The pair of them basically carried the entire villain squad on their back - Lizard had no screentime, Sandman got almost no screentime, and Electro just sort of existed without doing anything.
Yes but... they didn't really do anything interesting. Molina is defeated quickly and indignant the whole time. I don't find that particularly compelling. DaFoe is reprising his role from the original trilogy, which is fine. But... he pretended to be a good guy, then betrayed Peter, like we all knew he would, at the end. That's not much.

Do I think the villains were great in TAS? No. The villains were a weak point in that franchise I think. I think of all the franchises, Vulture (MCU) and Doc Ock (Raimi) are the standouts.

I think TAS nails down Spider-Man and the web-slinging and combat perfectly. I don't think you can do much better than what we got there. My issue with MCU Spider-Man is how intertwined it is with the rest of the universe. Peter/Spidey is always way in over his head and running to Iron Man/Happy/Strange to help him.

Also, I feel TAS has a lot more heart to it. And not just between Peter and Gwen, but also in Peter's development. I am hoping if they really do make TAS 3 they do not come off his line in No Way Home about "I stopped pulling his punches" because Peter already learned that lesson in TAS. After Ben, he was going around attacking anyone that looked like the killer, and Gwen's father calls out that Spiderman is not trying to help anyone, he has a vendetta. Later, Peter saves the people on the bridge and recognizes the difference between what he had been doing and what he could be doing. After Gwen's death in TAS2, he stops being Spiderman for some months, and then, after watching Gwen's valedictorian speech about being the hope and giving people hope, he returns to helping others. I don't see a space here where he can be "not pulling his punches" and I'm hoping they don't go that route.

The MCU Spider-man doesn't really have this kind of heart to it. Now, with May, but given Peter's role in what happened, it's a tough pill to swallow.

When Tobey and Andrew allow the bad guy to get away, everyone watching can understand and empathize with them. When Tom marches five super villains into the apartment, everyone is screwing their face wondering "what is this guy thinking?".

[Tvtyrant]

Yes but... they didn't really do anything interesting. Molina is defeated quickly and indignant the whole time. I don't find that particularly compelling. DaFoe is reprising his role from the original trilogy, which is fine. But... he pretended to be a good guy, then betrayed Peter, like we all knew he would, at the end. That's not much.

Do I think the villains were great in TAS? No. The villains were a weak point in that franchise I think. I think of all the franchises, Vulture (MCU) and Doc Ock (Raimi) are the standouts.

I think TAS nails down Spider-Man and the web-slinging and combat perfectly. I don't think you can do much better than what we got there. My issue with MCU Spider-Man is how intertwined it is with the rest of the universe. Peter/Spidey is always way in over his head and running to Iron Man/Happy/Strange to help him.

Also, I feel TAS has a lot more heart to it. And not just between Peter and Gwen, but also in Peter's development. I am hoping if they really do make TAS 3 they do not come off his line in No Way Home about "I stopped pulling his punches" because Peter already learned that lesson in TAS. After Ben, he was going around attacking anyone that looked like the killer, and Gwen's father calls out that Spiderman is not trying to help anyone, he has a vendetta. Later, Peter saves the people on the bridge and recognizes the difference between what he had been doing and what he could be doing. After Gwen's death in TAS2, he stops being Spiderman for some months, and then, after watching Gwen's valedictorian speech about being the hope and giving people hope, he returns to helping others. I don't see a space here where he can be "not pulling his punches" and I'm hoping they don't go that route.

The MCU Spider-man doesn't really have this kind of heart to it. Now, with May, but given Peter's role in what happened, it's a tough pill to swallow.

When Tobey and Andrew allow the bad guy to get away, everyone watching can understand and empathize with them. When Tom marches five super villains into the apartment, everyone is screwing their face wondering "what is this guy thinking?".

My brother brought up how much more melodramatic the originals were then the new ones. Green Goblin beats the hero into the ground, murders a bunch of people (that apartment building had people and there were cops where he threw the bombs they just didn't show a pile of corpses), and then leaves without killing Peter because he likes doing stuff like that. There's no plan or even snarkiniess, he just likes hurting spiderman. Doc Ock immediately starts smashing up cars and throwing civilians off of bridges while ranting at Peter about his tech. It's so very out of context for the MCU.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai
I think of all the franchises, Vulture (MCU) and Doc Ock (Raimi) are the standouts.

Absolutely agreed on this point.

(But I do have to say that the alternate Doc Ock from Spider-Verse is an excellent runner-up.)


Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai
My issue with MCU Spider-Man is how intertwined it is with the rest of the universe. Peter/Spidey is always way in over his head and running to Iron Man/Happy/Strange to help him.

I can understand this point of view. It doesn’t bother me quite as much, but I can appreciate that some people would prefer Spidey as a stand-alone hero who relies on inner strength and native ingenuity to solve his crises.

But for better or for worse, Spidey in the MCU has to acknowledge the preexisting heroes, and I think Homecoming did a good job of defining the operating space for everyone involved. And in the comics, Spidey did try to join the Avengers early on*, so it’s only in the earlier movies that he’s been completely isolated from the wider heroing world. In the comics, even the X-Men had to come rescue him at one point.

* I’m sure Ramza will be along to set me straight on this. :smalltongue:


Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai
After Ben, he was going around attacking anyone that looked like the killer, and Gwen's father calls out that Spiderman is not trying to help anyone, he has a vendetta.

This was one of my least favorite aspects of ASM, and it makes for a strong contrast with Homecoming’s Peter, whose credo involves helping people because he can, without any hint of a vendetta. Homecoming wisely chose to avoid rehashing a lot of things which were covered in painful detail in the earlier movies, and it allowed for a brighter and more optimistic tone. That’s certainly one of the main reasons why I prefer Homecoming to ASM.


Originally Posted by Tvtyrant
My brother brought up how much more melodramatic the originals were then the new ones.

Hoo boy, yes. The Raimi movies are starting to show their age in many ways.

Especially with the screaming. So much screaming, from MJ and from many random citizens—sometimes running up and screaming right in the camera like a campy monster flick. These days it really detracts from the action.

[Anteros]

Well, those movies are 20 years old. It's not really fair to hold them to modern standards.


My brother brought up how much more melodramatic the originals were then the new ones. Green Goblin beats the hero into the ground, murders a bunch of people (that apartment building had people and there were cops where he threw the bombs they just didn't show a pile of corpses), and then leaves without killing Peter because he likes doing stuff like that. There's no plan or even snarkiniess, he just likes hurting spiderman. Doc Ock immediately starts smashing up cars and throwing civilians off of bridges while ranting at Peter about his tech. It's so very out of context for the MCU.

Don't agree with this though. There's plenty of similar scenes in the MCU where the villain's motives don't make a ton of sense other than "cause collateral damage for the scene"

[Dr.Samurai]

Absolutely agreed on this point.

(But I do have to say that the alternate Doc Ock from Spider-Verse is an excellent runner-up.)



I can understand this point of view. It doesn’t bother me quite as much, but I can appreciate that some people would prefer Spidey as a stand-alone hero who relies on inner strength and native ingenuity to solve his crises.

But for better or for worse, Spidey in the MCU has to acknowledge the preexisting heroes, and I think Homecoming did a good job of defining the operating space for everyone involved. And in the comics, Spidey did try to join the Avengers early on*, so it’s only in the earlier movies that he’s been completely isolated from the wider heroing world. In the comics, even the X-Men had to come rescue him at one point.

* I’m sure Ramza will be along to set me straight on this. :smalltongue:
Yeah, and it's not a deal breaker for me I mean... I will take what I get lol. For what it's worth, I liked Homecoming a lot, I think (I have trouble remembering all these movies now lol). That had a lot to do with Michael Keaton's Vulture though.

I just don't remember if there was a lesson there or not, or if that was Far From Home. In one of them, Tony takes back the Iron Spider. I forget why. Because Peter is trying too hard or something?

This was one of my least favorite aspects of ASM, and it makes for a strong contrast with Homecoming’s Peter, whose credo involves helping people because he can, without any hint of a vendetta. Homecoming wisely chose to avoid rehashing a lot of things which were covered in painful detail in the earlier movies, and it allowed for a brighter and more optimistic tone. That’s certainly one of the main reasons why I prefer Homecoming to ASM.
Well, they do bring the vendetta in in No Way Home though. I think it's normal for anyone to want revenge after someone harms their family, so I like exploring that angle... so long as the hero emerges from it.

But even apart from that, TAS had the interaction with the kid dangling in the car from the bridge and Spidey coaching him and telling him to put on the mask, or saving the other kid from bullies, or the way he made Max feel special and important when he saved his life. I think TAS nailed a lot of what we like in Spider-Man.

One of my favorite lines, which is so stupid because the Rhino was terrible in TAS2 and the scene where everyone lets a little kid walk up to him in the street is absolutely ridiculous. But despite all that, when Spidey shows up behind the kid and just matter-of-factly says "Hey Spider-man", I love it so much lol. It's like he never takes anything away from anyone, he just gives. It's amazing.

I think the much larger plots of Far From Home and No Way Home, where you're dealing with international stuff and then multiverse stuff, takes away opportunities for "friendly neighborhood spider-man" stuff. It's much more epic, but a little colder I think.

[hungrycrow]

Yes but... they didn't really do anything interesting. Molina is defeated quickly and indignant the whole time. I don't find that particularly compelling. DaFoe is reprising his role from the original trilogy, which is fine. But... he pretended to be a good guy, then betrayed Peter, like we all knew he would, at the end. That's not much.

Do I think the villains were great in TAS? No. The villains were a weak point in that franchise I think. I think of all the franchises, Vulture (MCU) and Doc Ock (Raimi) are the standouts.

Also, I feel TAS has a lot more heart to it. And not just between Peter and Gwen, but also in Peter's development. I am hoping if they really do make TAS 3 they do not come off his line in No Way Home about "I stopped pulling his punches" because Peter already learned that lesson in TAS. After Ben, he was going around attacking anyone that looked like the killer, and Gwen's father calls out that Spiderman is not trying to help anyone, he has a vendetta. Later, Peter saves the people on the bridge and recognizes the difference between what he had been doing and what he could be doing. After Gwen's death in TAS2, he stops being Spiderman for some months, and then, after watching Gwen's valedictorian speech about being the hope and giving people hope, he returns to helping others. I don't see a space here where he can be "not pulling his punches" and I'm hoping they don't go that route.


What makes a good villain isn't just a good performance or a good backstory, it's having them ask the driving question of the movie through their conflict. That's why Molina falls a bit flat here despite giving just as good a performance as he did in Spider-man 2. Green Goblin is the best villain of the bunch because his main motivation is just asking Peter if Great Responsibility is worth it.

The ASM movies have great scenes; I actually love that Garfield learns responsibility slowly by seeing people in danger, and I like the romance in ASM 2. But those scenes aren't pulling me through the dumb Oscorp conspiracy plot, or Lizard's dumb lizard plan, or Electro and Harry's dumb nonsense. If I cared about the main conflicts, my suspension of disbelief wouldn't be shattered by a few bad scenes, but a few good scenes won't save a movie with a bad overall plot.

I should add that I don't think it matters whether the viewer sees something coming. We all know Norman is going to betray Peter, we know Peter will win the final fight and we know he'll make the right choice in the end. The important thing is that it matters to Peter; if it feels like a struggle to him it will feel like a struggle to us.

The first half of the movie is a little badly paced. I see what they're doing: building up problems for Peter and his friends so we see what he's risking by being Spider-man, while at the same time making it petty so that he seems more mature dealing with real stakes at the end of the film. However, I think the movie could have used some genuine danger here to justify going to Dr. Strange.

The villains aren't too good. Doc Ock is fun but not super memorable. Electro being an insecure loser obsessed with being "seen" was weird in ASM 2 but it was unique; now he's just some bland baddie obsessed with power. Lizard is a joke and Sandman is just there. I think fleshing these guys out isn't just important in making them enjoyable; I think it's needed to justify Peter betraying Strange and risking so much to save them. Goblin is great of course, him killing Aunt May and challenging Peter to kill him is what makes this Spider-man Spider-man.

Maguire and Garfield could have been gimmicky cameos, but they're put to good use giving emotional support to Holland and they get some extra closure for their characters as well, which Garfield really needed.

Peter's choice to leave MJ and Ned in the end feels like a great end to the trilogy. Unlike the way Maguire did it in Spider-man 1, this Peter feels like he's come to terms with his loss in a mature way. I'm not sure they'll walk his choice back in a potential Spider-man 4: the Return of the Home.

[The Glyphstone]

Goblin did feel like he had swung by the DCCU and cribbed off Joker's notes before arriving.

[GloatingSwine]

Goblin did feel like he had swung by the DCCU and cribbed off Joker's notes before arriving.

Willem Dafoe was doing as Green Goblin that before DC even had a Nolanverse let alone a cinematic universe.

[The Glyphstone]

Willem Dafoe was doing as Green Goblin that before DC even had a Nolanverse let alone a cinematic universe.

I've clearly forgotten the Raimi Goblin then, because I didn't remember him having a corruptor angle, only wanting to kill Spiderman.

[Tvtyrant]

I've clearly forgotten the Raimi Goblin then, because I didn't remember him having a corruptor angle, only wanting to kill Spiderman.

He actually tries actively to recruit Spiderman, and they have a fairly Joker/Batman relationship except when Spiderman beats him in their third fight he doesn't limp away to lick his wounds but tries one last freeza style back stab.

Literally he's too crazy to live. Slightly saner and it would just be three movies of him trying to murder Parker.

[Anteros]

He actually tries actively to recruit Spiderman, and they have a fairly Joker/Batman relationship except when Spiderman beats him in their third fight he doesn't limp away to lick his wounds but tries one last freeza style back stab.

Literally he's too crazy to live. Slightly saner and it would just be three movies of him trying to murder Parker.

There's like...one line about how they could rule together if they joined forces. It's hardly a Joker/Batman relationship.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I just don't remember if there was a lesson there or not, or if that was Far From Home. In one of them, Tony takes back the Iron Spider. I forget why. Because Peter is trying too hard or something?

That was Homecoming, and it was the regular Spider-man suit not the Iron Spider, because Peter was doing some superheroics behind Tony's back that would have ended badly had Tony not found out and intervened. End result was Peter had to do the final battle of that movie in his sweatsuit and goggles. He was offered the Iron Spider afterwards, but turned it down and thus didn't get it until Infinity War.




Peter's choice to leave MJ and Ned in the end feels like a great end to the trilogy. Unlike the way Maguire did it in Spider-man 1, this Peter feels like he's come to terms with his loss in a mature way. I'm not sure they'll walk his choice back in a potential Spider-man 4: the Return of the Home.

Yeah with Ned and MJ in Massachusetts and Peter in New York, having them just happen to run across each other again is going to feel contrived if they go that route. I'm kind of hoping they give him a new love interest for the next trilogy if there is one. Black Cat maybe?


Willem Dafoe was doing as Green Goblin that before DC even had a Nolanverse let alone a cinematic universe.

Very much this. If anything Norman has gotten nicer in NWH.

[hungrycrow]

There's like...one line about how they could rule together if they joined forces. It's hardly a Joker/Batman relationship.

There's also the whole scene where Goblin captures Spider-man and tries to sell the rule together idea. And his plot for the latter half of the movie is proving that Peter's ideals are wrong before killing him.

[Anteros]

There's also the whole scene where Goblin captures Spider-man and tries to sell the rule together idea. And his plot for the latter half of the movie is proving that Peter's ideals are wrong before killing him.

Maybe my memory is fuzzy then. I didn't remember it being such a recurring theme.

[Dr.Samurai]

What makes a good villain isn't just a good performance or a good backstory, it's having them ask the driving question of the movie through their conflict. That's why Molina falls a bit flat here despite giving just as good a performance as he did in Spider-man 2. Green Goblin is the best villain of the bunch because his main motivation is just asking Peter if Great Responsibility is worth it.
Understood, but, for me, being the best of the bunch is not quite enough. Yes, Goblin is asking Peter about Great Responsibility, but the movie makes the stakes way too high. In short, no one on earth, not any hero or saint, is going to say it is worth risking an invasion of infinite multiverses into your reality, to try and redeem a handful of super villains, or that it's worth massive destruction and risk of/loss of life, or that it's worth putting your aunt that loves you in a room with 5 deranged psychopaths with super powers, directly causing her death.

As the villain, Green Goblin is saying "Is it really worth all of this pain, loss, and suffering?" and as the hero, and we as the viewers, Peter is supposed to say "Yes". That's where this movie fails for me. It is a wholly unreasonable standard. Thank goodness that Dr. Strange, who is visibly and physically struggling to defend the realm as reality literally starts to shatter around him under the weight of an infinite number of invaders, has a nifty magic spell to make it all go away.

Suppose that Green Goblin instead decapitates Tobey at the end instead of merely impaling his torso... is it worth one universe losing a Spider-Man so that Green Goblin can be redeemed? How much risk are you allowed to put others at for the sake of a villain before the massive collateral damage is on your hands as well?

So DaFoe is good here but the lesson that he and Peter are battling over is, in my opinion, not a good one. It seems to me that Green Goblin in this movie could blow up a planet and Peter would still have to take the stance that redeeming Norman is the right thing to do, because that is the position opposite of the villain. The lessons that Tobey and Garfield learn through the Uncle Ben death are that other people might suffer if they don't take on the mantle of responsibility and use their powers for good.

Tom is learning that, if his actions are done in the name of May's great moral crusade, the collateral damage and suffering is justifiable. That's why Tobey and Garfield have to walk us through the justification at the end and explain that "maybe she didn't die in vain", because we were all thinking it.

Peter does make a huge sacrifice at the end of No Way Home, but instead of being a heroic sacrifice it's more like "the least he can do" for everything he risked in the name of redeeming these strangers.

Just a minor quibble here, or more like a little "I wish they would have..." but, it would have been cool to see the Spider-men coach each other on their villains. Like... Electro interfering with the webslingers that Holland and Garfield have, so Tobey has to be the one to take him down (of course, Doc Ock takes him down anyways so that would have to change as well). Doc Ock's tentacles AI mapping all of Tobey's moves, so he can anticipate that Spidey's fighting style and so either Garfield or Holland have to fight him (again, would require Doc Ock to actually be in the fight). Tobey explaining Goblin's glider and it's bomb capacity so they can fight a battle of attrition, etc.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

or that it's worth putting your aunt that loves you in a room with 5 deranged psychopaths with super powers, directly causing her death.

Errm…

Friendly reminder that it was Aunt May that convinced Peter to help the villains, not the other way around. His initial stance was ‘it’s not my problem, the best thing I can do is send everyone back home’ until she talked him out of it. She’s an adult, she made her own choice there.



Suppose that Green Goblin instead decapitates Tobey at the end instead of merely impaling his torso... is it worth one universe losing a Spider-Man so that Green Goblin can be redeemed? How much risk are you allowed to put others at for the sake of a villain before the massive collateral damage is on your hands as well?

And jumping in front of Green Goblin was very much Tobey’s decision, not Tom’s. He’s a veteran superhero at this point, he knows Goblin better than anyone else present, he knows the risks.

[Dr.Samurai]

Errm…

Friendly reminder that it was Aunt May that convinced Peter to help the villains, not the other way around. His initial stance was ‘it’s not my problem, the best thing I can do is send everyone back home’ until she talked him out of it. She’s an adult, she made her own choice there.
Yes, it's her idea and she convinces Peter to help them.

Of course, she's not aware that it's not simply a homeless Norman that Peter is contending with, but highly powerful and dangerous super villains. Of course, she never says "Betray Dr. Strange and fight him". She never says "Bring all those super villains over to Happy's place".

That's all Peter. The point is that the moral of the story is that May and Peter are right. Dr. Strange and Norman are wrong. And, as I've said before, that, for me, is a very hard pill to swallow.

Peter doesn't actively bring the gunman to Uncle Ben and watch him get shot. He makes a choice out of pettiness and revenge, and sees the direct consequences of his actions (or inaction, really).

Peter in No Way Home actively chooses to assist the bad guys and bring them over to Aunt May. And she dies because of it. And we're told that it's okay because he did the right thing. Not quite the same lesson there.


And jumping in front of Green Goblin was very much Tobey’s decision, not Tom’s. He’s a veteran superhero at this point, he knows Goblin better than anyone else present, he knows the risks.
Had Tom simply whisked the villains back to their universes, there never would have been the opportunity to essentially trade Tobey's life for Norman's. Instead, he chooses to keep them around. Happy's place gets demolished (who knows how many people were hurt or killed in that fight scene). Of course the movie takes us over to the Statue of Liberty so there's not really anyone around. But MJ almost dies, and let's not forget the multiversal intrusion that Strange can't contain.

Everything bad that happens in this movie is a result of Peter's actions, whether it's asking Strange to cast the spell in the first place, and causing him to botch it (weak premise in my opinion but that's what we have), or freeing and assisting the bad guys so that they demolish Happy's place, he gets arrested, May dies, MJ almost dies, and infinite intruders almost make it into their reality.

If Norman had killed Tobey as well, you are trading Spider-Man for Green Goblin. Ok, no more Green Goblin because he's healed. Great. Too bad that's not the only super villain from that universe, but now there's no Spider-Man. So this idea that you can risk everything to redeem a person is bonkers. And that's why I'm not into this version of the Green Goblin, because he's pushing this sort of common sense, reasonable notion, and we're supposed to disagree with it because he's the bad guy.

It's sort of similar to Man of Steel, where the Kent's tell Clark that he should consider letting his classmates drown and that "he doesn't owe anyone anything". The good guys are pushing forth some very un-heroic concepts. "We help people, that's what we do" rings hollow when people are dying to achieve "what we do".

[Anteros]

Errm…

Friendly reminder that it was Aunt May that convinced Peter to help the villains, not the other way around. His initial stance was ‘it’s not my problem, the best thing I can do is send everyone back home’ until she talked him out of it. She’s an adult, she made her own choice there.



And jumping in front of Green Goblin was very much Tobey’s decision, not Tom’s. He’s a veteran superhero at this point, he knows Goblin better than anyone else present, he knows the risks.

There's definitely some sort of theme going on about letting people like May make their own decisions about their safety. You can argue that she's an adult who makes her own choice that Tom respects....except the movie immediately contradicts this by having Tom not respect his friend's wishes to have their memories restored and be involved in his life.

[hungrycrow]

I think the lesson Peter learned isn't that it's acceptable to risk some lives if they're okay with it, it was that he should mitigate the risks as much as possible. His ultimate solution is to cut out his helpers and take all the risk himself. From a cold calculus perspective this still doesn't make sense, since he could save more people in the long run if he took fewer risks, but if he thought like that he wouldn't be a hero.

It's also notable that he isn't taking risks to save the Green Goblin, he's taking risks to save Norman Osborn. Same with all the other villains.He hears vaguely about how dangerous the Goblin is and sees Doc Ock in action, but mostly he sees them as just confused people lashing out. Separating the villains from the box is how he mitigates the danger, he just underestimates the danger. Remember that Goblin and the others are essentially risking their lives to backstab him, which is a little understandable that he wouldn't predict. And while he is very wrong about how dangerous they are, he is still right that underneath they're just damaged people worth saving.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Of course, she's not aware that it's not simply a homeless Norman that Peter is contending with, but highly powerful and dangerous super villains.

Objection: she was in that apartment with them and she's not blind. She personally witnessed Goblin beat her super-powered nephew up and then she still tried to take him on. Even if the version of the serum she was using had worked she was risking being killed or maimed. She could have run and she chose not to.



Had Tom simply whisked the villains back to their universes, there never would have been the opportunity to essentially trade Tobey's life for Norman's. Instead, he chooses to keep them around. Happy's place gets demolished (who knows how many people were hurt or killed in that fight scene). Of course the movie takes us over to the Statue of Liberty so there's not really anyone around. But MJ almost dies, and let's not forget the multiversal intrusion that Strange can't contain.

Multiversal intrusion was only an issue because Goblin blew up the box containing the spell, prior to that there doesn't seem to be any real time constraint.

And wasn't MJ only around to plummet to her almost-death because Ned's portal wasn't closing? That's hardly Peter's fault.



Everything bad that happens in this movie is a result of Peter's actions, whether it's asking Strange to cast the spell in the first place, and causing him to botch it (weak premise in my opinion but that's what we have), or freeing and assisting the bad guys so that they demolish Happy's place, he gets arrested, May dies, MJ almost dies, and infinite intruders almost make it into their reality.


Strange would have been well within his rights to say no and chose not to, or failing that explain to the kid what he was going to do, it's at least as much on him as Peter.

Happy was likely to get arrested anyway; Matt tells him to lawyer up over some missing Stark tech earlier in the movie.

I can't remember, did the reason why Happy had that fabricator box in his apartment (other than to advance the plot) ever come up?




If Norman had killed Tobey as well, you are trading Spider-Man for Green Goblin. Ok, no more Green Goblin because he's healed. Great. Too bad that's not the only super villain from that universe, but now there's no Spider-Man.

That's not how the MCU multiverse works.

Interference like this would cause the timeline to branch. So Cured!Norman is going to be in a separate branch from Tobey regardless, because in Tobey's past, that never happened. Also, Tobey's both obviously older than he was in Raimi 1 and remembers fighting Raimi Venom, so he's from farther down the timeline. He could have died and it wouldn't change his universe's fates of Goblin, Doc Ock, and Sandman because for his branch, all of that already happened.

Since Norman is now cured, and has advance knowledge of the existence of at least two future supervillains - Doc Ock is at least in his power to prevent, seeing as Dr. Octavius is one of his employees, and only got his hands on the tritium (sp?) because of Harry's support - which now wouldn't happen, as Norman didn't die and Harry wouldn't have to take over Oscorp.

[hungrycrow]

Since Norman is now cured, and has advance knowledge of the existence of at least two future supervillains - Doc Ock is at least in his power to prevent, seeing as Dr. Octavius is one of his employees, and only got his hands on the tritium (sp?) because of Harry's support - which now wouldn't happen, as Norman didn't die and Harry wouldn't have to take over Oscorp.
Hm, was Norman conscious enough to notice those details? He doesn't remember the things that he does as Green Goblin, so if Goblin was in control when he was working with Peter earlier Norman wouldn't have learned much about Doc Ock and Sandman.

I think another thing this movie missed was maybe showing what happened to everyone after they return to their respective universes. It would've been nice to see the results of all Peter's hardships.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Hm, was Norman conscious enough to notice those details? He doesn't remember the things that he does as Green Goblin, so if Goblin was in control when he was working with Peter earlier Norman wouldn't have learned much about Doc Ock and Sandman.

I think another thing this movie missed was maybe showing what happened to everyone after they return to their respective universes. It would've been nice to see the results of all Peter's hardships.

I’m not 100% when Norman was steering and when he was the Goblin (I’ve heard there’s some difference in his teeth, but I’d need to rewatch the movie to check that :smalltongue:) but when they’re all in cells he sees the tentacles, and is like, ‘What happened to you?’ I think that was Norman. So basically all he’d need to do is transfer Otto to any other project once those show up.

[Vahnavoi]

Norman forgetting what he does as the goblin is psychosomatic - he appears to not remember because he doesn't want to remember. His goblin persona calls him out on this in the first Spider-Man. And while it is the human enhancement formula that drives Norman off the edge, it is not clear if his mental instability is purely a factor of that. His son, Harry, starts mentally cracking in a similar manner in the first three movies, way before he is exposed to the formula. And, on the flipside, Harry later redeems himself despite being under influence of the formula. It is possible the Osborn family has some inherent tendency to this particular brand of mental illness.

This doesn't make a difference for events of the movie, either way you want the old man to take his meds.

[Tyndmyr]

ASM didn't have William DaFoe devouring every bit of scenery he got near, or Alfred Molina being Alfred Molina. The pair of them basically carried the entire villain squad on their back - Lizard had no screentime, Sandman got almost no screentime, and Electro just sort of existed without doing anything.

I would agree with this, there's a pretty clear hierarchy in terms of how awesome the villains are.


Green Goblin, Doc Oct top tier.
Electro mid tier.
Sandman, Lizard mostly just...there.

The first two are important to the story and gloriously acted. The movie wouldn't be the same without them. Electro is more interesting that his earlier performance, but honestly, there are only so many different villain rants about wanting power that you can listen to in the same film before sort of ignoring the less important ones. He's at least kind of important to the plot, and his motivations are consistent, so he's not actually a bad character, just...not on the same level.

Sandman's motivation is all over the place. Why does he initially help Spidey, then fight him? For someone with ostensibly a "get home to his daughter" goal, he is really, really terrible at pursuing it.

Lizard barely does anything, and if dropped entirely from the film, nothing would really change. He's never much of a combat challenge, doesn't get a lot of lines. He doesn't really hurt the film either, but one could forget about him without consequence.


So, I watched it again, and...okay, I still really like this film, and still consider it great. But on a rewatching, there are definitely some odd bits. Not enough to seriously detract from the film overall, but hey, there's enough for some fun nitpicking.


So, very early on they have some sort of Aunt May trying to convince Peter to save them. This feels...strange. I know they're setting up Aunt May in the Uncle Ben role, but this isn't a brand new Spiderman. Peter's been trying to save people for a while now, and while he may not always have an abundance of forethought, his heart is generally in the right place.

Basically, I already believe that Peter will want to save people once he realizes they're going to die. This all feels unnecessary.

Next up we have the Doc Ock fight. MIT lady takes an insanely long time to get out of a car. Yeah, there's the implication that the driver bailed on her, leaving the back doors locked, but reaching up and popping the lock isn't *that* slow. I fear she does not actually come off as all that intelligent as a result of this. Hardly a big deal...I've met some overly arrogant folks in college administrations for sure, this is more of an amusing thing to notice than a problem with disbelief.

Sandman's strange motivations have already been covered, so we'll skip ahead to, well, the big ol "take them all home and fix them" part. I have no idea why they brought with lizardman in a box truck and then left him outside. That just seems weird. Bringing them all home is clearly risky, but treating him differently is just odd...and doesn't lead to anything. He just claws his way out and escapes as everything goes awry, apparently by luck and good timing. He briefly joins the fight, but doesn't initiate it. It feels as if a subplot was cut here.

The strangeness continues into the fight. You've got visual continuity oddness, with Lizardman changing to Green Goblin in a jump cut during the latter "punch him down into the lobby" sequence. Slightly earlier, Green Goblin entirely changes costume the same way. I also don't recall Green Goblin being quite this physically beefy. I recall his flying and proclivity for weapons being generally more essential, and it feels odd with how strong we've established this Spidey to be. Are we really saying that an elderly gentleman with a mental health problem can trade punches with him? The armor counts for something, but the face isn't armored.

The visual continuity weirdness continues throughout the death scene. Aunt May acts entirely normal for an entire conversation, and then...reveals that she has apparently been gushing blood from her side this entire time and promptly dies. This is strange.

The Swat team is also frigging strange. They are basically moving in slow motion, despite a *lot* of events happening in front of them with no real movement on their part, despite them being in "move in" position. They don't care much about Happy driving directly between them and their direction of movement, nor do they appear to notice or care about any supervillains or the obviously injured woman, but they do just shoot Spiderman for no reason despite him obviously posing no threat...and not really moving or failing to respond to commands. I really don't know why they're here.

The tone of the movie changes a great deal once the other two show up. Of the two, I really like Garfield's spidey. He gets some of the best lines, his character is just great in context. This is all mostly fun, though the "all talking at once" feels slightly forced on a rewatch. The entrance scene is perhaps a little too hammy as well, with the spidermen talking about how this world's Peter needs their help. That feels, uh, okay. Neither of them apparently sought Spidey out, how do they even know what's going on? All of this happens over a fairly short time frame. You could probably cut or change a couple of words and it'd all be fine, though.

The final fight also has some weirdness with continuity. MJ is knocked off the tower by Green Goblin who flies upward cackling. Spidey jumps downward to catch her. The Green Goblin flies into Spidey from below to knock him out of the way. There's seriously a teleporter on this glider or something.

Oh, and side note, MJ seems to have apparently become far less decisive as a character. The MJ we know from the previous two movies probably should have hesitated a lot less to push the button over the apartment fight.

Toby's stab is, due to the way Aunt May's stabbing is handled, sort of whiplash. An abdominal stab wound is clearly treated as pretty lethal, so one at first thinks Toby's spidey is dying, but then...apparently it's not a big deal. There's a bit of humor here, and that's great, but the film is definitely playing pretty fast and loose with what constitutes a serious threat.

There is, of course, a lot of potential catgirls to kill with regards to the finale and the shift and what not, but I'm not all that irked about the details. More fun speculation than anything else. Anyways, that's my ramble on the topic.

[The Glyphstone]

Adrenaline is a hell of a drug, basically. She went after a supervillain with a fire axe then got buried under rubble, that part of the scene was more than believable to me.

[Dr.Samurai]

Yeah, the Aunt May prolonged death scene was definitely too much. She got hit by the glider right? There's no way you get hit by that glider and walk around as if everything is okay and it isn't obvious to others that you've lost half your torso. I've only seen the scene once, but when she was "okay" I thought "maybe the glider didn't hit her". But I'm pretty sure it did, and it was weird that she was still walking around and coherent and Peter was none the wiser.

Maybe I'm remembering it wrong?

[Tyndmyr]

Dr. Samurai:

You are remembering it correctly. The camera simply doesn't pan down to the wound site until after she falls down. But after it does, her entire side is soaked with blood.

Dunno, seems like it'd be noticeable. At least to Peter, even if not to her, somehow.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Sandman's motivation is all over the place. Why does he initially help Spidey, then fight him? For someone with ostensibly a "get home to his daughter" goal, he is really, really terrible at pursuing it.

You mean the initial scene with Electro? He thought when MCU!Spidey warped Electro back to the Sanctum that he’d murdered the guy.




Lizard barely does anything, and if dropped entirely from the film, nothing would really change. He's never much of a combat challenge, doesn't get a lot of lines. He doesn't really hurt the film either, but one could forget about him without consequence.


Can’t disagree here. He mostly seems to be there for the brief humor derived from peoples’ reactions to him.




Next up we have the Doc Ock fight. MIT lady takes an insanely long time to get out of a car. Yeah, there's the implication that the driver bailed on her, leaving the back doors locked, but reaching up and popping the lock isn't *that* slow. I fear she does not actually come off as all that intelligent as a result of this. Hardly a big deal...I've met some overly arrogant folks in college administrations for sure, this is more of an amusing thing to notice than a problem with disbelief.

Wasn’t her seatbelt jammed?





Sandman's strange motivations have already been covered, so we'll skip ahead to, well, the big ol "take them all home and fix them" part. I have no idea why they brought with lizardman in a box truck and then left him outside. That just seems weird. Bringing them all home is clearly risky, but treating him differently is just odd...and doesn't lead to anything. He just claws his way out and escapes as everything goes awry, apparently by luck and good timing. He briefly joins the fight, but doesn't initiate it. It feels as if a subplot was cut here.

I thought he wanted to be left behind, but I admit I don’t remember why.




I also don't recall Green Goblin being quite this physically beefy. I recall his flying and proclivity for weapons being generally more essential, and it feels odd with how strong we've established this Spidey to be. Are we really saying that an elderly gentleman with a mental health problem can trade punches with him? The armor counts for something, but the face isn't armored.

Don’t forget the serum that pushed him over the edge in the first place was specifically a performance enhancer being designed for military use. So he’s got Raimi!super soldier serum in his body.




Oh, and side note, MJ seems to have apparently become far less decisive as a character. The MJ we know from the previous two movies probably should have hesitated a lot less to push the button over the apartment fight.


Tend to agree here.

[hungrycrow]

You mean the initial scene with Electro? He thought when MCU!Spidey warped Electro back to the Sanctum that he’d murdered the guy.

He might mean the fight at the Statue of Liberty. I'd guess Sandman wants to use the box himself to go home, but it's weird that he'd team up with the other villains who obviously don't want that, and also that he'd try to murder one of the Spider-men. [/S]



Wasn’t her seatbelt jammed?
When everyone on the bridge first starts fleeing she has a line about the door being locked, then Doc Ock talks to Peter for a bit, and then the fight starts and her car gets knocked around. Maybe she froze up when she saw Otto instead of fumbling around with a lock for 30 seconds?


Don’t forget the serum that pushed him over the edge in the first place was specifically a performance enhancer being designed for military use. So he’s got Raimi!super soldier serum in his body.
The Green Goblin definitely has super strength in the first movie. He holds up a trolley full of children with one hand during the climax.

[Traab]

Green Goblin also matched fist to fist strength with toby in the first film iirc. As in catching his thrown punch then punishing spiderman with a counter. Doesnt matter too much if that was him, the suit, or a combination of the two, dude is strong.

[Velaryon]

Finally saw this the night before last, and got caught up to the topic. Overall I liked it, was impressed that they crammed so much into this without turning it into a total confused mess, but also can see how it's bulging at the seams and starting to pop a stitch or two.



You mean the initial scene with Electro? He thought when MCU!Spidey warped Electro back to the Sanctum that he’d murdered the guy.

Yes, Sandman's motives make sense during his initial scene. After that, he seems to just become surly and untrusting of everybody, and for the rest of his film his motivations seem really muddled.



I thought he wanted to be left behind, but I admit I don’t remember why.

One of the other villains (I forget which) says Lizard wanted to remain in the truck until they were ready. I don't remember if it was specifically said out loud, but I feel like the justification was "to avoid being seen" which doesn't hold up really well given Doc Ock and Sandman are nearly as obvious and out of place as he is. My takeaway is that Lizard never intended to be cured and was selling an obvious line of BS so he could attempt to escape while everyone else was inside.