pathfinder 1e acrobatics and attacks of opportunity

[rel]

The last time I looked at the numbers, acrobatics didn't really work for dodging attacks of opportunity in pathfinder 1e.

A level 20 fighter would have 20 ranks and might manage to get another 20 in assorted bonuses for a total of 40, meanwhile a CR 20 monster had a CMD in the high 50's.
A specialized build should be able to match that, but just taking acrobatics as one of your skills so you could effectively maneuver didn't seem worthwhile.

Did this ever stop being an issue due to errata, patch powers or what have you?

[Kurald Galain]

Did this ever stop being an issue due to errata, patch powers or what have you?

It's not an issue because 99% of the game isn't played at level 20. You're assuming that these numbers are typical for lower levels as well, but they're not.

[Rynjin]

Yes, it requires investment beyond the bare minimum to work on enemies with the biggest CMDs.

Same as any other skill; your basic investment into Perception won't be able to beat specialized Stealth enemies, etc.

[rel]

It's not an issue because 99% of the game isn't played at level 20. You're assuming that these numbers are typical for lower levels as well, but they're not.

I just gave 20 as an example, the problem happened in the mid levels as well.
level 8 CMD's in the high 20's
level 12 in the high 30's
level 16 in the high 40's

the numbers increased linearly and the amount of bonus required on top of rank seemed extreme.




Yes, it requires investment beyond the bare minimum to work on enemies with the biggest CMDs.

Same as any other skill; your basic investment into Perception won't be able to beat specialized Stealth enemies, etc.

I guess a bonus of +20 on top of ranks doesn't seem like a basic investment to me. Unless your build is explicitly dex focused, I at least struggle to make up the difference without investing multiple feats or traits and convincing my GM to allow custom magic items or 3rd party sources.

Meanwhile, to use your perception example, traps cap out at a DC of 34 for 9th level spells and I haven't seen mechanical trap DC's get that high. While almost all monster stealth is defeated by the level 1 wizards bat familiar.

Acrobatics seems oddly singled out to me.

[Zanos]

It's not acrobatics being singled out, it's that CMB/CMD for monsters in PF1e is insanely bloated, much like 3.5 grapple checks. Athletics keys off that bloated CMD, hence the problem. Melee monsters usually have very high physical ability scores and benefit from being larger than medium size, so this bloats their numbers and makes using anything that goes against their CMD extremely ineffective unless your character is very optimized against that check.

[DrMartin]

I logged in to type pretty much exactly what Zanos typed. With an additional suggestion: at my table we let dodge bonuses and deflection bonuses to AC add to your acrobatics roll to avoid AoO, and the DC is 10 + CMB instead of CMD. We've found it skews the math in favour of acrobatics - still requires some extra investment to use it reliably though, just ranks is not going to cut it. So it always feels like a clutch move when you have to pull it off.

[Rynjin]

I guess a bonus of +20 on top of ranks doesn't seem like a basic investment to me. Unless your build is explicitly dex focused, I at least struggle to make up the difference without investing multiple feats or traits and convincing my GM to allow custom magic items or 3rd party sources.

That +20 is what makes it so you can succeed, yes. And Acrobatics being a Dex based skill...again, yes, that is what is going to make it better. If you have a +40 bonus, that gives you a solid chance against all but the highest CMDs at CR 20. At higher than 40, your chances obviously get commensurately better.


Meanwhile, to use your perception example, traps cap out at a DC of 34 for 9th level spells and I haven't seen mechanical trap DC's get that high. While almost all monster stealth is defeated by the level 1 wizards bat familiar.

Traps cap out, Stealth doesn't. A classed NPC specialized in Stealth can easily outstrip most Perception checks the average PC can throw out. Even some monsters you wouldn't expect have Stealth in the 30s; one CR 20 monster has a +45 bonus.

[Thunder999]

It's just a consequence of how CMD scale. I'll take it over the trivial fixed DCs of 3.5 that made it pretty much impossible to stop someone with tumble ignoring your entire reach+AoO build

[rel]

I logged in to type pretty much exactly what Zanos typed. With an additional suggestion: at my table we let dodge bonuses and deflection bonuses to AC add to your acrobatics roll to avoid AoO, and the DC is 10 + CMB instead of CMD. We've found it skews the math in favour of acrobatics - still requires some extra investment to use it reliably though, just ranks is not going to cut it. So it always feels like a clutch move when you have to pull it off.

Ah, thank you I like those changes, especially the 10 + CMB variant.
Have you experimented with replacing CMD with 10 + CMB universally, and if so how did you find it?

[DrMartin]

Ah, thank you I like those changes, especially the 10 + CMB variant.
Have you experimented with replacing CMD with 10 + CMB universally, and if so how did you find it?

we haven't experimented with that across the board, no. But I expect that except creature with abysmally low Dexterity or Strength it wouldn't make a huge difference - looking at monster average stats suggest a total lower by 2 or 3 points on average.
This small bump does work together with the other part of our house rule, as now a ring of deflection, as well as feats like Dodge or Mobility (or its talent counterpart, we use Spheres of Might), as well as the Total Defense action - all these together actually help you avoiding AoO under our rules.