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View Full Version : Lycanthrope ECL (please read first post)



Fiery Diamond
2007-11-18, 07:13 PM
I've been wondering and pondering about this for some time -- why do you need to add the animal HD to the LA to get the ECL for lycanthropes? I understand that this is common practice when determining ECL for any creature, but why? I mean, a hit die isn't equivalent to a class level by any stretch of the imagination.

Take, as an extreme example, a wizard. A 1st level wizard with 20 HD with full HP from every HD is in no way equal to a 20th level wizard, or even a 10th level wizard, or heck, even a 7th level wizard. Even if you had a wizard with 20 HD and all HD were for some reason full HP D12s it still wouldn't be equal to a 10th level wizard, let alone a 20th level wizard.

For a less extreme example, take the fighter. Even if you gave a level 1 fighter 20 full HP HDs, it wouldn't be equal to a level 20 fighter because of the loss of BAB and fighter bonus feats. So why should every animal HD count for ECL for a lycanthrope, or for any other creature?

In my opinion, it would make more sense to just increase the LA based on which animal the animal form of the lycanthrope is, but certainly not by as much as the HD of that animal is.

What do you think, fellow forumites?

-Fiery Diamond

Quietus
2007-11-18, 07:18 PM
The basic idea is that the LA is making up for certain qualities you gain (low-light, Wis+2, Iron Will, Scent, +2 NA, DR X/Silver), while the animal HD are to make up for the stat increases. Otherwise, a natural-born werebear, with its +18 to strength, +10 con, etc, is the same LA is the natural-born wererat, with its +6 dex and +4 con.

Fiery Diamond
2007-11-18, 07:36 PM
I see.

That has some validity - as I said, I don't think that the werebear and wererat should have the same LA, but I don't think the disparity should be based on HD like it is. If the purpose is to balance out based on stat bonuses, a different mechanic should be used. For example, a werebear and a weretiger both have 6 extra HD, but the weretiger has smaller bonus to Str (4) and Con (2) and only a slightly larger bonus to Dex(2). Yet, both have the same ECL. That doesn't make much sense.

I'm not sure how exactly the extra LA to replace the HD ECL bonus should be calculated, but I think something other than HD should be used. Anyone have any ideas? (and/or agree/disagree with me on this?)

- Fiery Diamond

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-18, 09:24 PM
Because HD are "nice LAs" or 1/2 LAs. They aren't as bed as LA because you actually get something from them, but they are worse than class levels. I've always seen them as an in between. So the race that is a "high" LA+2, give him 1RHD. For those that are a low LA+2, give them 1 or 2 RHD and LA+1.

TheElfLord
2007-11-18, 09:36 PM
stuff

You are right. Racial hit dice do not equal class levels in power. At the same time, they need to count as something to avoid overpowered low level characters.

What about having racial hit dice adding 1/2 to ECL? (Sort of like the equivilent of a non associated class for ECL instead of CR)

Quietus
2007-11-18, 09:40 PM
I see.

That has some validity - as I said, I don't think that the werebear and wererat should have the same LA, but I don't think the disparity should be based on HD like it is. If the purpose is to balance out based on stat bonuses, a different mechanic should be used. For example, a werebear and a weretiger both have 6 extra HD, but the weretiger has smaller bonus to Str (4) and Con (2) and only a slightly larger bonus to Dex(2). Yet, both have the same ECL. That doesn't make much sense.

I'm not sure how exactly the extra LA to replace the HD ECL bonus should be calculated, but I think something other than HD should be used. Anyone have any ideas? (and/or agree/disagree with me on this?)

- Fiery Diamond

Yes, but compare : Bears have, among their special attacks, Improved Grab. Tigers, on the other hand, have not only Improved Grab, but Pounce and Rake. These are also things that those racial HD account for.

Bender
2007-11-19, 02:09 AM
If you don't like the racial hit dice, look at the savage progression (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031114a). You can only take a few if you want.
+12 AB for 6HD is not too bad, I think, along with all the other abilities, stat increases and feats, I'd prefer it above 6 levels in fighter/ranger/barbarian.

TheOOB
2007-11-19, 02:17 AM
The trouble with Lycanthropes is that animals where not made with lycanthropes considered. Some animals have really good attributes and abilities for their HD, and some have really poor. The dog, for example, makes a suprisingly good lycanthrope, getting very good abilities for only 1 HD, while a Porpoise has very similar stat adjustments but 1 more HD.

Fishy
2007-11-19, 02:31 AM
The trouble with Lycanthropes is that animals where not made with lycanthropes considered. Some animals have really good attributes and abilities for their HD, and some have really poor. The dog, for example, makes a suprisingly good lycanthrope, getting very good abilities for only 1 HD, while a Porpoise has very similar stat adjustments but 1 more HD.

To say nothing of the entomanothrope (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040621a) template and That Damn Crab.

Essentially, the player classes are sort-of-kind-of-give-them-points-for-trying balanced, and Monsters just aren't. This is why polymorph/Wild Shape/Alter Self are broken, and Lycanthropy doesn't make much sense.