Sorcerers suffering increased casting time for metamagic is bad design

[Elves]

Metamagic feats aren't any "better" for sorcs than wizards. They represent the exact same optionality increase for each class, and the cost in each case is the same.

The flexibility difference that exists in the use of these feats is simply the difference in the flexibility of their casting mechanics, something for which sorcs are already penalized through slower advancement and limited spells known.

The devs seem to have misperceived metamagic feats as adding a surplus of flexibility for sorcs as compared to wizards, but that's incorrect -- the only flexibility difference in their use is the one that always existed. Metamagic feats don't increase that gap.

Thus, the penalty for sorcs using metamagic (greater casting time) is redundant -- punishing them twice for their core mechanic.

[Wintermoot]

Metamagic feats aren't any "better" for sorcs than wizards. They represent the exact same optionality increase for each class, and the cost in each case is the same -- higher level spell slots.

The flexibility difference that exists in the use of these feats is simply the difference in the flexibility of their casting mechanics, something for which sorcs are already penalized through slower advancement and limited spells known.

The devs seem to have misperceived metamagic feats as adding a surplus of flexibility for sorcs as compared to wizards, but that's incorrect -- the only flexibility difference in their use is the one that always existed. Metamagic feats don't increase that gap.

Thus, the penalty for sorcs using metamagic (greater casting time) is redundant -- punishing them twice for their core mechanic.

The part you are missing is that wizards need to choose at the beginning of the day to memorize "Maximized Fireball" whereas the Sorcerer can decide on the fly during a combat to Maximize the fireball. That's the flexibility offset the lengthening of casting time is there for.

Or maybe you didn't miss it and you just don't agree with it. In which case, as is everyone, you are entitled to your incorrect opinion. :)

[Elves]

Having to decide whether to prepare fireball or empowered fireball is no different than having to decide whether to prepare fireball or haste, and getting to spontaneously choose between fireball and empowered fireball is no different from getting to spontaneously choose between fireball or haste.


Or maybe you didn't miss it and you just don't agree with it. In which case, as is everyone, you are entitled to your incorrect opinion. :)
I'm saying it's a misperception. There is a flexibility difference in the use of the feats, but it's just the inherent difference between the two casting mechanics -- something sorcs are already penalized for -- not anything extra.

[Metastachydium]

Hsomething sorcs are already penalized for

And penalized some four times over, for that matter (slower progression, fewer spells, fewer skill points, no bonus feats). More thorough nerfing is the last thing they need.

[Elves]

The part you are missing is that wizards need to choose at the beginning of the day to memorize "Maximized Fireball" whereas the Sorcerer can decide on the fly during a combat to Maximize the fireball. That's the flexibility offset the lengthening of casting time is there for.

to illustrate point @Wintermoot, let me alter your quote:


The part you are missing is that wizards need to choose at the beginning of the day to memorize "Fireball" whereas the Sorcerer can decide on the fly during a combat to cast the fireball. That's the flexibility offset the lengthening of casting time is there for.

If you want to argue that sorcs should always cast spells as a full-round action due to the flexibility difference, you could. But there's no reason to add it as an extra penalty for using metamagic because the dynamic is the same.

[Kurald Galain]

Metamagic feats aren't any "better" for sorcs than wizards.

But they are. Unless we're talking about the perfect know-everything Schrodinger wizard from the forums, being able to decide on the fly whether to use metamagic is so much more powerful than prepping it an advance. In any given round of combat, a sorcerer with two metamagic feats has effectively almost four times as many options available.

[Metastachydium]

In any given round of combat, a sorcerer with two metamagic feats has effectively almost four times as many options available.

I'd rather say they have four ways to cast some of the few spells they get. Also, at almost any given level, a sorcerer is likely to have fewer metamagic feats than the wizard, because the wizard gets some for free.

[Elves]

Unless we're talking about the perfect know-everything Schrodinger wizard from the forums, being able to decide on the fly whether to use metamagic is so much more powerful than prepping it an advance.

As above...

Unless we're talking about the perfect know-everything Schrodinger wizard from the forums, being able to decide on the fly whether to use metamagic is so much more powerful than prepping it an advance.


In any given round of combat, a sorcerer with two metamagic feats has effectively almost four times as many options available.
How does a metamagic feat give a sorcerer more options than a wizard? Can't they both apply its effect to any spell they know?

[Seerow]

But they are. Unless we're talking about the perfect know-everything Schrodinger wizard from the forums, being able to decide on the fly whether to use metamagic is so much more powerful than prepping it an advance. In any given round of combat, a sorcerer with two metamagic feats has effectively almost four times as many options available.

This would be true if there's no cost to metamagic. But there is usually fairly steep relative to the benefit. Which is why most builds using it involve a bunch of resources reducing the costs

In practice most metamagic will apply only to a sunset of your spells known, and always the lower level spells.

Yeah it sounds impressive to think your empower spell feat doubled spells known for each level, but are you ever going to cast an empowered cantrip as a 2nd level spell? Probably not. And it'll never affect any buff or most of your utility spells.



It's also worth pointing out that 3.5 printed multiple ways to negate that penalty, with each new method becoming increasingly easier and more flexible. I'd hazard a guess that late 3.5 designers agree that increased casting time was a mistake.

[Telok]

A big part of the issue, i think, is the existance of the metamagic rods, various cost reducers, and some other side issues of sorcerers in direct comparison to wizards.

If you compare only the spellcasting, without the other stuff it does come off as a reasonable trade-off. Put the comparison as being between Summon 2, Summon 3, double duration Summon 2, and buffed Summon 2, on a 6th level caster with three 2nd slots and one 3rd slot. Prep vs spont becomes important and the metamagic flexabiliy to choose a 12 round spell, a summon with See Invis precast on it, or a higher powered summon is pretty big.

Its once you hand one caster infinite known spells, earlier spell access, daily swap-out, free feats, better use of rods, and the ability to use cost reducing feats, while denying all that to the other caster... then things are unfair. But that's not based on how you use metamagic with your casting.

[KillianHawkeye]

Don't we all already know that somebody at WotC hated the idea of Sorcerers and made sure to over-nerf them to discourage anyone from playing one? So of course it's bad design, it's bad on purpose.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

A spontaneous spell known is better than a prepared spell known (i.e., a spell written in a spellbook). This much is obvious. The problem for sorcerers isn't their base mechanic; it's the fact that they get higher level spells later and much, much fewer spells known. Metamagic effectively gives casters new "spells known" which are modified versions of their existing spells. If there was a 5th level spell called "Empowered Fireball" that a sorcerer got as an extra spell known without any restrictions, that would be better for the sorcerer than a wizard getting the "Empowered Fireball" spell in their spellbook for free.

That said, wizards know more spells. Therefore, when they learn a metamagic feat, they get to apply it in more potential ways. Who benefits more, then, really depends on practical specific stuff. I'd say that wizards benefit from out-of-combat metamagic like Extend Spell more, as they really just have to apply it once to each adventuring day buff - of course, the casting time doesn't matter here. However, any metamagic that a wizard wouldn't normally prepare, or that you'd have to use on the same spell a lot (such as combat stuff) is better for the sorcerer once you get rid of the casting time increase.

All that said, the sorc could use a buff relative to its prep casting cousin, and like Seerow said it seems like the late designers agreed.

[rel]

The designers realised this and tried to address the issue with later sorc only spells like arcane fusion and spellsurge.

[Zanos]

It is bad design because the sorcerer's casting mechanic isn't good enough to warrant a disadvantage like this.

But metamagic feats are absolutely better for spontaneous casters, because they effectively expand your spells known. A wizard usually has no reason to take heighten because there's little cost for him to take spells at every level that can target every defense. But a sorcerer can get value out of it because he can take a handful of spells that target different defenses and heighten or use other metamagic on them to get more value out of his higher level slots with his limited spells known.

So they're better for the same reason arcane disciple or extra spell are better for casters with limited spells known.

[Elves]

But metamagic feats are absolutely better for spontaneous casters, because they effectively expand your spells known. A wizard usually has no reason to take heighten because there's little cost for him to take spells at every level that can target every defense.
As GoodbyeSoberDay said above, if we count [x metamagic feat] spell as a different spell, then each metamagic feat expands the wizard's options by way more than it does the sorc's. What you end up with is the same thing: a wizard with way more options who has to prepare ahead of time and a sorc with fewer options who can cast spontaneously.


So they're better for the same reason arcane disciple or extra spell are better for casters with limited spells known.
In contrast to MM feats, Extra Spell gives a fixed number of extra options, so the option differential between the sorc and wizard is proportionately less each time they both take it. It also does something wizard can already do but sorc can't, so of course it's useless to wiz. By contrast MM feats add new functionality to both classes.

I see your point that certain MM feats can reduce your need for higher-level known spells but I'm not sure how broadly true that is. In the case of SOL/SODs higher level spells usually have a nastier effect, not just a higher DC. Even damage spells often have qualities beyond pure damage figures + CL caps that can reduce effectiveness of metamagic (CL 15th maximized lesser orb of fire vs orb of fire for an example of both).

[Zanos]

As GoodbyeSoberDay said above, if we count [x metamagic feat] spell as a different spell, then each metamagic feat expands the wizard's options by way more than it does the sorc's. What you end up with is the same thing: a wizard with way more options who has to prepare ahead of time and a sorc with fewer options who can cast spontaneously.
They expand the wizards options more, but the wizard has little need for more options. Why take heighten when the wizard can just learn a better spell for a few hundred gold? Why take empower when the wizard can just take a spell with a higher dc and a higher damage cap for a few hundred gold?

Being able to use MM on the fly is also just an objective advantage. A wizard can't decide to use heightened glitterdust instead of cloud kill because he's fighting an undead creature unless he knows in advance.



In contrast to MM feats, Extra Spell gives a fixed number of extra options, so the option differential between the sorc and wizard is proportionately less each time they both take it. It also does something wizard can already do but sorc can't, so of course it's useless to wiz. By contrast MM feats add new functionality to both classes.
The sorcerer is starving and the wizard is a glutton. Feeding the wizard does not help him as much, even if you give him more food.

I would also argue that in most cases, without substantial MM reduction abuse, metamagic does not allow the wizard truly new capabilities. His functionally unlimited spell access means he can just learn and prepare a higher level spell that does whatever he needs. He doesn't need to worry about situations where the spells he knows could be useless in certain situations. As an example, imagine a sorcerer only knows fireball and the party needs to fight a red dragon. Having heighten or empower for glittetdust or magic missile might be nice because then the sorcerer can still use his 3rd level slots and get some effect out of them. The wizard just doesn't prepare fireball, and uses a real 3rd level spell, which is probably more powerful. The wizard doesn't need metamagic feats because his class already has options for changing his spell load outs so his slots are always relevant, unless he is surprised.

In the event the party is surprised by immunities/resistances/high saves, being able to on the fly heighten or empower is a huge advantage. If a wizard has two fireballs and the party is ambushed by fire giants, those slots are completely dead. He doesn't have the option to convert them to something relevant. The sorcerer who only knows fireball at 3rd level can on the fly throw out an empowered or heightened whatever with those slots.

Does this mean that sorcerer is a better class? In most cases, no. But it's interactions with metamagic are certainly advantageous.


I see your point that certain MM feats can reduce your need for higher-level known spells but I'm not sure how broadly true that is. In the case of SOL/SODs higher level spells usually have a nastier effect, not just a higher DC. Even damage spells often have qualities beyond pure damage figures + CL caps that can reduce effectiveness of metamagic (CL 15th maximized lesser orb of fire vs orb of fire for an example of both).
Higher levels spells are still better because they are higher level spells, and that's why wizard is a better class. The wizard does not need metamagic as much because he has ample access to high level spells. The sorcerer doesn't, so he gets more value.

Tl;Dr metamagic is better for sorcerer's because they are worse than wizards.

[Maat Mons]

Personally, I think many metamagic feats are bad game design to start with. If you cast a damage-dealing spell out of a higher-level spell slot, it should deal more damage. You shouldn't have to spend feats on Empower, Heighten, et al. to be able to gain that benefit.

This ties into a deeper problem. 3.5 inherited a casting system designed for prepared casters. And spontaneous casters were grafted on without any adjustments to the base magic system to accommodate them. For a Cleric, Summon Monster being implemented as 9 different spells is a complete nonissue. For Wizards it's a minor inconvenience. For Sorcerers it puts them in the position of potentially spending 9 spells known on what really should have been one spell with a scaling effect.

In many cases, spontaneous casters are taking metamagic feats to solve a problem that shouldn't have existed in the first place, and which prepared casters largely get to ignore.

I'd take this opportunity to praise 5e for fixing this issue with the magic system, and making each of a Sorcerer's spells known count for more... but 5e then overcompensated for this improvement by cutting their spells known in half... and then remade prepared casters as "like spontaneous casters, but you get more spells known, and also get to change your spells known every day."

[Luccan]

Even if we say Metamagic is better for Sorcerers than Wizards, I don't think that's a bad thing.

So, let's saySorcerers are better at Metamagic than Wizards. Wizards remain better at magic in almost every other way, getting higher level spells faster, being able to swap out their list for different scenarios, and more bonus feats. They also get more skills due to their casting stat, and picking a school specialization generally makes them even better despite losing out on other spells.

On top of that, the rule has an impact on every other spontaneous caster in the game, who presumably weren't the main targets of the rule (especially originally when the only other spont. caster was Bard). So it's a poorly constructed nerf at that.

[Gruftzwerg]

How does a metamagic feat give a sorcerer more options than a wizard? Can't they both apply its effect to any spell they know?

It not about having more options. It's to penalize both of em.

When a wizard picks metamagic, his original burden to prepare the right spells get worse. A wizard has to show better foresight by picking the metamagic feat to profit from it.

Sorcerer doen't have the problem. If they wouldn't be penalized in any way, they would have it better than wizards. Because they don't need to show more foresight and get a straight power increase. Imho that is the reason for the casting time penalty.

And there are multiple ways to get rid of it (the longer casting time) or work around and bypass it. ACF, feats, Arcane Fusion, PRC (e.g. Escalation Mage)...

Imho sorcerer can even become much better at metamagic when you invest the required resources for it. It all depends on the build in question.

Imho people have a hard time to see the flexibility of Sorcerers (as the example in this thread reflects) most people think about empower and maximize (and some Heighten) first when it comes to metamagic. Most blasters build don't need flexibility. It's easy to decide for a wizard on what spell(lvl) he should use metamagic in this chase.
But when it comes to things like "still spell, silent spell, invisible spell" it looks different. These things are much more of situational use. And here the Sorcerer shines.
Yo realize the enemy has true sight? > Invisible Spell Illusion
You get stuck into a verbal conflict that might escalate? > still spell silent spell charm on the leader

Imho both spontaneous and prepared casting has they ups and downs. It all depends on the situation and the build (how much focus on metamagic the build has). Neither is better imho, they just have different strengths.

[Mordante]

Personally, I think many metamagic feats are bad game design to start with. If you cast a damage-dealing spell out of a higher-level spell slot, it should deal more damage. You shouldn't have to spend feats on Empower, Heighten, et al. to be able to gain that benefit.

This ties into a deeper problem. 3.5 inherited a casting system designed for prepared casters. And spontaneous casters were grafted on without any adjustments to the base magic system to accommodate them. For a Cleric, Summon Monster being implemented as 9 different spells is a complete nonissue. For Wizards it's a minor inconvenience. For Sorcerers it puts them in the position of potentially spending 9 spells known on what really should have been one spell with a scaling effect.

In many cases, spontaneous casters are taking metamagic feats to solve a problem that shouldn't have existed in the first place, and which prepared casters largely get to ignore.

I'd take this opportunity to praise 5e for fixing this issue with the magic system, and making each of a Sorcerer's spells known count for more... but 5e then overcompensated for this improvement by cutting their spells known in half... and then remade prepared casters as "like spontaneous casters, but you get more spells known, and also get to change your spells known every day."

I 100% agree with this. But then again. I don't think we need to buff spell casters. Fighters, Monks, Warlocks, etc are already gimped compared to most spell casters.

[danielxcutter]

Sorcerers being weaker than Wizards isn't because aside from metamagic and slower progression spontaneous casting is strictly worse than prepared casting - a Wizard who prepares the exact same spells that the Sorcerer knows is almost always at a disadvantage.

The thing is, the argument is better phrased as the advantages of Wizard casting as a whole outweigh the disadvantages compared to Sorcerer if you're willing to put in the effort.

Prepared casters need a lot of bookkeeping, and spontaneous casting is honestly easier to play because all you have to do keep track of is choose what spells you know and how many slots per spell level you have left.

However, prepared casters have the distinctive advantage of having a vast number of options to choose from day to day. Here's an example - I'm playing a RKV in a Red Hand of Doom game. Our last fight was against a green dragon and a bunch of hobgoblin soldiers. Since I knew what we'd be fighting, I spent all my slots on buffing the party, since I'd get much more mileage from boosting and protecting them instead of using them to hurt the dragon. The day before that while we were getting there, I prepared half a dozen Endure Elements because we were travelling through a hot and humid jungle. While Cleric casting is a bit different from Wizard casting, I simply wouldn't have been able to completely switch up my loadout if I'd been a spontaneous caster with a limited number of spells known.

In practice it'd be unfair to say that a Wizard is always strictly better than a Sorcerer in every situation, because even if the optimization ceiling is high enough for that to be possible it's just not fun for most people to put in the effort for that. But as a spontaneous caster, it's hard to be completely satisfied with your spell list because there's always a power or two that'd be really good to have but you simply don't have room to take it.


I 100% agree with this. But then again. I don't think we need to buff spell casters. Fighters, Monks, Warlocks, etc are already gimped compared to most spell casters.

Oh sure, but considering that even the "prepared" casters have quasi-spontaneous casting in that edition Sorcerers really got screwed over compared to Wizards.

[Gruftzwerg]

the thread reminds me of my TO davati sorcerer sideproject which heavily relies on metamagic abuse :smallbiggrin:
maybe some day it will see the light of this forum^^

[Kurald Galain]

In practice it'd be unfair to say that a Wizard is always strictly better than a Sorcerer in every situation, because even if the optimization ceiling is high enough for that to be possible it's just not fun for most people to put in the effort for that.
Yes. On the skill level of the average player, sorcerers are stronger than wizards. On the skill level of the diehard optimizer and/or GITP forum user, wizards are stronger than sorcerers. That's... actually pretty good design, if you ask me.


When a wizard picks metamagic, his original burden to prepare the right spells get worse. A wizard has to show better foresight by picking the metamagic feat to profit from it.

Sorcerer doen't have the problem. If they wouldn't be penalized in any way, they would have it better than wizards. Because they don't need to show more foresight and get a straight power increase. Imho that is the reason for the casting time penalty.
That is precisely right.

[danielxcutter]

I’d say needing to be a diehard optimizer is a bit of a stretch. Being able to switch out loadouts from day to day is pretty damn useful.

[Asmotherion]

Until you discover the spell Arcane Spellsurge together with Arcane Fusion, and realise the design actually benefits the Sorcerer. Honestly, this two spells make the Sorcerer as good as a Wizard IMO.

[Kurald Galain]

Until you discover the spell Arcane Spellsurge together with Arcane Fusion, and realise the design actually benefits the Sorcerer. Honestly, this two spells make the Sorcerer as good as a Wizard IMO.

Well, at level 14+ at least.

[danielxcutter]

Well, in burst potential the Sorcerer is going to beat out almost any Wizard that way. That’s not the reason Wizard is considered to be higher tier though.

[Gruftzwerg]

Until you discover the spell Arcane Spellsurge together with Arcane Fusion, and realise the design actually benefits the Sorcerer. Honestly, this two spells make the Sorcerer as good as a Wizard IMO.

As said, if the Sorcerer optimizes for it, he will be better at metamagic. But that doesn't change the reason why the wizard is T1 and the Sorcerer T2. And that is overall flexibility (due to no limit to spells known). Imho it is fine as it is. Wizards have it easier out of the box, but Sorcerer can optimize in a niche where they will easily overshadow any wizard in that niche. Add Escalation Mage on top of the mentioned options (to quicken spells without casting time nor spell level increase) and you can cast more spells per round then any similar wizard can dream off.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Hard disagree on sorcerers being better than wizards at lower optimization levels. At higher levels/optimization, maybe, because then you can use cheese to get spell access indirectly, and the sorcerer has better native options for things like action economy breaking. But at lower levels and lower optimization, you're relying on whatever is given by the base class.

tl;dr: At lower op levels, sorcerers aren't that much more durable, are for the most part flexible, and get higher level effects at a much slower pace.

Let's compare a level 5 human specialist wizard and a level 5 human sorcerer. At this level they have a 19 in their casting stat (18 base, no item, +1 level). I'm ignoring cantrips, ACFs, PrCs, and races/age categories that add to the casting stat, all of which if included would favor the wizard to some degree.
The sorcerer has 12 spell slots (7, 5), same as the wizard (5, 4, 3), and of course the wizard's slots lean higher-level, including precious 3rd level effects the sorcerer cannot yet produce. The sorcerer knows 6 spells (4, 2) to the wizard's automatic 15 (9, 4, 2) plus potential additions (pretty cheap, even at this level).

Level them up to 9. They both have a 22 in their casting stat (18 base, +2 level, +2 stat).
The sorcerer has 27 total spell slots (8, 7, 7, 5) to the wizard's 25 (7, 6, 5, 4, 3), with the same number of level 3+ slots (12). The sorcerer knows 14 spells (5, 4, 3, 2) compared to the wizard's automatic 23 (9, 4, 4, 4, 2) plus any cheap additions.

At any level the wizard has more bonus feats and more skill points as well. In terms of bookkeeping, it is for sure more of a hassle, but as we see from the famous practical op guides, you usually pick a "general purpose" list and just prep that day-to-day, and that works just fine. If you have specific intel, you can swap it out, but you don't have to painstakingly optimize your spell selection every morning to out-pace a low-mid op sorcerer. This why a guy like Treantmonk loved focused specialization so much; in Combat-as-Sport-style mid-op play, the size and scope of the general-purpose prep list is more important than potential swap options.

Now you might say "those are odd levels," and I'd say "turns out, odd levels are pretty common." But even if you look at even levels, it makes a mockery of the sorcerer's benefit of spontaneity, because they only know one high level spell. A wizard with one high-level slot left still has the same high-level flexibility as a fresh sorcerer. In part because of this, the wizard is still better on net in those even levels. Consider 6th level:
The sorcerer has 17 (7, 6, 4) slots to the wizard's 14 (5, 5, 4), with the same number of level 3 slots. The sorcerer knows 7 spells (4, 2, 1) to the wizard's automatic 17 (9, 4, 4), meaning the wizard starts the day with up to four times as many third-level options prepared. Second level isn't much better, given the sorc can only spontaneously pick from 2 options. The sorcerer does have a net advantage casting first-level spells but it pales in comparison to the wizard's higher-level advantages.

I've long thought that one way to "fix" the sorcerer, aside from PF-style bloodlines adding thematic spells known, is simply to increase their spell progression by a level. There is no real reason for them to lag the wizard in spell advancement, and it creates the pronounced odd-level issue I pointed out.

[Kurald Galain]

In terms of bookkeeping, it is for sure more of a hassle,
Well, there you go. That is precisely the problem, yes.


but as we see from the famous practical op guides,
The average D&D player doesn't read guides. So yeah, for the average D&D player, sorcerer > wizard.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Well, there you go. That is precisely the problem, yes.No, it isn't. The fact that the wizard player has to track individual spell preps over the course of an adventuring day may (or may not) be annoying to "the average player," but it does not have any effect on the strength of the character.


The average D&D player doesn't read guides. So yeah, for the average D&D player, sorcerer > wizard.That doesn't follow at all. The point is that even the mid-op guides assume you're just using a standard list on most days. And even if you're not optimizing your list each day, the wizard still comes out well ahead as I demonstrated.

[Metastachydium]

Sorcerer is quite objectively worse. It just happens to be easier.

[Zanos]

Well, there you go. That is precisely the problem, yes.
I think it's okay for classes that are more work to be mechanically stronger. Rewarding system mastery is a feature, not a bug. Many video games even have characters that can only be well handled by expert players.

[Hua]

Why is the extra time that big a deal? That on the occasions you use it you lose your Move action for the round? It is not like this is making it a One Round casting time. It is making the sorcerer work under the same restrictions as a fighter taking a full attack.

On those occasions when the sorcerer really needs to keep moving it limits you, but that probably is not very often. You can still do your 5 foot step for some movement.

[Zanos]

It's not a huge problem usually, but having a move action is pretty nice, since it lets you position before or after casting, which can be necessary to get range for many spells, and the correct angles for some, like a cone or line. The other problem is that you basically can't use metamagic with spells that already have longer casting times, since it starts adding additional rounds to spells like summons or sleep.

If all you want to do is throw metamagic fireballs that have a range measured in hundreds of feet than it's probably not an issue.

[danielxcutter]

And full-action casting delays the spell’s effect until the next round I think?

[Maat Mons]

A casting time of one full round means the spell takes effect at the start of your next turn. But a casting time of a full-round action means the spell still takes effect on your turn.

[danielxcutter]

Ah, I see.

Still pretty annoying that it prevents you from using Quicken though.

[Darg]

Ah, I see.

Still pretty annoying that it prevents you from using Quicken though.

Played a game where a sorcerer casting a quickened spell was a move action. Thought it worked well enough.

[Gnaeus]

PF fixes the quicken problem by saying that spontaneous casters can use quicken normally. It wouldn’t hurt anything to backport.

[Zanos]

Rapid Metamagic can always be taken at 9 to remove the weakness, but spending a feat on it sure does feel bad.

On the other hand, you might not want the feat because Arcane Spellsurge combines very nicely with increased casting time from applying metamagic to spells.

[danielxcutter]

Rapid Metamagic can always be taken at 9 to remove the weakness, but spending a feat on it sure does feel bad.

On the other hand, you might not want the feat because Arcane Spellsurge combines very nicely with increased casting time from applying metamagic to spells.

It’s a dilemma, isn’t it? I guess Metamagic Specialist doesn’t preclude that.

Other spontaneous casters are stuck with taking the feat though.

[Asmotherion]

As said, if the Sorcerer optimizes for it, he will be better at metamagic. But that doesn't change the reason why the wizard is T1 and the Sorcerer T2. And that is overall flexibility (due to no limit to spells known). Imho it is fine as it is. Wizards have it easier out of the box, but Sorcerer can optimize in a niche where they will easily overshadow any wizard in that niche. Add Escalation Mage on top of the mentioned options (to quicken spells without casting time nor spell level increase) and you can cast more spells per round then any similar wizard can dream off.
I would like to add to that the Prestige Class "Mage of the Arcane Order" that allows the sorcerer to match the versatility of the wizard. It's a pain to qualify for though, but the benefits are worth it.

This is added as referance for Sorcerer Optimisation Purposes.

[Aquillion]

But they are. Unless we're talking about the perfect know-everything Schrodinger wizard from the forums, being able to decide on the fly whether to use metamagic is so much more powerful than prepping it an advance. In any given round of combat, a sorcerer with two metamagic feats has effectively almost four times as many options available.
This is certainly true; if we just let Sorcerers apply metamagic to their spells as they will at casting time with no costs, metamagic would definitely be better for them than it is for wizards. They'd effectively increase their options on-tap dramatically.

But is that a problem? That is, would it be so good for them that it would break something? I don't agree. The fact is that in low-optimization games, metamagic generally isn't very good in the first place outside of a handful of things - a Sorcerer throwing around on-the-fly maximized or even quickened fireballs is not going to break anything. And it's not like they're getting most of this for free - they have no bonus feats, so the feat tax is higher, and they're still paying with higher-level spell slots.

(I'm also not sure I agree with your argument that sorcerers are better in low-optimization games, though we might have different visions of "low optimization." Getting spells a level later is a huge deal.)

Like, yeah, Sorcerers would want metamagic more, but so what? Would it make them overpowered to the point where it breaks the game? Would they become strictly better than wizards or something? I don't think they would.

The classes aren't perfectly balanced against each other in the first place - they can't be while keeping them so different. What matters is that they're all distinct, fun to play, and that the imbalance doesn't reach the point where it interferes with this (a problem 3.5e does have elsewhere.) Giving sorcerers spontaneous metamagic makes them fun to play (and is distinct because the implications of it are so different than for wizards, allowing them to use metamagic to more easily stretch their limited spells known), while clearly not being so severe that it would cause problems - it is nowhere near the gap between other classes; even between Sorcerers and Wizards, the most similar classes in the game, this wouldn't really matter nearly as much as their other differences.

I feel like - like a lot of 3.5e's odd design and balance choices - the issue here is technically, mathematically real, but does not, from a gameplay perspective, matter enough to justify the heavy-handed fix we have now. Just let Sorcerers cast metamagic spontaneously; they will be happy and will, yes, want metamagic feats more, but nothing will really break.