[3.5] Master of Flies Build

[Thurbane]

So, considering an NPC build, and I want entry into MoF at ECL 6.

I'm looking at a Henegyokai (Crab) for thematic reasons.

Entry reqs are Quick Change feat (SS version, not Eberron version, so Dex 15+), along with Escape Artist 5 ranks and Knowledge (nature) 8 ranks.

Are there any front loaded classes to grab both of these skills?

Ranger 2/Rogue 3 works, but I'm wondering if there's anything more optimal? Factotum 5, maybe?

AFAIK, there's hasn't been an Iron Chef round for MoF?

Usual sources for my table: no PF, no 3rd party, no Kalamar, no Ravenloft, no Dragonlance (except campaign setting), preferably no Dragon Mag (except compendium), no Artificer, no Psionics, no Incarnum, no generic UA classes...

Cheers - T

[Dexam]

Are there any front loaded classes to grab both of these skills?

Ranger 2/Rogue 3 works, but I'm wondering if there's anything more optimal? Factotum 5, maybe?


Scout immediately springs to mind - it gets both these skills as class skills, and benefits from high Dex.

[JeminiZero]

Wilderness Rogue (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm). Also benefits from high Dex.

[Maat Mons]

It looks like the base classes which get Escape Artist as a class skill are Bard, Beguiler, Monk, Ninja, Rogue, Scout, Spellthief, and Swashbuckler. Oh, and I guess Battle Dancer, Jester, and Montebank.

Of those, Bard and Scout get Knowledge (Nature) natively. For some reason, I initially thought Beguiler, Rogue, and Spellthief could use the Skilled City-Dweller ACF to get access to Knowledge (Nature), but upon further investigation, I now realize that works the other way around.

[Doctor Despair]

For some reason, I initially thought Beguiler, Rogue, and Spellthief could use the Skilled City-Dweller ACF to get access to Knowledge (Nature), but upon further investigation, I now realize that works the other way around.

Just use the Unskilled Country-Denizen ACF!

[Gruftzwerg]

preferably no Dragon Mag (except compendium)

I would prefer it if you would slightly oversee this in favor of the Flexible Mind feat (from Dragon Mag). ;)

It lets you choose 2 skills as class skills for all classes (including future classes/prcs). This would enable you to freely pick your base class(es).

Imho a warlock (dip or full) is highly recommended. Because Eldricht Glaive is what you need (!).^^
Swarms don't use their standard action to attack and normally it remains unused (or gets converted into a 2nd movement action). They do their damage at the end of the turn to everything standing within their space. With Eldritch Glaive you get an option to attack "normally" in addition to the free swarm attack at the end of turn. Note that the glaive still has 0 reach (doubling 0 remains 0).
And if you should go warlock 6 you could even pick up Spider Shape which could fit your theme (and could also be used as entry for MoF if you should decide on another race).

[Saintheart]

Changeling Rogue: the ACF is the right race for the Savage Species Quick Change, and it gets all the Rogue skills "plus one Knowledge skill chosen when the first racial substitution level is taken." Also gets a ludicrous 10 + INT skill points.

EDIT: Never mind, you want to be a crab devil for some reason :smalltongue:

[Zarvistic]

You can do escape artist as cross class, so really anything that has knowledge: nature. I figure knowledge devotion is good for a master of flies anyway, so pretty much can enter with anything.

[bean illus]

You can do escape artist as cross class, so really anything that has knowledge: nature. I figure knowledge devotion is good for a master of flies anyway, so pretty much can enter with anything.
At what level do you have 5 cross class ranks?

[lylsyly]

Scout immediately springs to mind - it gets both these skills as class skills, and benefits from high Dex.

+2

8 skill points and d8 hit dice, battle fortitude, uncanny dodge, +10 ft movement, a bonus feat from a list that includes improved initiative, evasion. Plus the other goodies.

[liquidformat]

I was initially going to suggest swashbuckler/rogue daring outlaw and knowledge devotion but you can't actually sneak attack in swarm form. I think you are still ok with full scout as your base class as that damage is based on movement so I think it might still apply.

Over all I think Gruftzwerg's warlock idea is the coolest and probably the way to go.

[Gruftzwerg]

On second thought, monk's unarmed strike ability should also work and would be funny too.

How about a grapple build since MoF can shape up to huge size (+8 grapple)? (edit: not possible, see my next post)

Or unarmed swordsage variant?

[bean illus]

On second thought, monk's unarmed strike ability should also work and would be funny too.

How about a grapple build since MoF can shape up to huge size (+8 grapple)?

Or unarmed swordsage variant?

I was wondering if a swarm could grapple or trip. Are we back to knowledge devotion factotum?

[Thurbane]

At the moment I'm leaning towards Scout 5/MoF 10/Cancer Mage 5 (for reasons) :smalltongue:

[liquidformat]

At the moment I'm leaning towards Scout 5/MoF 10/Cancer Mage 5 (for reasons) :smalltongue:

So if you are planning to go Cancer Mage anyways Bear Barbarian 1/ranger 2 or ranger 2/Undying Way Monk 1 are decent entry points and Cancer mage does have Knowledge (Nature) and Escape artist as class skills so you could have something like ranger 2/Undying Way Monk 1/Cancer Mage 7/MoF 10 by level 20

[Gruftzwerg]

I was wondering if a swarm could grapple or trip. Are we back to knowledge devotion factotum?

Sadly I missed a line in the swarm traits..


Also, they cannot be tripped, grappled, or bull rushed, and they cannot grapple an opponent.

But the other options should still work:
Eldritch Glaive
Unarmed Strike (and its improvements)
Eldritch Claws + Beast Strike (the former is from Dragon magazine)

[Saintheart]

Sadly I missed a line in the swarm traits..

That's such a buzz-kill.





I hate it when good ideas get swatted down.

[Gruftzwerg]

How about a stand still focused build with some tripping & sneak attack? Something like...

unarmed Swordsage 1/Crusader 1/Rogue 3 /MoF X / ???

Feats: (not ordered)
Weapon Finesse, Quick Change, Imp. Trip, Underfoot Combat , Confound the Big Folk, Stand Still, Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades, Combat Reflexes

Make enemies flat footed and open for sneak attacks.

Trip with Dex mod (note size penalty of the swarms..), there are 2 maneuvers and the feat (Confound the Big Folk) that can give this option.

Stop enemies from moving out & have fun xD

[Saintheart]

How about a stand still focused build with some tripping & sneak attack? Something like...

unarmed Swordsage 1/Crusader 1/Rogue 3 /MoF X / ???

Feats: (not ordered)
Weapon Finesse, Quick Change, Imp. Trip, Underfoot Combat , Confound the Big Folk, Stand Still, Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades, Combat Reflexes

Make enemies flat footed and open for sneak attacks.

Trip with Dex mod (note size penalty of the swarms..), there are 2 maneuvers and the feat (Confound the Big Folk) that can give this option.

Stop enemies from moving out & have fun xD



You could be a total pest if you wanted!

[bean illus]

How about a stand still focused build with some tripping & sneak attack? Something like...

unarmed Swordsage 1/Crusader 1/Rogue 3 /MoF X / ???

Feats: (not ordered)
Weapon Finesse, Quick Change, Imp. Trip, Underfoot Combat , Confound the Big Folk, Stand Still, Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades, Combat Reflexes

Make enemies flat footed and open for sneak attacks.

Trip with Dex mod (note size penalty of the swarms..), there are 2 maneuvers and the feat (Confound the Big Folk) that can give this option.

Stop enemies from moving out & have fun xD

I'm fascinated by this idea. I'm trying to understand it completely.

How does size work here?

Summon Swarm (Sp): This effect is similar to that of a summon swarm spell, except that the swarm is of the same size category as the caster (and it has the same face statistic as the caster).
Does MoF trip as Diminutive, or Tiny? Or as the size the MoF was when they performed the summons? If enlarged or polymorphed, does that become the swarms size?

Or, ... MoF is tiny in each square, but occupies several squares? How do iterative attacks work? MoF attacks/trips in any square it occupies for a full round? Swarms get a 5' step?

What's the "face statistic"? Casting stat? Combat facing?

... can a swarm be flanked (no?)? Can a swarm flank (yes?)?

I'm rereading all the feats and class features. I wonder about ways to work with the size penalties. Maybe buff the trip in other ways. Factotum is a simple +4-6ish trip, attack, damage, initiative, and hide/move, but cost 3 levels.

Wasn't there a trick to throw improved unarmed strike with Master Thrower? A ranged trip shot on Dex.

I feel like i want to explore this, and flesh it out. I wonder if i should start another thread, or if Thurbane would enjoy this exploration here on this thread.

[Gruftzwerg]

I'm fascinated by this idea. I'm trying to understand it completely.

How does size work here?

....

I feel like i want to explore this, and flesh it out. I wonder if i should start another thread, or if Thurbane would enjoy this exploration here on this thread.

Let's assume thurbane is fine with this unless he says something^^

First there is the relevant "Size:" for combat modifiers, which is tiny/diminutive (-8/-12) ( for most swarms).

Then there is the space the swarm covers, which the ability text (of MoF) refers to as "the swarm is of the same size category as the caster ".

"Normal" attacks and iterative attacks can be done into any square the swarm covers (since it has a reach of 0!).

You designate a target for each attack action you take like you normally do: e.g. "I want to trip that goblin in that square"

The face statistics don't (!) change by the Swarm Chape ability:

it has the same face statistic as the caster
as such, I assume that you still can be flanked/backstabbed. It should be able to flank, since no restrictions are made in that regards by the swarm type traits.

As said the tripping size modifier would be -8/-12 depending on the swarm type. The build I presented can compensate the penalties to some degree:
+4 Imp Trip
+4 from trip maneuvers
..could be further boosted by gear. And since Confound the Big Folk denies the enemy his size bonus, it ain't that bad.

Another size problem is the monk's unarmed strike.. which is the reason to add some sneak attack damage to the build.

if you want to to go for a Master Thrower build, a single lvl dip into Brawler (proficiency but normal damage) or Drunken Master (no proficiency -4 to hit, but extra unarmed strike) for Improvised Weapons can be nice. Brawler is more recommend since the extra unarmed strike damage DM offers becomes irrelevant due to the tiny/diminutive size..
edit: forgot to mention Bloodstorm Blade which is another option for ranged tripping. Up to you if you wanna go BSB or Master Thrower.

edit2: alternatively a deeper warlock build (13 lvls of invocation progress) could also work with a similar strategy:
Nightmares Made Real (NMR) - (Will Save) root em in place (entangled)
Noxious Blast - (Fortitude Save) nauseated for 1 round
With these two abilities, you should be able to lock most enemies in place. NMR also gives you basically Hide In Plain Sight which is a great bonus for this build.
Dunno, maybe you can fit Arcane Trickster into it too for some extra sneak attack damage on top.