Trying to make a support rogue/barbarian

[poopyloop]

Hello guys, my group is about to start the candle keep adventure, and for my character I've got a few ideas but wanted to see what kinds of ideas and tips you might have. The jist of the character so far:
Definitely want to be a halfling but could possibly be flexible on this. The main idea I had for him was combining rogue and barbarian for expertise in grapple checks (and I thought a halfling grappling and shoving people would be funny) as well as the offensive and defensive synergy between the classes. However I am undecided about sub classes for him. Totem wolf sounds good since anyone I gave grappled would have advantage attacks coming at them from my allies, but I know there are some other great options out there like zealot and ancestral guardian. For rogue I had absolutely no particular plan. For outside of those classes, I also had considered rune knight, as they can use the fire shackles as a sort of pseudo grapple and he could grow and start wrestling dragons and the like. For the flavor/background, I was thinking something along the lines of a Mafia boss, or possibly the next in line to the family (since we're starting at lv 1) and act as a sort of thug, despite his small stature.
So any combinations or build ideas you guys have for this character would be pretty sick. It will be out DMs first time, so I don't want to go too crazy and wild with anything to the point where he doesn't know what's going on or how to handle my character, but I don't really foresee that being an issue. Thanks for taking the time

[KOLE]

What split of classes were you planning? I’ve played a Barbarogue before and they’re absolutely fantastic. If you’re looking for support, wolf and totem and/or ancestral barb are pretty awesome at their job, most other subclasses don’t give you much. If you go for strength as your primary attribute, with 14 dex for the multiclass/ac, you can swing finesse weapons with strength and still get sneak attack. That also stacks with using reckless attack for at will sneak attack and your rage damage bonus when you have it!

With your strength, also throw expertise: athletics on to be a MASTER of grappling. Very few enemies will be able to match your modifier. I also strongly recomend picking up the Shieldmaster feat. Bonus action shove with expertise athletics is bonkers. You can push enemies away from your allies or just knock them prone, which gives allies advantage and is some excellent control for the pace of the battlefield as they’ll start their turn at half speed when they stand up.

You’re on a great track here. If you want to emphasis support, I personally would build this as a 5 wolf totem strength emphasized halfling and then start picking up rogue levels (or delay extra attack by one for the expertise in athletics early), the start picking up Mastermind rogue levels. Mastermind is awesome at support with bonus action Help, which gives yours buddies advantage! You can season on shield master to taste if it tickles your fancy, but even without too many fancy tactics, just being a brick standing there with rapier and shield soaking up hits and dishing it out with at will sneak attack will go a long way to supporting the party by drawing attention. Have fun!

[poopyloop]

Haven't fully committed to a split, really open to anything at this point. Shield master is an interesting thought, let's me have pseudo evasion without investing in rogue, and the bonus action shove is nice. I think if I were to do this I would stick with ancestral guardian barb, as wolf totem advantage, BA shove prone advantage, and battle master advantage seems like overkill/redundant when I could do something else to help out the party too. I was thinking of going with dual wielding short swords for the occasion where I need to land sneak attack or a grapple and have yet to use my BA, and for the chance to get in more rage damage, but shield master does sound fun.

One thing I was not planning on was mastermind rogue. I've been playing a mastermind/battle master in a different game and have found the bonus action help to be very underwhelming. Not sure if I'm just getting unlucky, if my fellow players aren't thinking of how to use it strategically, or if it really is just not that impressive. Either way, I'm not against it if that really is the best way to go for my build but it wasn't something I was planning on.
However I was planning on starting rogue for lv 1, then probably going barb to 5 for extra attack, then rogue from there as needed. I enjoy having fancy tactics and options in battle (and also outside of battle) so any of that would be great honestly, but simply being a tank is cool too

[sophontteks]

I'd pick a medium race if you want to grapple. Halflings can't grapple large opponents.

The optimal subclass is totem barbarian taking elf first. With the rogue multiclass you can move 110 feet per round with bonus action dash, or 55 feet per round grappling. This is a lot of battlefield control.

Wolf is a bit redundant given that grapplers already give advantage by knocking opponents prone.

For a feat I'd look at athlete for the improved jump, better standing, an climb speed. You can jump or climb and fall to knock opponents prone using movement.

With such a high movement jump spell or boots of striding can be really good.

[Keravath]

Some comments -

1) For the small race feel without actually being small you could go with dwarf. Mountain dwarves have +2 str and +2 con which is a great fit for a barbarian/rogue. You can start with 17 in each using point buy and bump to 18 in each with your first ASI. They also have some useful bonus proficiencies you might be able to swap if using Tasha's rules.

2) I would consider leveling barbarian first. Con save is probably more useful in the long run than dex. You also have more starting hit points. You do lose one skill though. If you want the expertise in athletics for grappling then you can pick it up by taking a level of rogue at level 2. Rogue evasion and shield master feat (if you take it) will also tend to help mitigate damage related to dex saves.

3) Scout rogue might be worth considering if you want to be an outdoorsy type. You get two extra skills with expertise and some useful other abilities.

[poopyloop]

I'd pick a medium race if you want to grapple. Halflings can't grapple large opponents.

The optimal subclass is totem barbarian taking elf first. With the rogue multiclass you can move 110 feet per round with bonus action dash, or 55 feet per round grappling. This is a lot of battlefield control.

Wolf is a bit redundant given that grapplers already give advantage by knocking opponents prone.

For a feat I'd look at athlete for the improved jump, better standing, an climb speed. You can jump or climb and fall to knock opponents prone using movement.

With such a high movement jump spell or boots of striding can be really good.

I know halfling isn't optimal, but I think that's the way I'd have the most fun playing this character. I've never played a grappler before and forgot that they would also be fantastic at shoving and knocking prone, so yeah now I realize that wolf probably isn't the way to go (especially since we play with flanking rules, I should be able to position myself pretty easily) That said, not huge into bear totem personally as it is probably the subclass I see talked about most often and seems a bit too hyped up, I kind of see it as "not having a subclass" unless you actually take some non physical damage, but I'm not sure how much that will come up in this campaign. Same with the athlete feat, I assume we'll be inside most of the campaign (candle keep) but I don't know much about it so maybe athlete will be helpful, but I'll have at least some time to figure that out before a feat comes up, thanks for the suggestion


Some comments -

1) For the small race feel without actually being small you could go with dwarf. Mountain dwarves have +2 str and +2 con which is a great fit for a barbarian/rogue. You can start with 17 in each using point buy and bump to 18 in each with your first ASI. They also have some useful bonus proficiencies you might be able to swap if using Tasha's rules.

2) I would consider leveling barbarian first. Con save is probably more useful in the long run than dex. You also have more starting hit points. You do lose one skill though. If you want the expertise in athletics for grappling then you can pick it up by taking a level of rogue at level 2. Rogue evasion and shield master feat (if you take it) will also tend to help mitigate damage related to dex saves.

3) Scout rogue might be worth considering if you want to be an outdoorsy type. You get two extra skills with expertise and some useful other abilities.

Dwarf does seem interesting, but I do really want to play halfling with this character. I might ask the DM if I can at least grapple large creatures just for this character as it's kind of the schtick. I did roll for stats, 18, 17, 13, 12, 9, 9. Pretty lucky with a few of them. I was planning rogue for dex saves and the extra skills, do you think con saves are really that common? In my experience Dex seems to come up more, but I don't have records of them just based on memory. The starting class isn't that important to me so whatever one would be most helpful early on is what I was planning.
As far as rogue subclasses that stick out to me, psychic and phantom both seem good for the extra skill check bonuses (psychic seems a bit better as it has multiple uses to add to things I'm already good at, but the potential diversity of phantom seems worthwhile at least). Scout does also seem cool, free expertise in 2 extra skills could be very strong if they come up, and the reaction movement could be useful in certain situations. They are definitely my top picks
As for Barb I'm definitely leaning ancestral guardian but still open to suggestions

[sophontteks]

Just like the wolf, the disadvantage from ancestrial guardian's ability is a little redundant for a grappler. If you are grappling a prone opponent, they can't get back up. Prone will give them disadvantage on attacks.

I suggest the elk totem because it lets you get to the priority target right away. You could even scale a wall or jump over opponents to get to them, and drag them to a cliff or a hazard, or even straight drag them away.

But another great option is the beast babarian. The unarmed attacks are all great for grappling.

[poopyloop]

Just like the wolf, the disadvantage from ancestrial guardian's ability is a little redundant for a grappler. If you are grappling a prone opponent, they can't get back up. Prone will give them disadvantage on attacks.

I suggest the elk totem because it lets you get to the priority target right away. You could even scale a wall or jump over opponents to get to them, and drag them to a cliff or a hazard, or even straight drag them away.

But another great option is the beast babarian. The unarmed attacks are all great for grappling.

Oh man I'm really not in the grapple head space. Forgot shoving probe causes disadvantage. I suppose there is always the case of multiple enemies, but wolf totem would probably be better than ancestral guardian if I'm worried about that. Elk does seem cool, I hadn't ever really taken it into consideration but the extra movement on top of a BA dash makes me incredibly mobile. The beast is an interesting choice, I had thought about it but wasn't considering it over ancestral guardian until reading your post. Could be really diverse based on the situation I'm in. Unfortunately they can't be used for sneak attack so I'll have to play around that

[sophontteks]

Ah, that's true isn't it. The elk build is one I'd do but right now the herengon beast barbarian is just too cool to pass up.

Don't forget, If you can deal fall damage, they drop prone too. Might be an argument for thief subclass (climb speed). But man I wish they did a bette job with that ability. Jumping extra feet equal to your dex mod is a bit of a joke.

[Talionis]

Rogue 1/ Barbarian 5/ Rogue 4. It gets some sneak attack and expertise right away, but then move into Barbarian to get extra attack and enough rages. Then go back to Rogue for uncanny dodge. After that it’s up to you if you want more Rogue or move into Rune Knight.

As for subclasses.

I really like thief for grappling because you can use your bonus action to attach shackles, which is more of the support you are trying to do. I think I’d lean towards Ancestors for Barbarian the taunt ability with your Rogue dash and uncanny dodge allow for battlefield control. Don’t forget you’ll need a ranged attack, but with thrown weapons they can be strength based, but this can be very useful.

Good luck.

[Skrum]

Wow, I just made a character along this theme. Funny coincidence.

I'm going fairy barbarian 1 rune knight 5. Using point buy I started with 17 14 16 8 10 8. Took skill mastery (probably not the right name) to boost str to 18 and get expertise on athletics.

Three ways to get adv. on athletics: rage, giants might, and enlarge/reduce. This on top of a +10 modifier. There's also the frost rune which can give another +2. The damage isn't great, but I took thrown weapon mastery so I can at least chuck some axes if the situation calls for it. Enlarge/reduce and giant's might also give the very hugely needed size boost so more things can be grappled.

AC is 17 with no armor and a shield.

Tavern brawler next level will help a lot. And if you really need/want to screw someone up and have a few rounds to spare... Fairies can fly, even when they're large.

Best part though, you get to play an angry fairy that talks a huge amount of crap then becomes 10' tall when someone decides they have a problem.

[Hairfish]

I like going barb first in barb/rogue grapplers. Str saves let you resist a lot of effects which would knock you away from your target and barb gets pseudo-dex saves against anything they can see coming. Then you just need to pick resilient-wis to have some coverage on the big three.

[Khrysaes]

As an alternative to Barbarian you can choose Rune Knight Fighter. The Giant Form takes you from small to large which removes the restriction of small size from a halfling.

[Khrysaes]

Wow, I just made a character along this theme. Funny coincidence.

I'm going fairy barbarian 1 rune knight 5. Using point buy I started with 17 14 16 8 10 8. Took skill mastery (probably not the right name) to boost str to 18 and get expertise on athletics.

Three ways to get adv. on athletics: rage, giants might, and enlarge/reduce. This on top of a +10 modifier. There's also the frost rune which can give another +2. The damage isn't great, but I took thrown weapon mastery so I can at least chuck some axes if the situation calls for it. Enlarge/reduce and giant's might also give the very hugely needed size boost so more things can be grappled.

AC is 17 with no armor and a shield.

Tavern brawler next level will help a lot. And if you really need/want to screw someone up and have a few rounds to spare... Fairies can fly, even when they're large.

Best part though, you get to play an angry fairy that talks a huge amount of crap then becomes 10' tall when someone decides they have a problem.

I literally just made this character....

[sophontteks]

Unfortunately faeries can't rage while concentrating on enlarge/reduce. But this would make for a great rune knight grappler. The fly speed is very strong.

[stoutstien]

Could ask if you can use the climb on larger creature rules in the DMG as a Halfling. Not quite as powerful of a lockdown but you will be a literal thorn in their side of they don't take care of you first.

[Skrum]

Unfortunately faeries can't rage while concentrating on enlarge/reduce. But this would make for a great rune knight grappler. The fly speed is very strong.

That is true, but because of action economy I don't think it'll often come up. Raging OR giant's might OR enlarge. Not a ton of need to overlap these abilities. Enlarge is the worst option of the bunch too, fwiw.

[poopyloop]

Rogue 1/ Barbarian 5/ Rogue 4....

As for subclasses.
...thief for grappling because you can use your bonus action to attach shackles... I think I’d lean towards Ancestors for Barbarian the taunt ability with your Rogue dash and uncanny dodge allow for battlefield control....

This was the level progression I had planned on. I hadn't really considered thief, but if I get my hands on some shackles or something that does sound like a good option. I also had the thought of disengaging after hitting someone with the ancestral guardian but someone earlier in the thread mentioned that if I'll be grappling and knocking prone enemies, then the guardian ability is a little redundant, unless of course there are multiple enemies but wolf totem seems to be a better option against multiple targets to me. Definitely going to pick up some throwing axes as my main ranged attack.



....fairy barbarian 1 rune knight 5....

Best part though, you get to play an angry fairy that talks a huge amount of crap then becomes 10' tall when someone decides they have a problem.

That does sound like an entertaining character. I definitely want to go with halfling for my guy tho, as good as fairies seem to be. Rune knight is a very good looking option too. My original concept was more of just a brute or thug type and not so much a trained fighter with access to magic. As much as I'd love to get big it just doesn't quite fit the character for me outside of that ability, which is unfortunate, as I do really want to try out a rune knight at some point, not sure if I want to with this character or not tho.... Still worth considering I suppose


I like going barb first in barb/rogue grapplers.....
This is an interesting point, hadn't thought of that. I was more concerned with the skills and the double whammy on DEX saves I would eventually get, but maybe starting Barb isn't so bad


As an alternative to Barbarian you can choose Rune Knight Fighter. The Giant Form takes you from small to large which removes the restriction of small size from a halfling.
Yep definitely had this in mind, not taking it off the table, I just prefer Barb/rogue together for this character is all really.


Could ask if you can use the climb on larger creature rules in the DMG as a Halfling. Not quite as powerful of a lockdown but you will be a literal thorn in their side of they don't take care of you first.

Ah now this is something I hadn't considered. I'm pretty confident my DM would allow this so I will ask about it, definitely better than nothing

[Quietus]

I would definitely be using Ancestral Guardian subclass on the Barb side for this. The disadvantage-granting aspect isn't quite as helpful, though you could hurl a throwing weapon at someone while you're grappling (would want Crossbow Expert to remove the disadvantage when doing so), apply disadvantage on their attacks, then turn back and attack the person you've locked down with grapple/shove. The big thing I'd be looking at is the 6th level ability to prevent damage via a reaction. 2d6 doesn't seem like much, but it will get applied basically every turn while you're raging, and is very much like having your own built in Reaction-based healing word.

On the Rogue side, I think the Scout suggestion is a good one. Extra proficiencies/expertise is great, but it also gives you the ability to move when an enemy ends their turn within 5 feet of you. You know who is going to be doing that regularly? The person you have grappled. Great to have the option to either Ancestral Guardian protect, or hustle them around. And if you aren't raging, it still gives you a good Reaction ability. This setup, I'd probably be going 1 Barb->1 Rogue->+5 Barb -> +2 Rogue, and to taste from there.

[Rukelnikov]

Beast has a couple goodies for a grappler. The extra attack from the claws can be turned into an extra grapple attempt, if you go with both hands unarmed you can grapple 2 creatures at once, and still be "armed", or go for the tail/bite natural weapon, so you can grapple 2 enemies and still be able to attack freely.

Also, lvl 6 gives climbing speed and really high jumps (though this is obviously worse than just flying)