What breaks if familiars can attack?

[Greywander]

They have pretty piddly attacks, it sounds like a good way to get them killed. Seems like you'd be much better off having them take the help action to assist another PC with their attack, instead of having the familiar make its own attack.

[Gtdead]

Chain locks already have attacking familiars. If no one managed to break them till now, I don't think an attacking owl can make any difference. The most they could do would be to attack with contact poisons and if we stretch the concept, then perhaps a shadowblade from a ring of spell storing? Sounds wonky and silly. Also dangerous...

[JackPhoenix]

Shove is an attack, but with the size and Str score of most familiars, it's not gonna do much. Maybe throwing alchemical weapons, but most non-warlock familiars don't have appropriate limbs either.

[Segev]

It is mainly future-proofing that may not have been necessary, with an eye towards limiting action economy explosion.

[diplomancer]

Magic stone.

Investment of the Chain Master is one of the best invocations for Pact of the Chain; and it still requires the use of the Warlock's bonus action. Just letting them attack for free might not "break" anything, but it's decidedly powerful.

[Eldariel]

Magic stone.

Even there, we already have Animate Dead, Tiny Servant, etc. that are generally superior platforms for firing Magic Stones, so I don't expect that the impact would be that big, at least past 1-4 (even if we allowed the creatures to throw, even though non-Chainlock familiars don't seem like they'd really have the physiology to that end).

[sithlordnergal]

Hmmm, it really depends on the familiar in question and what spells you have access to. If you're just a regular old caster with a regular old Owl familiar, you'll be fine. However, lets say you take Find Familiar and Magic Stone on a Pact of the Tome Warlock. First, Magic Stone is a Touch Spell, meaning you can cast it through a Familiar. This will give your Familiar three 60ft ranged attacks it can use, attacks that use your spellcasting bonus for the attack roll and deals 1d6+Casting Mod damage. And since controlling your familiar doesn't take any sort of action, you can tell it to throw a pebble whenever you want on your turn.

Really that's probably the biggest and more obvious use for it though

[diplomancer]

Even there, we already have Animate Dead, Tiny Servant, etc. that are generally superior platforms for firing Magic Stones, so I don't expect that the impact would be that big, at least past 1-4 (even if we allowed the creatures to throw, even though non-Chainlock familiars don't seem like they'd really have the physiology to that end).

You're comparing non-ritual 3rd level spells with a 1st level ritual spell. They *should* be superior. And isn't there a flying monkey familiar in Tomb of Annihilation?


Hmmm, it really depends on the familiar in question and what spells you have access to. If you're just a regular old caster with a regular old Owl familiar, you'll be fine. However, lets say you take Find Familiar and Magic Stone on a Pact of the Tome Warlock. First, Magic Stone is a Touch Spell, meaning you can cast it through a Familiar. This will give your Familiar three 60ft ranged attacks it can use, attacks that use your spellcasting bonus for the attack roll and deals 1d6+Casting Mod damage. And since controlling your familiar doesn't take any sort of action, you can tell it to throw a pebble whenever you want on your turn.

Really that's probably the biggest and more obvious use for it though

Hey, thanks! I've been juggling object interactions between my Warlock and his familiar to use Magic Stone, and you've made me realize I can just have the familiar carry the stones and I cast it through them (though arguably a Sprite would lose invisibility by doing so... hmm).

[False God]

I think it's more of an Action Economy issue than anything else. Restricting familiars from attacking keeps turn bloat down. I doubt it would make much bother to a DM who can handle it and players who can take their turns quickly.

[Skrum]

It breaks Chainlocks, as in makes them entirely pointless. I don't love giving everyone something that a class specializes in.

[Mjolnirbear]

It breaks Chainlocks, as in makes them entirely pointless. I don't love giving everyone something that a class specializes in.

... *entirely*??

Naw man. Owls can't turn invisible. Bat's don't have Heart Sight. Rats don't have poison stings or arrows. Toads don't have Shape change. Ravens can't see in magical darkness. None of the standard familiars have the stats or HP of the Chainlock familiars.

Chainlock familiars are far, far more than that single attack. Heck, the only time I've ever used its attack is in Baldur's Gate 3.

Giving class features out willy-nilly, I can agree might be an issue. You're not wrong there. Where you're wrong is that all Chainlock familiars offer is that attack.

[Skrum]

... *entirely*??

Naw man. Owls can't turn invisible. Bat's don't have Heart Sight. Rats don't have poison stings or arrows. Toads don't have Shape change. Ravens can't see in magical darkness. None of the standard familiars have the stats or HP of the Chainlock familiars.

Chainlock familiars are far, far more than that single attack. Heck, the only time I've ever used its attack is in Baldur's Gate 3.

Giving class features out willy-nilly, I can agree might be an issue. You're not wrong there. Where you're wrong is that all Chainlock familiars offer is that attack.

Ok that's true. I forgot regular familiars aren't imps or quasits.

Yeah this doesn't break anything. Basic familiars are really weak.

[Eldariel]

Ok that's true. I forgot regular familiars aren't imps or quasits.

Yeah this doesn't break anything. Basic familiars are really weak [in combat].

Added an important disclaimer. Familiars are anything but weak, but they are not damage dealers. Having 120' darkvision and 18 passive perception or blindsight or some such is really sweet though and something PCs can't easily access otherwise, as is having a second set of skills, a second set of eyes with telepathy that can fit through small openings and be relatively inconspicuous plus only cost 10gp and 1 hour 10 minutes to restore if it dies, and a help action on command for most things. Familiars do a lot of sweet things but damage isn't one of them whether or not they can attack (indeed, even if they could, there would very, very, very, very rarely be situations where they should).

[kingcheesepants]

The thing that breaks if familiars can attack is the familiars themselves who go from being nuisances to threats and thus get attacked by the enemy and immediately die.

[dafrca]

The thing that breaks if familiars can attack is the familiars themselves who go from being nuisances to threats and thus get attacked by the enemy and immediately die.

This. Normal familiars are fragile. Best to keep them out of direct combat if you can in my opinion. :smallsmile:

[Greywander]

Context: I was writing a custom familiar feature for the witch class I'm working on. It's separate from Find Familiar, and while it's a buff, it's mostly not a combat buff (biggest thing is HP equal to twice your level, which is still pretty fragile, and proficiency in all saves, using your prof. bonus; later they get stuff like Evasion and Magic Resistance, i.e. mostly defensive, nothing offensive). I was just wondering if there was any point in carrying over the "can't attack" part from Find Familiar. You probably shouldn't be attacking with the familiar, but I wasn't sure if there was really a reason to expressly forbid it. Again, a Help action to give advantage to the barbarian or paladin or rogue would probably be more effective.

inb4 someone takes a baboon/monkey as their familiar and gives it a crossbow. (Because I did exactly that quite some time ago in a Pathfinder game; never got to use it, though, as the campaign fell apart before we saw combat.)

[SharkForce]

I wouldn't give it to all familiars, but if you're giving it to a class where you intend for the familiar to be a significant part of the class concept and a familiar that can attack helps achieve that concept, I think you're overall fine to do it. if the familiar is just the standard list of animals from the find familiar spell, none of which particularly have hands or would otherwise be likely to attack with tools, I think you could even treat it as a ribbon.

[gorfnab]

The Dragon's Breath spell is a fun way to give a familiar an "attack".

[king_steve]

I think it makes sense to look at other feature that are similar to familiars, namely the Artificers homunculus and steel defender. Additionally the Tasha’s beast master animals and the new drakewarden drake companion.

Those all can attack and generally have some sort of stat scaling based off the PC.

Additionally there are some features that are kind of skinned like familiars, like the Swarmkeepers gathered swarm and other subclass abilities that have a feeling kinda like a familiar without having an extra body on the field.

[Witty Username]

Quoth the beastmaster ranger, "how you doing? I'm doing just fine, I lied, I'm dying inside."

[Rukelnikov]

Quoth the beastmaster ranger, "how you doing? I'm doing just fine, I lied, I'm dying inside."

ahahhaa awesome

OT: Probably nothing, I played a SorChainlock, got my familiar by lvl 4 or 5, and played all the way to 17th level.l and that was Pre Invocation of the Chainmaster, and I never used my action to attack thru my familiar.

Does this means "omg free dpr"? A bit, but mostly Nah. At level 3 Imp is legit a combatant. Low armor and HP but with resistance to most physical attacks and Invis at wil, it should survive a couple rounds, and if it dies, its only a short rest away. It gets the feel of summoner a now, which is kinda cool tbh. It'll likely get the drop on the enemies, +5 to att (at least first round with advantage) for about 10 damage with no action cost is pretty good at this level, that's more than the average Eldritch Blast 10+Cha, Cha needs to be 20 for EB to be better damage at this level.

However, by level 5 it has very few HP, even with resistances. Their +5 10 damage attack cant keep up with extra attack . I think its a ctually good design, the feature that is very good at level 3, is still useful but not as good by level 5.