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View Full Version : Roleplaying I got most of the party killed and feel bad



EmeraldBoa
2021-11-20, 06:48 PM
So... I'm a new player, been playing over voice chat for a year. It's a great group - we have a nice mix of RP and combat, the GM plays fair and tries to only mostly kill us, and everybody gets along. They've been very welcoming, and though I'm still not hugely confident I always look forward to our sessions.

We're currently level 11. Last game we found out that my character's parents have been taken away by the guards and her grandfather was murdered. This was a nice bit of drama and not entirely unexpected. After a bit of investigating, we turned around and saw a dragon flap down onto the roof of their house and start burning it down, along with much of the neighbourhood. At this point, I couldn't think of any reason my character would have not to go into this.
a) her grandfather's corpse was inside and she'd been hoping to resurrect him
b) her home, her parents' livelihood and neighbourhood is being destroyed
c) people are dying right now, people she grew up with

Two players/PCs were against. One PCs backed me, in character, and started running for the dragon. Long story short, we ended up fighting, and the three who got close (the fourth started a bucket chain, the fifth missed the session so the DM played safe so as not to kill her) were killed.

I can't argue ignorance: the other players talked a bit about what a bad idea it was to engage a dragon in the open air, and I knew everyone was a bit low on abilities (and also on much lower health than I thought). I was also counting on an ability and failed to realise that it couldn't possibly have worked against the dragon.

The fight wasn't my decision alone... but at the same time, D&D is a group game, so if one person rushes in to die a pointless death then everybody else will do the same, out of solidarity. I feel like I should have been able to think of an in-character reason not to rush in, or at least swallow my pride and back out of a very bad situation, even if it would have made things a bit complicated RP-wise. "It's what my character would do" is usually quoted as something That Guy says, and I don't want to be That Guy.

I don't think anybody's (very) bitter, and we talked a bit after the game, but still - :smallfrown: I'm not happy with myself.

tl;dr my character's decisions got three PCs killed, one of them my own, and I feel a bit ****. How can I do better?

(and if you're reading this, guys... oops, I suppose)

Edited reply because life got in the way and I don't want to necro:
Thanks for all the comments, lot of food for thought in there, especially for a new player like myself. As for my DM - yes, I trust him and don't blame him (maybe a bit for the dead grandad). A lot of dominoes came together and fell on us, essentially: months ago (one week IG) we'd unknowingly stolen a very valuable magic item which belonged to the dragon, the BBEG's lieutenant who controls the dragon now has a personal grudge against us and recently learned where my character lived, and someone had been sent to watch her house (alerting the sub-BBEG, who alerted the dragon). Dead grandad was, I think, a spur-of-the-moment decision which made for good roleplay but came back to bite everyone in the bum; I think the DM expected us to flee and challenge the dragon when we were in a better position to do so, but grandad's resurrectable cadaver gave me Stakes.
Anyway, tl;dr DM is friend-shaped, the dragon is dead now and my new temporary PC is going to hang the head above her shop door. .

mucat
2021-11-20, 07:36 PM
You were not at all "That Guy" here. You can't even see That Guy's house from where you're standing. (And not only because the whole neighborhood is ashes.)

It's one thing to behave like a complete jackass, in-world and out, and try to justify it as "what my character would do." It's another thing to rush in and try to rescue friends and loved ones. In this case, it really *is* what a decent and realistic character would do.

D&D (at least as most of us play it) isn't only a tactical optimization exercise. It's a story of interesting people doing interesting things. Frankly, if a character in one of my groups didn't race to the rescue in a situation like you described -- not because they understandably lost their nerve in the face of a roaring dragon, but because their player didn't want to make a suboptimal move in a game -- then I would start to wonder, "Why do I care about this person's story again?"

It does sound like your GM might have unfairly sprung a Kobiyashi Maru scenario on you, but I can't really make that call without more context.

Pex
2021-11-20, 07:44 PM
1) This is why PCs are only child orphans of only child orphaned parents. They don't want DMs to kill off family to create drama.

2) Sometimes a DM will have a monster appear the party is not meant to fight. It's way above their league in power. It's obvious way above their league in power. Usually such a monster wants to talk to the party, but once in a while it's meant as a cinematic cut scene that doesn't and isn't supposed to directly interact with the party. If this is what the DM meant he did it poorly because given the set up there was no way for the players to pick up on this. It obviously wasn't going to talk, and it immediate started destroying something of value to a PC.

3) If not 2, the DM, given what you say, should have known there was to be a fight. It's then a question of was it 1) bad luck dice rolling, shucks darn 2) poor player tactics of a suboptimal battle area the party could not recover from or 3) the DM on purpose or accident set up a fight the party could not win.

Imbalance
2021-11-20, 07:56 PM
Do you trust your DM?

False God
2021-11-20, 08:50 PM
As they say, it takes two to tangle.

I've played games where my character (or another) did not support the party's course of action, so they held back and didn't help. It certainly didn't gain them any love, but they lived. D&D may be a group game, but there've been times where one fool would rush in and the party absolutely would not back them, and so that person died.

Your party, against their perhaps better judgement, decided to aid you in this fight. You certainly don't appear to have forced them or otherwise coerced them into this action, so all in all I'd say, thems the breaks.

dafrca
2021-11-21, 01:43 AM
In my opinion, each player makes the final call for their character. You didn't force them into their actions. So while they might have grounds to say to you "told you so" I would not expect them to hold you fully responsible as they did elect to join you in the attempt.

I say feel a little sad it happened but do not try and take the whole thing onto your shoulders.

Just my point of view. :smallsmile:

icefractal
2021-11-21, 05:21 AM
NTA - this wasn't a random bad idea you latched onto, it was a situation which practically compelled your character into action. I probably would have done the same thing, for many characters I've played.

And for that matter, while usually it's IC to make staying alive a high priority, it's not the only priority, and OOC you don't only live once, so you might as well go out on your own terms rather than lose the character's spirit.

It sounds like a mistake was made on the GM's part though, although I can't say for sure. Maybe the rolls just blindsided everyone, or there were reasons why this dragon was essential to include, but it's not like the story was lacking conflict/pathos with the character's parents arrested and grandfather dead!

Rynjin
2021-11-21, 05:27 AM
Honestly I'd say the PC who decided not to aid in the fight is more at fault than you. Having the party go into a difficult fight at 60% power instead of 80% was their choice alone, and that extra 20% could have made a big difference.

There's an old team building concept that probably has some specific adage I can't recall, but the basic concept is that no matter the idea, even if it sounds stupid, the whole team should work together to achieve the goal that's set.

It's an important concept to learn in team sports and video games and whatnot. If 60% of your team is heading off to complete the objective in a specific way, even a bad way, it's almost ALWAYS better to go with them and try to help make it work.

Because lone wolfing it is never going to have a better outcome anyway.

Seriously, what did they expect to accomplish with a bucket brigade? While the dragon is STILL ACTIVELY BURNING THE TOWN?

Was it worth letting their friends get killed without them when they could have possibly prevented it?

Berenger
2021-11-21, 07:32 AM
Seriously, what did they expect to accomplish with a bucket brigade? While the dragon is STILL ACTIVELY BURNING THE TOWN?

Was it worth letting their friends get killed without them when they could have possibly prevented it?

Yeah, I have players in one of my regular groups that do random errant stuff like that all the time and it annoys me to no end. I mean, "carrying a random wounded NPC man-at-arms to the surgeons" surely is a noble thing to do. But if you are one of two battle-ready level 13+ wizards in our army and there is a horrible archdemon spawning on the battlefield that starts ripping off the heads of our army commanders, maybe order one of the 2,000 perfectly capable level 1 warriors to carry the injured soldier to safety and go help with the freaking boss fight yourself.

Aliess
2021-11-21, 10:53 AM
Sounds good to me.
Especially if the other players had the opportunity to grab hold of you, tell you you've got to go, there's nothing you can do here and drag you away from the dragon while you scream and rage in a suitably dramatic fashion.
If one character said "hell yeah! Let's fight!" one wandered off to do damage limitation and one tried to have a sensible conversation with you then it sounds like you got exactly the perfect outcome (assuming the DM intended for the dragon to stand and fight rather than getting out of town the second a bunch of high level characters turned up).

J-H
2021-11-21, 05:07 PM
You did nothing wrong and this will be a memorable battle two years from now.

Altheus
2021-11-22, 08:07 AM
Things happen, move on, next character please.

dafrca
2021-11-22, 12:36 PM
Things happen, move on, next character please.

I agree. With a single exception, this is how I have felt when any of my characters die. As a character I elected to do a very dangerous activity so I expect the risk. Heck the risk is part of the fun in my opinion. :smallsmile:

KorvinStarmast
2021-11-22, 02:00 PM
You did nothing wrong and this will be a memorable battle two years from now. And the tale may well grow in telling.
Things happen, move on, next character please. Yeah, grab them dice and roll up a new one. (Or whatever method you all use).

Duff
2021-11-22, 06:51 PM
I'm with everyone else - You did right (unless you've established your character is always coldly rational before - no self respecting Vulcan would rush in like that)
Maybe the GM misjudged your reaction - miner GM bad. You responded to an in character crisis in an entirely reasonably irrational way. Normal people do that all the time
Maybe the GM misjudged the character who didn't pitch in to the fight - miner bad for GM, that player or both
Maybe the dice didn't go your way enough to get through the fight - it happens and that's no-ones fault
Or maybe the GM thought this was a fight you could win. That's a slightly bigger GM bad.

Wintermoot
2021-11-22, 06:59 PM
1) This is why PCs are only child orphans of only child orphaned parents. They don't want DMs to kill off family to create drama.
.

DM: "Okay, as you guys are preparing to set off for the dungeon of Blex, PC receives an emergency message. The orphanage you grew up in was attacked and Mrs Gubersmith, the kindly old cook of the orphanage, and the only person who ever showed you any love when you were growing up has been kidnapped by evil wizards."

PC: "God dammit!"

Drogorn
2021-11-22, 08:00 PM
DM: "Okay, as you guys are preparing to set off for the dungeon of Blex, PC receives an emergency message. The orphanage you grew up in was attacked and Mrs Gubersmith, the kindly old cook of the orphanage, and the only person who ever showed you any love when you were growing up has been kidnapped by evil wizards."

PC: "God dammit!"

I've gone the other way and made my character's family powerful paladins in their own right, so "your family is in danger!" plots don't work on them. DM will at least have to get creative.

Telok
2021-11-23, 03:16 AM
DM: "Okay, as you guys are preparing to set off for the dungeon of Blex, PC receives an emergency message. The orphanage you grew up in was attacked and Mrs Gubersmith, the kindly old cook of the orphanage, and the only person who ever showed you any love when you were growing up has been kidnapped by evil wizards."

PC: "God dammit!"

Hey, I had one character whose entire family was backstory killed off by house cats during a bungled robbery and immedately became a tween arson-wizard adventurer because it was socially acceptable murderizing that paid well... I'm not allowed to do that any more for some reason...

gijoemike
2021-11-23, 11:40 AM
Yeah, I have players in one of my regular groups that do random errant stuff like that all the time and it annoys me to no end. I mean, "carrying a random wounded NPC man-at-arms to the surgeons" surely is a noble thing to do. But if you are one of two battle-ready level 13+ wizards in our army and there is a horrible archdemon spawning on the battlefield that starts ripping off the heads of our army commanders, maybe order one of the 2,000 perfectly capable level 1 warriors to carry the injured soldier to safety and go help with the freaking boss fight yourself.

And yet, the GM almost never has one of the 2k other npcs ever have common sense. They will almost never jump to render any sort of aid, setup a fire bucket chain, or carry wounded to the medic. PC's being the big action hero are the spark that sets the common rabble into action and 1/2 the time the common rabble will fail in this simple task leaving the hero to swoop in anyway and now save both of them.


I am slightly bitter as I have been hit with this by multiple GMs and printed scenarios before. It is a common trope in almost all table top games. Even in villain games. "Why am I surrounded by IMBICILES?!" "If you want something done right, do it yourself", and "Why must I do everything?"

RazorChain
2021-11-24, 08:39 AM
I've gone the other way and made my character's family powerful paladins in their own right, so "your family is in danger!" plots don't work on them. DM will at least have to get creative.

Now daddy wants you to join the Secret Order of your Paladin family. The Sacred order of Illumination was established to protect people from themselves.....if you don't...well Fnord! Now you know too much!


Mommy is not happy that you took Warlock/Sorcerer levels....this is not how you do things in this family.


Relations be it family or others can be used to make drama. Remember that book/comic/tvshow/movie about that orphan that knew nobody and just went about killing stuff? I don't.

Given that many GM's use it very badly to force a plot by killing or kidnapping. And even when Players show up with orphan PC then creative GM's just tell them their father is Darth Vader.....instant drama. How is the PC going to tackle that?

icefractal
2021-11-24, 02:43 PM
Given that many GM's use it very badly to force a plot by killing or kidnapping. And even when Players show up with orphan PC then creative GM's just tell them their father is Darth Vader.....instant drama. How is the PC going to tackle that?By being undead before the game starts and simply having outlived all their relatives, who all died peacefully of old age. :smalltongue:

Serious answer - by telling the GM OOC they don't want family drama, and leaving the game if the GM decides to insert some anyway. It's not a big ask, and if the GM's unwilling to give on that one point, that's a huge red flag of being a control freak. But conversely you do need to say it OOC, because a number of players would enjoy that kind of drama OOC even if their character would hate it IC.

King of Nowhere
2021-11-24, 02:44 PM
So... I'm a new player, been playing over voice chat for a year. It's a great group - we have a nice mix of RP and combat, the GM plays fair and tries to only mostly kill us, and everybody gets along. They've been very welcoming, and though I'm still not hugely confident I always look forward to our sessions.

We're currently level 11. Last game we found out that my character's parents have been taken away by the guards and her grandfather was murdered. This was a nice bit of drama and not entirely unexpected. After a bit of investigating, we turned around and saw a dragon flap down onto the roof of their house and start burning it down, along with much of the neighbourhood. At this point, I couldn't think of any reason my character would have not to go into this.
a) her grandfather's corpse was inside and she'd been hoping to resurrect him
b) her home, her parents' livelihood and neighbourhood is being destroyed
c) people are dying right now, people she grew up with

Two players/PCs were against. One PCs backed me, in character, and started running for the dragon. Long story short, we ended up fighting, and the three who got close (the fourth started a bucket chain, the fifth missed the session so the DM played safe so as not to kill her) were killed.

I can't argue ignorance: the other players talked a bit about what a bad idea it was to engage a dragon in the open air, and I knew everyone was a bit low on abilities (and also on much lower health than I thought). I was also counting on an ability and failed to realise that it couldn't possibly have worked against the dragon.

The fight wasn't my decision alone... but at the same time, D&D is a group game, so if one person rushes in to die a pointless death then everybody else will do the same, out of solidarity. I feel like I should have been able to think of an in-character reason not to rush in, or at least swallow my pride and back out of a very bad situation, even if it would have made things a bit complicated RP-wise. "It's what my character would do" is usually quoted as something That Guy says, and I don't want to be That Guy.

I don't think anybody's (very) bitter, and we talked a bit after the game, but still - :smallfrown: I'm not happy with myself.

tl;dr my character's decisions got three PCs killed, one of them my own, and I feel a bit ****. How can I do better?

(and if you're reading this, guys... oops, I suppose)

you were not wrong to engage there. any roleplayer would have done it. your dm may be in the wrong; threatening one's family as a plot hook is legitimate, but exterminating one's family while rubbing it in his face to set up a long term villain is dickish, adversarial, and, most important, counterproductive. if a player is considerate enough to form connections and become emotionally involved in the campaign world instead of being a murderhobo, you want to reward that and use it to tell a more rich story; you don't want to squander it all just to provide a thin-veiled excuse for the character to engage in more murderhoboing. else you'll be left wondering why all your players are murderhobos.
now, i don't know your exact table situation, and cannot judge if the dm did one on you; but from the setup, if someone is to blame, it's him. Also, the other players not cooperating.

that said, i wonder why you all died engaging the dragon. unless you were all killed in one round, you should have enough sense to leave when you realize the fight is going poorly. and at level 11, you should have a dimension door for it. so, you are not guilty of "trying to save your family", but you may be guilty of "being too stubborn to back down in front of certain doom".

And yet, the GM almost never has one of the 2k other npcs ever have common sense. They will almost never jump to render any sort of aid, setup a fire bucket chain, or carry wounded to the medic. PC's being the big action hero are the spark that sets the common rabble into action and 1/2 the time the common rabble will fail in this simple task leaving the hero to swoop in anyway and now save both of them.


I am slightly bitter as I have been hit with this by multiple GMs and printed scenarios before. It is a common trope in almost all table top games. Even in villain games. "Why am I surrounded by IMBICILES?!" "If you want something done right, do it yourself", and "Why must I do everything?"
omg that's such a cheap trope, no self respecting dm should do that ok, guilty as charged, i've done that a lot of times :smallbiggrin:.
but in my defence, my npcs don't act like idiots, unless they are supposed to be idiots. and yes, having your npcs take the idiot ball too much is bad dming, it ruins immersion. it's hard to care for the campaign world when it's populated by dumbasses.
so, when i do set up npcs to fail so that pcs can shine, i try to make them fail in realistic ways. in the given example, npcs would carry a wounded to safety and set up a bucket chain, leaving the pcs to do the high level action stuff. last time i had a whole 20th level npc party being wiped out by the villain to show how powerful the villain is, but they acted reasonably and did nothing wrong; it's just that the villain really is that powerful. and i got to show the party the villain's main strenghts, so that they can try and plan around them.

halfeye
2021-11-24, 02:45 PM
Relations be it family or others can be used to make drama. Remember that book/comic/tvshow/movie about that orphan that knew nobody and just went about killing stuff? I don't.

It's called "A Practical Guide to Evil" and it's a webserial, also Batman, Superman.

Mordar
2021-11-24, 03:39 PM
So... I'm a new player, been playing over voice chat for a year. It's a great group - we have a nice mix of RP and combat, the GM plays fair and tries to only mostly kill us, and everybody gets along. They've been very welcoming, and though I'm still not hugely confident I always look forward to our sessions.

We're currently level 11. Last game we found out that my character's parents have been taken away by the guards and her grandfather was murdered. This was a nice bit of drama and not entirely unexpected. After a bit of investigating, we turned around and saw a dragon flap down onto the roof of their house and start burning it down, along with much of the neighbourhood. At this point, I couldn't think of any reason my character would have not to go into this.
a) her grandfather's corpse was inside and she'd been hoping to resurrect him
b) her home, her parents' livelihood and neighbourhood is being destroyed
c) people are dying right now, people she grew up with


..."It's what my character would do" is usually quoted as something That Guy says, and I don't want to be That Guy.

I don't think anybody's (very) bitter, and we talked a bit after the game, but still - :smallfrown: I'm not happy with myself.

tl;dr my character's decisions got three PCs killed, one of them my own, and I feel a bit ****. How can I do better?

Anything less than your response and I'd be compelled to ask why you didn't do better. That assumes you were playing a heroic game, not some sort of villains game or something like that. It appears to me that the DM is the point of failure here. If it was as simple as setting the dragon up as the BBEG, the dragon could have done all of that arson while the PCs were too far away to do anything other than come upon the still-burning timbers/corpses and watch it fly away.

Every part of this feels like a trap as first glance. One that you had to walk into face first.


It's called "A Practical Guide to Evil" and it's a webserial, also Batman, Superman.

Bats and Superman have all kind of relationship levers to pull. There is a radical difference between "orphan so I can be completely immune to interpersonal levers" and "orphaned to establish story parameters"...especially when both of the tights-wearing characters had excruciatingly strong/moral/valuable surrogate parents.

- M

WindStruck
2021-11-24, 03:51 PM
It really sounds like this is all on the GM, actually.

What reason does some dragon have flapping down out of the blue and torching some random peasants' houses? But it just so happens, the house where your grandfather's corpse rests?

I think it's a blatant case of excessive GM fiat. You're being forced into a situation where something your character holds dear is being threatened. You chose to do what made sense for your character, and party members died. But if you didn't do that, you could be called out for being a munchkin, a meta gamer, or a poor role player.

Seriously, it's the GM. If there was supposed to be some shadowy conspiracy where people wanted to destroy evidence and get rid of some bodies, it could have just been some more mundane people committing arson. The situation did not call for a dragon at all.

Easy e
2021-11-26, 10:14 AM
I see a lot of people trying to blame the DM. Please stop! Being a DM is already thankless and difficult enough!

Everything that happened here was tragic and a bummer, but also mundane and ordinary. It sucks, but it happens.

Drogorn
2021-11-26, 10:18 AM
Now daddy wants you to join the Secret Order of your Paladin family. The Sacred order of Illumination was established to protect people from themselves.....if you don't...well Fnord! Now you know too much!


Mommy is not happy that you took Warlock/Sorcerer levels....this is not how you do things in this family.


Relations be it family or others can be used to make drama. Remember that book/comic/tvshow/movie about that orphan that knew nobody and just went about killing stuff? I don't.

Given that many GM's use it very badly to force a plot by killing or kidnapping. And even when Players show up with orphan PC then creative GM's just tell them their father is Darth Vader.....instant drama. How is the PC going to tackle that?

Yes, but you see, now you had to get creative since the family isn't a bunch of helpless commoners. Mission accomplished!

GloatingSwine
2021-11-26, 12:45 PM
By being undead before the game starts and simply having outlived all their relatives, who all died peacefully of old age. :smalltongue:

Serious answer - by telling the GM OOC they don't want family drama, and leaving the game if the GM decides to insert some anyway. It's not a big ask, and if the GM's unwilling to give on that one point, that's a huge red flag of being a control freak. But conversely you do need to say it OOC, because a number of players would enjoy that kind of drama OOC even if their character would hate it IC.

"My druid was raised by weasels, their average lifespan is like 10 years you're 4 generations too late to threaten my parents"

Pex
2021-11-27, 01:23 PM
I see a lot of people trying to blame the DM. Please stop! Being a DM is already thankless and difficult enough!

Everything that happened here was tragic and a bummer, but also mundane and ordinary. It sucks, but it happens.

The DM is not always right. You can disagree this DM in particular did anything wrong, but being the DM is not all by itself proof of innocence.

King of Nowhere
2021-11-27, 04:38 PM
I see a lot of people trying to blame the DM. Please stop! Being a DM is already thankless and difficult enough!

Everything that happened here was tragic and a bummer, but also mundane and ordinary. It sucks, but it happens.


The DM is not always right. You can disagree this DM in particular did anything wrong, but being the DM is not all by itself proof of innocence.
more to the point, being "wrong" does not imply fault or, even less, maliciousness. people are wrong all the time. especially in games.

Being wrong should be treated as a learning experience more often. whenever my players do something stupid and get killed, or do something that derails the campaign too badly, i ask myself if i could have done something better to avoid it.
Same if i die as a player.

Witty Username
2021-11-27, 09:34 PM
It sounds like your character did something that made emotional sense that was a bad idea and bad stuff happened, sounds like normal gaming.

Duff
2021-11-28, 04:57 PM
DM: "Okay, as you guys are preparing to set off for the dungeon of Blex, PC receives an emergency message. The orphanage you grew up in was attacked and Mrs Gubersmith, the kindly old cook of the orphanage, and the only person who ever showed you any love when you were growing up has been kidnapped by evil wizards."

PC: "God dammit!"

Lol.

But also, if your players really feel like "Goddammit" when you connect adventures to their character and add drama and complexity, maybe they want to play muderhobos and you're overthinking this

Pex
2021-11-28, 07:51 PM
Lol.

But also, if your players really feel like "Goddammit" when you connect adventures to their character and add drama and complexity, maybe they want to play muderhobos and you're overthinking this

Some players like to play House so to speak. When they create family and childhood friends and small towns back home they're meant for downtime roleplaying. They exist for the sake of existing, not an invitation to be a McGuffin in distress to deal with whatever Doom they have to stop. If the party needs to travel somewhere but just happen to need to travel through the hometown, it's fun for them to not worry about the Crisis for a game session and deal with domesticity. Visit old pals. Invite the party over for dinner and have your parents embarrass you with DM impromptu childhood anecdotes. Have a childhood friend gush over your accomplishments, hinting to wanting to become your boyfriend/girlfriend because he or she had a crush on you. Maybe there can be a local bully or politician or merchant or someone causing local trouble not related to the Campaign Plot you can take care of (without killing) no problem because you are an adventurer of much higher level, skill, and fame.

Rynjin
2021-11-28, 09:40 PM
One of the most fun campaign sessions I've had is playing the role of another player's overbearing mother when he went back to visit them while we're in town.

"You spent all that time learning magic and you couldn't send your deal old mother a message? And why are you traveling around so much anyway? Couldn't settle down, find a nice girl and a real career instead of wandering around like some vagrant? I always told you you'd have made a good lawyer with those smarts of yours instead of just shooting sparks out your fingers. Who's that gonna impress?"

Xervous
2021-11-29, 09:14 AM
Lol.

But also, if your players really feel like "Goddammit" when you connect adventures to their character and add drama and complexity, maybe they want to play muderhobos and you're overthinking this

Why does it have to jump right to kidnapping and bodily harm? If you have reason to suspect the GM is going to string backstory NPCs up as emotional piñatas you’re heavily dissuaded from using them as context and scenery.

When was the last time any of you guys remember your GM/you as a GM pulling in a backstory character for a positive scene?

Easy e
2021-11-29, 11:38 AM
The DM is not always right. You can disagree this DM in particular did anything wrong, but being the DM is not all by itself proof of innocence.

Sure. DMs make mistakes all the time. Last I checked, they are people and people are inherently prone to mistakes. Players also make mistakes all the time, and non-players make mistakes all the time too. If they are people, they make mistakes.

Making a mistake, is different from assigning blame. I see a lot of "blame" going on. On these boards, I see a lot of posters like to assign blame to DMs. There is no need to blame in order to resolve a root cause problem, it will probably make your root cause analysis worse if you do.

If we replaced said DM with any other random DM and the same thing could have happened, it is not a DM issue. It is a process issue.

Easy e
2021-11-29, 11:45 AM
Why does it have to jump right to kidnapping and bodily harm? If you have reason to suspect the GM is going to string backstory NPCs up as emotional piñatas you’re heavily dissuaded from using them as context and scenery.

When was the last time any of you guys remember your GM/you as a GM pulling in a backstory character for a positive scene?

Much like in real life, personal relationships are often a complication to your goals; just not always as extreme as "They got kidnapped". Often, it is simply trying to be a good friend in a bad situation, or deciding how to prioritize your time.

For example, over the weekend you want to play D&D with your group. However, your aunt is having surgery and you know your Mom will want you to call and check in on her. How do you do both things? Can you? I.e. a Complication. These low level complications are the type of things I expect background NPCs to provide for a player. Sure, I want to go storm a dungeon this weekend, but I have to help with the harvest; how can my character do both?

Duff
2021-12-02, 04:50 PM
Some players like to play House so to speak. When they create family and childhood friends and small towns back home they're meant for downtime roleplaying. They exist for the sake of existing, not an invitation to be a McGuffin in distress to deal with whatever Doom they have to stop. If the party needs to travel somewhere but just happen to need to travel through the hometown, it's fun for them to not worry about the Crisis for a game session and deal with domesticity. Visit old pals. Invite the party over for dinner and have your parents embarrass you with DM impromptu childhood anecdotes. Have a childhood friend gush over your accomplishments, hinting to wanting to become your boyfriend/girlfriend because he or she had a crush on you. Maybe there can be a local bully or politician or merchant or someone causing local trouble not related to the Campaign Plot you can take care of (without killing) no problem because you are an adventurer of much higher level, skill, and fame.

Fair point. "Leave my character's emotional connections for lighthearted RP!!" is a totally legit thing

I forget some games are not "all trauma, All the Time". Been too long since ive had one

King of Nowhere
2021-12-03, 07:49 AM
Why does it have to jump right to kidnapping and bodily harm? If you have reason to suspect the GM is going to string backstory NPCs up as emotional piñatas you’re heavily dissuaded from using them as context and scenery.

When was the last time any of you guys remember your GM/you as a GM pulling in a backstory character for a positive scene?

we've done it at my table. MUCH more often than we ever did "oh no! your loved ones are in danger! swallow this cheap plot hook!". And we never, ever considered doing "this villain has killed your loved ones! now you can swear revenge and chase after him!"

yes, hanging out in this forum gives me an even greater appreciation for my party

dafrca
2021-12-03, 01:04 PM
When was the last time any of you guys remember your GM/you as a GM pulling in a backstory character for a positive scene?
I have never seen this as a player in the whole time I have been playing. Always a negative or life threatening situations or ignored completely. :smalleek:

WindStruck
2021-12-03, 09:41 PM
I see a lot of people trying to blame the DM. Please stop! Being a DM is already thankless and difficult enough!

Everything that happened here was tragic and a bummer, but also mundane and ordinary. It sucks, but it happens.

The DM is the one who decided to bring a dragon into the scene, and in what looks like a contrived and ham-handed fashion. I couldn't place blame on anyone else.

Mystic Muse
2021-12-05, 02:39 AM
When was the last time any of you guys remember your GM/you as a GM pulling in a backstory character for a positive scene?

1. Character's still living ancestor promises to help him take down his evil dad, and to be less evil for the next Thousand years. Evil dad is trying to usurp her.
2. Character mostly resolves things with his cousin tgat he has family drama with. Granted, this is after said cousin assassinated him (character resurrected into sainthood. The assassin did things through the proper traditions and got away freely. They also has fulfilled their contract, the character getting back up after dying wasn't their problem.)
3. Character returns to her clan's ancestral lands because she feels a calling. Things go quite well reuniting woth her mother, and the spirots of her ancestors help her permanently bond to her clan's lands.


I try to have significant story beats like these forvpeoples' characters without taking the easy way out and having them threatened or kidnapped.

Easy e
2021-12-06, 11:09 AM
The DM is the one who decided to bring a dragon into the scene, and in what looks like a contrived and ham-handed fashion. I couldn't place blame on anyone else.

Why do you feel the need to place blame?

Mordar
2021-12-06, 02:14 PM
Why do you feel the need to place blame?

Isolation of the point of failure is important if there is to be understanding/improvement/processing.

- M

Draconi Redfir
2021-12-06, 02:21 PM
OP, you did nothing wrong. i likely would have done the same in that situation. Perhaps the DM could have helped out a little more by having some guards or civilians assist in the fight to at least draw the dragon's attacks, but all in all, i don't think it's his fault either.

what's important is that you all bounce back from this and keep going. Roll with the punches and hit back harder.

Duff
2021-12-06, 04:32 PM
Why do you feel the need to place blame?
OP "Bad things happened and it might be my fault"
Us "It's not your fault"
Obvious question "Um, OK, then why did bad things happen?"

Draconi Redfir
2021-12-06, 07:06 PM
Obvious question "Um, OK, then why did bad things happen?"

because sometimes bad things just happen. Sometimes you can do everything right, and something bad still just happens. it's absolutely possible for bad things to happen without anyone being to blame for it, that's just how the world works.

dafrca
2021-12-06, 09:03 PM
because sometimes bad things just happen. Sometimes you can do everything right, and something bad still just happens. it's absolutely possible for bad things to happen without anyone being to blame for it, that's just how the world works.

So easy to say and yet seems very hard for many to understand and accept. :smallsmile:

Pex
2021-12-06, 09:59 PM
because sometimes bad things just happen. Sometimes you can do everything right, and something bad still just happens. it's absolutely possible for bad things to happen without anyone being to blame for it, that's just how the world works.

True, but nothing in the game exists without the DM's permission. It was the DM who placed the dragon there. Even in my first response I allowed the possibility the DM made an honest mistake. That happens sometimes too. It's not a question of blame yet, just that it was a mistake. We don't know for certain from the original posting if it's a mistake or deliberate instigation. The possible mistake is not the dragon existing at all but that the DM meant it as a cinematic scene for the party to witness only as a set-up for the adventure to come. The DM did not think the players could or would intervene.

Easy e
2021-12-07, 10:06 AM
OP "Bad things happened and it might be my fault"
Us "It's not your fault"
Obvious question "Um, OK, then why did bad things happen?"

Did something bad happen here?

Easy e
2021-12-07, 10:08 AM
Isolation of the point of failure is important if there is to be understanding/improvement/processing.

- M

Which is not blame. That is root cause analysis and it should be free of "blame" assignment and future focused.

Xervous
2021-12-07, 10:24 AM
Which is not blame. That is root cause analysis and it should be free of "blame" assignment and future focused.

Someone’s gotta have ownership of the game. If not the GM, then whom?

Draconi Redfir
2021-12-07, 10:54 AM
Someone’s gotta have ownership of the game. If not the GM, then whom?

nobody. full stop.

GloatingSwine
2021-12-07, 01:33 PM
The possible mistake is not the dragon existing at all but that the DM meant it as a cinematic scene for the party to witness only as a set-up for the adventure to come. The DM did not think the players could or would intervene.

Quite possible.

Every game system's book or section on GMing should begin with the quote:

“Some humans would do anything to see if it was possible to do it. If you put a large switch in some cave somewhere, with a sign on it saying 'End-of-the-World Switch. PLEASE DO NOT TOUCH', the paint wouldn't even have time to dry.”

Then they will understand that whatever they put in the scene, the players are going to fiddle with it, even if it's a dragon.

Easy e
2021-12-07, 03:49 PM
Someone’s gotta have ownership of the game. If not the GM, then whom?

Everyone at the table owns the game.

Mordar
2021-12-07, 04:40 PM
Which is not blame. That is root cause analysis and it should be free of "blame" assignment and future focused.

Blame: To find fault with; to hold responsible; to place responsibility for; at fault.

Perhaps it is the connotations that some people find unpalatable.


Everyone at the table owns the game.

Truth. I would quibble about relative shares of ownership though. But this isn't about ownership of the game (or shouldn't be). It probably isn't even about ownership of the mistake...it is about one player asking if they own the mistake.

- M

Kardwill
2021-12-08, 05:09 AM
Some players like to play House so to speak. When they create family and childhood friends and small towns back home they're meant for downtime roleplaying. They exist for the sake of existing, not an invitation to be a McGuffin in distress to deal with whatever Doom they have to stop.

Nowadays, my method is to simply let the player decide. By default, I will do mostly light stuff with "Players NPCs", at worst "daily life complications" or emotional scenes. I will mostly follow the player's lead on such things (If he roleplays a conflict with the PC's dad, I will have that conflict play a part in the game, for example). But if I want to do heavier stuff, I will directly ask that player's explicit consent beforehand.

Stuff like "So, for the last few games, several of the bad guys were older members of the White council. Since Jenny's dead mom was a senior member of the white council, do you think she was involved in that stuff, or not? And did your non-sorcerer dad know about it?"
or
"Did your character recieve news from home about the war brewing north, or is your family domain out of danger?"

Some players will enthusiastically jump on the opportunity of having their background feature front and center in the campaign, others will say they prefer to leave it lighthearted, others will tell me that they're okay with their paladin cousin being involved in the coming war, but not to touch their dog, their kid sister or their old parent's home village. Their character's environment, their choice.

And I try to do the same if a player has become emotionally involved in one of the NPCs in the campaign. They may be "my" NPCs, but if they become a PC's spouse, ward, close friend (or pet, or home, or starship), they become one of theirs too.

Some players want their PNPC to be part of the greater campaign (for example, in our current PBTA cop-drama game, I very obviously and openly set up my PC's corrupt politician dad as a potential big bad if the GM and the other players want to run with it), but as a GM, it's my job to ensure they're okay with it. I want my players to have fun with their PCs' exciting and complicated lives, but I don't want to cause them distress or unease. I think that kind of things are part of the emotional security package, and as such, are subject to the player's consent.

AdAstra
2021-12-08, 08:50 AM
At least without any further context, I would consider this to be a pretty big bummer, but not your fault. However, I do think the DM probably could have done a number of things better to get a more satisfactory result.

Everything you did was fully in character and narratively satisfying, but the result was very clearly unsatisfying. "PC's family is wrecked, a Dragon burns all their stuff and then the PC" is very clearly a not ideal result, and without further context a pretty severe letdown. But that really can't be attributed to anything your PC could have done differently.

The bucket brigade sounds pretty weird. If you're not gonna risk the dragon, then run away or help evac survivors, why are you hanging around worrying about property damage while your friends are dying and there's a big dragon sitting there still burning stuff? Not participating in the fight is perfectly reasonable, I want to stress. Not participating in a fight because you're running a bucket brigade seems like the Lawful equivalent of being too busy looting the room while a big fight is going on.

****ing around with PC family members while they're not looking and unable to meaningfully prevent it is usually not going to end well without explicit buy-in. It usually ends up like Fridging, but worse, since the DM's not the only one responsible for making the PC's story.

Particularly, having the dragon come in and start torching all the family's possessions (and the grandfather's body) is a fight most PCs would not reasonably refuse. Like, let's look at the potential reasons (that I can see) for the DM to do this setup.

-The DM wanted the PCs to fight the dragon and at least survive the experience. If the fight was too difficult by accident then that's a legitimate, but still bummer, screwup on the DM side. If the fight went poorly due to bad luck or the nonintervention of other PCs, that's still a huge bummer, but also just something that happens. If I could make an informed judgement that the fight was clearly winnable in the moment, I'd probably say that the PCs who ran away made a serious misjudgment.

-The DM wanted the PCs to run away from the dragon. This seems untenable to rely upon. The dragon's doing too much personalized taunting of the PC to assume they would do nothing. It's not like the PC's are already in a bad state or obviously unequipped to deal with the problem, by the looks of it. If this was the intention the DM should probably have set things up differently so that running away was clearly the only viable option, and even then it's can be a bit of a jerk move.

-The DM wanted the PCs to fight the dragon and die. It's not a very interesting story nor is it a mechanically interesting scenario, so it would be difficult to justify this at all.

-The DM just kinda threw a dragon at the PCs and didn't expect anything in particular. Seems pretty unlikely given a narrative was clearly being set up, and doesn't really make sense to just happen in a sandbox.

I would say only in the first scenario would the DM not be making an error in judgement, and even then there were probably ways to prevent it from happening.

Easy e
2021-12-08, 10:26 AM
To the OP, you are fine. Bad things happen to good characters all the time.

dafrca
2021-12-08, 01:14 PM
To the OP, you are fine. Bad things happen to good characters all the time.

Amen to this for sure. :smallsmile: