Fun Gestalt Builds for 3,5

[Jervis]

I'm looking to theorycraft some fun builds for a specific form a Gestalt game. This ruleset is meant to force everyone to use some of the weirder content in the system. One side has to primarily progress one of the following, ToB Initiator levels, Incarnum Meldshaping, Vestige Binding, Turenaming, or Shadow Magic. That is to say the majority of levels have to progress that and need to reach the 9th level spell equivalent without help from the other side. You can, say, use cleric on one side and crusader on the other for example until switching the crusader half to RKV and mostly use something else on the cleric side. You can't progress anything twice in a level so you can't gain two cleric levels by using cleric on one side and RKV on the other.

What are some fun weird builds you can do in this ruleset? I'd like to hear some ideas people get from reading this. Allowed content is all 1st party + dragon mag.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Warlock // Shadowcaster. The problem with Shadowcasters is that they have no sustain; lots of cool powers, but so few uses per day that they'll always struggle in combat. The main problem with Warlocks is a lack of versatility, but the only daily limits they have are HP (and maybe magic item charges).

Use your Warlock invocations for blasting, flight, all the things that you want to be able to do all day. Pick Shadowcaster mysteries to fill in the gaps, with cool utility/social/just niche powers that you could never justify spending an invocation on.

Maybe throw in Nosomatic Chirurgeon 1-4, which will progress either side, but also by RAW give you Adept casting (since neither Shadowcasters nor Warlocks are technically spellcasters). Ask your DM about that one first, though. Glimmerskin Halflings (from Dragon Magic, descendants of Gold Dragons) get heal as a permanent class skill, and so are worth considering if you go this route.


One class that goes well with most gestalts is Dragon Shaman, as its auras are almost completely passive, benefiting your party without costing you any action economy (maybe invest a feat into Double Draconic Aura at 12th level, but maybe not). The Con focus makes it an especially good pairing with Totemist or Incarnate from Magic of Incarnum. Ask your DM if you can count as (Dragonblood) subtype like Dragonfire Adepts do, because that gives you access to some exclusive (and excellent) Totemist soulmelds.

[lylsyly]

One I personally played was Unarmed Swordsage 20 /// Totemist 20. Very MAD but the way we roll attributes that's rarely a problem. Was fun to play too!

[Quertus]

Well, I don't know if it would be fun for anyone else but me to play, and I don't know if it works with your personal rules for gestalt, but…

If the GM would work with me to write up a Savage Species style progression, and it was solid / actually balanced to the table, and it only takes up one side of the gestalt?

Merilith on one side. On the other? Well, the limit on mass teleported points to totemist being a good choice. But I'd probably go with primarily Truenamer, with a level of Crusader thrown in for good measure.

Not great on passives (beyond what Merilith gives you), but lots of options on active abilities, from melee to (minor) healing to teleportation to (iirc, AFB) Animate Dead to Gate as a capstone (right? AFB, haven't played a Truenamer).

Sounds to me like it could be fun.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I've always been partial to using one side for manifesting (psion, namely), since there are lots of rules that allow psionics to support the other mechanics you mentioned, then using the other side primarily for dips, with factotum 3 (with Able Learner for all skills as class skills forever), totemist 2, swordsage 2+, and others filling up the other side. Use feats and powers to support the other side of the gestalt, including action economy enhancers (Linked Power + synchronicity is a favorite of mine) and psionic open chakra allows for some really high level chakra binding, since the power scales freely with augmentation (and thus, manifester level), and this grants access to chakra binds well before anyone else, even non-multiclassing incarnum users. Just boost your ML really high and make use of cost reduction strategies (of which there are many).

For instance...

Shaper 5/3.5 constructor (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b) 9 (with early entry)/anarchic initiate 5/shaper 1
...on one side, with...
Factotum 3/LA +1 race or template (such as dark creature human or changeling)/totemist 2/unarmed swordsage 2/whirling frenzy lion spirit totem barbarian 1/martial chaos monk 2/crusader 2/warblade 2/swordsage 3+/etc
...on the other...

...is really, really good. It can do virtually anything with the right loadout of feats, powers, maneuvers, soulmelds, and items. Just think about getting the phase cloak soulmeld bound to your shoulders chakra at level 7 and how much that would affect your ability to function both in and out of a fight. It's a fantastic defensive and maneuverability item, allowing you to bypass obstacles and AoOs whenever you move more than 5'. It also helps you to scout, since you can simply phase through walls and doors like they're not even there.

And you can use the non-manifesting side of the gestalt to fill in the ML holes in the other side. For instance, when you'd lose a ML to constructor, take a level of psion on the other side to keep your ML up.

[Gnaeus]

Boring, but warblade is one of the classic wizard gestalts. Providing pretty much everything wizard lacks and fixing the low level issues, so from a power perspective, optimized wizard with PRCs//Warblade 20 is as good as it gets.

At the other end, Truenamer//Marshal is better than the sum of its parts. Motivate Intelligence helps truespeak numbers, and with knowledge devotion is a good fighter type. But since marshal is really only a dip, you could throw in anything you want on that side after about 2-3 levels. I’d consider Samurai, because truenamer and marshal would both help intimidate lockdown, or Rogue for skill mastery truespeach and lots of skills for truenamer to buff.

If LA or monstrous progression is allowed on one side, that would be even better. If not, any of the racial paragon classes that boost Cha or Int would be ok. So maybe something like marshal 1-3/wizard 1/half elf paragon 3/human paragon 3/elf paragon 3. This is also extremely good at maxing out any odd, potentially broken skill, like iajutsu focus, since you get adaptive learning and truenamer is good at buffing skill numbers.

[pabelfly]

I'd go Truenamer/Crusader for a melee gish character. Truenamer gives you swift-action casting (at 9th level) to augment your physical prowess, since Crusader is lacking in swift action attacks, and Crusader gives you the martial stuff you want. Bonus points if you pick up Aura of Perfect Order to be able to take 11 on all your Truespeak checks.

[Wildstag]

Incarnum on one side, anything else on the other side. Incarnum is fun in general, but hard to justify outside of Gestalt.

[Maat Mons]

Warblade always tempts me in gestalt. Moment of Perfect Mind, Sudden Leap, Mind Over Body, Iron Heart Surge, White Raven Tactics, Iron Heart Focus, and Iron Heart Endurance are nice-to-haves on most characters.

For someone looking to subvert the intent of the restrictions, Tome of Battle classes are nice in that you could devote 6 levels of that side of your build to something else while still getting 9th-level maneuvers by 20th level.

A build which springs to mind is Paladin 4 / Warblade 14 / ??? 2 // Cloistered Cleric 5 / Divine Oracle 10 / Contemplative 5.

Paladin gets you Divine Grave (which can be converted to Wis with the Serenity feat, immunity to Compulsions (via Paladin of Freedom Variant), immunity to Death effects (via Aura of Sanctity ACF), Power Attack as a bonus feat (via holy Warrior ACF), and Darkvision and Low-Light Vision (via Angel's Sight ACF). Cleric Gets you Turn Undead, plus the Pride domain and one other. Contemplative gets you immunity to Poison and Disease. And Divine Oracle gives numerous goodies.

[Jervis]

I've always been partial to using one side for manifesting (psion, namely), since there are lots of rules that allow psionics to support the other mechanics you mentioned, then using the other side primarily for dips, with factotum 3 (with Able Learner for all skills as class skills forever), totemist 2, swordsage 2+, and others filling up the other side. Use feats and powers to support the other side of the gestalt, including action economy enhancers (Linked Power + synchronicity is a favorite of mine) and psionic open chakra allows for some really high level chakra binding, since the power scales freely with augmentation (and thus, manifester level), and this grants access to chakra binds well before anyone else, even non-multiclassing incarnum users. Just boost your ML really high and make use of cost reduction strategies (of which there are many).

For instance...

Shaper 5/3.5 constructor (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b) 9 (with early entry)/anarchic initiate 5/shaper 1
...on one side, with...
Factotum 3/LA +1 race or template (such as dark creature human or changeling)/totemist 2/unarmed swordsage 2/whirling frenzy lion spirit totem barbarian 1/martial chaos monk 2/crusader 2/warblade 2/swordsage 3+/etc
...on the other...

...is really, really good. It can do virtually anything with the right loadout of feats, powers, maneuvers, soulmelds, and items. Just think about getting the phase cloak soulmeld bound to your shoulders chakra at level 7 and how much that would affect your ability to function both in and out of a fight. It's a fantastic defensive and maneuverability item, allowing you to bypass obstacles and AoOs whenever you move more than 5'. It also helps you to scout, since you can simply phase through walls and doors like they're not even there.

And you can use the non-manifesting side of the gestalt to fill in the ML holes in the other side. For instance, when you'd lose a ML to constructor, take a level of psion on the other side to keep your ML up.

I actually didn’t know constructor got a update. Is there a way to buff astral constructs with self powers like Expansion? I ask because that gives me some interesting ideas.


Warblade always tempts me in gestalt. Moment of Perfect Mind, Sudden Leap, Mind Over Body, Iron Heart Surge, White Raven Tactics, Iron Heart Focus, and Iron Heart Endurance are nice-to-haves on most characters.

For someone looking to subvert the intent of the restrictions, Tome of Battle classes are nice in that you could devote 6 levels of that side of your build to something else while still getting 9th-level maneuvers by 20th level.

A build which springs to mind is Paladin 4 / Warblade 14 / ??? 2 // Cloistered Cleric 5 / Divine Oracle 10 / Contemplative 5.

Paladin gets you Divine Grave (which can be converted to Wis with the Serenity feat, immunity to Compulsions (via Paladin of Freedom Variant), immunity to Death effects (via Aura of Sanctity ACF), Power Attack as a bonus feat (via holy Warrior ACF), and Darkvision and Low-Light Vision (via Angel's Sight ACF). Cleric Gets you Turn Undead, plus the Pride domain and one other. Contemplative gets you immunity to Poison and Disease. And Divine Oracle gives numerous goodies.

If possible I’d also grab the OA fortune domain for a 1/day Reroll and the Substitution spell. Substitution is basically 750 GP for 100 extra HP and halved damage till that runs out. Good for durability. You could also go Witch Hunter on the Warblade side for two levels to grab Kami’s Grace for another source of charisma to saves. At that point I’d be tempted to go Crusader instead of Warblade for mettle but that’s debatable as to if it’s worth it.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I actually didn’t know constructor got a update. Is there a way to buff astral constructs with self powers like Expansion? I ask because that gives me some interesting ideas.The soul crystal from the MoI power of the same name would allow an astral construct that holds it to use the power contained within, although I wouldn't blame a DM for disallowing a mindless creature from using it. Them's houserules, though. RAW allows it. I think maybe a power storing weapon could do so, although that depends on the exact definition of "single targeted power." Yes, self-only powers only affect a single creature (that is, you), but it's a bit fuzzy. You'd have to store expansion in the weapon and then whack the astral construct with it.

If you could share alter self, greater metamorphosis, or shapechange (not metamorphosis, since that disallows ectoplasmic creatures, nor polymorph, since it specifies living creature) with your psicrystal to turn it into an astral construct, that could work too, since nothing in either the Boost Construct feat nor the 3.5 constructor PrC require you to create an astral construct with the astral construct power to gain their benefits. You're still creating an astral construct out of your psicrystal, just not ex nihilo.

[Thurbane]

For me, gestalt is a great chance to put two not-so-great classes together, to become a more powerful or versatile class.

I've been pondering Hexblade, and what might work well with it...

Aside from full casters, I think these might be interesting:

Hexblade//Marshal
Hexblade//Dragon Shaman
Hexblade//Binder

[Gnaeus]

For me, gestalt is a great chance to put two not-so-great classes together, to become a more powerful or versatile class.

I've been pondering Hexblade, and what might work well with it...

Aside from full casters, I think these might be interesting:

Hexblade//Marshal
Hexblade//Dragon Shaman
Hexblade//Binder

Marshal and Dragon Shaman don’t fit the brief, but hexblade does gestalt well with binder or Shadowcaster.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Paladin with Battle Blessing would be a good pairing with most of the subsystems, letting you cast as a swift action while leaving your main actions free for everything else. You would have to be a little careful picking your maneuvers (for ToB) or soulmelds (for MoI) so that you won't need to switch stances, reallocate essentia, or use boosts/counters too often in combat, to make sure that your swift action stays free for when you need it.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you can somehow coerce shadowcasting into counting as arcane, adding spellthief on one side of the gestalt and the Master Spellthief feat would basically double your CL.

[Jervis]

If you can somehow coerce shadowcasting into counting as arcane, adding spellthief on one side of the gestalt and the Master Spellthief feat would basically double your CL.

If it did I would say Spellthief into Ur-preist into Mystic Theurge on one side with shadow caster on the other. Not sure if there’s a good way to do that though.

[vasilidor]

Rogue into Shadow Dancer on one side, Warlock on the other. It was fun. The eldritch blast stacked with sneak attack and I got a few cool tricks that helped with being a rogue.
For pathfinder I want to try Fey Adept (spheres of Power), Rogue (Canny Scoundrel Archetype from Spheres of Might).
Soul Knife & Psion was fun in 3.5.
In the future, If I do 3.5 again as a Gestalt, a druid barbarian of some sort called angry bear. Turn into a bear, summon some bears, and rage.

[Thurbane]

Marshal and Dragon Shaman don’t fit the brief, but hexblade does gestalt well with binder or Shadowcaster.

Yep, I should have read the OP in full. :smallredface:

[PoeticallyPsyco]

If it did I would say Spellthief into Ur-preist into Mystic Theurge on one side with shadow caster on the other. Not sure if there’s a good way to do that though.

With Shadowcaster on the other side, Spellthief 5 with the Educated or Apprentice feat will do it.

[Maat Mons]

I just noticed the opening post said Ruby Knight Vindicator is okay. So I guess the standard gestalt prohibition against prestige classes that hybridize two base classes isn't being enforced. Any other deviations from standard gestalt? For example, do you allow prestige classes on both sides at the same time? Are you using fractional progressions? Or maybe that variant of fractional progressions where you only get the +2 once per save?

[vasilidor]

If things like mystic theurge are *on* the table, I would do mystic theurge (cleric/wizard) on one side, psion on other, because I could. any way to get triple 9s?

[Jervis]

If things like mystic theurge are *on* the table, I would do mystic theurge (cleric/wizard) on one side, psion on other, because I could. any way to get triple 9s?

Bamboo Spiritfolk Wizard 3, Cleric 3, Mystic Theurge 10, Arcane Hirophant 4. If flaws are allowed Earth Spell can lets you in as early as wiz 1, cler 2. Alternatively there's a elf PrC that gives trackless step at level 1 so that can let you in as well. Fudging the rules a bit lets you just trade 3 pison levels for druid levels to get a animal companion and trackless step and still get 9th level powers by 20th.


I just noticed the opening post said Ruby Knight Vindicator is okay. So I guess the standard gestalt prohibition against prestige classes that hybridize two base classes isn't being enforced. Any other deviations from standard gestalt? For example, do you allow prestige classes on both sides at the same time? Are you using fractional progressions? Or maybe that variant of fractional progressions where you only get the +2 once per save?

For the purposes of this id probably say no two prestige classes at once unless its a prestige class that doesn't progress anything being progressed by another one. So RKV + Gryphon rider in a level would probably be fine but RKV + Divine Oracle on the same level wouldn't. As for BaB that's probably fractional just because otherwise Gestalt is a headache to calculate. Saves are weird too so probably just fractional there too.

[Ramza00]

I actually didn’t know constructor got a update. Is there a way to buff astral constructs with self powers like Expansion? I ask because that gives me some interesting ideas.


It is not 3.5, but Dreamscarred Pathfinder has Shared Power in Ultimate Psionic, a Metapsionic feat and your Psionic Focus allows you to manifest any personal power as a touch power, and if you pay 2 pp more it is instead close range.

[Maat Mons]

Revisiting the "be immune to a bunch of stuff" angle, something that's possible in gestalt is Cleric 4 / Bone Knight 10 / Contemplative 6. You just need the first four levels of the other side to have full base attack bonus and get ride as a class skill at some point.

You could even do Archivist 4 / Bone Knight 10 / Contemplative 6, but then the only option for the first four levels of other side is Paladin, since you need to get Turn Undead without losing any base attack bonus. Unfortunately, Archivist just doesn't synergize with Paladin as well as I'd like, since taking advantage of Divine Grace requires spreading your ability scores out.



Out of curiosity, what counts as "9th-level spell equivalent" for meldshaping? Is it opening the heart chakra? That's the only thing you can't get from the feats, except for the totem chakra, which Incarnates never get and Totemists get at 2nd level, and except for the soul chakra, which Totemists never get.

[Jervis]

Revisiting the "be immune to a bunch of stuff" angle, something that's possible in gestalt is Cleric 4 / Bone Knight 10 / Contemplative 6. You just need the first four levels of the other side to have full base attack bonus and get ride as a class skill at some point.

You could even do Archivist 4 / Bone Knight 10 / Contemplative 6, but then the only option for the first four levels of other side is Paladin, since you need to get Turn Undead without losing any base attack bonus. Unfortunately, Archivist just doesn't synergize with Paladin as well as I'd like, since taking advantage of Divine Grace requires spreading your ability scores out.



Out of curiosity, what counts as "9th-level spell equivalent" for meldshaping? Is it opening the heart chakra? That's the only thing you can't get from the feats, except for the totem chakra, which Incarnates never get and Totemists get at 2nd level, and except for the soul chakra, which Totemists never get.

I think heart chakra is the closest thing to it. But yeah Bone Knight is very fun, it gets most of the undead immunities without actually being undead. And that’s always fantastic.

[mabriss lethe]

Soulknife//Crusader or Warblade works fairly well. Admittedly, the initiator side is doing most of the heavy lifting, but by relying on strikes, that frees up the soulknife's relatively bad action economy and puts it to better use. Combining Psychic strike damage with a maneuver could add up pretty well, and diamond mind maneuvers especially play well with psionic focus. Sure, you still have all the other soulknife issues, but it holds up pretty well.

[Almus Rayne]

This is already a very well answered post, so just to share a little added flavor there is one recommendation that I always make to anyone who plays with the benefit of gestalting rules.

For any player who uses a unique character race with a level adjustment such as a vampire or a werewolf, I recommend gestalting the adjustment. I.E. Vampire has a level adjustment of 8 which means in order for a vampire PC to be level one and exist in a party, the rest of the party would need to be an average level of level 8. However you can help mitigate some of that bite if every PC in the game is also gestalting because even though everyone else might be 8 levels in two different classes, your character could at least be 8 levels in a single class while being 8 levels in vampire.

You can call that homebrew or overpowered if you want to, even though the same thing could be said about gestalting to begin with... but I call it mitigating character restrictions and I think it works out wonderfully.

[vasilidor]

This is already a very well answered post, so just to share a little added flavor there is one recommendation that I always make to anyone who plays with the benefit of gestalting rules.

For any player who uses a unique character race with a level adjustment such as a vampire or a werewolf, I recommend gestalting the adjustment. I.E. Vampire has a level adjustment of 8 which means in order for a vampire PC to be level one and exist in a party, the rest of the party would need to be an average level of level 8. However you can help mitigate some of that bite if every PC in the game is also gestalting because even though everyone else might be 8 levels in two different classes, your character could at least be 8 levels in a single class while being 8 levels in vampire.

You can call that homebrew or overpowered if you want to, even though the same thing could be said about gestalting to begin with... but I call it mitigating character restrictions and I think it works out wonderfully.

I have done this with a character before. level adjustments and monster levels only apply to one side of the gestalt.

[liquidformat]

For me, gestalt is a great chance to put two not-so-great classes together, to become a more powerful or versatile class.

I've been pondering Hexblade, and what might work well with it...

Aside from full casters, I think these might be interesting:

Hexblade//Marshal
Hexblade//Dragon Shaman
Hexblade//Binder

I'm still working on the build but have been thinking something like this: hexblade//Paladin of Tyranny4/Crusader 3/Divine Crusader 1/Warpriest 1/not sure what else/Contemplative 3-7 as a follower of Bel (LE, Greatsword, Domains: Baator, Destruction, Strength, War) seems like a pretty fun gish

For the main idea here I always like going Totemist//Barbarian 2/swordsage 4/FotF 3/weretouched master 5/warshaper 4/swordsage or warblade shifter becomes quite crazy especially if you are using the un-errata'ed version of weretouched master. Taking the extra level of swordsage upfront delays the build but allows you to bump unarmed damage to 1d10 with your first level of FotF and 2d6 with your 3rd which is a great return on three levels, I haven't gotten past level 12 with this thing so not sure about finishing it off but it works quite well as a blender especially with Shifter Savagery and extra rage feats.

For a non shifter version totemist//bear totem city brawler barbarian 3/ wild shape Champion of the Wild Ranger 5/ FotF 2/primeval 10 this is one of my personal favorite builds between city brawler bear totem barb and ranger you have all the prerequisite feats for FotF and primeval except for Power Attack and Self-Sufficient which leaves your build mostly open to taking other useful feats, I normally go full goody goody with VoP and dumping ranger casting for the extra feat works out nicely. Dire Puma and Dire Lion are normally your best bang for your buck though I have had dms in the past let me choose a primeval form based on my hd upon entering primeval in which case hand down go for smilodon.

[Maat Mons]

Elfy Elf
Wizard 5 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Divine Oracle 10
//
Fighter 1 / Duskblade 3 / Warblade 6 / Eternal Blade 10



Creepy Elf
Wizard 5 / Pale Master 10 / ??? 5
//
Duskblade 3 / Warblade 2 / Wizard +1 / Warblade +4 / Eternal Blade 10



Creepy Dude of Indeterminate Race
Cleric 4 / Bone Knight 10 / Contemplative 6
//
Paladin 2 / ??? 4 / Crusader 14

[Lorddenorstrus]

Paladin with Battle Blessing would be a good pairing with most of the subsystems, letting you cast as a swift action while leaving your main actions free for everything else. You would have to be a little careful picking your maneuvers (for ToB) or soulmelds (for MoI) so that you won't need to switch stances, reallocate essentia, or use boosts/counters too often in combat, to make sure that your swift action stays free for when you need it.

I actually devised an entire character around this concept. Paladins Battle Blessing - (PrC paladin to give Cleric all the spells) and I made a martial cleric with RKV in Gestalt that was entirely Swift Action based. Specifically... to teach my group to stop forgetting all their swift action stuff. SO I just said the word every other minute and eventually the point got across. Actually ended out being one of the most fun characters I've ever played. If I could get back to being a player for once and not a forever DM...

[RSGA]

A fun way to kinda do the Diamond Dragon PRC but more fun is a gestalt Totemist 20/PsyWarrior X. You need to have the dragonblood subtype to get the Dragon Hide ACF (for flavor) and the all day claws and tail, but it's pretty wide open beyond wanting to take Totemist the whole way. Admittedly, that's because there's not a lot of options for advancing Meldshaping that are both gestalt legal and don't overtake the build in a big way.

Now, the PsyWarrior side is very open. If you both decide to take the Dragon Hide ACF and want to get its utmost benefit, then you probably want to end with that side being PW10/Slayer10 unless you have another heavy armor Psionic Prc you want to fit in its place. Dragon Hide is nothing all that grand, but the main reason would be either cost cutting or because it's flavorful. And one level of manifesting for 10 levels of full BAB and Slayer qualities is practically no loss at all.

Now if you don't mind losing some of that benefit or feel it's a bridge too far for flavor, then you really open up the choices for Psionic Prcs. Meditant is seven kinds of versatile; stat bonuses and extra PP or even fast healing are just the floor. Keeping on theme, there's the weaker but easier to get Crystal Master. It's more on theme and is also versatile, but it loses two manifester levels and more importantly can't change it up like the Meditant can. Still, it's an unusual typed +6 to your saving throws (and AC if not using Dragon Hide, probably) and limited Telepathy which both are good and strong before getting into the other 3 powers. Probably two stat boosts and an immunity because the stat boosts don't have a type.

[Maat Mons]

If two lost manifester levels is one too many, you can just take the first eight levels of Crystal Master. Crystal Master 8 gives you four Embeded Gems for one lost manifester level. Going the last two levels loses you another manifester level and only gives you one more Embeded Gem. As a cost-value proposition, the first eight levels are four times as good as the last two.

I've always felt the strongest pick for an Embeded Gem is Sapphire. It gives continuous Touchsight as long as you're psionically focused. If you take eight levels of Crystal Master, the range becomes 50 feet. 50 feet is pretty good for what is effectively Blindsight, and keeping the power itself active 24/7 would cost a boatload of power points.

Malachite is nice, but I'm usually contemplating Crystal Master on a Psion base, and there's an ACF in Mind's Eye for Telepaths that gives Telepathy with a better range in exchange for the 5th-level bonus feat.

For thematic reasons, I like Blue Zircon. I've always felt that sine elans can, potentially, exist in the Venerable age category for untold eons, they would be well-served to pick up Timeless Body, and Blue Zircon is pretty much the same thing.

It's always struck me as funny that the one Embedded Gem the writers thought was so powerful that it needed to be restricted to only those who took all 10 levels in the class was Azurite. The freedom from needing to eat and drink is scarcely better than what elans get at 1st level. The lack of a need to sleep is of questionable benefit to manifesters, since they need to rest for 8 hours to regain power points even if they don't need to sleep.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

For thematic reasons, I like Blue Zircon. I've always felt that sine elans can, potentially, exist in the Venerable age category for untold eons, they would be well-served to pick up Timeless Body, and Blue Zircon is pretty much the same thing.Jade, I think you mean. "Jade: The crystal master is immune to aging attacks and doesn't suffer the effects of old age. (Any penalties already incurred stay in effect.) The character still dies of old age. (Level restriction: 4th.)"

[RSGA]

It's always struck me as funny that the one Embedded Gem the writers thought was so powerful that it needed to be restricted to only those who took all 10 levels in the class was Azurite. The freedom from needing to eat and drink is scarcely better than what elans get at 1st level. The lack of a need to sleep is of questionable benefit to manifesters, since they need to rest for 8 hours to regain power points even if they don't need to sleep.

My normal guess would that they felt that some combination of just being able to sit around for 8 hours (since the rules give that out for not needing to sleep, though I'm very roughly paraphrasing), one of the other powers, and being able to keep that focus all night allowed something Real Strong. Again, the normal guess would be something to do with the limited telepathy and Mindsight, but that doesn't require focus.

So my actual guesses are that they felt that keeping one of the focus needing powers was too good if you could keep it on all night at +5 gems worth of power (so 6 gems total) or that it's a hold over of some combo back in the 3.0 version, probably its interactions with the old Psionic Combat system.

[Particle_Man]

Incarnate//warlock, perhaps? I think there are some warlock invocations specific to incarnum builds and the ranged bonus to hit from incarnate avatar helps the warlock blast. You would have to be CN or NE though (unless you go for the enlightened spirit prestige class on the warlock side). If you go NE then the necrocarnate prestige class is an option.

This would not be a powerful build but might be a fun one.

[Harrow]

For a long time, I've wanted to try Incarnate//Crusader.

Incarnates get to choose from a ton of tanky abilities at level 1. Some pretty substantial DR/Magic (long before it becomes irrelevant), miss chance against non-adjacent foes, retributive fire damage, various energy resistances, spell resistance, ability damage reduction, healing amplification, bonus hit points, a soulspark familiar (basically just another body for enemies to have to target, long before AoEs become a major threat, and one that you can heal for free out of combat), and I'm wouldn't be surprised to learn there's at least one other effect I'm missing. All of those options... on a d6 hp-per-HD, Wizard BAB chassis with medium armor and simple weapons.

Crusader brings to the table d10 hp-per-HD, full BAB, heavy armor, martial weapons, some spammable healing, a delayed damage pool + attack bonuses for being damaged, and a no-save attack penalty against your allies for anything you threaten.

You can choose any of the options I've listed from level 1. Crusader also gives access to Stone Bones, which gives DR/adamantine 5 for a round and qualifies you for feat Stone Power. At level 2, Incarnates can start raising zombies at the cost of hit point damage that can't be healed until the zombie dies. Stone Power, however, gives you temporary hit points, which are damaged first and can be replaced. I suggest starting out with a donkey zombie, then moving on to a mule zombie at level 3 and a cow zombie (using the bison stats) at level 5.

Not sure how these classes scale into the late game. I'm pretty sure Incarnates give up a bunch of magic item slots, but get interesting effects out of them. They also get access to a scaling bonus to UMD (and can use it untrained, but, if you're planning on going this route, I'd suggest taking cross-class ranks anyway). Because UMD DCs are so high, it's not very useful at low levels, but once you can pump it up a bit, I'm sure you could get by on the Crusader chassis and WBLmancy and UMD.

[loky1109]

Hm... Shadowcaster//Shadowcaster? I think it's good fix. )))

[RSGA]

Not sure how these classes scale into the late game. I'm pretty sure Incarnates give up a bunch of magic item slots, but get interesting effects out of them. They also get access to a scaling bonus to UMD (and can use it untrained, but, if you're planning on going this route, I'd suggest taking cross-class ranks anyway). Because UMD DCs are so high, it's not very useful at low levels, but once you can pump it up a bit, I'm sure you could get by on the Crusader chassis and WBLmancy and UMD.

There's two ways around giving up item slots for bonding soulmelds. The most accessible is the feat that lets you do that, choosing one chakra per Split Chakra feat. You can even bind both soulmeld and magic item to the chakra at the same time, but that's a bit of a waste of a limited resource. The slightly less accessible is to make the item both an Incarnum Focus and whatever other effects you want it to have. You get added essentia cap and it can by default be active in the same slot as a bound soulmeld.

Plus it's bind effect is one of the ones that's probably worth spending an extra bind on.

[Shpadoinkle]

Fighter/incarnate pretty much fixes the problems of both. Incarnate's poor HD and 1/2 BAB get boosted to d10s and full BAB, while fighter gets abilities that aren't just "I hit/shoot/trip/charge it again." Or if you want you can lean into that and become REALLY GOOD at "I hit/shoot/trip/charge it again," several soulmelds enhance stuff like Strength checks or attack rolls.

Fighter/totemist might be better if you're focusing on being a combat monster (almost literally, in this case.) Sphinx Claws for instance do 1d8 + STR + essentia damage, and since they're considered natural weapons you only get a -2 for dual-wielding them. Or if you're focusing on melee, you can shape Manticore belt and bind it to your Totem chakra to give yourself a decent ranged attack that scales with your level, and you can use it without having to draw a different weapon. Full BAB and d10 HD aren't huge boosts over the totemist's d8s and 3/4 BAB, but the bonus feats add some significant versatility.

Or you could go totemist/incarnate for a ridiculous number of soulmelds and essentia. The primary drawback being you can only have a single soulmeld bound to a given chakra, but even given that limitation it gives you a LOT of versatility.

There are a couple soulmelds that enhance spells, but even barring that, gestalting totemist or incarnate with a full caster frees up some spells and grants some utility and combat options that don't use up spell slots. Bonuses to skills, for instance, and there are a couple soulmelds that enhance spells. A cleric/totemist or wizard/totemist with a couple self-buffing spells could be a force to be reckoned with. A couple soulmelds also grant Dimension Door as a spell-like ability, allowing for quick escapes or repositioning.

Soulborn sucks and we don't talk about him. I mean I get it, he's supposed to be to 'ranger' or 'paladin' type who uses incarnum instead of magic, but man, it's too little too late. You'd honestly be better off just taking two levels of incarnate or totemist and putting the rest in fighter. Gestalting doesn't help this at all, you'd be better off gestalting with a fighter if you want to fight, or with an incarnate or totemist if you want to shape soulmelds.

[Maat Mons]

I'm not familiar with vestige binding, but Binder seems like a good thematic fit with psionics. Psionics is associated with the Far Realms, and vestiges come from strange, quasi-existent entities.

How are you working the Tashalatora feat for this game?

[Jervis]

Fighter/incarnate pretty much fixes the problems of both. Incarnate's poor HD and 1/2 BAB get boosted to d10s and full BAB, while fighter gets abilities that aren't just "I hit/shoot/trip/charge it again." Or if you want you can lean into that and become REALLY GOOD at "I hit/shoot/trip/charge it again," several soulmelds enhance stuff like Strength checks or attack rolls.

Fighter/totemist might be better if you're focusing on being a combat monster (almost literally, in this case.) Sphinx Claws for instance do 1d8 + STR + essentia damage, and since they're considered natural weapons you only get a -2 for dual-wielding them. Or if you're focusing on melee, you can shape Manticore belt and bind it to your Totem chakra to give yourself a decent ranged attack that scales with your level, and you can use it without having to draw a different weapon. Full BAB and d10 HD aren't huge boosts over the totemist's d8s and 3/4 BAB, but the bonus feats add some significant versatility.

Or you could go totemist/incarnate for a ridiculous number of soulmelds and essentia. The primary drawback being you can only have a single soulmeld bound to a given chakra, but even given that limitation it gives you a LOT of versatility.

There are a couple soulmelds that enhance spells, but even barring that, gestalting totemist or incarnate with a full caster frees up some spells and grants some utility and combat options that don't use up spell slots. Bonuses to skills, for instance, and there are a couple soulmelds that enhance spells. A cleric/totemist or wizard/totemist with a couple self-buffing spells could be a force to be reckoned with. A couple soulmelds also grant Dimension Door as a spell-like ability, allowing for quick escapes or repositioning.

Soulborn sucks and we don't talk about him. I mean I get it, he's supposed to be to 'ranger' or 'paladin' type who uses incarnum instead of magic, but man, it's too little too late. You'd honestly be better off just taking two levels of incarnate or totemist and putting the rest in fighter. Gestalting doesn't help this at all, you'd be better off gestalting with a fighter if you want to fight, or with an incarnate or totemist if you want to shape soulmelds.

I’m convinced the guy who thought printing soulborn in the same book as Totemist was a good idea must have had a hand in making True Namer.


Hm... Shadowcaster//Shadowcaster? I think it's good fix. )))

I really want to play that as the edgiest OC imaginable. “I WAS BORN IN THE DARK!”


I'm not familiar with vestige binding, but Binder seems like a good thematic fit with psionics. Psionics is associated with the Far Realms, and vestiges come from strange, quasi-existent entities.

How are you working the Tashalatora feat for this game?

That… is a excellent question. I assume it just follows the no double dip rule so you can’t go Monk//Psion at any point and get double Monk scaling. Then again you couldn’t go that for very many levels and stay to the spirit of the rules so, eh. Plus getting double monk levels in a level hardly makes it good.

[liquidformat]

I’m convinced the guy who thought printing soulborn in the same book as Totemist was a good idea must have had a hand in making True Namer.

To Be fair if you turn Soulborn into a 10 level prc (https://docs.google.com/document/d/12pRnlqeuBFlC8owuIGpoddXdtp_2bM4rlnXq9cNWvvk/edit?usp=sharing) it turns it from horrible to very nice. Personally I think this is one of those like swashbuckler and probably soulknife that should have been PRCs...


How are you working the Tashalatora feat for this game?

From my experience in gestalt, class stacking feats and PRCs are banned unless you are in some crazy high op game...