Cast a non-ritual as a ritual. What breaks?

[Oramac]

Pretty much what the title says. Say you could cast a non-ritual spell as a ritual [ability mod] times per long rest. What (if anything) breaks at that point?

[Mastikator]

Is that ability mod times per day per spell or per spellcasting class? And is it only on classes that have ritual casting? This would be lovely on a low level sorcerer who doesn't want to spend a spell slot on mage armor but also doesn't want to lose hit points.

Paladins and rangers could also get a lot of mileage out of this and would be more happy to choose utility spells that are a bit more worth learning if you can now ritual cast them.

[EggKookoo]

I think that would vary based on the spell. Casting magic missile as a ritual? Probably not a big deal. Casting cure wounds as a ritual?

[JohnDaBarr]

Having Fabricate with some tools proficiency suddenly becomes very interesting? :D

*Need a castle? Give me a day or two.*

[Mastikator]

I think that would vary based on the spell. Casting magic missile as a ritual? Probably not a big deal. Casting cure wounds as a ritual?

Now that you mention it, casting Wish as a ritual 5 times per day breaks the game. Full stop.

I'd limit the ritual casting to spell levels 1,2,3 to be honest.

[Oramac]

Is that ability mod times per day per spell or per spellcasting class? And is it only on classes that have ritual casting? This would be lovely on a low level sorcerer who doesn't want to spend a spell slot on mage armor but also doesn't want to lose hit points.

Paladins and rangers could also get a lot of mileage out of this and would be more happy to choose utility spells that are a bit more worth learning if you can now ritual cast them.

Good questions. Honestly this is an idea for a homebrew I'm writing, so it would likely be ability mod per day per spell, and only on a class with ritual casting (outside of multiclassing).


I think that would vary based on the spell. Casting magic missile as a ritual? Probably not a big deal. Casting cure wounds as a ritual?

Lol. Yea magic missile might be a little silly. But cure wounds would be pretty powerful. A ritual is 10 minutes, so you'd only get 6 of them in a short rest. Not sure if that breaks the bag of rats rule or not, really.


Having Fabricate with some tools proficiency suddenly becomes very interesting? :D

*Need a castle? Give me a day or two.*

Hmm. This is what I was wondering about. How could something like this be broken? I'd say Fabricate would definitely be one way to do it.


Now that you mention it, casting Wish as a ritual 5 times per day breaks the game. Full stop.

I'd limit the ritual casting to spell levels 1,2,3 to be honest.

Good call. Definitely will add that.

[JellyPooga]

It would make utility spells much more powerful. Knock for example, barring the noise and time factors, renders Thieves Tools proficiency somewhat obsolete if you don't have to spend resources on it. Where it starts breaking the game rather than having either minor impact (e.g. Rope Trick or Goodberry) or impacting niche protection (e.g. the aforementioned Knock or scouting utilities like Clairvoyance or Arcane Eye), is when you get into the like of Mage Armour, Animate Dead, Heroes Feast and at an extreme Foresight which have long durations that can either be exploited or simply cast and forgotten about for a significant increase in power for Classes that have access to them.

I would seriously consider adding significant monetary cost to casting non-ritual spells as rituals (like, "orders of magnitude" significant) if you're going to try and implement something like this. We're talking maybe 10's of gp for 1st level, 100's for 2nd, 1000's for 3rd, etc. to make spam-casting prohibitively expensive. I'd also flat out ban many spells (e.g. Wish) from ever being cast ritually.

[JohnDaBarr]

IMO notable spells of first 3 levels that could be problematic.

Distort Value (Bard or Rogue would have a field day with this)
Suggestion (captured enemy does not wanna talk?)
Invisibility (basically for free, what could go wrong?)
Immovable Object (basically for free (25gp) what could go wrong?)
Enhance Ability (yeah, free advantage on whatever you need)
Darkvision (free fix for Humans and Dragonborns)
Alter Self (idk sounds fun)
Speak with Dead
Sending (literally wireless)
Remove Curse (curses are no longer an issue)
Nondetection (renders scrying obsolote)
Magic Circle (can become broken)
Glyph of Warding (not really cheap but with enough gold you can make mindfields or worse)
Fly (basically for free, what could go wrong?)
Dispel Magic (kills enchantments and illusions or any form of lasting magic)
Clairvoyance (you become CIA)
Animate Dead (basically for free, what could go wrong?)

[Amnestic]

Any spell that has a duration of 10+ minutes is likely to be affected significantly, since it then turns into a 'free' spell slot for prep pre-combat, especially hour long duration spells (such as Conjure [X] or Tasha's Summon spells).

[Bobthewizard]

It's not just a single spell that breaks, it's that everyone is now walking around with gift of alacrity, mage armor, darkvision, nondetection, several tiny servants, unlimited animated dead, aid, warding bond, death ward. Probably the minions are the worst offenders. A necromancer just tripled the size of their army. There are enough useful out-of-combat spells that this essentially just gives spell casters more spell slots. Even just getting to use something like arcane eye, fabricate, or mordenkanens sanctum without a spell slot is pretty powerful.

Mostly, this benefits the classes that are already the strongest, so I'm not sure it's a good idea.

[Oramac]

Knock Rope Trick Goodberry Clairvoyance Arcane Eye Mage Armour, Animate Dead, Heroes Feast


IMO notable spells of first 3 levels that could be problematic.

Distort Value (Bard or Rogue would have a field day with this)
Suggestion (captured enemy does not wanna talk?)
Invisibility (basically for free, what could go wrong?)
Immovable Object (basically for free (25gp) what could go wrong?)
Enhance Ability (yeah, free advantage on whatever you need)
Darkvision (free fix for Humans and Dragonborns)
Alter Self (idk sounds fun)
Speak with Dead
Sending (literally wireless)
Remove Curse (curses are no longer an issue)
Nondetection (renders scrying obsolote)
Magic Circle (can become broken)
Glyph of Warding (not really cheap but with enough gold you can make mindfields or worse)
Fly (basically for free, what could go wrong?)
Dispel Magic (kills enchantments and illusions or any form of lasting magic)
Clairvoyance (you become CIA)
Animate Dead (basically for free, what could go wrong?)

Yea.........all right, I think I'm going to pass on this idea. Sucks b/c it feels thematic for the 'brew, but definitely way too powerful.

Thanks y'all!

[Amnestic]

You could consider letting specific (thematic) spells get cast as rituals when they usually can't be, instead of "any spell can be cast as a ritual x/day". Much easier to keep a hold of power level that way.

[JohnDaBarr]

Yea.........all right, I think I'm going to pass on this idea. Sucks b/c it feels thematic for the 'brew, but definitely way too powerful.

Thanks y'all!

And those are only Wizards spell. Just thinking about having a party with constant Pass without Trace gives me nightmares.

Still, possible alternate approach is to make scribing scrolls a bit easier or less time consuming.

[EggKookoo]

You could consider letting specific (thematic) spells get cast as rituals when they usually can't be, instead of "any spell can be cast as a ritual x/day". Much easier to keep a hold of power level that way.

Right, you could get some mileage out of this with some parameters. Limit it to 4th or lower spells. You can do this X times per long rest (base it on PB or your spellcasting modifier?). And you can only cast a given spell like this once per long rest, so no spamming cures or whatever.

[Khrysaes]

Yea.........all right, I think I'm going to pass on this idea. Sucks b/c it feels thematic for the 'brew, but definitely way too powerful.

Thanks y'all!

Kobold Press Midgard Heroes Handbook has Elven High Mage School for Wizards,

It can't cast non ritual spells as rituals, but it may be worth looking at to give you ideas.

The Korranberg Chronicle - Adventurer's Almanac has Generalist Wizard school,
As their school feature, I think at 6th and 14th level, they can choose ONE non ritual spell of 1st and 3rd level or lower, respectively, to be able to cast it as a ritual.

I am not saying use them as is, but that they are examples of existing homebrew along the lines you want.

That said,
If you are limiting them to uses per whatever, they may as well not be rituals but as abilities that provide access to spells for limited used per day.

I.e. Any of the spellcasting granting feats, or most of the races. I.e. Woodelf magic, Tiefling, or Feytouched.

In which case, the dragonmarked feats from UA may give you some ideas on how to craft options as feats.

[Psyren]

Instead of a blanket rule, you can just give a couple more low-level spells (less problematic ones) the ritual tag if you want more rituals.

Granted, that would require you to put in some work, but that's kind of the rub when it comes to buffing spellcasters :smalltongue:

[Gtdead]

Essentially the question is "what would break if you could cast your highest level slots 5 more times per day". The worst offenders would be more wishes, more true polymorphs, more animate dead, more tiny servants and more healing, pretty much in this order.

Anyone who has access to Wish would become a Wizard, being able to cast clones, simulacrums, bind fiends etc in a timeframe that makes sense. Wizard himself (and Bard) would become even more ridiculous (cast simulacrum, get 12 wishes total).

Aside from that I can't think of anything that would affect the combat in a more direct manner.

[Khrysaes]

Essentially the question is "what would break if you could cast your highest level slots 5 more times per day". The worst offenders would be more wishes, more true polymorphs, more animate dead, more tiny servants and more healing, pretty much in this order.

Anyone who has access to Wish would become a Wizard, being able to cast clones, simulacrums, bind fiends etc in a timeframe that makes sense. Wizard himself (and Bard) would become even more ridiculous (cast simulacrum, get 12 wishes total).

Aside from that I can't think of anything that would affect the combat in a more direct manner.

Genie warlocks more so since they can get wish as a mystic arcanum, specifically not a spell slot, so their simulacrum would recharge it.

[Naanomi]

Even combat spells become utility when they are free... Sieges end under lightning bolt into the walls every ten minutes, walls are just suggestions...

[nickl_2000]

Even combat spells become utility when they are free... Sieges end under lightning bolt into the walls every ten minutes, walls are just suggestions...

Only if you don't have casters on your side who are casting Stone Wall as a ritual every 10 minutes as well. You could also create a force cage jail that keeps people forever very easily.



There are certain combat spells that would also be pretty great. The summon/conjure spells for example, you take 10 minutes off and you completely refresh your summons before the next battle. Necromancer wizards can create and control nearly infinite undead.

Although I think my contribution may be to late....

[Psyren]

Even combat spells become utility when they are free... Sieges end under lightning bolt into the walls every ten minutes, walls are just suggestions...

I'd use Call Lightning here actually since you can just spam it. Have two casters alternate, while one is concentrating for 10 minutes the other is doing the ritual, rinse and repeat, constant lightning. You'll even get the damage boost due to the storm cloud left over from the last one.

[Bjarkmundur]

I haven't read the entire thing but

"You can cast x, y, z and q spells as rituals, as if they had the ritual tag"

Or


"Starting at 3rd level, you can choose two spells from your spell list, of a level which you can cast, that don't have the ritual tag as your Hellish Offerings. You can cast one of your Hellish Offerings as a part of a short rest without spending a spell slot, up to a number of times per day equal to your Charisma Ability Modifier.
You can choose an additional two spells at 10th and 17th level, but the spells must be 3rd level spells or lower."

You could even say that each time the both spells must be of the same school, so in the end it's 6 spells from 3 different schools. That added with the fact that you can only cast a single spell this way per short rest, up to a maximum of 5 times between long rests, makes it really hard to abuse. There are probably edge cases, but it's a start.

[Xihirli]

Even the Summon spells with a long duration become a lot better

[greenstone]

Using this to summon minions breaks combat by dragging turns out.

Imagine a warlock ritually casting animate dead 5 times a day, as well as doing it with the spell slots regained every short rest.

[Oramac]

Although I think my contribution may be to late....

Not too late! I'm still reading these and getting some great ideas. It's just that I work nights, so I just woke up and saw this.

Good stuff, y'all. Thanks!

[Kvess]

One test is to see what happens when a Warlock subclass gets access to a spell, since pact magic has some similarities to turning a spell into a ritual. You can essentially cast the spell as many times per day as there are hours in the day.

My Genie Patron warlock just gained the ability to cast Create Food and Water twice per short rest, so I could, in theory feed around 300 people while travelling if we stop to rest every hour.

A warlock with the Celestial Patron gains access to cure wounds (upcast to the pact magic spellslot) and greater / lesser restoration, so they would be extremely effective at out of combat healing.

[DarknessEternal]

Now that you mention it, casting Wish as a ritual 5 times per day breaks the game. Full stop.


You may want to read the last paragraph of Wish. They already made it a bad idea to cast Wish more than once per day.

[Amnestic]

You may want to read the last paragraph of Wish. They already made it a bad idea to cast Wish more than once per day.

Only if you're using one of the non-duplication aspects of Wish. If you're duplicating spells you could cast it as many times as you like without issue.

[qube]

Only if you're using one of the non-duplication aspects of Wish. If you're duplicating spells you could cast it as many times as you like without issue.true, but rituals don't use spell slots. I'm not sure what added value is of emulating lower level spells.


IMO notable spells of first 3 levels that could be problematic.

Distort Value (Bard or Rogue would have a field day with this)
Suggestion (captured enemy does not wanna talk?)
Invisibility (basically for free, what could go wrong?)
Immovable Object (basically for free (25gp) what could go wrong?)
Enhance Ability (yeah, free advantage on whatever you need)
Darkvision (free fix for Humans and Dragonborns)
Alter Self (idk sounds fun)
Speak with Dead
Sending (literally wireless)
Remove Curse (curses are no longer an issue)
Nondetection (renders scrying obsolote)
Magic Circle (can become broken)
Glyph of Warding (not really cheap but with enough gold you can make mindfields or worse)
Fly (basically for free, what could go wrong?)
Dispel Magic (kills enchantments and illusions or any form of lasting magic)
Clairvoyance (you become CIA)
Animate Dead (basically for free, what could go wrong?)hmm ... true, but a lot of those are concentration spells. If
we don't allow multiple instances of the same spell (like Animate Dead)
limit concentration spells to having only 1 active at a time (the ritual ends with you having to concentrate on, lets say an orb or something).

I certainly think this might be an interesting basis for a character class.

A very broad spell selection system, no spell slotes, and casting time that forces it to cast it outside of combat.

[Oerlaf]

Find Traps turns into a must have spell.

[Gtdead]

true, but rituals don't use spell slots. I'm not sure what added value is of emulating lower level spells.



The value is in accessing every spell list. The effect isn't as strong for the Wizard for example because his spell list includes the usual suspects like Simulacrums, Planar Binding, Clone, Demiplanes, Mansions and whatever else he may want to do during his downtime. Arcana Clerics and Sorcerers don't have the same access for example, but with 6 casts of Wish per day, they effectively become a Wizard when preparation is concerned.

[Mastikator]

The value is in accessing every spell list. The effect isn't as strong for the Wizard for example because his spell list includes the usual suspects like Simulacrums, Planar Binding, Clone, Demiplanes, Mansions and whatever else he may want to do during his downtime. Arcana Clerics and Sorcerers don't have the same access for example, but with 6 casts of Wish per day, they effectively become a Wizard when preparation is concerned.

Sorcerers don't have ritual casting and since only ritual casters are getting this feature they're stuck with their measly 1 wish per day.

[Gtdead]

Sorcerers don't have ritual casting and since only ritual casters are getting this feature they're stuck with their measly 1 wish per day.

Oh yea, I was thinking of this as just extra spells. Way to make a Wish caster seem puny in comparison!

[stoutstien]

Would be an interesting concept for a whole new class so the spells could be hand picked to prevent major issues.

[Kvess]

Would be an interesting concept for a whole new class so the spells could be hand picked to prevent major issues.

I hinted at this in an earlier post, but The Warlock mostly works this way already, especially with subclasses that add utility spells like the Genie or Celestial patron.

If you don’t mind waiting an hour between spells, you can think of Pact Magic casting as essentially longer rituals. And if you pick up the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation, you get access to every other class’ ritual spells.

I don’t think it would take too much effort to refluff the Warlock as a hedge wizard or use their spell list as the basis for a ritual casting specialist class.

[stoutstien]

I hinted at this in an earlier post, but The Warlock mostly works this way already, especially with subclasses that add utility spells like the Genie or Celestial patron.

If you don’t mind waiting an hour between spells, you can think of Pact Magic casting as essentially longer rituals. And if you pick up the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation, you get access to every other class’ ritual spells.

I don’t think it would take too much effort to refluff the Warlock as a hedge wizard or use their spell list as the basis for a ritual casting specialist class.

Which is fine. Nothing wrong with the 1 hour ritual strategy with warlocks but doesn't mean there isn't room for an archivist style class. Kinda what the scribe wizard hints at but fails to follow through.

[Oramac]

So I'm coming back to this after the holiday and finding a lot of interesting discussion.

It seems that what we're finding is, essentially, it would be fine so long as the available spells were tightly controlled. I may have to revisit this for my brew.

Thanks y'all!

[kaoskonfety]

I played the only caster in an all barbarian group, a feat based ritual caster, and we played around with expanding out what could be cast as a ritual.

But honestly? The list given is very carefully chosen with just a couple we couldn't figure out what they didn't have the ritual tag cause lower level versions did (Tongues and Legend Lore stand out).

There were a few edge cases like where we toyed with things like the ritual for animate dead, but it was made quite clear ritual casting it could not be used to *renew control*, so 24 hours later those be wild skeletons unless you have and spend spell slots. Teleportation Circle, but only the "Inscribe permanent Circle" use was another we gave serious thought to allowing.