Questions about Interactions with Vestiges / Vestige Lore

[hippo]

I'm currently writing the Backstory for a Campaign that will include Vestiges at some point. Chances are high that these Vestiges will play a big Role in the Campaign. I've read Tome of Magic, but am still uncertain about some aspects of Vestige Lore, so I'd greatly appreciate if someone would take the time to clarify some things for me. I'd prefere answers using only 3.5 books, but using Dragon Magazine is ok if nothing else is available.

What exactly does a Vestige know about a Binder that is trying to bind it?
Since Amon refuses to answer a Binders call if they have been hosting some specific other Vestiges in the last 24 hours, he needs to have some way of knowing if the Binder has hosted those Vestiges. Is there any Information about what exactly a Vestige knows about its potential Binder? Can those Informations be hidden from the Vestige?

Is there a way to resurect a Vestige?
Since some Vestiges are remains of ordinary mortals (Andras, Aym, Eligor ...) I wonder if there is a way to bring them back to life? Take Eligor as an example: He became is Vestige because he died without any deity claming his soul. He did not die of old age, but I assume his Body has been lost. Could he be resurrected by using True Resurrection (assuming he has died recently) or one or more Miracles/Wishes? I'd assume that this is not the case, since Tome of Magic states that Vestiges "have been divorced from normal reality by some extraordinary means, they can return to it only by binding themselves to other souls", but I'm certain that someone will try to resurrect one at some point, so I want to make sure this isn't possible.

Can a Binder and his bound Vestige communicate?
Tome of Magic explicitly states that some Vestiges communicate with a Binder before they bind, but is somewhat unclear as to what happens after the binding. Am I missing something? I'd assume Binder and Vestige should be able to communicate freely? Bonus Question: If Binder and Vestige can communicate, could multiple Binders that bind to the same Vestige use that for communication, provided the Vestige is willing to help them? I don't see anything forbidding it ...

How many Binders can bind the same Vestige and does doing so affect anything?
Tome of Magic states that "In some cases, the same vestige might make separate but simultaneous pacts with two binders who are in direct conflict with one another", so a Vestige can be bound to more then one Binder at the same time. Is there a limit? Can a Vestige run out of power when binding to too many Binders at once?

[Doctor Despair]

Is there a way to resurect a Vestige?Could he be resurrected by using True Resurrection (assuming he has died recently) or one or more Miracles/Wishes? I'd assume that this is not the case, since Tome of Magic states that Vestiges "have been divorced from normal reality by some extraordinary means, they can return to it only by binding themselves to other souls", but I'm certain that someone will try to resurrect one at some point, so I want to make sure this isn't possible.

Can a Binder and his bound Vestige communicate?
Tome of Magic explicitly states that some Vestiges communicate with a Binder before they bind, but is somewhat unclear as to what happens after the binding.


W.r.t. these questions... Deities can get a power literally called "Alter Reality." A lot of what deities can do varies from sourcebook to sourcebook, but I'd think it would be within their power to resurrect a Vestige if they really wanted to. That could be a plothook for a high-level campaign maybe: to try to force a deity to do this, as mortal magic cannot. Additionally, Vestiges' influence on a Binder would be their way of "communicating," I'd think. Some vestiges are very vocal about what they want, but they don't ask; they just force you to do what they want.

[hippo]

W.r.t. these questions... Deities can get a power literally called "Alter Reality." A lot of what deities can do varies from sourcebook to sourcebook, but I'd think it would be within their power to resurrect a Vestige if they really wanted to. That could be a plothook for a high-level campaign maybe: to try to force a deity to do this, as mortal magic cannot.

Vestiges are described in Tome of Magic as "beyond the reach of the gods" (p. 9), so I assume that a God can't influence a Vestige in any way.


Additionally, Vestiges' influence on a Binder would be their way of "communicating," I'd think. Some vestiges are very vocal about what they want, but they don't ask; they just force you to do what they want.

Tome of Magic states: "you can always just ignore the vestige’s influence and take the penalty that such a choice imposes." (p. 17), so a Vestige can't force the Binder.

I thought about the Influence of a Vestige - and if there is any Vestige whose Influence implies communication - but I haven't found anything that makes communication necessary. The Influences seem to mostly be character alterations, not direct commands that require communication.

[Quentinas]

I thought about the Influence of a Vestige - and if there is any Vestige whose Influence implies communication - but I haven't found anything that makes communication necessary. The Influences seem to mostly be character alterations, not direct commands that require communication.

Maybe Arete (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070119a) has something of comunication as it says that insists which means some way to comunicate I think?

[Tzardok]

Those sound like questions for Afroakuma's Planar and Other Oddities Questions Thread. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?616081-afroakuma-s-Planar-And-Other-Oddities-Questions-Thread-VIII) I will try to answer them as well as I can.

I'm currently writing the Backstory for a Campaign that will include Vestiges at some point. Chances are high that these Vestiges will play a big Role in the Campaign. I've read Tome of Magic, but am still uncertain about some aspects of Vestige Lore, so I'd greatly appreciate if someone would take the time to clarify some things for me. I'd prefere answers using only 3.5 books, but using Dragon Magazine is ok if nothing else is available.

For most of those questions you'll wait forever if you insist on answers from a book instead of extrapolations. Vestiges don't get a lot of lore beyond the ToM.



What exactly does a Vestige know about a Binder that is trying to bind it?
Since Amon refuses to answer a Binders call if they have been hosting some specific other Vestiges in the last 24 hours, he needs to have some way of knowing if the Binder has hosted those Vestiges. Is there any Information about what exactly a Vestige knows about its potential Binder? Can those Informations be hidden from the Vestige?

As vestiges are bound into the soul, I would assume that they have some way of discerning the pactmaker's soul. Bound vestiges likely leave some kind of impression in the soul even after they leave (that would square with the fears witchhunters and clerics have about binders) which allows Amon to see that you were in contact with his enemies. Other traits of the soul that vestiges could conceivably perceive are alignment and wether somebody is a warlock or has an essentia score. Regarding the hiding information thing: as we have no idea what mechanism vestiges use for their perception, we can't have any idea how to fool it. Simply casting Misdirection propably won't be enough.


Is there a way to resurect a Vestige?
Since some Vestiges are remains of ordinary mortals (Andras, Aym, Eligor ...) I wonder if there is a way to bring them back to life? Take Eligor as an example: He became is Vestige because he died without any deity claming his soul. He did not die of old age, but I assume his Body has been lost. Could he be resurrected by using True Resurrection (assuming he has died recently) or one or more Miracles/Wishes? I'd assume that this is not the case, since Tome of Magic states that Vestiges "have been divorced from normal reality by some extraordinary means, they can return to it only by binding themselves to other souls", but I'm certain that someone will try to resurrect one at some point, so I want to make sure this isn't possible.

This question has been in fact asked and answered in the Planar Questions Thread. This specific vein of questions began here. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?527699-afroakuma-s-Planar-And-Other-Oddities-Questions-Thread-VII/page35&highlight=vestiges)
The highlights are:

Depending on the vestige in question, there may or may not theoretically be means to [resurrect it], but they would be quite difficult to undertake, and of uncertain consequence.

You'd of course want to do something distinctive for each one, but underpinning the process might be a need to work with unusual magics - a ritual of renaming to reestablish a cosmic "address" for the entity, possibly some incarnum-adjacent magic or other soul metaphysics to re-lay the foundation for its existence... chronomancy would be technically viable but a horrible solution, as it so often is. The process of re-establishing a vestige should be unknown, undocumented, never tried, specific to the vestige, very dangerous, and highly uncertain.

Here's how one could go and resurrect one:

Let's choose a vestige at random... Ronove. I have no idea why anybody would want to resurrect her, but.. oh well.
She's said to be the inventor of monkhood and Afro said something like that would require epic-level incarnum usage and truenaming, so here's the step by step plan:

Find the hidden plane of K'un-Lun, search there for the Registry of Names of the Celestial Bureaucracy, which holds the truenames of all things under the Bureaucracy's perview, and learn the truename of the monk's arts itself.
Bring into your possession the iron coffin in which Ronove was burried alive, which is preserved in secret by the Order of the First Fist, a secretive monk order whose only monastery is situated on *rolls dice* Kara-Tur.
Enter the Great Mountain, Grumbar's realm on the Elemental Plane of Earth, and steal there a human's worth of True Earth. It must be taken by force, and it mustn't be handled with anything but bare hands.
Bring all three things, a binder who is favored by Ronove, an incarnum using monk and a powerful truenamer to the Bastion of Unborn Souls. Draw Ronove's seal with the True Earth and place the coffin on it. Fill it it to the brim with unborn souls ripped from the crystal trees growing there and close it. The binder needs to call Ronove, but not bind her, while the meldshaper forms the unborn souls into a half-solid fitting form. When all this is done, the truenamer performs an unique variant of the Ritual of Renaming, involving the stolen truename and transfering it to Ronove, while the other two need to hold their respective parts of the ritual on the border between bound and gone / solid shape and no shape. If all three manage to do their part, Ronove is reborn into reality.


Consequences: Ronove is reborn as an unique outsider with the abilities of a "super-monk", maybe even as a heropower or demipower of monks. But the ritual interrupted the normal flow of unborn souls. For the next year, every child on the Prime is stillborn. Most of them rise as atropal scions. Also, Ronove's presence on the Positive Energy Plane harms the flow of Ki; for as long as she is there and the next couple of decades, monks, ninjas and other Ki-users (maybe martial adepts) will find their Ki alternately responding sluggish as earth and as difficult to grasp as the sky; sometimes it is even completely unavailable.



Can a Binder and his bound Vestige communicate?
Tome of Magic explicitly states that some Vestiges communicate with a Binder before they bind, but is somewhat unclear as to what happens after the binding. Am I missing something? I'd assume Binder and Vestige should be able to communicate freely? Bonus Question: If Binder and Vestige can communicate, could multiple Binders that bind to the same Vestige use that for communication, provided the Vestige is willing to help them? I don't see anything forbidding it ...

I don't see anything in the book that allows communication between the vestige and the binder outside the calling ritual.


How many Binders can bind the same Vestige and does doing so affect anything?
Tome of Magic states that "In some cases, the same vestige might make separate but simultaneous pacts with two binders who are in direct conflict with one another", so a Vestige can be bound to more then one Binder at the same time. Is there a limit? Can a Vestige run out of power when binding to too many Binders at once?

The book doesn't mention a limit for the vestige, nor does it have any "Your vestige doesn't answer because it has been bound to too many people" mechanic, so I'll go with no limit.

[Brackenlord]

Vestige
noun
a trace of something that is disappearing or no longer exists.

With that in mind, I see vestiges as way less aware than divine avatars. They exist thanks to some great power, that is no more, and they want to perceive the world again in any form hence pact magic.


What exactly does a Vestige know about a Binder that is trying to bind it?


They probably get the faintest of signals from the binder in question kinda like portfolio sense, if the vestige has strong enough ideals/grudges and the binder can't overpower that (represented by Ignore Special Requirements [feat]) they could refuse to lend their power.


Is there a way to resurect a Vestige?


Only with campaign specific DM fiat.


Can a Binder and his bound Vestige communicate?


The way they're described it looks like trying to communicate with an answering machineduring the pact, like staring at a character selection screen it's actions pre-programmed regardless of wich binder is contacting them. The pact/connection hasn't been stablished yet so their awareness is even smaller than after being bound.

When bound the only form of communication is their influence, is abstract, unlike a deity aware of their worshippers they probably can't really see what's happening aroun the binder.


How many Binders can bind the same Vestige and does doing so affect anything?
Tome of Magic states that "In some cases, the same vestige might make separate but simultaneous pacts with two binders who are in direct conflict with one another", so a Vestige can be bound to more then one Binder at the same time. Is there a limit? Can a Vestige run out of power when binding to too many Binders at once?

Any number of binders can tap into that same well, that passage would allow two or more binders to share the same drawn seal/contact to establish the pact instead of each binder drawing it and calling the same voice mail.

[hippo]

Those sound like questions for Afroakuma's Planar and Other Oddities Questions Thread. I will try to answer them as well as I can.

Uh, nice. Sorry, I did not know of this thread.


For most of those questions you'll wait forever if you insist on answers from a book instead of extrapolations. Vestiges don't get a lot of lore beyond the ToM.

That's no problem: If there is no "official" answer I'll just extrapolate myself. I just want to make sure that I didn't miss anything but, of course, I'm grateful for good Ideas, too.


As vestiges are bound into the soul, I would assume that they have some way of discerning the pactmaker's soul. Bound vestiges likely leave some kind of impression in the soul even after they leave (that would square with the fears witchhunters and clerics have about binders) which allows Amon to see that you were in contact with his enemies. Other traits of the soul that vestiges could conceivably perceive are alignment and wether somebody is a warlock or has an essentia score.

That sounds plausible and consistent with the rest of the Vestige-Lore, so I think I'll take that route.


Regarding the hiding information thing: as we have no idea what mechanism vestiges use for their perception, we can't have any idea how to fool it. Simply casting Misdirection propably won't be enough.

Given the "Impression in the Soul"-thing: Maybe a Lich, whose Souls is in his Phylactery far away? Possibly even on another Plane? But could he even bind a Vestige that way?

I think I'll go with "can't hide your soul from a Vestige".


This question has been in fact asked and answered in the Planar Questions Thread. This specific vein of questions began here.
The highlights are:

Nice thoughts ... although a bit over the top. Maybe I'd go with that idea if someone wants to resurrect a greater God that has become a Vestige, but Vestiges that originally were mere mortals should not cause cosmic disturbances when revived imho. However I'll keep those posts in mind should the Campaign come to the point where someone might want to resurrect a Vestige.


I don't see anything in the book that allows communication between the vestige and the binder outside the calling ritual.

Me neither. Ok, so I'll have to homebrew something. I'd think of some further effect to a bad pact: If the Binder is under the influence of a Vestige, said Vestige can stir his emotions a bit or manipulate his vision or something. Most Vestiges are insane, so that might impact the Binders sanity a bit, but the occasional benevolent Vestige could try to help that way. The important part is that the communication stays ambigous, so this might work ...


The book doesn't mention a limit for the vestige, nor does it have any "Your vestige doesn't answer because it has been bound to too many people" mechanic, so I'll go with no limit.

So it's homebrew time again :smallbiggrin:

[Tzardok]

Uh, nice. Sorry, I did not know of this thread.

Didn't mean to critizise you. :smallredface: Just trying to rise awareness; we sometimes don't get a lot of questioners.


Given the "Impression in the Soul"-thing: Maybe a Lich, whose Souls is in his Phylactery far away? Possibly even on another Plane? But could he even bind a Vestige that way?

The lich's soul must have some way to puppeteer the body, either some kind of connection or a "replacement", propably an animus. Whatever it is, the vestige can propably use it somehow. Betting that planar boundaries hinder vestiges in any way should be a fool's bet. They are outside anyway; what does another plane matter to them?
Afroakuma at least assumes that liches can bind, as his headcanon includes that the Serpent that taught Vecna is a vestige bound by him. That would also answer the "can vestiges communicate with their binders?" I mean, how could the Serpent whisper secrets to Vecna if not at least some vestiges could that?


Nice thoughts ... although a bit over the top. Maybe I'd go with that idea if someone wants to resurrect a greater God that has become a Vestige, but Vestiges that originally were mere mortals should not cause cosmic disturbances when revived imho. However I'll keep those posts in mind should the Campaign come to the point where someone might want to resurrect a Vestige.

I don't think what a vestige was in life should have any effect on the after. Take Amon being much weaker than, for example, Marchosias. The thing is that when you resurrect a vestige, you try to reverse a cosmic "divide by zero" error. You repatriate an unperson, a thing cast out by reality itself. If that doesn't have cataclysmic consequences, well...

Raising a dead god is provably a lot less harmful to reality.

[Khedrac]

Personally I tend to think of Vestiges as less actual creatures or intelligences, and more after-echoes of things that no longer are.

They are more like a photograph or an image that somehow got left behind when the original was erased from the universe - but this image includes some emotions and motivations; so for me they are incapable of true communication because they aren't something really capable of it, but sometimes it can seem as if they are...
This, of course, makes returning one to life a whole load more complex as the vestige isn't the repository of the "soul". It might be fairly easy to return a creature that left a vestige to life if you can find out how, and it might not involve the actual vestige (it might not even stop it from being bind-able).
The flip side is that if you do "restore" the vestige to life it will cause major upheavals in the universe because in effect you have restored the wrong thing...

[Crake]

Personally I tend to think of Vestiges as less actual creatures or intelligences, and more after-echoes of things that no longer are.

this is how I've always envisioned them in my setting, and it's much more in keeping with the name "vestige". In my setting, they're the the remnants of souls that were devoured by a dragon, essentially the "pieces" left over when the dragon didn't quite manage to get the whole thing.

[Tzardok]

this is how I've always envisioned them in my setting, and it's much more in keeping with the name "vestige". In my setting, they're the the remnants of souls that were devoured by a dragon, essentially the "pieces" left over when the dragon didn't quite manage to get the whole thing.

Is that meant as a metaphor? Because if it's taken literally, it raises so many questions about the capabilities of dragons and the population of either vestiges or dragons, if not both.