The Bardic (generic) Expert

[lylsyly]

The Bardic Expert (being a look at creating feats to be used by the generic expert to emulate a bard)



Three Principles:
1. The created feats may only be taken in the feat slots provided by the generic expert’s bonus feats This gives us 7 bonus feats to
play with but I’m thinking that 2 scaling feats are sufficient leaving 5 feats for some of the other class abilities as feats already listed
in UA and the SRD.
2. Only SRD material is to be included in the creation of these feats.
3. The character MUST be weaker than the bard class itself (otherwise why not just play a bard).

So on to the feats:
Bardic Expertise: This feat includes Bardic Music and Bardic Knowledge.


Bardic Knowledge - as listed in the 3.5 SRD (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm#bardicKnowledge). Replace bard level with expert level.
Bardic Music - as listed in the 3.5 SRD (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm#bardicMusic) with the following changes. Replace bard level with expert level.

i. Lose countersong, fascinate, suggestion, song of freedom, mass suggestion, and inspire courage +4.
In essence the only bardic music you get at level 1 is inspire courage +1.
ii. Inspire competence at level 4, requires 7 ranks in perform.
iii. Inspire courage +2 at level 9, requires 12 ranks in perform.
iv. Inspire greatness at level 10, requires 13 ranks in perform.
v. Inspire courage +3 at level 15, requires 18 ranks in perform.
vi. Inspire heroics at level 16, requires 19 ranks in perform.

Bardic Casting: Prerequisites; Expert level 2+, Charisma 11+. Gain casting as a generic spellcaster (arcane
+ charisma based only) equal to your expert level divided by two (rounded down) with access only to the
sorcerer/wizard spell list. This includes the ability to cast spells in light armor without risk of arcane spell
failure but not while holding a shield.

I’m also considering modifying two of the existing class feature feats for bardic experts.
1. Turn Undead: If a character having both the bardic expertise and bardic casting feats takes the turn undead
class feature feat then he also gains access to the cleric spell list and may swap out his spells known as he
wishes. He may not thereafter take the wild empathy class feature feat.
2. Wild Empathy: If a character having both the bardic expertise and bardic casting feats takes the wild
empathy class feature feat then he also gains access to the druid spell list and may swap out his spells
known as he wishes. He may not thereafter take the turn undead class feature feat.

What to do with the rest of those class feature feats???:

The bard is really a fifth wheel sort of class so being versatile is a groovy thing so …

Up your survivability - uncanny dodge, evasion (improved evasion has always been a wash to me), and trap finding.

Be a roguish bard - evasion, uncanny dodge, trapfinding, and sneak attack. Go play flanker for your rogue buddy.

Be a wandering (rangerish) bard - wild empathy and the druid spell list?

Disciple of (insert deity name here) - turn undead and the cleric spell list?

And don’t get me started on the warrior with 11 bonus feats that can take ALL the class feature feats except familiar and use his non
bonus feats for building a pouncer/charger ;-).

How about it Giants? Thoughts?

[Darg]

I don't see any reason you can't have countersong, fascinate, and inspire courage as part of the first level feat. As a second feat available at 3rd level, I would combine inspire competence, suggestion and mass suggestion. Then for the 3rd feat available at 8th combine inspire greatness, song of freedom, and inspire heroics. For the second and 3rd feats give level tiers for when the 2nd and 3rd music options are available equal to when the bard gains access.

This makes it similar to all the other options.

[lylsyly]

Partly because of how we play at our table. Countersong is basically useless and traded out in any decent bard build. We play diplomacy RAW which means I don't need to fascinate you when I can just improve your affection for me (LoL). Partly because of principle #3. Must be weaker than a bard. ;-). I'm going to leave it open for a week or so before I think about making changes based on input. Thanks for your input!

[paladinn]

Very interesting, if not exactly the direction I would go. I don't care for tying the specific Bard feats to specific Expert levels. The beauty of the generic class system is that you can take any feat at anytime, at least hypothetically, other than the feat/greater feat/improved feat progression. This also seems to tie the Bard feats to the Expert class alone. I would open it up:

Anyone can take a combat feat; but only warriors can take the greater/improved version of combat feats. Even a mage can get basic proficiency with a sword, but no more than basic. An expert could get basic 2-weapon fighting.

Anyone can potentially take expert feats, but only experts can take the greater/improved versions. Most warriors or experts won't Want to, as they have other/better options for them; but if they want, they can. A stealthy warrior can take the basic sneak attack, for example.

Only casters can take caster feats. Those feats are worthless to anyone else anyway.

[Darg]

Partly because of principle #3. Must be weaker than a bard. ;-).

You have to give up casting to stay on track and if you do multiclass for casting you are already behind in BAB, casting, skills, or the bard feats. Personally I think it's weak enough and the trade offs make it an interesting choice.

Edit: the bardic casting feat seems too strong and anti-thematic to what generic classes are. The best part about the spellcasting is that you get less class features for some spellcasting. No 3/4 BAB divine caster with 9th level spells and access to heavy armor and shields right off the bat. With the spontaneous nature of the casting your non/partial casters become that much more valuable.

[lylsyly]

@Paladdin - From the SRD "For the purposes of these classes, the following class features can be selected in place of bonus feats (unless noted, each may only be selected once)." You only get the bonus feats to select class features. The musics you are calling feats are features of and included in Bardic Music. If you look at the bard class features you will see that the different musics do indeed require x levels of the perform skill to use. I simply placed them all one level later than a standard bard.

@Darg - The casting really is nerfed as opposed to a generic spell caster. At most you can get 5th level spells and are restricted to the sorc/wiz list instead of all lists. Plus if you did take at level 2 your casting only would advance at every even level. Personally I think that is nerfed enough. I suppose it could be limited to the bard list. but then why not just play a bard. as far as fascinate and suggestion there are spells for that.

[Darg]

@Darg - The casting really is nerfed as opposed to a generic spell caster. At most you can get 5th level spells and are restricted to the sorc/wiz list instead of all lists. Plus if you did take at level 2 your casting only would advance at every even level. Personally I think that is nerfed enough. I suppose it could be limited to the bard list. but then why not just play a bard. as far as fascinate and suggestion there are spells for that.[/FONT][/COLOR]

Generic classes are a variant where there is no bard, no gish type classes. The only way to get spellcasting is to multiclass or be a spellcaster and is how the variant is designed. Including an easy, minimal cost feat to get just that is probably the most valuable no-brainer there is. Spellcasting as a feat needs to be balanced against choosing any other feat. The generic classes variant puts a high cost to spell casting. Tossing that aside you might as well just use the normal base classes instead of the variant. You are also still free to use PRCs with the variant which is where adding spellcasting should be centered. It's also entirely possible to simply play prestige bard instead.

[redking]

Have you seen the 3.5 Dragonlance Master class? It can serve as a Bard without spells.

[paladinn]

Have you seen the 3.5 Dragonlance Master class? It can serve as a Bard without spells.

Where do you find this? I have the 3.5 DL Campaign Setting but not seeing it.

One of my goals would be to have bardic abilities as feats that could be grafted onto any of the 3 generic chassis. A warrior base with bardic feats would make a skald. A caster base with bard feats would approximate the original Celtic-type bard. The "performer" bard would be an expert.

[redking]

Where do you find this? I have the 3.5 DL Campaign Setting but not seeing it.

It's from War of the Lance 3.5.

[lylsyly]

Generic classes are a variant where there is no bard, no gish type classes. The only way to get spellcasting is to multiclass or be a spellcaster and is how the variant is designed. Including an easy, minimal cost feat to get just that is probably the most valuable no-brainer there is. Spellcasting as a feat needs to be balanced against choosing any other feat. The generic classes variant puts a high cost to spell casting. Tossing that aside you might as well just use the normal base classes instead of the variant. You are also still free to use PRCs with the variant which is where adding spellcasting should be centered. It's also entirely possible to simply play prestige bard instead.

When you put it that way I see your point. So drop the Bardic Casting feat all together.

A name change is also in in order: Bardic Inspiration. I see no harm in keeping it as is. Bardic Knowledge is no big thing and requiring ranks in perform is normal, even Inspire Courage +1 specifically calls for 3 ranks in perform although it doesn't state a requirement for the boosts. That way if you should happen to take the feat at later levels you wouldn't get them all if you didn't actually have the ranks in perform. Maybe Inspire Courage SHOULD be a separate feat. Have to ruminate on that one. WIthout spellcasting I would drop back in the musics I took out as well and restore them to the proper perorm ranks requirements. And Drop the language that ties it to the expert class has well.

[paladinn]

When you put it that way I see your point. So drop the Bardic Casting feat all together.

A name change is also in in order: Bardic Inspiration. I see no harm in keeping it as is. Bardic Knowledge is no big thing and requiring ranks in perform is normal, even Inspire Courage +1 specifically calls for 3 ranks in perform although it doesn't state a requirement for the boosts. That way if you should happen to take the feat at later levels you wouldn't get them all if you didn't actually have the ranks in perform. Maybe Inspire Courage SHOULD be a separate feat. Have to ruminate on that one. WIthout spellcasting I would drop back in the musics I took out as well and restore them to the proper perorm ranks requirements. And Drop the language that ties it to the expert class has well.

Except that, hypothetically, any character concept should be able to be built with generic classes and the right feats. I see the classes at the frameworks and feats as what distinguishes the concepts. So if you want a spellcasting bard, start with expert, load up with skills, MC into caster for a few levels, and choose bardic music/knowledge feats. Want a ranger? Start with warrior, choose tracking and favored enemy as feats. If you want a more rogue-ish ranger, choose sneak attack and uncanny dodge. If you prefer a casting ranger, MC to caster for a few druid spells.

The sky's the limit with a little imagination.

[lylsyly]

After ruminating on it I changed it up.

Bardic Feats for Generic Characters

Three Principles:
1. The created feats may only be taken in the feat slots provided by the generic character’s bonus feats.
2. Only SRD material is to be included in the creation of these feats.
3. No spellcasting will be included in these feats.

Three Feats:
1. Bardic Music: as per the SRD. This feat includes all the music types except Inspire Courage. The perform skill prerequisites for each music type must be met before the character can use that music. Replace Bard level with character level. If a character takes this feat after 1st level then the level he takes it at is considered level one for purposes of level calculations.
2. Bardic Knowledge: As per the SRD. Replace Bard level with character level. If a character takes this feat after 1st level then the level he takes it at is considered level one for purposes of level calculations.
3. Inspire Courage. As per the SRD. Prerequisites Bardic Music and at least 3 ranks in perform: This feat may be taken multiple times (up to 4). Each iteration increases your Inspire course bonus by +1. This feat must have at least five levels in between each iteration.

[paladinn]

After ruminating on it I changed it up.

Bardic Feats for Generic Characters

Three Principles:
1. The created feats may only be taken in the feat slots provided by the generic character’s bonus feats.
2. Only SRD material is to be included in the creation of these feats.
3. No spellcasting will be included in these feats.

Three Feats:
1. Bardic Music: as per the SRD. This feat includes all the music types except Inspire Courage. The perform skill prerequisites for each music type must be met before the character can use that music. Replace Bard level with character level. If a character takes this feat after 1st level then the level he takes it at is considered level one for purposes of level calculations.
2. Bardic Knowledge: As per the SRD. Replace Bard level with character level. If a character takes this feat after 1st level then the level he takes it at is considered level one for purposes of level calculations.
3. Inspire Courage. As per the SRD. Prerequisites Bardic Music and at least 3 ranks in perform: This feat may be taken multiple times (up to 4). Each iteration increases your Inspire course bonus by +1. This feat must have at least five levels in between each iteration.



Question: if a character doesn't take any bardic feats till later in his/her career, should s/he still use the entire character level for level calc?

[lylsyly]

Right there in black and white "If a character takes this feat after 1st level then the level he takes it at is considered level one for purposes of level calculations."

[paladinn]

Right there in black and white "If a character takes this feat after 1st level then the level he takes it at is considered level one for purposes of level calculations."

I know that's in your text. I was speaking genericly. Pun not intended.

[Darg]

Having bardic music work based on when you get it instead of on character level, does something all the other class features do not do. If you really want it to be based on investment, make it cost more feats instead just like sneak attack.

[lylsyly]

I suppose I could limit the bardic music feat to the first few and then add an Advanced Bardic music feat for the later ones. Inspire courage already has extra feats involved. If you want to make a feat for each music I think that's going to far. Look for instance Uncanny Dodge including Imporved Uncanny Dodge.

I alos changed the title of bardic knowledge to Lore.

[Darg]

You wouldn't make different feats for each type of music. Instead it would just be a progression like an upside down pyramid. An example would be the sneak attack feats. Each version encompasses more as you improve it.

For bardic music, have it apply to bard 1-4. Then bard 5-10. Then bard 11-20. Just like sneak attack you could stop at 11-18 if you wanted.

[lylsyly]

I can see two feats, not three or four. besides that there is already a limit built in by the perform requirements.