[3.5] Spell-less Assassin (Initiator)

[Thurbane]

If you were to remove spellcasting from the assassin PrC, would giving it the initiator advancement (maneuveres known, readied, stances known, and access to same schools) of an equivalent level Swordsage be a fair trade?

Would it be overpowered, or underpowered, compared to Assassin casting?



Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Reflex Save
Will Save
Special
Maneuvers Known
Maneuvers Readied
Stances Known


1st
0
0
2
0
Sneak attack +1d6, death attack, poison use
6
4
1


2nd
1
0
3
0
+1 save against poison, uncanny dodge
7
4
2


3rd
2
1
3
1
Sneak attack +2d6
8
5
2


4th
3
1
4
1
+2 save against poison
9
5
2


5th
3
1
4
1
Improved uncanny dodge, sneak attack +3d6
10
6
3


6th
4
2
5
2
+3 save against poison
11
6
3


7th
5
2
5
2
Sneak attack +4d6
12
6
3


8th
6
2
6
2
+4 save against poison, hide in plain sight
13
7
3


9th
6
3
6
3
Sneak attack +5d6
14
7
4


10th
7
3
7
3
+5 save against poison
15
8
4



Just considering this as a variant at my table.

On second thoughts, maybe Swordsage is a bit OP, because it gives so many Maneuvers Known - maybe Warblade progression would be a better fit?



Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Reflex Save
Will Save
Special
Maneuvers Known
Maneuvers Readied
Stances Known


1st
0
0
2
0
Sneak attack +1d6, death attack, poison use
3
3
1


2nd
1
0
3
0
+1 save against poison, uncanny dodge
4
3
1


3rd
2
1
3
1
Sneak attack +2d6
5
3
1


4th
3
1
4
1
+2 save against poison
5
4
2


5th
3
1
4
1
Improved uncanny dodge, sneak attack +3d6
6
4
2


6th
4
2
5
2
+3 save against poison
6
4
2


7th
5
2
5
2
Sneak attack +4d6
7
4
2


8th
6
2
6
2
+4 save against poison, hide in plain sight
7
4
2


9th
6
3
6
3
Sneak attack +5d6
8
4
2


10th
7
3
7
3
+5 save against poison
8
5
3



Cheers - T

[Fero]

One issue is that initiator PrCs typically stack with the base initiator class. As such, you could have a lvl 15 char who is a lvl 15 initiator with assasin skills and sneak attack, which seems significantly stronger than a base assasin. Another issue is the natural synergy between ToB and sneak attack. You could balance both by giving the assasin few Maneuvers (see ToB PrCs) limited to only a few disciplines (Shadow Hand and something else).

[Particle_Man]

How married are you to death attack? Because it might be easier to just go full Sword Sage and call yourself an assassin.

[Saintheart]

I'd definitely call martial maneuvers an improvement on Assassin casting. On the other hand, Warblade schools don't have a lot of synergy with the assassin theme. Keep Warblade progression, but trade access to White Raven with access to Shadow Hand. Keeps him away from White Raven Tactics shenanigans, and he's going to need all that concealment and flatfooting equipment in order to make sneak attack work. Without Deathsight he's not likely to use his Death Attack anyway, so that's neither here nor there.

[rel]

As it was said upthread, Warblade isn't really sneaky enough, consider changing it or stick to swordsage.

As far as power level goes. It's probably stronger than baseline assassin, if built with care and skill.

On the other hand, its definitely weaker than a PHB only wizard, cleric or druid built with the same level of skill.
So if you allow the PHB without extensive houserules, your initiator assassin shouldn't upset things too much.

[noce]

I'd rather give it the Shadow Sun Ninja progression, but on Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw.
It seems more balanced to me.

[mabriss lethe]

Initiator PrCs are built around full initiator classes being the primary method of entry. That's reflected by the fact that they gain relatively few maneuvers and stances and lack a recovery mechanic (excluding Master of the Nine). You're already assumed to have the basics already nailed down. That's one of the reasons why just subbing out spells for maneuvers feels a little janky. Just copypasta-ing a base class's maneuver progression puts the PrC in a whole different realm from the printed Initiator PrCs.

So I second cribbing the tables from Shadow Sun Ninja. I'd also change the prereqs to include Assassin's Stance and possibly a diamond mind maneuver, making SH and DM the disciplines it can draw from. I don't think there's much precedence for possessing a specific stance but it's fairly thematic. As for the rest of the class's abilities... Sneak attack can stay, Subbing poison use out for Master of Poisons gained as a bonus feat. Death attack could be modified to require sacrificing a readied Diamond Mind maneuver and making a concentration check or something. of course at this point it's all spitballing to shoehorn Assassin abilities into Initiator style PrC class features.