Is Way of the Ascendant Dragon still a good/decent Monk Subclass?

[werescythe]

So I know that this subclass was unnecessarily nerfed by WotC with the release of FToD, but I thought I would go ahead and ask if this subclass is still a decent/good subclass to play as a monk?

[strangebloke]

The nerf was unneeded.

It's still fine but IMO I would compare it to the kensei. It's mechanically decent (yay!) and allows for somewhat unique playstyles (yay!) and has good thematics (yay!) but WotC had a panic attack when they realized the power gamers could actually do cool things with it (argh) and so they nerfed it (argh) and also made it extremely fiddly and annoying. (double argh)

So its strong enough, but people won't want to play it because its annoying and complicated.

[werescythe]

The nerf was unneeded.

It's still fine but IMO I would compare it to the kensei. It's mechanically decent (yay!) and allows for somewhat unique playstyles (yay!) and has good thematics (yay!) but WotC had a panic attack when they realized the power gamers could actually do cool things with it (argh) and so they nerfed it (argh) and also made it extremely fiddly and annoying. (double argh)

So its strong enough, but people won't want to play it because its annoying and complicated.

So then might it be a good monk subclass to multiclass with?

[strangebloke]

So then might it be a good monk subclass to multiclass with?

Probably? A lot of features scale with proficiency, but tbh I'm not sure here. Monks are not the best for multiclassing at a default, but you could probably do something with war cleric.

[Rfkannen]

So then might it be a good monk subclass to multiclass with?

As a single class my opinion is of its fine, doesn't help the monk as a class and is better than four elmenets and worse than mercy. I would play it if it fits a character concept but there isn't anything that wows me about it. Solidly alright.

As a multiclass, I would say it is one of the worse subclasses for dipping into. Your main breath weapon thing works off your martial arts die, which will be too low for anyone who isn't a full monk. There are better and easier ways to get the limited flight feature from level 3. The elemental damage on unarmed strikes is extremely cool but is also pretty useless. The only real use I see for the dip is some weird eloquence bard build who never wants to fail at persuasion.

[Arkhios]

I find it a bit amusing that people who are content, or even happy with the result stay silent, but those who are disappointed are the most vocal about it, and seem to think their opinion is universally true. (FYI, it's not)

FWIW, I don't have an opinion per se. It's just that I never invest myself too much (if at all) with the "unearthed" versions because they're still not ready for final release, and everything may still happen. That way I won't be overly disappointed over nothing.

Ask yourself, would you complain this much if you hadn't seen the unearthed version? Is it really that bad?

[Mastikator]

If you pick the dragonborn race from the same book then one of the cool things you can do is two breath weapon attacks in the same turn in the same turn as a 5th level Ascendant Dragon monk. At level 5 it would be 2d10 + 2d6 and only 3 times per day. Compared to a sorcerer with 2 fireballs (3 if using sorcery points to renew spell slots) each doing 8d6...

ok wow it sucks

[Thunderous Mojo]

Ascendant Dragon is playable.
Elemental Strikes give the monk a way to bypass Non-Magical B/P/S Resistance/Immunity before reaching 6th level.

Plus burning fists might allow you to make a fire.🔥
Acid Fists might melt metal bars, etc, etc.

A Flying Disengage as a Bonus Action is useful.

[strangebloke]

I find it a bit amusing that people who are content, or even happy with the result stay silent, but those who are disappointed are the most vocal about it, and seem to think their opinion is universally true. (FYI, it's not)
...
Ask yourself, would you complain this much if you hadn't seen the unearthed version? Is it really that bad?

Yes, it's awkward. You get proficiency free uses of the dragons breath, after which it costs so much that it's only worth it if you're dropping tons of ki.

That's my personal opinion, I can't speak for the silent majority who (you presume) love the class.

If you pick the dragonborn race from the same book then one of the cool things you can do is two breath weapon attacks in the same turn in the same turn as a 5th level Ascendant Dragon monk. At level 5 it would be 2d10 + 2d6 and only 3 times per day. Compared to a sorcerer with 2 fireballs (3 if using sorcery points to renew spell slots) each doing 8d6...

ok wow it sucks

I mean, I think we can all agree that a sorcerers two highest spell slots for the whole day represent a greater investment of resources than a racial and subclass feature right?

Dragon monks are better than most monks at dealing with crowds.

It's not really impressive, but imo it works.

[Gurgeh]

One minor but meaningful tweak would be to allow the player the choice of whether or not they're spending ki on the proficiency-or-ki features, instead of forcing them to burn through the long-rest refreshing uses first.

[Arkhios]

That's my personal opinion, I can't speak for the silent majority who (you presume) love the class.

FYI, I said nothing about a majority or minority.

[Kane0]

-Snipped feature analysis-

Again not great, not terrible. Thoroughly mediocre. Passably average. Painfully in-line. That about sums up the subclass as a whole really, it's a passive-aggressive fine I guess. It doesn't make you say "Wow that's awesome!" Nor does it make you say "Wow that's trash!" If you weren't sold on the title alone, there's nothing really enticing upon cracking it open to make you reconsider.

But at least it isn't broken.

I stand by what I said last time.

[Schwann145]

I have no idea what the pre-nerf version looks like, but when I read the release version I was wildly disappointed. Add that to my general disappointment in the core Monk class, and I'd say it's a loser.
Unfortunate. :(

[Contrast]

Ask yourself, would you complain this much if you hadn't seen the unearthed version? Is it really that bad?

I think the objection in this case is that its solidly in line with other monk subclasses and many people (myself included) feel that monk needs a power boost to be more competetive so I want to see stronger monk subclasses.

That said, I just created one in a new campaign because the flavour is cool and at the end of the day, they're fine mechanically. *shrugs*


FYI, I said nothing about a majority or minority.

In fairness if you say 'the silent people are happy' people are going to assume you mean a silent majority because most people who play D&D do not post on forums about D&D. Literally any topic you care to choose to discuss about D&D or really even any topic outside of D&D, the silent people are the vast majority.

[Arkhios]

In fairness if you say 'the silent people are happy' people are going to assume you mean a silent majority because most people who play D&D do not post on forums about D&D. Literally any topic you care to choose to discuss about D&D or really even any topic outside of D&D, the silent people are the vast majority.

I respectfully disagree that simply mentioning the silent people unequivocally would imply they fall to either majority or minority. The only implication is that they exist.

[stoutstien]

So I know that this subclass was unnecessarily nerfed by WotC with the release of FToD, but I thought I would go ahead and ask if this subclass is still a decent/good subclass to play as a monk?

Solid score of 6.5/10. Could be better without any issue but it could be a lot worse. Scales well and, like mercy, gets a boost at the exact spot monks start to stagnant at 11.

Most of the issues is due to slightly unintuitive wording but by the numbers it's fine.

[Foolwise]

There are better and easier ways to get the limited flight feature from level 3.

WoAD's glorified jump feature aka the limited flight doesn't come online until lv 6. Nobody is dipping WoAD for 6 levels.

And I don't see anyone dipping WoAD for even 3 levels unless they don't care about having a suboptimal build. Better to play dragonborn or play/dip into a class that gets the Dragon Breath spell. Elemental fists won't hit very hard, other subclasses give better benefits like Drunken Master's free disengage (no hit req) or Open Hand's options when you do hit (prone, push, disengage).

[Naanomi]

I want to play a Yuan-Ti Dragon Ascendant focused on green dragon poison Master, seems like a classic kung-fu movie villain... Long beard, poisoned fingernails, unemotional... Powerful? Nah... But neat conceptually

[Thunderous Mojo]

I respectfully disagree that simply mentioning the silent people unequivocally would imply they fall to either majority or minority. The only implication is that they exist.

While this is true, a former US President popularized the term "The Silent Majority"...so the terms might not be so 'Loaded with Implications' in Finland as the terms are in the USA.

[Arkhios]

While this is true, a former US President popularized the term "The Silent Majority"...so the terms might not be so 'Loaded with Implications' in Finland as the terms are in the USA.

While we speak english in here, and the forum servers are likewise located in the USA, this forum is accessible worldwide, so it is hardly fair to expect a non-US resident to be intuitively aware of such things.

I know it's a "thing", but as a dear friend of mine wisely said it: Words actually mean things.

Therefore, if I left out the word "majority" (which I did, on purpose), there was a reason for it: not to provoke any further implications than what the words I chose to use mean all by themselves.

[strangebloke]

While we speak english in here, and the forum servers are likewise located in the USA, this forum is accessible worldwide, so it is hardly fair to expect a non-US resident to be intuitively aware of such things.

I mean, even without a "the silent majority" being a common english expression, your post came across as incredibly rude and condescending to me. If that wasn't your intent, I apologize.

[Arkhios]

I mean, even without a "the silent majority" being a common english expression, your post came across as incredibly rude and condescending to me. If that wasn't your intent, I apologize.

No, it wasn't, my intent for it was to be a generic and neutral observation from my point of view.

Apology accepted, likewise I apologize for not being clearer with my intentions.

[Psyren]

I find it a bit amusing that people who are content, or even happy with the result stay silent, but those who are disappointed are the most vocal about it, and seem to think their opinion is universally true. (FYI, it's not)

"Upset people are more vocal" is literally everything on the internet, and outside it for that matter :smalltongue:

---

Regarding this monk subclass, there are things I like and things I dislike.



Draconic Disciple

The Persuade/Intimidate reroll is unlikely to do much. Monks are proficient in neither and your Cha is likely to be in the toilet anyway. (And why is it a reaction when you're most likely making these checks out of combat? Weird...)
Draconic Strike is nice for that no-man's land between 3rd-level and KES at 6th level but from 6 onward it becomes pretty situational. Vulnerability and Regen are potential use cases for this, but they tend to be rare.
Tongue of Dragons, meh.


Breath of the Dragon - I just don't understand why the damage on this is so low. At least let us add Wis mod to it or something. When you get this it does 2d4 (and that's assuming they fail their save), which actually puts it below the attack it's replacing unless you can reliably hit 3+ creatures. 2 ki is criminal at this level but at least the first couple are free. With that said, I like that you can choose the energy type when you use this, and I'm a big fan of "you get X for free, and only have to spend ki when the free uses run out," other monk subclasses should use this model. My hope is that the 5.5 monk will follow this design, especially 4EM and Shadow.
Wings Unfurled - They call this flight but in reality it's more of a big jump. This also has a hidden ki and action cost since you need to activate SotW to use it. It has its uses but I would have preferred if they simply got flight for a minute like some other subclasses do at this level e.g. Genielock.
Aspect of the Wyrm - The really disappointing thing about this one is the range, and that the offensive effect eats your bonus action and only affects one creature at a time. This could have been pretty good, but with those limitations it drops to just okay in my view. Moreover, you only get one free one per day as opposed to the previous features where you at least get your proficiency bonus before you have to start forking over ki, and 3 ki is a lot for a feature this limited.
Ascendant Aspect

​Augment Breath isn't too shabby as its 4d10 replaces an attack instead of requiring your action, and you have plenty of free uses and ki by this point. The area is also pretty large so your chances of hitting more than one enemy are pretty good. Is it on par with what casters are doing at this level, definitely not, but as far as martials go it's okay.
Blindsight is nice but if you're playing with feats, the other martials likely had this for 6 levels now if not more.
Explosive Fury - this is based on your aura so again, the range here is way too limited, and 3d10 with a save to negate at this level is nothing to write home about.

[Amdy_vill]

So I know that this subclass was unnecessarily nerfed by WotC with the release of FToD, but I thought I would go ahead and ask if this subclass is still a decent/good subclass to play as a monk?

I'd say it is below average but playable. it's weaker than any option should be but not unplayable.

[Azuresun]

I find it a bit amusing that people who are content, or even happy with the result stay silent, but those who are disappointed are the most vocal about it, and seem to think their opinion is universally true. (FYI, it's not)

Generally, very few people post to say "I quite like this." It's why most online "fan" groups tend to be negative and hyper-critical, giving each of them a group of likeminded people who give them the impression that attitude is universal.


FWIW, I don't have an opinion per se. It's just that I never invest myself too much (if at all) with the "unearthed" versions because they're still not ready for final release, and everything may still happen. That way I won't be overly disappointed over nothing.

Ask yourself, would you complain this much if you hadn't seen the unearthed version? Is it really that bad?

You should have seen the kerfluffle when the Wildfire druid lost Fireball!

[Thunderous Mojo]

Wings Unfurled - They call this flight but in reality it's more of a big jump. This also has a hidden ki and action cost since you need to activate SotW to use it. It has its uses but I would have preferred if they simply got flight for a minute like some other subclasses do at this level e.g. Genielock.

The power is similar in effect to a Psi Warrior's: Psi-Powered Leap, except the Dragon Monk can with a single Bonus Action take a Flying Disengage....which when combined with Stunning Strike..can equal a nice Cruise Missile Mode.

A Dragon Monk can fly to a creature in flight and grapple, to hold on...and "if the Monk falls, then he falls". 😉 /Ivan Drago Mode engaged/

[Dork_Forge]

It's flavourful and in terms of raw power squarely average yet interesting, which is a pretty perfect place for a new subclass to end up IMO. This isn't egregious power creep, you get a ton of neat new things that won't suck the Ki right out of you and you look cool doing it.

I played a Dragonborn Ascendant Dragon Monk in a 9th level one-shot recently and not only was it really fun, but it was very effective including:




The power is similar in effect to a Psi Warrior's: Psi-Powered Leap, except the Dragon Monk can with a single Bonus Action take a Flying Disengage....which when combined with Stunning Strike..can equal a nice Cruise Missile Mode.

A Dragon Monk can fly to a creature in flight and grapple, to hold on...and "if the Monk falls, then he falls". 😉 /Ivan Drago Mode engaged/

I did the reverse of this, grappling someone and taking them up first, it's very very fun.

Worth noting here that the Monk can just Slow Fall to not take any fall damage themselves.



Regarding this monk subclass, there are things I like and things I dislike.


Draconic Disciple

(1) The Persuade/Intimidate reroll is unlikely to do much. Monks are proficient in neither and your Cha is likely to be in the toilet anyway. (And why is it a reaction when you're most likely making these checks out of combat? Weird...)
Draconic Strike is nice for that no-man's land between 3rd-level and KES at 6th level but from 6 onward it becomes pretty situational. Vulnerability and Regen are potential use cases for this, but they tend to be rare.
Tongue of Dragons, meh.


(2) Breath of the Dragon - I just don't understand why the damage on this is so low. At least let us add Wis mod to it or something. When you get this it does 2d4 (and that's assuming they fail their save), which actually puts it below the attack it's replacing unless you can reliably hit 3+ creatures. 2 ki is criminal at this level but at least the first couple are free. With that said, I like that you can choose the energy type when you use this, and I'm a big fan of "you get X for free, and only have to spend ki when the free uses run out," other monk subclasses should use this model. My hope is that the 5.5 monk will follow this design, especially 4EM and Shadow.
(3) Wings Unfurled - They call this flight but in reality it's more of a big jump. This also has a hidden ki and action cost since you need to activate SotW to use it. It has its uses but I would have preferred if they simply got flight for a minute like some other subclasses do at this level e.g. Genielock.
Aspect of the Wyrm - The really disappointing thing about this one is the range, and that the offensive effect eats your bonus action and only affects one creature at a time. This could have been pretty good, but with those limitations it drops to just okay in my view. Moreover, you only get one free one per day as opposed to the previous features where you at least get your proficiency bonus before you have to start forking over ki, and 3 ki is a lot for a feature this limited.
Ascendant Aspect

​Augment Breath isn't too shabby as its 4d10 replaces an attack instead of requiring your action, and you have plenty of free uses and ki by this point. The area is also pretty large so your chances of hitting more than one enemy are pretty good. Is it on par with what casters are doing at this level, definitely not, but as far as martials go it's okay.
(4) Blindsight is nice but if you're playing with feats, the other martials likely had this for 6 levels now if not more.
Explosive Fury - this is based on your aura so again, the range here is way too limited, and 3d10 with a save to negate at this level is nothing to write home about.



1) Everyone gets a background that gives them two skill proficiencies and the Monk can easily leave it as a 10 if not 12 for Cha, even if the check goes off the die there's no reason this wouldn't be of value.

2) It ends up feeling pretty weak for two levels, but it's relative growth is rapid. If you add Wis to it then it becomes much more of a 'is this too good' thing at 5th level when it's d6s and only replacing a single attack. and for what you're likely fighting at 3rd and 4th level, if you want to AOE it's probably going to do meaningful damage.

3) The Genie gets a much slower speed, whilst it'd have been nice to allow more than just prof uses, getting bursts of flight like that is not only fun, it's useful, the Psi Warrior version is very similar and still very potent as a movement option.

And to be honest, the Genielock's balancing is well within creep territory, it's a standout subclass amongst the whole list of Warlock options.

4) Assumptions like this shouldn't really be used when evaluating abilities. There's no reason to assume that any other martial took Fighting Initiate, nevermind assume that they specifically took the Blindfighting style out of a list of very attractive options.

There's too many stats and feats that compete with this, never mind options competing inside the feat itself, for this to be any kind of benchmark.

And if you use that as a benchmark, doesn't it also become an ASI of value as only part of the overall feature? Just seems like a good thing...

[Psyren]

1) Everyone gets a background that gives them two skill proficiencies and the Monk can easily leave it as a 10 if not 12 for Cha, even if the check goes off the die there's no reason this wouldn't be of value.

2) It ends up feeling pretty weak for two levels, but it's relative growth is rapid. If you add Wis to it then it becomes much more of a 'is this too good' thing at 5th level when it's d6s and only replacing a single attack. and for what you're likely fighting at 3rd and 4th level, if you want to AOE it's probably going to do meaningful damage.

3) The Genie gets a much slower speed, whilst it'd have been nice to allow more than just prof uses, getting bursts of flight like that is not only fun, it's useful, the Psi Warrior version is very similar and still very potent as a movement option.

And to be honest, the Genielock's balancing is well within creep territory, it's a standout subclass amongst the whole list of Warlock options.

4) Assumptions like this shouldn't really be used when evaluating abilities. There's no reason to assume that any other martial took Fighting Initiate, nevermind assume that they specifically took the Blindfighting style out of a list of very attractive options.

There's too many stats and feats that compete with this, never mind options competing inside the feat itself, for this to be any kind of benchmark.

And if you use that as a benchmark, doesn't it also become an ASI of value as only part of the overall feature? Just seems like a good thing...

1) As monk gets neither skill you'd need a background that give both persuasion and deception, which I don't think exists. Even if it did I'm guessing it would be an odd/awkward one for a monk to justify in most cases.

2) How is adding a stat mod to the damage "too good?" Regular attacks already do that.

3) Psi Warrior gets twice the speed and honestly, no, I don't think some flight at 6 is too good.

4) By 17 most martials have plenty of opportunity to do that, so I stand by what I said. Sure in a featless game that isn't an option, but every monk does better in those. They strike me more as pulling other martials down closer to the monk's level than any kind of elevation.

[ProsecutorGodot]

1) As monk gets neither skill you'd need a background that give both persuasion and deception, which I don't think exists. Even if it did I'm guessing it would be an odd/awkward one for a monk to justify in most cases.

2) How is adding a stat mod to the damage "too good?" Regular attacks already do that.

3) Psi Warrior gets twice the speed and honestly, no, I don't think some flight at 6 is too good.

4) By 17 most martials have plenty of opportunity to do that, so I stand by what I said. Sure in a featless game that isn't an option, but every monk does better in those. They strike me more as pulling other martials down closer to the monk's level than any kind of elevation.

1)I believe you were talking about Persuasion and Intimidation, but your point stands that no background by default comes with both - Why do you need both to consider the feature worthwhile? Pick one and approach your social encounters with your strengths.

Don't forget however that can choose a background that has an overlapping proficiency, you're allowed to replace them. With that in mind, there are many suitable backgrounds. Any background that gives you 2 of Acrobatics, Athletics, History, Insight, Religion and Stealth or comes with 1 of those skills as well as Intimidation or Persuasion. If my count is correct that's at least 16 background options.

2)Regular attacks are not AoE, for the record, so comparing them directly isn't a very persuasive argument. With this instance being AoE it's much more comparable to something like Elemental Affinity for Draconic Sorcerer's. They only get it to a single damage roll of their spells and it's not a feature that's considered outright "weak" so I agree with the assessment that "just add Wisdom Modifier" is not automatically an easy choice.

3)You're incorrect about Psi Warrior being "twice the speed", don't forget that the prerequisite is that you SoTW. You're dashing and have a +15 movespeed bonus at this level, so it's absolutel minimum 80ft flight, potentially much more. It's no fly spell but it will usually be enough to subvert any reason you would need to fly outside of combat. 6th level is also a "ribbon" level for Monk subclasses, so comparing it between them it's fairly useful.

4)I definitely agree with Dork-Forge on this one - as fantastic as the Blind Fighting Style is I've struggled to actually pick it up for any of my characters because as a feat it's a little unimpressive, it's not fair to devalue this subclass feature because of a feat that someone may or may not have taken. It's nice to have but I can't think of an instance where it's more than a neat bonus.

[Psyren]

1)I believe you were talking about Persuasion and Intimidation, but your point stands that no background comes with both - Why do you need both to consider the feature worthwhile? Pick one and approach your social encounters with your strengths.

Oh, but technically you can choose a background that has an overlapping proficiency, you're allowed to replace them. With that in mind, there are many suitable backgrounds.

2)Regular attacks are not AoE, for the record, so comparing them directly isn't a very persuasive argument. With this instance being AoE it's much more comparable to something like Elemental Affinity for Draconic Sorcerer's. They only get it to a single damage roll of their spells and it's not a feature that's considered outright "weak" so I agree with the assessment that "just add Wisdom Modifier" is not automatically an easy choice.

3)You're incorrect about Psi Warrior being "twice the speed", don't forget that the prerequisite is that you SoTW. You're dashing and have a +15 movespeed bonus at this level, so it's absolutel minimum 80ft flight, potentially much more. It's no fly spell but it will usually be enough to subvert any reason you would need to fly outside of combat. 6th level is also a "ribbon" level for Monk subclasses, so comparing it between them it's fairly useful.

4)I definitely agree with Dork-Forge on this one - as fantastic as the Blind Fighting Style is I've struggled to actually pick it up for any of my characters because as a feat it's a little unimpressive, it's not fair to devalue this subclass feature because of a feat that someone may or may not have taken. It's nice to have but I can't think of an instance where it's more than a neat bonus.

1) Point, but again - if your party has the monk as the face something has likely gone quite wrong somewhere. I'm not saying it's a useless feature, just odd.

2) AoE spells do a hell of a lot more base damage than 2d4 generally, and scale much faster than martial arts die do. Even burning hands starts at 3d6, and that's at level 1! I don't see what's controversial about 2d4+Wis.

3) I didn't say it wasn't useful out of combat.

4) I'm devaluing it because it's a 17th level feature that just isn't all that impressive. The fact that other martials can get the effect much earlier than they do is just a bonus.

[Foolwise]

1) As monk gets neither skill you'd need a background that give both persuasion and deception, which I don't think exists. Even if it did I'm guessing it would be an odd/awkward one for a monk to justify in most cases.

Urban Bounty Hunter allows you to pick two from Deception, Insight, Persuasion, and Stealth.

PHB allows players to swap skills at creation if their background doubles up a skill from their class. Doing this opens up another 20+ backgrounds (incl variants).

Nevermind the fact the PHB says at the start of the chapter on backgrounds that they are fully customizable. Players can take any two skills they want with their background if the recommended ones do not fit their build.

edit- looks like I got shadow monk'd while checking how many backgrounds opened up

[ProsecutorGodot]

1) Point, but again - if your party has the monk as the face something has likely gone quite wrong somewhere. I'm not saying it's a useless feature, just odd.

2) AoE spells do a hell of a lot more base damage than 2d4 generally, and scale much faster than martial arts die do. Even burning hands starts at 3d6, and that's at level 1! I don't see what's controversial about 2d4+Wis.

3) I didn't say it wasn't useful out of combat.

4) I'm devaluing it because it's a 17th level feature that just isn't all that impressive. The fact that other martials can get the effect much earlier than they do is just a bonus.

1)It's an option for a Monk to contribute socially, which is fantastic to have because they're otherwise given little reason to even consider being sociable thanks to their MAD ability score requirements. It's good for build diversity and the effect can be substantial if they lean into it given the opportunity.

2)AoE spells are also typically less frequent in occurrence and made from less durable characters. I'm not saying that adding a Wisdom modifier will guarantee that it's busted, just that the mentality that it can't have an impact is something I don't agree with. Mostly I'm hesitant to add it because, in my opinion, the damage isn't going to be lackluster in scenarios where you're planning on using it.

3)All I'm saying is that as far as design goes you should be comparing it to the power level of other 6th level monk abilities. It even leans on the more useful side of those so I'd say it's a "good" feature.

4)Good thing it's not the only thing they get at 17th level. You're comparing it to an ASI version of a fighting style, that makes it look pretty appealing as the extra third bullet point attached to my cool big dragon breath and nova. You can get a pretty big damage AoE by combining your various effects (which at this level isn't all that costly) for 7d10 save for half where the aoe overlap.

The first time you do this it only costs a single ki point, then 4 for each use after the first until you've done it 6 times. That's a lot of uses, you'll probably be doing it pretty often.

[Psyren]

1)It's an option for a Monk to contribute socially, which is fantastic to have because they're otherwise given little reason to even consider being sociable thanks to their MAD ability score requirements. It's good for build diversity and the effect can be substantial if they lean into it given the opportunity.

2)AoE spells are also typically less frequent in occurrence and made from less durable characters. I'm not saying that adding a Wisdom modifier will guarantee that it's busted, just that the mentality that it can't have an impact is something I don't agree with.

3)All I'm saying is that as far as design goes you should be comparing it to the power level of other 6th level monk abilities. It even leans on the more useful side of those so I'd say it's a "good" feature.

4)Good thing it's not the only thing they get at 17th level. You're comparing it to an ASI version of a fighting style, that makes it look pretty appealing as the extra third bullet point attached to my cool big dragon breath and nova. You can get a pretty big damage AoE by combining your various effects (which at this level isn't all that costly) for 7d10 save for half where the aoe overlap.

The first time you do this it only costs a single ki point, then 4 for each use after the first until you've done it 6 times. That's a lot of uses, you'll probably be doing it pretty often.

I didn't say "can't have an impact" either.

For Draconic Disciple, my point is you can have both (a reason to be sociable, and a mechanically strong feature.) Compare Draconic Disciple to something like Otherworldly Glamour or even Elegant Courtier, there's no reason monk can't get something like that. But I get the feeling that some monk fans would fight tooth and nail against them getting subclass features as strong as even other martials get, and I just don't understand why.

[stoutstien]

I didn't say "can't have an impact" either.

For Draconic Disciple, my point is you can have both (a reason to be sociable, and a mechanically strong feature.) Compare Draconic Disciple to something like Otherworldly Glamour or even Elegant Courtier, there's no reason monk can't get something like that. But I get the feeling that some monk fans would fight tooth and nail against them getting subclass features as strong as even other martials get, and I just don't understand why.

Mostly because monks are truly unique in play style/impact so most of the efforts ppl make to 'balance' them end up just turning them into a lame tribute to fighters.

[ZRN]

I think the objection in this case is that its solidly in line with other monk subclasses and many people (myself included) feel that monk needs a power boost to be more competetive so I want to see stronger monk subclasses.


Yeah, but this is always risky, because if you buff the class through subclasses you end up with fewer "non-trap" options. Sorcerers are the obvious example: post-Tasha it feels really mechanically suboptimal to make, say, a shadow sorcerer or a storm sorcerer. Better to rebalance the core class if there are real balance issues.