Doctor Despair
2021-11-25, 01:34 AM
Hello, friends; after some brewing (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?639142-Seeking-Opinions-on-a-Thief-Build), I've got a new build to showcase: the Phantom Menace.
An old optimization trick I've used in the past (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24896551&postcount=1) is take an animal or humanoid, throw on the Telthor template (Unapproachable East) for LA+2. Then, add the Dragonborn of Bahamut (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1) (LA0) template to strip away the special qualities of the Telthor template. That leaves you with the incorporeal subtype and all the benefits that entails.
As an incorporeal creature, you are perfectly silent and can enter into corporeal objects (such as the walls or floor). This blocks line of sight and line of effect to most enemies, and so renders you undetectable to 90% of detection modes in 3.5. Most enemies will also lack the means to attack you or meaningfully interact with you. In turn, enemies have total concealment from you, limiting the ways you can interact with them; additionally, you are precluded from interacting with corporeal objects and creatures, which complicates gameplay. I wanted to capitalize on some of the strengths of the incorporeal subtype and minimize the drawbacks to develop a unique niche for gameplay.
In order to overcome some of the limitations of the incorporeal subtype, one helpful feat is Ghostly Grasp (Libris Mortis) which reads:
You can handle corporeal objects even while incorporeal.
Prerequisite: Cha 15, incorporeal subtype.
Benefit: You can wear, wield, and otherwise use corporeal items as though you were not incorporeal.
Special: Without this feat, an incorporeal creature can only wear or wield items that have the ghost touch special ability.
With the addition of the feat, the incorporeal creature can grasp corporeal items. Once they do so, the items become incorporeal, as do all items held or carried by incorporeal creatures. This allows the character to meaningfully interact with the world. It also, to my eye, lends itself immediately to a thief-style character; the character can glide past mundane defenses, load up on treasure (that becomes incorporeal with it), then float away. At low levels, the incorporeal creature can use bows to fight (as the arrows or bolts become corporeal once fired); at marginally higher levels, the incorporeal creature can use serren weapons or ghost touch weapons to engage in combat should they choose to.
However, for our purposes, we are less concerned with weapons and more concerned with other items. The City of Stormreach has another interesting feat: Master Pickpocket.
In Stormreach, there are thieves and there are masters of the craft. You fall into the latter category. You can steal anything from anyone at any time.
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Sleight of Hand 8 ranks.
Benefit: Your mastery of Sleight of Hand allows you to steal an object from an adjacent opponent in combat as a standard action without provoking attacks of opportunity. You can take anything the character has on his or her person provided it is not held in hand. If you are in a grapple, you gain a +4 bonus on the attempt. In addition, when you make a Sleight of Hand check as a free action, you take a –10 penalty rather than a –20 penalty on the attempt.
In addition to removing the attack of opportunity, it also allows us to steal any item a character possesses that isn't currently being held, and it allows us to do so as a free action for an additional +10 to the DC. Since we have Ghostly Grasp, we can interact with other creatures' corporeal gear. Incorporeal creatures can reach out of a solid object to affect creatures in adjacent squares despite initially lacking LoE. Once we use Sleight of Hand to steal an item from an adjacent creature, it should become incorporeal, and we should be able to use Sleight of Hand to free-action hide it away on our person (in our clothes, belt, boots, open satchel, etc), then move to steal an additional item, and so on. This ultimately results in a character walking along, minding their own business, before most or all of their gear vanishes from their person. This can be used in combat, too, to aid our allies. Spellcaster component pouches and focuses are certainly fair game.
Another issue an incorporeal creature camping in the floor or walls is sure to run into is: it's very dark in there. It will quickly become difficult to keep track of what is going on outside your nest. One of the few detection modes that ignores line of effect is the listen skill; it allows you to pinpoint enemies' locations with a high enough check. One feat that assists greatly with this: the PHBII's Keen-Eared Scout.
Your sharp sense of hearing allows you to determine much more about your surroundings.
Prerequisite: Alertness (PH) (or) , Skill Focus (PH) (Listen) , Listen 6 ranks,
Benefit:When you make a Listen check, you might learn more than normal about a source of noise.
If you beat the Listen DC by 5 or more, you determine the size, speed, and direction of the source of noise.
If you beat the DC by 10 or more, you determine the precise, current position of the creature or object that caused the sound.
If you beat the DC by 15 or more, you determine the type of armor the creature wears and what it carries, if anything.
If you beat the DC by 20 or more, you learn the creature's type and subtypes.
The information you learn is cumulative. For example, if you got a Listen check result of 35 against a DC of 23, you gain the information for beating the check by 10 and by 5. These benefits apply to both standard and opposed Listen checks.
Also, you gain a +5 bonus on Listen checks to pinpoint invisible creatures.
This effectively lowers the DC to pinpoint an enemy by 15. It also opens up new modes for a successful check, most notably the ability to know everything a creature is wearing and carrying. When I plan builds, as much as I can I like to use every part of the animal (so to speak), and this should allow us to pick our marks instead of just randomly stealing everything someone has.
The combination of incorporeality and these three feats obviously creates an effective thief, but what can an incorporeal creature do when they are not in combat? Bardic music can bypass line of effect, but we've already done that. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24896551&postcount=1) We can make melee attacks into the adjoining square (and, as our enemy doesn't have line of effect to us for the first strike, we can use Iaijutsu Focus once per round (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25276468&postcount=1)). We can use Flyby Attack to emerge from safety, make an attack, and descend again (while avoiding all the prerequisites for Spring Attack). However, in this case, I thought it would be synergistic to lean into a different direction: traps!
The Trapsmith can (surprisingly enough) set up a variety of traps. Setting up a trap is a full-round action that doesn't trigger attacks of opportunity, so our incorporeal thief should be able to reach up into and around opponents' squares to litter the field with tripwires, giving our character a reasonable effective means to attack and hinder foes. Best of all: we can do all of this without leaving the ground and opening us up to our enemies. In addition to allowing us more in-combat options, specializing in traps also enables us with regard to disabling traps, allowing us to effectively scout ahead. Trapsmith also gains a number of useful spells much earlier than other classes.
And so, without any further ado, here is the character in question:
Dragonborn
Telthor
Human
Stat
Array
After Racial/ Template Modifiers
4th
8th
12th
16th
20th
Final
Str
8
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Dex
17
15
-
-
-
-
+1
16
Con
8
10
-
-
-
-
-
10
Int
16
16
+1
+1
+1
+1
-
20
Wis
9
9
-
-
-
-
-
9
Cha
15
15
-
-
-
-
-
15
HD
Class
Feats
Features
Notes
1
Factotum
Skill Focus: SoH, Ghostly Grasp
Inspiration, cunning insight, cunning knowledge, trapfinding
With a 15 in dex and a masterwork tool, we can have an automatic 21 on SoH checks if we take 10. This isn't useful in combat, as it draws AoOs, but it is enough to steal items one at a time. Being incorporeal lets us sense creatures when they're in the next square over, so in settlements, we can become a thief from level 1. Cunning Knowledge lets us pump our skills for an especially tricky SoH target if we fail to steal something, or to a disable device check on a particularly difficult trap we find with Trapfinding. We essentially function as a scout at this level. For combat, apart from stealing, we can use a bow or crossbow to some effect, although that requires us to leave the underground. The arrows we use become corporeal when shot, letting us contribute in at least some capacity.
2
Human Paragon
-
Adaptive learning
At this level, we can technically afford a serren elvencraft bow which, while it can be used as a bow, can also be used as a beating stick with no penalty, allowing us to physically attack our foes to contribute to combat. Now, if we desire, we can begin camping out underground full-time while still earning experience from combat. We don't have the most effective mode to find enemies at this level, but we can still sense creatures' presence above us if we are underground.
3
Human Paragon
Skill Focus: Listen, Keen-Eared Scout
-
Now we can hear the gear and items creatures carry, and pinpoint their location. Our listen check is fairly high; 6 ranks, -1 mod, +2 racial, +2 in an object, +2 masterwork tool, +3 SF, and taking 10 gives us an automatic 24. It's an effective DC of move silently + 5 to pinpoint their location, or move silently +15 to identify their gear, and we can retry with a move action, so we can pretty consistently pinpoint creatures, and retry until we identify their gear. Technically, over about 1 minute, we can take 20, so we'd get that effective 34.
4
Factotum
-
Arcane dilettante (1 spell)
While we may find more worth saving our inspiration for bonuses to our skill checks most of the time, the wizard list has varied enough options that some things will come in handy.
5
Factotum
-
Brains over brawn, cunning defense
We have an effective +3 to all our strength/dex-based skills here, which is nothing to scoff at. Even if we don't take 10, our SoH check is now an automatic 21. We also get access to Wizard level 1 spells, so we have more utility (or raw firepower from casting things like Power Word Pain).
6
Trapsmith
Master Pickpocket
Booby traps (simple), master disarmer, trap sense +1
We no longer take AOOs for trying to steal in-combat. Additionally, the check to free-action steal is lessened. As we would be rushed by attempting a free-action SoH, we may not be able to take 10; our effective bonus is +21 (masterwork tool, synergy, 9 ranks, Skill Focus, +2 dex, +3 int), so our check range will be 22-41. If we fail, the DC will rise from 30 to 40, so technically there is no downside to attempting NI free-action checks to take 20 NI times, steal all their items, and SoH them onto our person to free up our hands again. Will a reasonable DM allow NI SoH checks? Probably not, but where they draw the line will vary. At worst: we can steal two items per round with a reasonable chance of success. The RAW viability of taking NI checks might be enough to convince a DM to let you take 10 on your free-action check too, as are you really rushed if you're only making 2 checks instead of 100? Taking 10, we hit an automatic 31, so we'd be golden as long as no one noticed us.
Now, in addition to stealing all their items that aren't actively being held, we can set up tripwires from underground to do various things based on 1/2 our trapmaking check (taking 10, the check is a 24). That means we can set up alarms around camp (reflex 1/2 check), a crossbows to fire (attack bonus 1/2 check), or a tripwire to literally trip (bonus is 1/2 check). The drop trap would probably require us to leave the ground to suspend the object from the ceiling, although arguably you might be able to use complicated mechanics to make a sling of sorts to launch the object into the air to fall on the target. Setting up these tripwires in between the enemy's feet should mean they trigger on any movement on their part.
Lastly, we start accruing level 1 spells - some of which are touch spells we can even apply from underground. Notably, we can use Fox's Cunning and Cat's Grace, letting us pump our slight of hand by 2 - 4, bringing us up to as much as a +25.
7
Trapsmith
-
Arrow proof, quick fingers
-
8
Trapsmith
-
Booby traps (advanced), unweave, trap sense +2
Now our traps key off of our TOTAL check rather than 1/2 our check (or easily a 27 at this level).
9
Trapsmith
Practiced Spellcaster
Dance through danger, spell proof
With Cat's Grace and Fox's Cunning active, we can now hit an automatic 30 without taking 10; at long last, that should spell an automatic success to free-action steal things until they notice our attempts.
10
Mindbender
-
Telepathy
We have the caster level to enter Mindbender and, ironically, we also have access to Charm Person through our Factotum levels. Now we gain an innate means to communicate the location of our traps with our allies.
11+
Exemplar
Bonus: Blind-Fight, Deft Hands, Skill Focus: Craft (Trapmaking). General: Varies. Samples include Extraordinary Trapsmith, Quick Reconnoiter, Skill Focus: Search
Sundry
We gain a lot of bonuses to skills here. We also gain Skill Mastery, letting us take 10 on our SoH checks even when making free actions to hit the DC40 to steal from those who are watching us do it. We also gain charisma to fortitude, intelligence to reflex and initiative, and sundry other modes to use our skills, and round out our 20 levels eligible for epic progression.
Any and all feedback very much appreciated!
Edit: It occurs to me that Dragonborn of Bahamut would strip off the human bonus feat, so we need to add in a level of Half-Elf Paragon at level 1 or else sacrifice the Skill Focus: Sleight of Hand. I'll have to reflect on this when I find the time.
An old optimization trick I've used in the past (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24896551&postcount=1) is take an animal or humanoid, throw on the Telthor template (Unapproachable East) for LA+2. Then, add the Dragonborn of Bahamut (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1) (LA0) template to strip away the special qualities of the Telthor template. That leaves you with the incorporeal subtype and all the benefits that entails.
As an incorporeal creature, you are perfectly silent and can enter into corporeal objects (such as the walls or floor). This blocks line of sight and line of effect to most enemies, and so renders you undetectable to 90% of detection modes in 3.5. Most enemies will also lack the means to attack you or meaningfully interact with you. In turn, enemies have total concealment from you, limiting the ways you can interact with them; additionally, you are precluded from interacting with corporeal objects and creatures, which complicates gameplay. I wanted to capitalize on some of the strengths of the incorporeal subtype and minimize the drawbacks to develop a unique niche for gameplay.
In order to overcome some of the limitations of the incorporeal subtype, one helpful feat is Ghostly Grasp (Libris Mortis) which reads:
You can handle corporeal objects even while incorporeal.
Prerequisite: Cha 15, incorporeal subtype.
Benefit: You can wear, wield, and otherwise use corporeal items as though you were not incorporeal.
Special: Without this feat, an incorporeal creature can only wear or wield items that have the ghost touch special ability.
With the addition of the feat, the incorporeal creature can grasp corporeal items. Once they do so, the items become incorporeal, as do all items held or carried by incorporeal creatures. This allows the character to meaningfully interact with the world. It also, to my eye, lends itself immediately to a thief-style character; the character can glide past mundane defenses, load up on treasure (that becomes incorporeal with it), then float away. At low levels, the incorporeal creature can use bows to fight (as the arrows or bolts become corporeal once fired); at marginally higher levels, the incorporeal creature can use serren weapons or ghost touch weapons to engage in combat should they choose to.
However, for our purposes, we are less concerned with weapons and more concerned with other items. The City of Stormreach has another interesting feat: Master Pickpocket.
In Stormreach, there are thieves and there are masters of the craft. You fall into the latter category. You can steal anything from anyone at any time.
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Sleight of Hand 8 ranks.
Benefit: Your mastery of Sleight of Hand allows you to steal an object from an adjacent opponent in combat as a standard action without provoking attacks of opportunity. You can take anything the character has on his or her person provided it is not held in hand. If you are in a grapple, you gain a +4 bonus on the attempt. In addition, when you make a Sleight of Hand check as a free action, you take a –10 penalty rather than a –20 penalty on the attempt.
In addition to removing the attack of opportunity, it also allows us to steal any item a character possesses that isn't currently being held, and it allows us to do so as a free action for an additional +10 to the DC. Since we have Ghostly Grasp, we can interact with other creatures' corporeal gear. Incorporeal creatures can reach out of a solid object to affect creatures in adjacent squares despite initially lacking LoE. Once we use Sleight of Hand to steal an item from an adjacent creature, it should become incorporeal, and we should be able to use Sleight of Hand to free-action hide it away on our person (in our clothes, belt, boots, open satchel, etc), then move to steal an additional item, and so on. This ultimately results in a character walking along, minding their own business, before most or all of their gear vanishes from their person. This can be used in combat, too, to aid our allies. Spellcaster component pouches and focuses are certainly fair game.
Another issue an incorporeal creature camping in the floor or walls is sure to run into is: it's very dark in there. It will quickly become difficult to keep track of what is going on outside your nest. One of the few detection modes that ignores line of effect is the listen skill; it allows you to pinpoint enemies' locations with a high enough check. One feat that assists greatly with this: the PHBII's Keen-Eared Scout.
Your sharp sense of hearing allows you to determine much more about your surroundings.
Prerequisite: Alertness (PH) (or) , Skill Focus (PH) (Listen) , Listen 6 ranks,
Benefit:When you make a Listen check, you might learn more than normal about a source of noise.
If you beat the Listen DC by 5 or more, you determine the size, speed, and direction of the source of noise.
If you beat the DC by 10 or more, you determine the precise, current position of the creature or object that caused the sound.
If you beat the DC by 15 or more, you determine the type of armor the creature wears and what it carries, if anything.
If you beat the DC by 20 or more, you learn the creature's type and subtypes.
The information you learn is cumulative. For example, if you got a Listen check result of 35 against a DC of 23, you gain the information for beating the check by 10 and by 5. These benefits apply to both standard and opposed Listen checks.
Also, you gain a +5 bonus on Listen checks to pinpoint invisible creatures.
This effectively lowers the DC to pinpoint an enemy by 15. It also opens up new modes for a successful check, most notably the ability to know everything a creature is wearing and carrying. When I plan builds, as much as I can I like to use every part of the animal (so to speak), and this should allow us to pick our marks instead of just randomly stealing everything someone has.
The combination of incorporeality and these three feats obviously creates an effective thief, but what can an incorporeal creature do when they are not in combat? Bardic music can bypass line of effect, but we've already done that. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24896551&postcount=1) We can make melee attacks into the adjoining square (and, as our enemy doesn't have line of effect to us for the first strike, we can use Iaijutsu Focus once per round (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25276468&postcount=1)). We can use Flyby Attack to emerge from safety, make an attack, and descend again (while avoiding all the prerequisites for Spring Attack). However, in this case, I thought it would be synergistic to lean into a different direction: traps!
The Trapsmith can (surprisingly enough) set up a variety of traps. Setting up a trap is a full-round action that doesn't trigger attacks of opportunity, so our incorporeal thief should be able to reach up into and around opponents' squares to litter the field with tripwires, giving our character a reasonable effective means to attack and hinder foes. Best of all: we can do all of this without leaving the ground and opening us up to our enemies. In addition to allowing us more in-combat options, specializing in traps also enables us with regard to disabling traps, allowing us to effectively scout ahead. Trapsmith also gains a number of useful spells much earlier than other classes.
And so, without any further ado, here is the character in question:
Dragonborn
Telthor
Human
Stat
Array
After Racial/ Template Modifiers
4th
8th
12th
16th
20th
Final
Str
8
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Dex
17
15
-
-
-
-
+1
16
Con
8
10
-
-
-
-
-
10
Int
16
16
+1
+1
+1
+1
-
20
Wis
9
9
-
-
-
-
-
9
Cha
15
15
-
-
-
-
-
15
HD
Class
Feats
Features
Notes
1
Factotum
Skill Focus: SoH, Ghostly Grasp
Inspiration, cunning insight, cunning knowledge, trapfinding
With a 15 in dex and a masterwork tool, we can have an automatic 21 on SoH checks if we take 10. This isn't useful in combat, as it draws AoOs, but it is enough to steal items one at a time. Being incorporeal lets us sense creatures when they're in the next square over, so in settlements, we can become a thief from level 1. Cunning Knowledge lets us pump our skills for an especially tricky SoH target if we fail to steal something, or to a disable device check on a particularly difficult trap we find with Trapfinding. We essentially function as a scout at this level. For combat, apart from stealing, we can use a bow or crossbow to some effect, although that requires us to leave the underground. The arrows we use become corporeal when shot, letting us contribute in at least some capacity.
2
Human Paragon
-
Adaptive learning
At this level, we can technically afford a serren elvencraft bow which, while it can be used as a bow, can also be used as a beating stick with no penalty, allowing us to physically attack our foes to contribute to combat. Now, if we desire, we can begin camping out underground full-time while still earning experience from combat. We don't have the most effective mode to find enemies at this level, but we can still sense creatures' presence above us if we are underground.
3
Human Paragon
Skill Focus: Listen, Keen-Eared Scout
-
Now we can hear the gear and items creatures carry, and pinpoint their location. Our listen check is fairly high; 6 ranks, -1 mod, +2 racial, +2 in an object, +2 masterwork tool, +3 SF, and taking 10 gives us an automatic 24. It's an effective DC of move silently + 5 to pinpoint their location, or move silently +15 to identify their gear, and we can retry with a move action, so we can pretty consistently pinpoint creatures, and retry until we identify their gear. Technically, over about 1 minute, we can take 20, so we'd get that effective 34.
4
Factotum
-
Arcane dilettante (1 spell)
While we may find more worth saving our inspiration for bonuses to our skill checks most of the time, the wizard list has varied enough options that some things will come in handy.
5
Factotum
-
Brains over brawn, cunning defense
We have an effective +3 to all our strength/dex-based skills here, which is nothing to scoff at. Even if we don't take 10, our SoH check is now an automatic 21. We also get access to Wizard level 1 spells, so we have more utility (or raw firepower from casting things like Power Word Pain).
6
Trapsmith
Master Pickpocket
Booby traps (simple), master disarmer, trap sense +1
We no longer take AOOs for trying to steal in-combat. Additionally, the check to free-action steal is lessened. As we would be rushed by attempting a free-action SoH, we may not be able to take 10; our effective bonus is +21 (masterwork tool, synergy, 9 ranks, Skill Focus, +2 dex, +3 int), so our check range will be 22-41. If we fail, the DC will rise from 30 to 40, so technically there is no downside to attempting NI free-action checks to take 20 NI times, steal all their items, and SoH them onto our person to free up our hands again. Will a reasonable DM allow NI SoH checks? Probably not, but where they draw the line will vary. At worst: we can steal two items per round with a reasonable chance of success. The RAW viability of taking NI checks might be enough to convince a DM to let you take 10 on your free-action check too, as are you really rushed if you're only making 2 checks instead of 100? Taking 10, we hit an automatic 31, so we'd be golden as long as no one noticed us.
Now, in addition to stealing all their items that aren't actively being held, we can set up tripwires from underground to do various things based on 1/2 our trapmaking check (taking 10, the check is a 24). That means we can set up alarms around camp (reflex 1/2 check), a crossbows to fire (attack bonus 1/2 check), or a tripwire to literally trip (bonus is 1/2 check). The drop trap would probably require us to leave the ground to suspend the object from the ceiling, although arguably you might be able to use complicated mechanics to make a sling of sorts to launch the object into the air to fall on the target. Setting up these tripwires in between the enemy's feet should mean they trigger on any movement on their part.
Lastly, we start accruing level 1 spells - some of which are touch spells we can even apply from underground. Notably, we can use Fox's Cunning and Cat's Grace, letting us pump our slight of hand by 2 - 4, bringing us up to as much as a +25.
7
Trapsmith
-
Arrow proof, quick fingers
-
8
Trapsmith
-
Booby traps (advanced), unweave, trap sense +2
Now our traps key off of our TOTAL check rather than 1/2 our check (or easily a 27 at this level).
9
Trapsmith
Practiced Spellcaster
Dance through danger, spell proof
With Cat's Grace and Fox's Cunning active, we can now hit an automatic 30 without taking 10; at long last, that should spell an automatic success to free-action steal things until they notice our attempts.
10
Mindbender
-
Telepathy
We have the caster level to enter Mindbender and, ironically, we also have access to Charm Person through our Factotum levels. Now we gain an innate means to communicate the location of our traps with our allies.
11+
Exemplar
Bonus: Blind-Fight, Deft Hands, Skill Focus: Craft (Trapmaking). General: Varies. Samples include Extraordinary Trapsmith, Quick Reconnoiter, Skill Focus: Search
Sundry
We gain a lot of bonuses to skills here. We also gain Skill Mastery, letting us take 10 on our SoH checks even when making free actions to hit the DC40 to steal from those who are watching us do it. We also gain charisma to fortitude, intelligence to reflex and initiative, and sundry other modes to use our skills, and round out our 20 levels eligible for epic progression.
Any and all feedback very much appreciated!
Edit: It occurs to me that Dragonborn of Bahamut would strip off the human bonus feat, so we need to add in a level of Half-Elf Paragon at level 1 or else sacrifice the Skill Focus: Sleight of Hand. I'll have to reflect on this when I find the time.